Debates of April 15th, 2002

The Environment

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister should realize that his government has been consulting, and verifying, that his ministers have been talking with each other, for quite a while now. And the problem we are facing is this: while he was outside Canada, his ministers, the Minister of Industry, the Minister of Natural Resources, officially contradicted one another, contradicted the Minister of the Environment. That is what has the public worried. The Prime Minister says one thing, and his ministers say another.

Will the Prime Minister tell us whether there is a clear government policy? Will he tell us what it is?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is very clear. The government's decision is to carry out the necessary consultations with the governments. Furthermore, I will have an opportunity this afternoon to speak with the leader of the Northwest Territories, which are also involved because they wish to build pipelines in the north and market their natural resources. In a federation such as ours, preliminary consultations are necessary.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, our responsibility, of course, is to leave the environment in good shape for the generations to come. This is why it is absolutely essential that the Kyoto accord be signed and implemented.

My supplementary for the Prime Minister is simply this: given what he has just told us, will he at least rein in his ministers of industry and natural resources, because they are causing the public great concern? He should rein them in.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I have no need to rein the ministers in. This issue is still evolving right now. And in society, as in our government, all possible aspects are considered before a decision is taken.

The interests of one may differ from those of others. The day will come when the government has to take a decision and, when it does, it will be unanimous as usual.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I also have a question for the Prime Minister. I think it is clear that overwhelmingly Canadians want the government to ratify Kyoto and get on with implementing a national plan for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

My own city of Halifax has joined a hundred other municipalities endorsing Kyoto ratification, unanimously in fact. Yet the environment minister is now turning himself inside out and upside down to rationalize his way out of ratification.

Now we hear from the Prime Minister that maybe one day. Is that the same thing as saying that the Prime Minister now ratifies the environment minister's non-ratification position?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I am very surprised that the leader of the NDP would ask a question like that because the premier of Saskatchewan told me that he has an interest in it. He said that it is very important for Canada to try to get credit for the export of clean energy to the Americans. It is not only there. There is the same interest in other provinces: Manitoba, Alberta and British Columbia. All the provinces have the same interest. It is normal for us to have consultations.

I am happy to know from the leader of the opposition that the day we make a decision she claims we should not pay attention to the provinces. It is perhaps good advice.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, that is what now parades as leadership from the government. Of course the provinces are asking where the national implementation plan is. There was a day when the government was saying it was going to be a leader in Kyoto. Then it became “by June 2002 we are going to ratify”. Then it became “by the end of 2002”.

Now, the government says “Perhaps some day”.

What happened to the leadership that the government was going to give in bringing in a national implementation plan based on consultation and get on with ratifying Kyoto?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, fine, the advice of the NDP is not to pay attention to any provincial government or to any interests in society at all. I will listen to their advice but I am more flexible than the NDP. I like to consult before acting.

Government Expenditures

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, in 1993 the Prime Minister said that he travelled the country by bus in order to hear the opinions of Canadians. He obviously is not interested in listening to Canadians anymore because he is spending over $100 million of their money to buy luxury jets for his personal use. It took cabinet 10 days to order these new jets for the Prime Minister and our Canadian military has waited almost 10 years for new helicopters.

Will the Prime Minister return to Earth, cancel the order for the flying Taj Mahals and put the money toward our troops that need it or has the little guy from Shawinigan truly become the sultan of Shawinigan?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, when I travel internationally, I travel on a military defence plane. I cannot use the Challengers because I have the pleasure of having the press travelling with me all the time and there is no place for them in the Challenger unless I put them in the toilet. Of course I do not want to do that because I have too much fun talking with them and hearing them praise me for the quality of the food that defence offers to them.

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, there are people in the Canadian armed forces who would believe that answer should be flushed in the toilet.

The commanding officer of a squadron that flies the Prime Minister said that the existing jets are “in excellent condition”. The chief of the defence staff says that there are no problems with our Challengers. The Prime Minister is ignoring the views of the military and listening to his own rock star sized ego. He even uses government jets for holiday travel, flying to Florida, Jamaica and Italy.

Why is the Prime Minister's desire for imperial style vacation travel defeating the interests of the Canadian armed forces and the interests of the Canadian taxpayers?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the RCMP does not authorize the Prime Minister to travel on commercial flights. That is why I travel, when I go on holidays, on these jets.

However I want to say to the hon. member that before making a lot about this, the reality is that the Americans bought 20 planes for executive travel at a cost of $2.4 billion. For the whole cabinet, we have four jets in Canada. These new planes will permit the ministers to go to many places they were unable to go before, and will be useful in going to the small places in Canada. They are happy they will be able to do that.

[John Reynolds, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, we hope they will visit British Columbia a little more often.

My question is for the minister of public works. He said to my colleague, when he said that we had an order for planes and we could get them for $77 million, that that was what they paid for them and he got great applause. Yet on March 28 his own department released a press release saying they acquired two Challenger 604 aircraft at a cost of $100.9 million. Where is the difference of $25 million?

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, actually the amount is $76.4 million so it is even cheaper than the quote of the broker friend of the right hon. member across. It is $76.4, plus the parts, plus the infrastructure, plus the pilot training, plus taxes, which totals $101 million. It is called mathematics.

[John Reynolds, Canadian Alliance, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, it seems they are building another Taj Mahal over there. It would seem that the former member of the rat pack is now part of the fat pack.

Could he explain what is extra? He is right that we rounded the figure out just like we did $101 million. Could he explain exactly, not parts since these planes come with parts, what are the extras that make it cost an additional $25 million?

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, that is the normal procurement process. Let me do it again for the hon. member.

The two planes are $38.2 million each. That is $76.4 million plus the extra parts, a one year process that is normal in any acquisition of this kind, plus pilot training, plus other associated costs, plus taxes. The total is $101 million.

That is the way it is. It is mathematics. The member can check it out with his seatmate and his broker friend. That is the way it works.

The Middle East

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the German peace plan includes the following: securing a lasting ceasefire and withdrawal from the occupied territories; quickly createing a Palestinian state and launching a global negotiation process that would include the dismantling of Jewish settlements; stopping the use of violence and punishing terrorist acts and aspirations; guaranteeing the involvement of the international community in the plan's implementation.

Does the Minister of Foreign Affairs agree with the main features of this plan?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the Canadian government has always made it clear that it supports all the principles stated by the German government, which are to respect UN resolution 1402, to return to the negotiation table and to support Mr. Powell in his increasingly important role.

The only problem I have is that this is not a formal plan. These are only ideas put forward by my counterpart, Mr. Fischer. We support Mr. Fischer and Mr. Powell in any attempt to achieve peace in the Middle East.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, today, the European Union's Ministers of Foreign Affairs approved the German plan, and they also expressed their support for Colin Powell's mediation initiative.

However, they said that they agreed with this plan to determine the objective that must be pursued by Colin Powell.

Is the minister also prepared to say loud and clear what mediation and peace objectives must be pursued for the Middle East?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, we have always said that our objective is to support Mr. Powell.

Mr. Powell wants the UN resolution to be respected and a return to negotiations based on the Tenet and Mitchell plans, which clearly show the way to peace.

The important thing right now is that the violence must stop and the parties must resume negotiations. This is what we have to focus on. This is what the Canadian, German and American governments, and the whole world, are hoping for.

Leadership Campaigns

[James Moore, Canadian Alliance, Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the finance minister seems to have forgotten the importance of transparency and accountability in public life. Twelve years ago when he was first running for the Liberal leadership he said:

I believe that the only answer is full disclosure so there is no possibility that the Canadian people will not know everything that is going on.

Now that he is running for the leadership again, and this time serves as finance minister, will he return to the standard he set 12 years ago and table a list of those with whom Jim Palmer was paid by the Department of Finance to consult, and the list of those who donated to his secret Liberal leadership campaign fund? This is his chance to walk his talk. Will he do it?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Palmer on behalf of the department consulted with a wide number of people and then made advice available to the department. The department is in the process of assessing the situation.

[James Moore, Canadian Alliance, Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, full disclosure was the minister's standard but he cowers behind the Deputy Prime Minister or the ethics counsellor. It seems that he has something to hide.

He said Canadians have to know what is going on. They do not know what is going on with the minister and the connection between his department and his leadership campaign financing.

Now that the stakes are higher and he has some control over the public purse, why will the minister not live up to his own ethical standards and disclose these lists?

[The Speaker]

The Chair has great difficulty with that question. It does not appear to deal with the departmental responsibilities of the minister. I believe therefore it is out of order.

Société Radio-Canada

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, according to Radio-Canada's own figures, there are one and a half times more permanent employees in Ontario than in Quebec.

Without interfering in the negotiations, does the Minister of Canadian Heritage not think that it is about time to send a clear political message to Radio-Canada, when there are one and a half times more employees in Quebec without job security than in Ontario?