Debates of March 13th, 2002

Right Honourable Herb Gray

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, this is one of those very rare days in this place where we amaze Canadians by setting aside our partisan differences to offer a singular tribute to a singular man of this honourable House, someone who has earned the respect and affection of all members, a true patriot, a legend: the Right Hon. Herb Gray.

His record speaks for itself: 13 straight times elected a member of parliament; over 14,000 straight days as an MP; and a record for consecutive years of service. He served in nine cabinet posts. He served as leader of the opposition. He served in my cabinet with great distinction as leader of the government in the House, as solicitor general and as deputy prime minister.

Figures and titles, however, do not do proper justice to all that Herb Gray has represented for the Liberal Party, for the entire country, for our government, for this House and for myself personally.

I remember back to my arrival in the House in 1963, when not much French was spoken here. Herb, however, was one of the few who made an effort to speak French. He took the trouble to reach out to those of us who did not speak English.

We moved up through cabinet together. We went through the political good times, and there were many, and the bad times together.

When things were bad, his unfailing instinct came to the forefront. He was the very incarnation of coolness and a source of wise counsel. He was the voice of the Liberal Party's conscience, a truly progressive spirit with a firm conviction that government could make an active contribution to improving society.

He was one of the founders and most staunch defenders of our social programs. Thanks to his leadership during a very difficult period, the auto industry remains today one of the pillars of Canada's prosperity.

At a time when it is said that political allegiances are no longer very solid, Herb Gray's career is all the more impressive.

His relationship with the people of Windsor West has been extraordinary, and most indicative of his devotion to his riding. What distinguishes the man more than anything else, however, is his attachment to the House of Commons, its rules and its traditions.

He was a tough partisan fighter, and I considered it a privilege to have fought by his side. One of the greatest pleasures of my time in the House was to watch him perform in question period, to watch the “Gray” fog roll in and to see him defeat attack after attack. For me he always will be the master of the forum. Indeed, I would like to ask him to name his favourite answer, but I fear that he will reject the premise of my question.

Herb was a tough fighter but he was also fair, always respected by his opponents and he respected them too. Despite our differences, he recognized that we were all in the business of the people. We are all committed to public service and this perspective has earned him the respect of all parties, a respect that could not be more eloquently expressed than by this celebration today.

Herb Gray has been a public servant in the truest and the best sense and is more than worthy of the highest title that can be given to public office holders in Canada, that of right honourable. It has been an honour for me to serve with him in opposition and in government. We all admire him and we will miss him a lot. However we also know that he will continue to serve the people of Canada with his customary dedication with the International Joint Commission.

Come what may, I know that all members will join me when I say, Herb, our friend, this House will always be your home.

[John Reynolds, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, it is not only as Leader of the Opposition but as one of the class of 72 who are still in the House that I am pleased to be here today to honour Herb Gray. I know we do not usually mention this, but on an occasion like this it is nice to see in the galleries people like Eugene Whelan, Mitchell Sharp and other people from 1972. It shows the respect we all have for Herb Gray.

I learned of this great honour from the Liberal caucus chairman. When I learned Mr. Gray he was being called before the bar of the House I was a bit alarmed because, as members know, people usually appear before the bar to be admonished by the Chair. I could not imagine what Herb could have done to deserve such an admonishment from the Speaker.

However I then thought of a few reasons. I had the idea of rotating certain members into the chair to share the admonishment because we cannot let you have all the fun, Mr. Speaker.

Here are my suggested categories for the admonishments and the most appropriate members to carry them out. First, the right hon. gentleman could be admonished for his ministerial performance. As minister, Herb Gray received thousands of questions from the opposition that were carefully crafted and rehearsed. He never actually answered a single one. As Leader of the Opposition I would be the appropriate admonisher for this category.

Second, Herb Gray could be admonished as the member for Windsor West. For 40 years he hogged the riding, never sharing it with any of his friends on this side of the House. He never understood that in politics change is healthy. To take the chair for this category I recommend the leader of the NDP. For the majority of elections from 1962 to 2000 her party played the role of bridesmaid in Windsor West and never the bride.

Third, Herb Gray could be admonished for his incredible loyalty to his constituents, his party and his leader. Does he not know this kind of behaviour is no longer in vogue? No one does it any more. Choosing the appropriate candidate to take the chair for this category proved most difficult. There were so many members to choose from that I decided to put the decision to an expert panel: the DRC. The DRC, to be known as the academy for this purpose, struggled with its choice but finally came up with a candidate. As I look at all the hopeful faces in the House it is unfortunate the academy could only choose one member. The lucky winner to take the chair to admonish Herb Gray for his loyalty is the hon. member for Richmond.

Fourth, Mr. Gray could be admonished for promoting a nickname. The recommendation for this category came from heaven. It was an e-mail from the late Mel Torme who raised a copyright issue with our right hon. guest. As we all know, Mr. Torme's vocal talents earned him the nickname the velvet fog. There appears to be concern in the Torme camp that there is potential for confusion and thus copyright infringement with respect to our guest's promotion of the name the Gray fog. Mr. Speaker, the admonishment to cease and desist advocating fog in any way should come directly from you given the clarity and brightness of your rulings and answers.

All kidding aside, the official opposition is honoured to pay tribute to the Right Hon. Herb Gray who competently served the House, his constituents and his country with dignity and grace. He was a fierce opponent in the House but always a gentleman. We wish Herb and his family well in their life after parliament.

There is one thing I regret. I am sorry I will never get a chance to look across at the opposite benches, see Herb standing there and ask him a question. I wanted to look him in the eye and tell him I did not agree with the premise of his question.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is not every day that the House of Commons has the special opportunity to highlight the work of one of its members and his departure from this House. Today, as we pay tribute to Herb Gray, we have such an opportunity.

The man who was the member for Windsor West for nearly 40 years was certainly a pillar for all of the prime ministers that he served. By sitting in the House of Commons uninterrupted since 1963 he has become one of the most experienced parliamentarians in Canada. In addition, he has held various cabinet positions over the years and even became the deputy prime minister in 1997.

Those who decided, election after election, to put their trust in him to represent them in this House have no doubt already had the opportunity to express their feelings to Mr. Gray. Today, it is as colleagues that we will share our feelings with him.

The former deputy prime minister and I do not share the same political convictions. This will not come as a surprise to anybody, nor will it surprise Mr. Gray if I mention it. However, he may be surprised to hear me say that his 40 years of service in this House do deserve to be acknowledged.

Political life is demanding; it is difficult for us, but also for our close ones. Mr. Gray could surely tell us about it. However I am convinced that if we asked him what he remembers from all his years in government, and also in opposition, he might tell us about democracy, about his responsibilities as a member of parliament and a minister, or about the importance of fulfilling one's duties to the best of one's knowledge and skills.

Our duties as parliamentarians are often criticized and misunderstood. Yet they are essential to the democratic life of our societies. I hope that all these years as a parliamentarian will help Mr. Gray stress the importance of the job that he did, so that our fellow citizens can better understand the work that we do here collectively.

Mr. Gray has left the hectic and somewhat crazy life that we live when we are in the limelight. He should be able to enjoy his new life, even though his departure from the House of Commons does not necessarily mean that he is retiring from active life. I wish his family and friends the opportunity to spend more time with him.

The former deputy prime minister was a difficult adversary for us. On behalf of my Bloc Quebecois colleagues, I salute that adversary. I am convinced that Mr. Gray will miss the House of Commons, and he might even miss the questions put to him by Bloc Quebecois members. Then again, he might also tell me that the premise of my comment is false, that it is not just his sense of duty that kept him here for so long, but also the pleasure and the satisfaction that he derived from representing his constituents and sitting in cabinet.

Mr. Gray, in all friendship, I wish you good luck in this new stage of your career and your life.

[Lorne Nystrom, NDP, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I have served along with Mr. Gray since I arrived here in 1968 when he was only in his 6th year in parliament. On behalf of our caucus I am proud to rise and pay tribute to a great Canadian and great parliamentarian, the Right Hon. Herb Gray.

Mr. Gray is the third longest serving member of parliament in the history of our country. He has served with eight prime ministers and politically outlived all but one of them. He was a great parliamentarian. He was a model public servant. He was at the same time intensely political. He has a mastery of our procedure and a mastery of the House of Commons.

He was elected in 1962. Re-elected 12 times in a row, he has been an MP, minister, leader of the opposition, minister again and, finally, deputy prime minister of Canada.

Now he is entering a new incarnation as chair of the International Joint Commission. He is a veritable force of nature.

When I reflect on Herb Gray whom I have known well since 1968 I have in mind four images and four different Herbs. First, there is Herb the parliamentarian, the Gray fog. He was a master at frustrating opposition questions. Mr. Gray, those of us in opposition look forward to the day when we are on the government side responding to questions from opposition Liberal MPs and saying we reject the premise of the hon. member's question.

Second, I think of Herb the comeback kid. He was in cabinet. He was later relieved of his cabinet duties. He later came back to cabinet. He was also the comeback kid in terms of health. He came back from a serious illness and is now fit and trim. Both these events are a tribute to his strength, perseverance and determination.

Third, I remember Herbmania, the phenomenon that scared the member from Shawinigan about 11 or 12 years ago. In 1990 as the then leader of the opposition Mr. Gray made a famous self-deprecating speech at the press gallery dinner during the course of a Liberal leadership campaign. The speech sparked an instant draft Herb campaign and chants of Herb, Herb, Herb. His response to the draft campaign was that if he ran he would put a paper hanger on every Liberal delegate's hotel door that read “Do not disturb, I'm with Herb”. He just told me he should have run.

Fourth, I think of Herb Gray's personal side. I think of disco Herb, the king of rock and roll. He kept this side of his personality a bit of a secret for a long time but his love of rock and roll and of visiting discos soon became legendary around Ottawa and Windsor. He also had a sense of humour. Mind you, being a member of the Liberal government requires a sense of humour.

We are sorry to see him go. We wish him well. We offer well wishes to his wife Sharon Sholzberg-Gray who is a strong advocate of public health care. We wish his children and family well.

I will conclude by quoting the immortal words of Mr. Gray's fellow rocker, the great Canadian entertainer Neil Young who sang “Keep on rockin' in the free world”.

Mr. Gray, I wish you good health and good luck. Au revoir.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to join in the tributes to the Right Hon. Herb Gray, a man respected by all parties in this House. I regard him as a sort of companion in charisma. My colleague from Saskatchewan noticed that rarest of occurrences: Herb Gray actually smiled at that line.

I have to say this. He is also a man of some precision and he would know that my colleague from Saskatchewan made a slight error in his comments. Mr. Gray has outlasted all but two of the prime ministers with whom he has worked. Of course, as I have reason to know, I say to the Prime Minister that there is no reason to think he will not be back.

I personally am delighted that he has finally been called to the bar of the House. There were several times during his parliamentary career when I tried to get him called there, but he was always too cagey for that.

Since we are making new precedents in the House today, Sir, it might be appropriate to retire the phrase for which Herb Gray was so well known. I am sure that Mr. Speaker could find unanimous consent in the House if he would declare as unparliamentary language the phrase “I reject the premise of the hon. member's question”.

I am glad that the government has found a way for the House to pay tribute to Herb Gray's nearly 40 years of outstanding service to our country. Mr. Gray has seen many changes in this House. He has seen many changes in this country since his first election.

He was part of the government that brought in the new Canadian flag. He was here when the Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism reported. He saw the Canada pension plan created, the auto pact signed. It is only a rumour that he was here when the railway was built, but he was here for the patriation of the constitution and the introduction of the charter of rights and freedoms.

Mr. Gray and I often disagreed. That is the nature of democracy. He fought my party on free trade. We disagreed on foreign investment rules. We disagreed on the GST.

Although we have opposed each other on important issues, no one on this side of the House will ever question or ever debate Herb Gray's love of his country. His belief in the Canadian dream of working hard to create a better life and a better country has characterized his service to Canada.

We will miss Herb Gray's wisdom greatly. The legacy he leaves us is his integrity, his strength of character, his great respect, and his understanding of the entity known as the House of Commons. These are qualities to which any parliamentarian should aspire.

We pay tribute to Mr. Gray's tireless work. We wish him and his wife, Sharon Sholzberg Gray, and his children much happiness and success in their future endeavours.

I said earlier this year that Herb Gray was effective in both government and opposition and that he was the steady centre of his party in good times and in turbulence. He will be remembered for his dedication to this House as the institution that is the very foundation of our democracy. Ten years ago, on the occasion of his 30th anniversary, he said in this House:

Standing here, speaking in this marvellous place, in spite of its problems, is still the focal point to which Canadians look when it comes to the protection and enhancement of their liberties and well-being. May it always be such.

We join in wishing Herb Gray the greatest success as chair of the International Joint Commission. We thank him for years of work on behalf of Canada. We will continue his work to ensure that the House of Commons remains the institution that preserves and enhances the liberties and well-being of Canadians. Thank you, Herb Gray.

[The Speaker]

It is with great pleasure that I invite the Right Hon. Herb Gray to address the House.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I must begin by saying that today is an exception to my usual practice. I have to tell you I accept the premise of each and every word spoken in the House today.

I want to thank the House most sincerely for this unique honour bestowed upon me today in allowing me to be in the House of Commons when it is in session, inside the bar of the House, and to be able to speak even though I am no longer a member.

I must say that I am delighted that none of the people who have spoken have ever had to join me outside the bar of the House for words spoken or not spoken but, as I said, I appreciate their remarks very much and I appreciate very much the honour bestowed upon me.

I have to thank the constituents of Windsor West, the people who elected me 13 times in a row, the people who saw something in me beyond the fact that I was the standard bearer for a party and a leader. I have to thank the hundreds and hundreds of people who came forward to work with me to help me get elected and re-elected, people young and old, new people who were not around when I first ran only yesterday.

I must also say that I owe so much to my family for their love and support, particularly my wife and children, because what they have done has made this record of achievement possible.

I have to say that my family life was not interrupted or turned aside by my political life. It actually grew out of my political life. It was inspired by my political life.

I have to mention just one evidence of this, and that was only yesterday in 1964. I met the lady who was to become my wife at a young Liberal Party reception in room 209 of the West Block.

I want to propose here today, and perhaps I can make a formal motion since I am already inside the bar of the House, that the commissioners of internal economy agree to put a plaque on the wall of room 209 of the West Block to mark and recognize that historic occasion because, as my wife always said, things started happening for me only after we got married.

I want to go on to thank the people I worked with in the Liberal caucus and the Liberal Party. They have not only been colleagues but friends. I also want to recognize the friendship of people on the opposition side of the House. I want to thank them particularly for giving me such wonderful raw material to use in my answers and my speeches.

They were a great help to me in my efforts to support the government. The Bloc Quebecois, for example, supported Canadian institutions most actively, and I must thank them before I leave.

I cannot give examples of what I am talking about in terms of raw material, but actually it is only a rumour that I did not answer the questions. I answered them but the opposition parties were not willing to listen.

I want to thank the Liberal prime ministers who enabled me to work on behalf of my constituents and on behalf of all Canadians as a member of their cabinets. I want to pay special tribute to the Prime Minister, the member from Shawinigan, for asking me to become the first full time deputy prime minister and allowing me to give meaning and substance to something that before was only a title added on to another responsibility.

I am very proud of the fact that because of the support from the Prime Minister in my giving meaning and substance to the position when my successor was announced it was considered and is a great promotion.

I am also proud of the fact that I occupied a premier parliamentary post as leader of the opposition. I thank my colleagues of that day, for example the current Liberal caucus chairman and the Right Hon. John Turner, for that. I also have to thank the Governor General for the rare distinction of being named the right honourable. Being named the right honourable in our system is quite marvellous.

I want to say that in serving as leader of the opposition, in serving as the first full time deputy prime minister, I did so as someone who is the first generation of his immediate family to be born in Canada. My parents came to this country from Eastern Europe, from Belarus, as Jewish immigrants in search of freedoms and opportunities not available to them in the land of their birth. They found those opportunities here. Like so many other families who form part of our great Canadian family, they made a wonderful contribution and enabled me to serve my community and my country in the House of Commons and in the Government of Canada in so many wonderful ways.

I mention this not in any vain sense but only because it indicates something of the story of Canada. My story is also the story of millions of other people who make up the story of Canada. The history of my family is part of the history of those who make up the great Canadian family building together what so far is the only truly successful multicultural and pluralistic country in the world. We have done this together. We have been building what Sir Wilfrid Laurier said 100 years ago was to be a Canada united in its diversity.

Each of us brings our respective heritage to add and form part of the great Canadian heritage. My Jewish heritage has inspired me in my work as a member of parliament and as a minister. I have always been inspired by the words of the Hebrew prophets when they called out for us to do judgment and justice, when they called out for us to do judgment for the afflicted and the needy.

These are part of what has kept me so interested and involved and committed in parliamentary and public life for all these years. In working in the House of Commons with all of you and others who are not here, I want to say that this has meant that we together are building the framework for the kind of country we want, a country where individual initiative counts but is partnered with the organized community through government bringing forward values of concern and compassion.

One thousand years ago a great Jewish sage said in the book of the Talmud, Pirke Aboth: Sayings of the Fathers, “Pray for the welfare of the government because without it, men would swallow each other alive”. These wise words are relevant today. These words are also relevant in terms of our parliamentary institutions and how they form part of government today.

There are people who say that the House of Commons is no longer relevant and meaningful. I do not agree with them. One example for me to make my point is to go back to when we first took office in 1993 and we set up the present prebudget process giving a new meaning to consultation in the key part of the work of the House of Commons and parliament.

There are those who would say that things are not getting done, that things take too long. Pierre Elliott Trudeau said:

A country, after all, is not something you build as the pharaohs built the pyramids, and leave standing there to defy eternity. A country is something that is built every day out of certain basic shared values.

Pierre Elliott Trudeau also said:

--if the Canadian nation must survive, it will only survive in mutual respect and in love for one another.Each of you, each of us, must work toward that goal with our every fibre in the reality of our daily lives.

Mr. Speaker, if our parliamentary institutions, in particular this House of Commons, is to be relevant and to have meaning, then I call upon you to do your work in the spirit of the words of Sir Wilfrid Laurier when in a parliamentary debate he said “So long as I have a position in this House, so long as I occupy the position I do now, whenever it shall become my duty to take a stand on any question whatsoever, that stand I will take upon grounds that can appeal to the consciences of all, upon grounds which can be occupied by all who love justice, freedom and toleration”.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the members of this House through their applause show that those words ring as true today as they did when they were spoken by Laurier almost 100 years ago.

I have already gone on to another challenge as chair of the International Joint Commission.

I am now the chair of the International Joint Commission, which deals with the important issues that have interested me throughout my years of public life.

Yes, the International Joint Commission deals with great issues and questions that have concerned me throughout my public career: the relations between Canada and the United States; the management of our shared border from the Pacific to the Atlantic; the preservation and quality of the waters forming that border and across that border; the elimination of what is threatening our future and those of our children, transboundary air and water pollution.

We are rightfully focusing on winning the fight against terrorism, but we are doing it for reasons of maintaining and extending our freedom and that of other people in the world and for reasons of maintaining, strengthening and preserving the quality of life for ourselves and our grandchildren. This means putting a priority on the improvement, the strengthening of our human and natural environment.

I want to say by way of conclusion that I am very pleased to have left this wonderful place at a time when my skills are strong and evident, and I thank God for this, so that I can apply them in the challenges that I have mentioned and in the spirit of the words of Tennyson in his great poem Ulysses when he said:

How dull it is to pause, to make an end, to rust unburnished, not to shine in use! Some work of noble note may yet be done.

I hope to have that opportunity for you and all Canadians. I conclude with further words of Tennyson from his great poem, Ulysses. He said:

I am a part of all that I have met, Though much is taken, much abides; That which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, ...strong in will, To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

I urge all of you to continue your work here in this House and with all Canadians so that together you will strive to seek, to find, and not to yield in building an even better Canada in a much better and peaceful world.

Thank you very much, merci beaucoup.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear.

[The Speaker]

On behalf of the House, I wish to thank the Right Hon. Herb Gray.

I will not be adding my own good wishes to those already presented here in the Chamber since I will have an opportunity to take part in the continuation of the celebration of Mr. Gray's career at the reception in the railway committee room that will follow immediately.

I invite all members to join us.

Business of the House

[The Speaker]

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 81(14) to inform the House that the motion to be considered tomorrow during consideration of the business of supply is as follows:

That in the opinion of this House, the principles and provisions of the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement (FTA) and the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), including their dispute resolution mechanisms, should be fully applied to trade in softwood lumber and, it urges the government not to accept any negotiated settlement of the current softwood lumber dispute outside of the FTA and the NAFTA unless it guarantees free and unfettered access to the U.S. market, and includes dispute resolution mechanisms capable of overriding domestic trade measures to resolve future disputes.

Copies of the motion are available at the table.

Government Response to Petitions

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36(8) I have the honour to table, in both official languages, the government's response to one petition.

Interparliamentary Delegations

[Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral, Bloc, Laval Centre, QC]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 34(1), I have the honour to table in the House, in both official languages, the report of the Canada-France Interparliamentary Association, following its 33rd annual meeting, held in Toronto and in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, from September 3 to 10, 2001.

[Carolyn Parrish, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 34(1) I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the 11th report of the Canadian NATO Parliamentary Association, which represented Canada at the meeting of the Defence and Security Committee of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly held in Washington, D.C. and Tampa from January 27 to February 2.

Allotted Day

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I seek the unanimous consent of the House to adopt the following motion. I move:

That, notwithstanding any ruling of the Chair, and recognizing the importance of maintaining the integrity of the supply process, the party allotment of opposition motions on allotted days, and their votable status during a normal supply year beginning July 1 and ending June 30, be as follows: the Canadian Alliance shall be allotted 11 days total with no more than eight being allowed to come to a vote; the Bloc Quebecois shall be allotted six days in total with no more than four being allowed to come to a vote; the New Democratic Party shall be allotted two days in total with no more than one being allowed to come to a vote; and the Progressive Conservative Democratic Representative caucus shall be allotted two days in total with no more than one being allowed to come to a vote.

[The Speaker]

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to introduce this motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker]

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

Petitions

[Rose-Marie Ur, Liberal, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36 I wish to present these petitions on behalf of constituents living in Lambton--Kent--Middlesex. The petitioners call upon parliament to take action by the end of this calendar year to monitor scenes of violence in movies, television and video games.

[John Herron, Progressive Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present a petition today on behalf of the constituents of the riding I represent of Fundy--Royal. This petition has been duly certified by the House.

The petition calls upon the House of Commons, through Transport Canada and VIA Rail, to restore passenger train service linking Saint John and Fredericton, westward through that great town of McAdam, New Brunswick, where my dad is from, through Sherbrooke to Montreal and east through Moncton to Halifax.

The petitioners notes that this train link, which was discontinued in 1994, had 66% occupancy. Options for public transportation should be the focus of government attention, and it is my pleasure to present this petition at this time.

Questions Passed as Orders for Returns

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, if Question No. 104 could be made an order for return, the return would be tabled immediately.

[The Speaker]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.