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House of Commons Hansard #173 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was mace.

Topics

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

5:20 p.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Madam Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

5:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Is that agreed?

Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings

5:20 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-15B, an act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, be read the third time and passed; and of the amendment; and of the amendment to the amendment.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Vic Toews Canadian Alliance Provencher, MB

Madam Speaker, the amendment deals with moving the bill back to committee and returning it by a specified date. This motion is required in order to give credence to the comments of the former minister of justice, that what is legitimate today will be lawful tomorrow under the bill.

A number of issues have been pointed out that have caused concern. First is the breadth of the offence and the elimination of very specific defences under the act. I have heard people say time and again that the defences under section 8 are now applicable and the defences under section 429 are not needed. The point is that the defences under section 8 were always applicable. In respect of those specific property offences, section 429 set up certain specific defences. They were put there for a reason.

If we eliminate those defences in respect of animal offences, there is clearly a substantive change that has taken place. In order to ensure that does not occur, and as the former minister herself indicated some time ago that what is legitimate today will be lawful tomorrow, we need to specifically have those defences put into the new part where these offences are going.

The other point is that when someone is charged under a criminal code offence, there is an issue of clarity. The offence itself must be clear. If someone is going to be charged under the criminal code and the offence is not clear, it does the principles and administration of justice a disservice. This particular offence is not clear nor is it clear in respect of the defences that are applicable.

I want to reiterate that the Canadian Alliance supports the increased penalties for animal cruelty but we are certainly very concerned about creating criminal liability where no criminal liability exists. It has been a feature of the government to bring in legislation that minimizes the amount of mens rea required before there can be a conviction. Mens rea is the Latin term relating to guilty mind. In our parliamentary system and our justice system, mens rea is an essential element of every criminal offence. That needs to be clear.

The final point I will make is that people as prominent as Pierre Berton have indicated very strongly that the bill will impact negatively on our scientific research community. The progress we have made in health care has come at some expense and has involved the use of animals. We want to ensure that continues for the health of the people of Canada. We do not want the use of animals done in any cruel or inappropriate way. Health care professionals and scientific researchers need that assurance of protection under the law.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Before we resume debate, I want to make sure everyone understood that earlier the vote was deferred at the request of the government House leader. For the record, the vote is deferred until tomorrow evening after orders of the day.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Lanctôt Bloc Châteauguay, QC

Madam Speaker, I rise today to provide the Bloc Quebecois' position as regards the amendment to the amendment.

We believe that it is high time to take action on the matter of cruelty to animals, but this does not mean that we should act in haste.

It is true that cruelty to animals is a serious problem that deserves our attention. We are on the record as saying that these are horrible acts of violence committed wilfully, while animals cannot defend themselves, nor assert their rights.

The Bloc Quebecois is opposed to Bill C-15B for two main reasons: because of the lack of protection for legitimate activities with animals, and also because it takes important powers away from the chief firearms officer.

That being said, we do support the amendment to the amendment to establish a deadline for an indepth study into the provisions of Bill C-15B regarding means of defence. While we support the notion of a new section that would introduce an innovative concept by changing the notion of animals as property, we are opposed to the significant and negative impact this could have for all those who work legitimately as breeders, hunters and researchers.

The amendment is an important one, but it should not be made to the detriment of others. It is true that we no longer view animals in the same way that we used to. However, I would not want this innovation to change the lives of those who have worked for years in the livestock, scientific research or sport sectors.

So the amendment to the amendment sets a deadline by which the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights must report to the House further to its detailed consideration of clause 8 of Bill C-15B.

The Bloc Quebecois is in favour of the amendment to the amendment because it means that there is a reasonable possibility that clause 8 of Bill C-15B will be reviewed in a careful and detailed manner. This clause defines the benchmarks for the protection of legitimate activities in the animal industry.

Bill C-15B raises strong controversy. One of the areas of controversy is the flagrant lack of protection for these legitimate activities in the animal industry. As we have already said, we cannot support Bill C-15B as now worded.

The specific defences provided for in section 429 of the criminal code, which now explicitly protect those who raise livestock, hunters, the animal industry and researchers, are not included in new part V.1 of the criminal code.

The primary purpose of this bill should have been to increase penalties for any reprehensible and violent activity. Furthermore, the term “cruelty” is clear to this effect. The penalty for a cruel offence should be serious enough to deter anyone contemplating it. But this is not the case with Bill C-15B, because it lumps all violent actions together, whether or not cruelty is involved. This is unacceptable.

In committee, we were told that it was not the government's intention to deny the legitimate activities of livestock raising, hunting and research the protection to which they are entitled. But protection is expressly provided for in section 429 of the criminal code, whereas it is not in clause 8 of the bill.

I therefore wonder why these protections in section 429 of the criminal code are not included in new part V.1 of the criminal code. It is simply not logical.

On numerous occasions in committee, we put forward many amendments to this effect. They were all rejected. It is therefore time to go back and take a specific look at the defences provided for, which should be provided for in clause 8.

We could ask ourselves what is really motivating the government right now. Why not include provisions which have been around for a long time?

The Bloc Quebecois has introduced amendments to that effect, but they have all been rejected, as I have said. In our opinion, it is essential to protect animals, and this is a matter of some urgency. It is, however, important to take steps that are both appropriate and prudent if all stakeholders are to be satisfied. This is both possible and attainable.

As I have said, we favour the creation of a new part in the criminal code, to address the protection of animals. It would give them a new definition and a new legal value. We cannot, however, accept this being done without respecting the currently applicable mechanisms of protection, the means of defence listed in section 429.

To do so is tantamount to disrespecting the men and women who have been working in this field for many years. Not including a defence that is currently available is cause for concern.

Does this mean we can no longer count on our legislation? Does this mean that normal activities will soon become illegal? From what we can see, this will indeed be the case.

I wonder about the vision the government has chosen. If this means that our legitimate activities are going to be in a precarious position in future, I am concerned. I am both concerned and disappointed. It seems to me that today we possess all the tools necessary to create an approach that would punish true offenders while protecting farmers, hunters and researchers. From what I see, this approach is far from being as complete and all-encompassing as it could be.

I have already said, and I repeat, the fact that the defences found in subsection 429(2) of the criminal code are not included in the new part V.1 will have the effect of depriving those who legally kill or cause pain to animals of the protection they are currently afforded.

Section 429 of the criminal code sets out that legal justification or excuse and colour of right constitute specific protection to whomever takes part in a legitimate and legal activity. I believe that it is important to include these specific safeguards in part V.1 of the criminal code.

According to the former Minister of Justice, subsection 8(3) of the criminal code will be applied. This type of statement demonstrates incomplete and clearly inadequate intentions. According to officials from the Department of Justice, defences of legal justification or excuse are implied in section 8. This defies logic. It is impossible to shift from specific and explicit provisions to an implicit application without any problems.

For this reason, the Bloc Quebecois insists that these specific defences, currently set out in the criminal code, absolutely must be repeated in the new part V.1 of the criminal code. Furthermore, we believe that sending this aspect of the bill back for study in committee is a good sign.

This review is long overdue. So why rush ahead without thinking now. All the ins and outs of the new provisions must be examined in order to ensure that the scope of Bill C-15B is logical. Care must also be taken to ensure that Bill C-15B really meets the needs of all parties.

We are therefore in favour of increased protection for animals, as well as the explicit inclusion of protection for legitimate animal industry, sport and research activities.

It is obvious to us that Bill C-15B, as now worded, will cause serious difficulties for hunters, medical and scientific researchers, and the entire animal industry. There must therefore be a completely democratic approach in committee, so that all aspects of cruelty to animals can be taken into consideration.

The facts associated with this phenomenon of intolerable violence should be re-evaluated. We must ensure that there can be no possible conflicting interpretations of the new provisions.

This is what is required of us in our role as parliamentarians. Asking the committee to report before the summer shows that we are being diligent as parliamentarians, because we feel that this scourge requires our serious and urgent attention.

I call on the government, on the Minister of Justice, and on his parliamentary secretary, to have a look at this motion and approve it so that we give serious consideration to the defences which I feel should be explicitly included, which take nothing away from the bill and which will protect all stakeholders in the animal industry.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

NDP

Dick Proctor NDP Palliser, SK

Madam Speaker, I intend to make a few brief remarks regarding the subamendment put forward by the hon. member for Selkirk--Interlake that says that the committee should report back to the House not later than June 21.

Bill C-15B has passed committee. The New Democratic Party caucus voted in favour of the legislation. We were supportive of government measures to modify sections of the criminal code dealing with cruelty to animals and sections of the Firearms Act making administration of the act and the gun registry system more responsive and easier to access.

Bill C-15B's cruelty to animals provisions would remove offences dealing with animal cruelty from the property crimes section of the criminal code and create a separate section. This is a conceptual shift our caucus has supported throughout the process. Rather than treating crimes against animals as crimes against property the bill would give animals their own status as creatures that can and do feel pain.

Concerns about the potential impact of Bill C-15B on rural and northern constituents were largely put to rest in going through the legislation. Amendments introduced by the former justice minister and supported by the NDP caucus addressed the concerns of farmers, fishers, hunters and trappers about being subject to frivolous prosecution or harassment. Under Bill C-15B they would have available to them many of the defences they possess under the existing code.

A number of animal welfare groups are concerned about the wording dealing with abandonment of animals. The government's recent amendments included the words wilful and reckless. According to the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals this would make abandonment charges difficult to prosecute.

Bill C-15B would impact neither normal industry practices nor the legitimate use of animal products in society. Under the bill police forces and societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals would be able to prosecute animal cruelty offences in a stronger fashion.

The gun control and registration portion of the bill deals with modifications to the Canadian gun registration system. The changes were introduced to make the system more accessible and responsive to the demands of users. There was significant opposition from various gun lobby groups on the grounds that there should be no gun registration system at all. However the User Group on Firearms, a consultative body of gun users formed by the government, seemed satisfied with the modifications and the improvements they would make to the system. On the other side, the Coalition for Gun Control did not oppose the amendments.

When the agriculture committee was in New Brunswick last month we had the opportunity to tour the gun registration centre in Miramichi. We were all very pleased to see the image of the hon. member for Selkirk--Interlake come up on the screen. We were pleased his application had been accepted and his permit had been mailed to him the day before. I am sure he is proudly showing it to all his friends in Selkirk--Interlake.

I will close by referring to a sad and disturbing matter adjudicated last week in a Toronto courtroom. Two young men drew what seemed like, as the Globe and Mail editorial reported, “extraordinarily light sentences for killing and mutilating a cat and videotaping the spectacle in the name of 'art'”. Animal activists were outraged that one culprit received a 90-day jail term to be served on weekends and the other walked free in lieu of time already served. It was felt the sentencing judge could have been tougher. The two people convicted knew exactly what they were doing when they stole a healthy pet cat and inflicted unspeakable suffering by skinning it alive, dissecting it and gouging out one of its eyes.

Equally evident in court was that the two were in no way inhibited by the law as it currently stands. The law as it currently stands dates back 110 years. The maximum penalty for animal cruelty under the 110 year old act is six months.

Today's Globe and Mail editorial states:

Bill C-15B, which has received second reading by the House of Commons, would raise that maximum to five years. The new legislation would also permit a lifetime ban on pet ownership and increase the ceiling on fines to $10,000.

These useful changes, long overdue, reflect a sea change in public attitudes toward animals over the past century. As well, there is ample evidence that cruelty to animals is not only commonplace but also a threshold to other, more serious aberrant behaviour.

But you would not know that from the resistance the bill has generated among some Canadian Alliance and Tory MPs. For them, the new legislation is a sinister assault on the rights of farmers, ranchers, hunters and other law-abiding folk who work with animals.

Wrong. Under the changes, animal cruelty will have its own section in the Criminal Code. And in case those critics have forgotten, for a crime to occur there has to be intent.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

5:40 p.m.

Northumberland Ontario

Liberal

Paul MacKlin LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Madam Speaker, a number of statements have been made by hon. members during the last week of debate. I am pleased to have an opportunity to come forward today and give clarification to the issues.

First, I will talk about the status of animals as property. One of the members indicated that animals are treated as property under the criminal code. The hon. member said moving the cruelty provisions out of the property section of the criminal code would confer elevated status or even rights on animals.

As a matter of constitutional law the provinces rather than the federal government are responsible for property and civil rights. There is nothing in Bill C-15B which would in any way affect legislation or common law rules regarding property, many of which have been developed by the provinces.

The ability of humans to own animals is well entrenched in our common law. There is nothing in Bill C-15B which would change the property status of animals. Moving the provisions from one part of the code and putting them in another would not change the status of animals. It is completely misleading to suggest the status of animals would be elevated.

It is extremely important to emphasize that the law states that society has an interest in protecting all animals, whether owned or not, from the infliction of unnecessary pain, suffering, injury or criminal neglect. This is not new. It has been in the criminal code since 1953. Cruelty provisions in one form or another have been in the code since 1892.

The important changes in Bill C-15B regarding animal cruelty are twofold. They would increase penalties. They would also reorganize the provisions to allow for both the mental and physical aspects of offences regarding intentional cruelty and criminal neglect.

Second, I will discuss the notion that Bill C-15B would hamper pest control and industry in general. There has been a great deal of discussion in the House today about this. It has been said that Bill C-15B would prevent farmers from poisoning or killing pests. The tests for liability under Bill C-15B would not be changed even though the provisions would be reorganized and updated. The provisions with regard to killing or poisoning animals without lawful excuse would remain. Lawful excuse would be retained because the killing of animals for food, pest control and so forth has long been recognized by common law and continues to be recognized by case law, statute, regulations, codes of conduct and so forth.

It is equally inaccurate to state that farmers would not be able to kill injured animals to end their suffering. The tests for liability under Bill C-15B would not be changed. Bill C-15B would not make illegal any practice which currently meets the requirements of the law against unnecessary pain, suffering or criminal neglect.

Third, I will talk about the test for negligence. One member has stated that under Bill C-15B the test would be for civil negligence. This is not true. Subclause 182.3(2) specifically defines negligence as a standard of criminal negligence. It says the behaviour of the accused must constitute a marked departure from the standard of care of a reasonable person in similar circumstances. The Supreme Court of Canada has expressly stated that in any situation where the possibility of imprisonment exists a standard of criminal as opposed to civil negligence is a constitutional requirement.

Fourth, I will talk about people's alleged vulnerability to vexatious prosecutions. A number of members have complained that Bill C-15B would make industry more vulnerable to vexatious prosecutions by animal rights activists. At the same time they have complained that the proposed screening mechanism of Bill C-15A would expose those accused to the costs of hiring a lawyer.

We cannot have it both ways. The criminal code currently has a number of safety mechanisms which allow the prosecutor to intervene and if necessary, stay a prosecution which is commenced by a person other than a peace officer or a public officer.

Bill C-15A extends this protection to a much earlier stage in the process to a point in time before the potential accused is even charged. The process is not a preliminary hearing. It is a screening process where a judge or a designated justice must be satisfied that there is sufficient reason to proceed before the accused is even required to attend court.

This process forces the prosecutor to assess the strength of the case at the first opportunity and to recommend to the judge or justice that the matter proceed if and only if there is sufficient reason to do so. One important consideration that the prosecutor will consider in making his or her recommendation to the court is whether or not it is in the public interest to proceed, a very important point.

Next I would like to deal with the argument that has been brought forward concerning section 429 and its absence. The argument that the reason subsection 429(2) defences have not been argued in cruelty cases is that their very existence precludes the crown from prosecuting.

The Canadian Criminal Lawyers Association in its testimony before the committee confirmed that removing the cruelty provision from part XI of the criminal code would not diminish any defences available to accused persons. All defences in subsection 429(2) which could possibly be relevant to animal cruelty cases and available under subsection 429(2) are equally available under subsection 8(3) of the criminal code.

It is simply wrong to indicate that the existence of defences acts as a bar to prosecution . Case law has clearly confirmed that there is no onus on the crown to disprove all relevant defences as part of its case. Once the crown has proven all elements of the offence beyond a reasonable doubt, the accused bears an evidentiary burden to raise a doubt about one of the elements of the offence. If the accused does so, then the crown must disprove the defence beyond a reasonable doubt. That is very important.

The last issue I would like to deal with is the definition of animal. Under the current cruelty provisions, animal is not defined. At the present time the courts are free to interpret the word animal in accordance with its everyday meaning, resulting in an interpretation broad enough to include most, if not all, members of the animal kingdom and certainly including many invertebrates. A definition is included in this legislation for the sake of clarity.

From a scientific perspective, vertebrates are generally viewed as having sufficiently developed nervous systems to allow for sense and pain perception. They are therefore as a group all given the protection of the law. But some invertebrates have a developed nervous system and therefore also may have the capacity to feel pain.

It would be arbitrary to permanently and absolutely deny protection to some animals because they happen to be classified as invertebrates. Bill C-15B creates a mechanism that allows the crown to proceed in appropriate cases. The burden of proof which must be met by the crown is proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

There are three jurisdictions in Canada which have a definition of animal in their respective statutes which is broader than the definition found in Bill C-15B. To date there is no indication that the definition of animal used in these jurisdictions has resulted in inappropriate use of the legislation.

I am very pleased to have had this opportunity to correct some of the information that has been brought forward during the debate.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to have an opportunity to correct some of the inaccuracies put forward by the parliamentary secretary who comes from a rural riding I might add. I was quite surprised actually at the adamant stance he has taken to protect his government's very interventionist legislation that will impact in a very negative way on many of the residents who are involved with the rearing and raising of animals.

In his legal definition he stated many of those legal maxims which I would describe as penetratingly obvious. He said that prosecutors would have the discretion to proceed with charges or not. Of course they would. He said that somehow colour of right excuses and defences do not have to be disproved by the crown. That is very obvious. The reality is that by taking animals out of the property section it removes the defence that is explicitly stated in the current provisions of the criminal code that stake out that lawful excuse of colour of right provided for those animal users and animal industry people, a specific defence that has been there and has been sacrosanct.

It is fair to characterize the government's position as once again driving a very firm wedge between rural and urban Canada. There is what I would describe as a cultural difference that exists when it comes to dealing with animals in many instances.

It is the view of the Progressive Conservative Party that absolutely we need legislation to protect animals. By all means we have to update and modernize provisions of the criminal code in that regard. However it is an absolute sham to suggest that somehow it is necessary to go so far as to deem animals as no longer property. That definition of property goes a great distance to actually protect animals because who has a greater interest than those animal owners and industry people who rely on animals for their very livelihood, for their very existence?

I am surprised by the support that exists from members like the member for Malpeque and others on the government side who come from rural ridings. They must have a great sense of discomfort when it comes to the whip telling them that they will have to vote in favour of this legislation. We have seen that scenario play out time and time again.

The cruelty issues are ones which are extremely emotional, ones which invoke a very strong response from most if not all Canadians. The examples given where animals have been dragged behind vehicles, or barbecued, or skinned alive are offensive to everyone. There has been a very effective PR effort made by some interest groups and some government members to paint anyone who opposes this legislation as being in favour somehow of cruelty to animals. That is absolutely untrue and absolutely inflammatory and inconsistent with statements that have been made.

The people at justice department who drafted this legislation were very clever in putting forward their case in suggesting that somehow this will have no impact and this will just currently bump along with the way these prosecutions have taken place. There is nothing that cannot be achieved. There is no intent, no ability on the part of the police and the prosecution and the system of those that want to embrace and enhance animal protection that cannot be achieved by simply leaving these provisions plus these amendments within the current property sections of the criminal code.

This unprecedented step to designate animals as somehow outside that property section opens up the proverbial can of worms that puts in danger hunters, farmers, scientists, individuals who very much rely on and work with animals in their day to day existence. I would suggest it is aimed specifically at farmers who engage in some practices such as branding or castration.

We have to be very honest. We cannot be pristine and somehow removed from the fact that animals are a source of food and therefore have to be slaughtered on occasion. There are religious acts that involve the sacrifice of animals. I would be quick to add that scientific research often does impinge upon the rights of an animal. However, let us be very pragmatic about this, it is done for the greater good.

I say this without a bit of sarcasm; we are at the top of the food chain. Scientists engage in activities to find new methods and new cures for human conditions. They engage in certain acts of genetic experimentation done to address some of the horrible illnesses that are out there. Some priority must be given to those very legitimate and lawful acts.

The proprietary aspects of animal use have been very important throughout the debate. We have heard from a number of industry people as well as those on the other side who in a very strident way have made their case. The important section which currently permits acts to be done with legal justification, legal excuse or with colour of right should remain, and should remain in that property section.

We share the concerns that have been expressed by Canadians involving the lax sentences that are sometimes handed down. Again I state for emphasis those objectives of increasing the sentences of expanding the availability that judges have to mete out sentences that are more in line with public abhorrence of violence toward animals and toward people. There is a clear nexus, as other members have said, between individuals who exhibit aggression toward animals and later go on to exhibit that same type of aggression toward human beings. There is no denying that fact.

If we are to send a message of deterrence and public protection, we have to have a higher range of sentencing. That can be achieved and it is achieved by portions of the bill, but it flaws the entire process I would suggest. We see this time and time again. This is perhaps why the former minister of justice called her own department the world's worst law firm because it does not get it right. It does not seem to take into account the interests of rural Canadians who each and every day rely on working with animals.

Let us not beat around the bush about what will happen if a crown prosecution or a private prosecution is commenced against an individual who legitimately has been engaged in activities that might be deemed as cruel to animals, such as branding. That person will be up against a system which may take months and may cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars to go through. That type of delay and interference with a person's livelihood could very well result in bankruptcy, in ruined reputation and in loss of reputation in the community.

Let us not pretend for a minute that our justice system is working well. There have been strikes at legal aid. Cases have been thrown out of court because of delays. There is a huge backlog of cases already in the justice system. This could very well result in a further exaggeration of some of the miscarriages of justice that often occur.

There is a real troubled sense for many members of parliament, particularly those from rural Canada, who are faced with voting for this bill and simply swallowing what I would deem to be a poisoned element of it, plugging their noses in doing so, or standing up and putting these legitimate concerns forward. That is what I, on behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party, on behalf of a rural riding, am attempting to do.

There are legitimate worthwhile elements of the bill we would love to support. However, we heard from a number of the groups that came before the committee, such as the Canadian Federation of Agriculture and rural representatives from across the country who said that this bill will put them between the proverbial rock and a hard place. It will impinge upon their ability to carry out what were previously deemed as normal and lawful activities.

It is with great regret that I express on behalf of our party that we cannot support this legislation in its current form. We would very much love to see the opportunity that the amendment would provide, to bring the matter back to a committee. We could hear again from the stakeholders and particularly from those members of the agricultural sector who described the impact of this legislation as being extremely detrimental.

That is what we should do. We should take the time to get it right. Time and time again we see the government cutting off debate and shutting down legitimate concerns. That is why I would encourage members of the House to support this amendment and have the opportunity to bring the legislation back for study at the justice committee.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Is the House ready for the question?

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

The question is on the subamendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the subamendment?

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

All those in favour of the subamendment will please say yea.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

All those opposed will please say nay.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Call in the members.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dale Johnston Canadian Alliance Wetaskiwin, AB

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I believe you would find unanimous consent that the vote on the subamendment be deferred until the end of government orders tomorrow.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Is it agreed?

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

An act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms ActGovernment Orders

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Jordan Liberal Leeds—Grenville, ON

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would ask that you seek unanimous consent to see the clock at 6.30 p.m. so we can proceed to the late show.