Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-47, an act to amend the Excise Act and the Excise Tax Act, but I will be a lot less pleased with the result if this bill is ever passed.
It is appropriate to remind those who are listening to us that this bill is aimed at amending the Excise Act and the Excise Tax Act, everything that has to do with wine, spirits, beer, tobacco and distilleries. All this is in the current legislation. The government has decided to modernize the act and make it more functional. We think it is appropriate because it deals with licensing requirements, rights of accession, offences, collection provisions, records, book-keeping and warehousing. All these issues are linked to the management of the excise tax on all of the above.
Unfortunately, something was forgotten in this bill. As if by amazing coincidence, it was decided not to deal with the issue of beer in this bill. How did we get to this point?
In Quebec and in Canada, the microbreweries are going through changes. They are experiencing a great many problems. Many have shut down in recent years. When we seek the causes of this phenomenon, we realize that one of the main ones is that the market in Quebec and in Canada has been invaded by other microbreweries in the U.S., and likely Europe as well.
These countries set out in good faith to tax their microbreweries at a different rate than the big breweries. Canadian beer is taxed at 28 cents a litre, while the United States charges 9 cents. This is obviously a big difference. When the American beer arrives on the Quebec or Canadian market, it is in an advantageous position as far as price goes, particularly since the major Canadian breweries are the ones distributing it on the Canadian market.
So, it becomes more understandable why the major breweries have lobbied heavily, right up to and including influencing the chair of the Standing Committee on Finance, to get her not to include the amendments relating to beer in the bill revising the Excise Tax Act—really now—and revising the entire situation. This is not going to come again anytime soon. The federal government is not going to be dealing with any other amendments to excise tax in the near future.
Why then not take this opportunity to review the entire issue and let our microbreweries enjoy the same advantages as their American and European competition in the Quebec and Canadian markets? The excise tax issue may not be an exciting one, but it does have major impacts.
Let us recall that the present government brags about helping regional and local development. The secretary of state responsible for rural development is currently touring all the major centres of Canada. This seems a bit of a paradox, being responsible for rural development touring around all the major centres to tell people how important rural communities are.
But when it comes to concrete action, when something relevant should be done, something that would help communities develop local beer, for example, and contribute in that way to tourism development, the government drags its feet. Similar markets are being developed for cheese. We can draw a parallel here.
Concerning raw milk cheese, a formidable lobby has tried to pressure the federal government into adopting requirements that apply to industrial cheese. Once again, a lobby group was involved. Right here, in this House, we had to demonstrate that raw milk cheese is something accepted everywhere. Ultimately, we won that case.
Obviously, it is very difficult for the government to admit that its position was influenced by lobby groups. In the medium term, we are bound to win this case, because logic is on our side. We won the raw milk cheese case, and we will also win the case of microbrewery beer.
Most importantly, citizens should understand that the federal government is hiding behind the fact that this bill does not deal with beer, making the amendment out of order. This is completely unacceptable.
This is a complete revision of the legislation. A number of elements should be dealt with right away, and they should be included in the bill, but they have been left out.
When we have had unanimous consent in this place and determined that a problem ought to be remedied, I have seen bills breeze through the three readings in a single day.
Why should we have to debate Bill C-47 today without amending it? Should the government not take the time to send the bill back to committee and, with the consent of all parties, include the beer industry?
The argument they give us, that it is not in the bill, is totally give unacceptable. The government has all the numbers it needs to correct the situation. There is no reason to put it off. It should make a decision rapidly in order to help microbreweries have a reasonable and adequate access to markets in Quebec, Canada and around the world, with the prospect of being sufficiently competitive.
The situation must be corrected. The Bloc Quebecois, of course, talks a lot about microbreweries in Quebec. But there are microbreweries in many other provinces of Canada. There are seven in British Columbia, five in Alberta. There are some in Manitoba, in Nova Scotia. The problem exists and we must tackle it in order to improve the situation in Quebec and in Canada.
The government has not expressed any substantial argument today. Even the last two Liberal members who spoke in support of the bill said: “We must settle the issue of microbreweries, but we do not think that it should be done in this bill”. Will we have to wait for the disappearance of all the microbreweries before talking about it? That is the reality we will have to live with.
Some were tricked in this regard. Unibroue's president said that the Minister of Justice from Quebec, who was then responsible of regional development, supported such an amendment. Where is the Minister of Justice today? Where are the other Liberal members from Quebec, who are not saying one single word in support of an emerging, developing industry that is creating local jobs not requiring very high qualifications. In a village, it can create two, three, five, ten jobs, and allow a microbrewery to operate. This is very interesting, and it could lead to all kinds of spinoffs.
I am very surprised that the federal government could not find anything to say in support of its basic position. Its members simply said, “The legislation does not say a word about beer, so we stick to what we have got”.
The flexibility required to solve such a problem is not there. I find this totally unacceptable and irresponsible on the part of the federal government. In some ways, there is something suspicious, and politically unethical.
As for the way the work was done, if we could go back in time, I think the appropriate scenario would have been that, right at the beginning of the committee's work, the chair should have said: “I cannot chair the committee because of this issue. My husband is a major lobbyist for a big multinational, for a big national brewery, and I cannot take part in this debate. I ask that the chairmanship be given to someone else”.
Thus, we would not be in the mess we are in with the government trying to defend the indefensible, that is, slowly killing Quebec and Canadian microbreweries. There is no reason for this to happen. The only reason is that, in some regards, the other side is governing according to the funding of the Liberal Party of Canada, instead of according to the interests of Quebec and Canada.
If we continue in this direction, we will find ourselves in a situation where, when the studies are completed, when the government will have made its bed on this issue, the final answer will be: “Of course, there is no point in legislating in this regard, there are no microbreweries left”. The way things are going, this is where we are headed.
What should we do to convince the government to change its attitude? Is there not a way for the government, without losing face, to add an amendment to the bill, perhaps in committee of the whole or at third reading; or with the unanimous consent of the House, the bill could be referred back to the committee so that, quickly, it might be amended to adequately protect microbreweries?
What will it take for the government to decide to budge? What will it take for it to recognize that the lobbying that was done by the big national breweries does not adequately reflect the needs of microbreweries?
If microbreweries had said that they liked the bill as it is, that this issue could be dealt with at a later date, that there was plenty of time and we should just wait, then the government would have something to defend its position.
However, there is absolutely nothing to justify the federal government's position today. The current position of the federal government has the effect of systematically reducing, day after day, year after year, the market share of microbreweries.
For the average person, it is hard to grasp why large breweries that currently have 95% or 96% of the market would absolutely want to have the other 4%. The answer is in the profits that these breweries can make.
Apparently, 1% of the market is worth $17 million in gross profits. Therefore, it is certainly in the interest of shareholders of large breweries that the government maintain its current position. Their profits continue to grow. No problem. Things are going well so they will be a little more generous with the Liberal Party of Canada. They consider that the Liberals' way of doing things is the correct one and that they protect them well. It is a big business government more than anything else.
However we are here to determine what is for the common good. In this particular industry, the way to create employment, to ensure that microbreweries have their place on the market in Quebec, in Canada and in the United States and to see the positive impact that these cottage-type operations can have on tourism is to give microbreweries some room to breathe. This is not being done at this time and, in the end, it will just lead to the disappearance of more and more microbreweries.
In my riding, there is a microbrewery that produces Bruegel beer. The brewery was established a few years ago. It is now positioning itself on the market. We can be sure that it could really use the difference between 9¢ and 18¢ a litre. This is what it takes sometimes to get into the market and allow more reasonable profit margins for retailers, bars and restaurants selling the beer and thus develop a local market without threatening the survival of large national breweries in the least.
Even if their market share were 93% or 94% instead of 95%, none of the large breweries will close because of that. That is not what will bring about closure, but it could lead to the creation of more jobs. Large breweries, with their massive and highly automated production, do not create that many jobs, in the end.
However, microbreweries, with their cottage industry style of production, need a certain number of people to operate their production line. It is to our advantage for them to expand. Until now we have not succeeded in convincing the government to remedy the situation.
I think we could call on all the members of the House to check in their ridings and their regions to see if there would not be any microbrewery. Liberal members should consider whether the stand they will take in the vote on this bill is contrary to the needs of their constituents. This might make them realize a few things that could prompt them to knock at the finance minister's door to tell him something like “I think that we could use a little more time to review this. We have all the documents, all the information and all the analysis that we need. Bill C-47 on the excise tax can be amended. Let us correct the situation”.
There are two possible courses of action. If nothing is done, the number of microbreweries could diminish dramatically. In five years, perhaps one, two, three or even four will have survived. The big national breweries will occupy this whole market and may also have bought a few microbreweries just before or after they shut down, to control that market as well. Thus, we will have been instrumental in slowing down the economy in our regions.
Alternately, if we take our responsibilities and act right now, in a few years, in five years perhaps, there will be 100 and some microbreweries in operation across Canada, contributing in a dynamic and interesting way to their communities.
It all depends on the willingness of the Canadian government to make a decision in the interest of the common good rather than that of those who influence the political parties through financing or the roles they can play. There lays the answer.
The Canadian government should go ahead now and address the situation on the basis of our arguments. Let us resume debate where it should be resumed. Let us appoint a committee chair who will be independent, who will not be or seem to be in a conflict of interest and who will see to it that the beer issue is considered and reported on promptly.
I do not think anybody in this House will object to the committee examining only that aspect of Bill C-47. As far as the other ones are concerned, we agree with what is in the bill. We could quickly review the sole issue of beer, include it in Bill C-47, and ultimately achieve the desired results.
Let us not forget that prices are an important factor on the beer market. People who buy a beer for a tasting session may be ready to pay a bit more. However, the difference in price due to the difference in taxes may prevent a microbrewery from selling its product, because its prices will be higher than those of microbreweries in the United States. Often, it is the look of the bottle, the way it is sold or the type of production that make people buy these beers. However, as far as the price elasticity of the product is concerned, one cannot sell a product that contrasts sharply with other products on the same market and with the same types of products.
So the government has a decision to make. I sincerely hope that, for the sake of our regions and our microbreweries, but also because it is an issue of fairness and almost political ethics, the federal government will reconsider its position and amend Bill C-47 and quickly reconsider amendments on beer. We would then feel that we have really done our job properly and that we were not just listening to those who make the most noise because they have the money and are able to influence the government because of it.
This is the challenge I issue to this house and to all members of parliament. I remind hon. members that when they cast their final vote, they will have made a choice, which will bring economic benefits or disadvantages. Also, they will have made a choice based on the rules of conduct we should abide by in this house but, unfortunately, do not always.