Madam Speaker, first of all, I congratulate our colleague on his excellent initiative. We are aware of his sensitivity to these issues. Furthermore, I think that all private members' motions should be made votable. When a member takes the trouble to put forward a motion, we should have the responsibility as parliamentarians to express our views through a vote. I regret that that will not be the case for this motion.
I believe, however, that certain problems of law may arise. If I recall my criminal law correctly, for an accused to be sentenced or for someone to be charged with first degree murder, the supreme court and, before it, various provincial appeal courts, have said that two conditions must be met.
These two conditions are the following: there must be an actus reus , i.e. there must have been an action; and most important of all—I believe that the parliamentary secretary referred to this—there must be mens rea . Mens rea is very important in criminal law; it is the most difficult evidence to prove; it has to do with intent, state of mind, premeditation, plotting and real intent.
In the case of criminal law, there is a high degree of difficulty associated with proving this before a court of law. It is not the same as challenging the provisions of the civil code. In our legal system, criminal law is undoubtedly the most difficult, because proof is not established according to the likelihood of events. It is proof beyond any doubt. The crown attorney, or the defence, must prove to the court that the person set the fire with the firm, premeditated, specific intention of killing a firefighter.
I submit to our colleague that this poses a difficulty in law. The link between a fire being set and someone dying is not the same as when a police officer is killed during a chase. The link is much less direct in the case of a fire being set and someone dying as a result. If the criminal code is amended as requested by our colleague, this is a difficulty that will be encountered before a court of law.
Obviously, no one thinks that it is less tragic, less of a loss, from the human point of view, to lose someone in a fire rather than to an attack in the process of carrying out law enforcement duties at the scene of a crime. No one thinks that. We cannot, however, completely ignore the charter of rights, particularly what the courts have had to say on this.
I would remind hon. members that there is a legal difficulty here. There must be mens rea , or guilty intent. It is extremely difficult to demonstrate this before the courts; it is possible, but this is a concept that has been very clearly defined by the supreme court and the various courts of justice. Then there must also be actus reus , a Latin expression meaning commission of the act of which one is being accused. This is the first reality.
The objective of our hon. colleague's motion is understandable: to dissuade arsonists from setting fires that may endanger the safety and well-being of firefighters. I believe that all parties in the House can agree with such an objective. I wonder if there ought not to be provisions in the criminal code to make this type of behaviour an aggravating circumstance. Not that it should be considered first degree murder but that it not be considered merely manslaughter either.
There are certain provisions to that effect in the criminal code. For example, in 1995, the government amended the criminal code, and the House passed legislation on heinous crimes, which people had been calling for for several years.
This means that the criminal code provides for harsher penalties for certain crimes under what is called aggravating circumstances. And when dealing with such a crime, a judge has no choice but to take that into account, because penalties in the criminal code are rarely a question of math. There is always some discretion left to the judge in imposing a sentence and, of course, there are submissions on sentencing made by the lawyers.
Should our colleague not engage in a dialogue not only with the members of the justice committee, but also with firefighters and all those concerned with this issue, to determine whether the aggravating circumstances provision could be used to discourage people from committing this type of crime? That was my second point.
Again, all members who bring forward motions do it because they are sensitive to a particular issue. We do not all have the same interests nor the same degree of sensitivity. However, it is sad that the changes made to Standing Orders of the House of Commons did not include extending the time provided for the consideration of private members' business. I understand that our colleague is disappointed that his motion will not be put to a vote. This is a way for parliamentarians to be more dynamic and be looked upon with greater respect by our fellow citizens.
We know that our institutions are in crisis. We must recognize that the level of confidence in politicians is rather low. Our institutions must work so as to bring our fellow citizens to have more confidence in what we do. For example, we could have decided to eliminate question period on Fridays and use that day for private members' business. We must increase the number of hours allocated to private members' business.
Surely, if only five hours a week are allocated to private members' business, few motions will be votable. I would certainly be in favour, and I am pleading with all the beliefs that my caucus knows me for, of convincing the member for Roberval, who in turn will convince the other House leaders, to rearrange the agenda of the House so that, once a week, all members may see a bill or a motion be subject to a vote. Moreover, the number of hours allocated to private members' business should be increased to allow this profoundly democratic exercise to take place.
The motion before us is important. In Canada, 13 000 fires are set each year. On average, 30% of these are arsons. This is not insignificant in the life of communities. This is a public interest issue and a community safety issue.
However, if our colleague sees his motion die on the order paper, without saying that he worked in vain, the fact remains that the investigation could go much further.
In the case at hand, perhaps the solution is not to consider the death of a firefighter in the line of duty as first degree murder, as suggested to us. Perhaps there are other solutions, such as making it an aggravating circumstance or seeing how it could be considered as more than a simple homicide. However, when the motion dies on the order paper, this obviously does not allow for a further debate.
Is the time allocated to me over, Madam Speaker?