Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the Bloc Quebecois member. She has offered a unique and very important perspective.
She stated in conclusion the importance of not using flags for the purpose of provocation, which I think was a very good point to make. Yet throughout her remarks, the remarks of the mover of the motion and of others present it is quite clear that the sense of pride and symbolism attached to these inanimate objects, these flags, is quite apparent and very much behind the motivation of the mover in bringing forward the motion.
I commend the hon. member for Haldimand--Norfolk--Brant because he is motivated by patriotism and by the desire to safeguard these very important symbols. The flag in particular for a country such as ours is an incredibly important symbol. It is a rallying point. It is a point to which we can refer when we try to encapsulate the entire country.
Just this week the Prime Minister and members paid tribute to the paraolympian athletes. Whether it be in the fields of war or in the athletic exploits of our athletes, the flag allows us to collectively come together under that banner and feel a sense of collective pride.
There is certainly incredible merit in what the hon. member presented. There is merit in sending the very important message that many symbols, and in particular the flag, are not to be desecrated or not to be besmirched.
The history of this flag has been set out. It was presented first to Canadians in 1964 by the government of Lester B. Pearson. Ken Donovan, the assistant parliamentary director for supply for the Government of Canada of the day, had his daughter actually stitch together the very first flag.
I think that would be the making of a good CBC vignette, the vignettes we often see stirring up a sense of pride and historic belonging in the country. The history of the Canadian flag is a very interesting one.
The idea of having a criminal offence attached to the desecration of a flag in particular is one which certainly has merit. However I would direct hon. members to the fact that there are current criminal code provisions. In particular, section 430 of the criminal code speaks to mischief to property which would allow police forces, whether they be RCMP, constabulary or municipal, to lay an offence or a charge if an individual takes a flag and destroys it and it is the property of someone else.
This is the point where there is a bit of a stepping off for me. The fear I have is that there could be, and albeit a somewhat bizarre circumstance, an individual who purchases a flag and decides to destroy it in an inappropriate way. Theoretically by virtue of the bill there is the possibility that the individual could be charged with a criminal offence.
I appreciate the fact that the hon. member has crafted the bill in such a way that it deals with monetary fines rather than any form of imprisonment as a sentence that could be meted out. However there is also the serious attachment of a criminal record which in and of itself is very much a deterrent and a denunciation of a particular activity.
I know that his intent in having this criminalized is to send that message, to deter any individual or any like minded individual from destroying a flag.
I was reminded of another scenario that illustrates my point about making this a criminal offence by my colleague from British Columbia who suggested the scenario we saw played out during the Olympics. The Canadian Olympic women's hockey team was playing the American hockey team and rumours abounded that the women from the United States had placed the Canadian flag on the floor of their locker room, had stamped on it and had done various inappropriate things. Theoretically under the bill those members of team U.S.A. could have been charged with a criminal offence.
The extent to which this law could be exploited, I am afraid, in some ways undercuts the serious issue that the hon. member has highlighted here and brought forward.
There is much merit in preserving and protecting the sanctity of our symbols. The Canadian flag is the epitome of a symbol that we want to enhance, embrace and protect and yet, rather than having this criminalized, the debate could be furthered by perhaps having an opportunity to bring it to a committee to look at how we might bring about the effect that the hon. member seeks to have addressed.
This is not in any way to denigrate or to disparage the hon. member's bill. However, by criminalizing the activity there is some fear that the law itself might be trivialized in the way in which it might be interpreted.
If it is about sending a message and about reminding individuals, particularly youth, I am also concerned that the type of activity that is reprehensible and offensive to many is what we have seen very often played out on television during protests where Canadian flags, flags of other countries and flags of Quebec and other provinces might be burned or destroyed. I would far rather see an item, albeit a very important symbolic item, destroyed rather than acts of violence perpetrated.
I ask members to follow the logic here. If this allows individuals to express their disdain, or whatever it is that they are trying to send as a message, by destroying a flag, I would far rather have that occur than for it be played out in some violent act or in some destruction of a building or of an item that has more monetary value, I suppose, than the value of the flag.
I realize that is a dangerous road to go down. I know that the Quebec premier, Mr. Landry, made disparaging remarks about the red rag and the flag of Canada.
Again I want to be very clear in my remarks. I am not suggesting in any way that there is any merit at all in partaking in an activity that is meant to portray antagonism or to somehow enrage the passions of our adversaries by destroying their flag. However, it is a form of expression, albeit reprehensible to most I would suggest, but it has been a form of political expression for many years.
The American example is perhaps the one that is very often pointed to because the Americans cherish their flag as much as any in the world. Americans are perhaps the most fervent in their patriotism symbolized by the stars and stripes and yet they tolerate the desecration of their flag. That is not to say that they in any way like it or that they in any way encourage it, and yet it is there.
I would suggest that the way in which the criminal code is currently drafted there is protection for individual flags. There is protection for the flag of a person who chooses to display it in front of a building or in front of their cottage or their home. If another individual removes that flag, the individual is subject to theft provisions. However, if they do so for the sole purpose of destroying it, current criminal code sections would attach. Mischief to property, under section 430 of the criminal code, particularly, allows for summary offence charges to be laid by the police.
I do commend the hon. member for having brought the bill forward. If in fact there is a willingness on the part of members present to send the bill to committee I would not stand in the way of that. However I would suggest that the bill itself, in its current for, would perhaps not achieve the goals which the hon. member seeks to achieve.
I thank the hon. member for the opportunity to debate this. I think the bill, in and of itself, has achieved much of the merit and much of the goal that he sought to bring forward.