Debates of April 30th, 2002

Excise Act, 2001

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Deputy Speaker]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Deputy Speaker]

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

[The Deputy Speaker]

Accordingly, the vote on the amendment is deferred until the end of oral question period tomorrow afternoon.

The House resumed from April 23 consideration of the motion that Bill C-15B, an act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, be read the third time and passed; and of the amendment.

An Act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act

[Paul MacKlin, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to address hon. members on the occasion of the consideration of an amendment to the motion to proceed to third reading.

It is time for the House to respond to the expectations of Canadians. Legislation that updates animal cruelty provisions and provides enhanced penalties for animal abusers has been before the House in one form or another since December 1, 1999. That is two and one-half years during which there have been numerous opportunities for organizations from a broad spectrum of interests to come forward and make their views known.

They have shared their views with the Department of Justice, with members of parliament, with the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, with the media and with other members of the public. There has been a full comprehensive debate on the issue of the changes that must be made to modernize the animal cruelty provisions. I want to take this opportunity to thank rural caucus members for their extensive contributions to the debate and the shaping of this legislation.

During the two and one-half years, the former minister of justice listened very carefully to the concerns of all Canadians, including industry. In fact, to be absolutely clear about the fact that criminal liability for intentional cruelty and criminal neglect had not been changed, the former minister of justice made several accommodations to critics of BIll C-17 when the animal cruelty provisions were reintroduced as Bill C-15 after an election was called and Bill C-17 died on the order paper. The accommodations did not change the legal test for liability but provided further clarification about the elements of the cruelty offences.

I would like to take this opportunity to briefly review the changes that have been made already to the animal cruelty amendments since Bill C-17 was introduced in the House two and one-half years ago.

Critics of Bill C-17 were concerned that the opening paragraph of the intentional cruelty offences did not set out an express mental element. Even though not required as a matter of law, the section was changed when it was reintroduced into Bill C-15 and retained in Bill C-15B to expressly require that the intentional cruelty offences must be committed either wilfully or recklessly.

The negligence provisions in Bill C-17 were also modified when they were reintroduced in Bill C-15. These modifications were made despite the fact that the Supreme Court of Canada jurisprudence made it very clear that they were not necessary as a matter of law. Nonetheless, in the interests of providing further clarification, subsection 182.3(1) was modified to include the word “negligently” as well as the word “unnecessary”.

The result is that the wording was changed from “by a failure to exercise reasonable care or supervision of an animal, causes it pain, suffering or injury” to “negligently causes unnecessary pain, suffering or injury to an animal”. This modification was made even though proof of criminal negligence requires that the prosecutor must show beyond a reasonable doubt that the actions of the accused constituted a marked departure from the standard of care a reasonable person would exercise in similar circumstances.

Another modification between Bill C-17 and Bill C-15 was to accommodate the concern of hunters that the use of the word “when” in the trap shooting offence might be interpreted as restricting the ability of hunters to conduct penned hunting. It should be noted that in the current animal cruelty offences, the word “when” is used in the English version of the criminal code, whereas “au moment de” is used in the French.

The offence in Bill C-15 was modified to indicate that the prohibited conduct related to shooting animals “at the moment” they were liberated. This wording provides greater consistency between the English and French versions of the criminal code.

A definition of negligence was also added to the negligence offences in section 182.3 to make it absolutely clear that a criminal standard of negligence rather than a civil standard was required.

A further change between Bill C-17 and Bill C-15 was to move the animal cruelty offences out of the part of the criminal code dealing with sexual offences and public morals and into a separate part of the code that deals with animal cruelty offences alone. This change addressed the concerns of critics that it was inappropriate to group animal cruelty offences with offences against persons.

After Bill C-15 received second reading on September 26 of last year, it was referred to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights with a direction that the committee split the bill into two parts. Bill C-15B contains the provisions regarding cruelty to animals and firearms.

The committee heard from a wide variety of groups with diverse views on the issue of animal cruelty. At the committee hearing the Criminal Lawyers' Association confirmed that removal of the animal cruelty provisions out of the property section would not cause accused persons to lose any available defences. The association did indicate that if there was a desire to make this absolutely clear, one of two options was possible: either to make an express reference to subsection 429(2) of the criminal code which outlines the defences of legal justification, excuse or colour of right; or to specifically confirm application of the common law defences set out in subsection 8(3).

Again, in the interests of accommodation and to reassure critics of the bill, the government introduced a motion adopted by the committee to confirm application of subsection 8(3) of the criminal code. To add clarification to the negligence provisions, the committee adopted a government motion to specify the mental element of “wilfully or recklessly” for the offence of abandoning an animal in paragraph 182.3(1)(b) of Bill C-15B, as well as the mental element of “negligently” for the offence of failure to provide suitable and adequate food, water, air, shelter and care for an animal.

One would have thought that following a suggestion of the Criminal Lawyers' Association, as well as further clarification of the negligence offences, would have caused opposition critics of the bill to agree that all accommodations that could be made without changing the test for legal liability had been made.

Unhappily, with the notable exception of the New Democratic Party, this does not appear to be the case. Critics among opposition parties want more. Meaningful accommodations have been made as a result of extensive representations over two and one-half years.

It is time for the House to act. It is time for the House to answer the expectations of Canadians and to move the legislation forward.

[Rick Casson, Canadian Alliance, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Speaker, if the parliamentary secretary wants to act now, I suggest we ring the bells, bring the members in and we can vote. I think one of the reasons we are not doing that is the government is not too sure it could win the vote right now.

Just for a minute, imagine being a primary producer who on getting up in the morning reads the newspaper or turns on the news to learn about a number of issues. There is Bill C-5, the species at risk act that does not offer compensation for landowners. That would be something a landowner would have to worry about. Then there is the Kyoto protocol which the government is considering implementing which would cost 10¢ a litre for fuel. That would add to the costs for the producer and would be something else he would have to worry about. Then he would hear about the European Union which is subsidizing its farmers. That is distorting production and driving the price of the producer's products down and he has that to worry about. Then there is--

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The hon. member suggested the government is not willing to vote on this and suggested we collapse the debate now. If he wishes to collapse the debate now and have a vote, we would be happy to do that.

[The Speaker]

That is very interesting, I am sure, but I do not think it is a point of order. I do not think the hon. member is seeking consent to collapse the debate at this time so we will continue with the speech by the hon. member for Lethbridge.

[Rick Casson, Canadian Alliance, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite when dealing with issues from the agricultural community should remember the old adage about never cussing a farmer with one's mouth full and that there would be more respect in coming to the House chewing on something in order to get into the debate.

To continue, the new U.S. farm bill adds another $4.8 billion per year to U.S. subsidies. That will distort the marketplace and certainly will hurt producers on this side of the border. The country of origin labelling included in that bill would cause anything produced in Canada if it is to be sold in the United States to be labelled as such. The people who will market the products in the United States have already said that they will just separate the two or they will not have Canadian products in their stores. That is another issue our people have to worry about.

A couple of weeks ago the U.S. government put a tariff on incoming steel. The Russians replied by keeping chicken out of Russia. That has started a snowball effect which has driven the price of meat down all across North America. That is something else to worry about.

Input costs, taxes, food safety and the anti-terrorism bill are all issues facing our farmers and then comes Bill C-15B. That is something they are very concerned about.

A full page ad was taken out in the Hill Times by an organization that tried to malign Stephen Harper, the new leader of the Canadian Alliance. It is absolutely unfortunate that money which was probably donated to that organization by people with good intentions was put to that type of use. It is an absolute disgrace.

It is a concern to many that we are allowing a well-organized, well-funded and vocal small number of people to dictate to rural Canadians how they will live their lives and how they will carry out their day to day functions. Of course, their opinion is needed and should be part of the debate but to stoop to that level of discussion is absolutely wrong.

These people have been in my office in the past to discuss issues. I have listened to them and they have listened to me. We have had a pretty good debate, but I am pretty sure what my reply will be the next time that organization phones to have a little bit of this MP's time.

Are we letting a few people dictate to people in our rural communities how they will carry on their livelihood? We have been heavily lobbied on this issue. It is all about the balance. There are people who want the bill passed and there are people who are concerned with some aspects of it.

The underlying message we are getting from everyone, and which our party supports, is that they want the legislation. We need to protect the animals. Anybody who abuses an animal in any way should have the full extent of the law thrown at them.

I want to make sure that people fully understand that, particularly the organization that put the full page ad in the paper today. We have been on the record from day one that we support cruelty to animal legislation. Anyone who abuses an animal in any way should be subject to the full extent of the law.

There are two sides to the issue. We have to be very careful that we come up with a piece of legislation that properly addresses the situation. There is one thing of major concern. I have letters from the Canadian Cattlemen's Association, the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, the Manitoba Cattle Producers, Keystone Agricultural Producers, and Canadians for Medical Progress, who are people concerned with research.

The letters on research are very interesting. One of them is from Pierre Berton, a very famous Canadian. He supports research, as we do. He is very concerned that the bill could affect the type of research needed to bring about cures for many diseases and a better way of life for Canadians. These people have very grave concerns about where the bill could lead us.

Bill C-15B would take the whole animal cruelty aspect out of a certain part of the criminal code and put it into another. This would make the bill a target for well heeled organizations which would challenge absolutely every aspect of it in the courts. It could well change the way producers in Canada are allowed to produce the food we and the world need to sustain life. We must be careful that does not happen.

The new animal cruelty legislation may cause the courts to interpret such offences in a different light. This could have significant and detrimental implications for farmers, hunters and other agriculture producers who are dependant on animals for their livelihood.

The Canadian Cattlemen's Association points out in its brief a number of issues it is concerned with. It asked that the animal cruelty provisions not be moved out of the property section of the criminal code. It also asked that the definition of animal be removed or modified to exclude “or any animal that can experience pain”.

It is these two aspect of Bill C-15B that are causing concern. If we go through the letters of the organizations I have mentioned, almost all of them have the same problem with the bill. These are the issues we in my party are trying to bring to the debate.

The government says Bill C-15B would not affect the hunting industry, the way farmers and producers handle animals, or the way research is carried out. If this is so why will it not put into the legislation a clause or two to put all the fears at risk? We have not seen such a clause. It did not come forward in the amendments. The concerns go on. The government and those supporting the bill should put forward amendments we in our party can support. We can then move on.

Moving the animal cruelty provisions from property offences into a new and separate section could elevate the status of animals in the eyes of the courts. We want to make sure animals are protected. However if moving the provisions brings about a whole new set of court challenges it could prove detrimental to certain aspects of our society.

The new definition of animal is extremely broad. It includes “a vertebrate, other than a human being, and any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain”. This would extend legal protection to a number of living organisms which have never before been provided this kind of protection. There is concern about this. There are people who claim plants and all kinds of organisms have the capacity to feel pain. Are we saying they would be part of this? Whether the government likes it or not, that would be the challenge.

There are many issues I want to deal with but 10 minutes does not allow me to. My colleagues will be addressing some of the others. However I would like to add an amendment to the motion. The end of the motion reads:

--taking into consideration the importance of ensuring that the legitimate use of animals by farmers, sportsmen and medical researchers should be protected under this Bill.

I move:

That the motion be amended by adding:

“and that the committee report back to the House no later than December 4, 2002”.

[The Speaker]

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Battlefords--Lloydminster, Health; the hon. member for Brampton Centre, Armenia.

We are resuming debate on the amendment to the amendment.

[Deborah Grey, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the debate today. We need to spend a few minutes being ultimately reasonable about the whole issue of cruelty to animals. Obviously not one of us in the Chamber would condone such behaviour. It is despicable. When we look at some of the examples with which we have been provided it is a dreadful thing to think anyone would behave in such a way or think it was amusing, helpful or whatever.

If that is all the bill looked at and dealt with there would be no problems or questions from any of the members. However as members can see, Bill C-15B has insidious factors like other legislation often does. We in our party think things should be put in legislation but the government says no, it would rather have them dealt with by regulation. It is a pretty scary pattern we have witnessed from the government time after time.

The amendment we brought forward asks that the government report its findings to the House by December 4, 2002. As members know, sometimes things around here disappear into a great black hole and never surface again. Some of the discussions today, even those by government members, have made us realize Bill C-15B has had several lives. It has not had nine lives but it has had several. It is pretty frustrating to watch because all of us would like to see good, sensible legislation that provides for harsh, swift and sure penalties for those who commit acts of cruelty to animals.

We then get into the grey areas such as not condoning cruelty to animals. We could ask what cruelty means. Some might think it includes beating a dog into shape or the excessive use of force when training an animal. Dairy farmers and cattle producers all have their own definitions of cruelty. I do not think any of us would like the idea of getting a hook through the lip and a club over the head but many sportsmen and fishermen do just that. Mr. Speaker, I know you and I would be quite happy to go out for a seafood supper and enjoy it to the hilt. It is all a matter of definition.

We need a sense of wisdom and reasonableness in the whole debate. There seems to be a backlash from rural members of the government caucus. That is why we said earlier that we should bring the folks in and have a vote on it now. Bill C-15B has had many lives. Yet at the same time it is rather difficult on the government side. We saw the government's bravado in saying bring them in, call in the clowns and let us have a vote. That would be a difficult thing for the government to do right now. Government members are having meetings and there is a lot of concern and lobbying going on.

I mentioned the word lobbying. There has been a enormous lobby with regard to Bill C-15B. Some of my colleagues have already discussed this. I was one of the people lobbied. Mr. Speaker, I know you would find this amusing but of particular concern. Some perfectly decent individuals from an animal rights group came to my office to talk about animals. They asked me if I had a companion. I told them I certainly did. His name is Lew and he is my husband back home. I had to push it a bit further to see what the companion idea was all about.

I do not know if these people ever got around to the word pet. I am rather fond of the word. As members will recall, I lived in the country for many years when I was in the rural constituency of Beaver River. I have had all kinds of pets. I loved them. I treated them well. They were wonderful animals and pets. They were wonderful companions because I lived in the bush on my own. However that is what they were. They were pets.

[Paul MacKlin, Liberal, Northumberland, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. If my ears are right, this is the second speaker from the opposition who has indicated they want a vote on the matter. It is appropriate. Let us have the division. Let us go forward now.

[The Speaker]

As I indicated earlier, I do not think this is a point of order. It seems to me it is a point of debate. Hon. members are always free to allow the vote to take place when they feel like it. The hon. member for Edmonton North has the floor.

[Deborah Grey, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that is right. Being an animal and pet woman I would say sit or stay, but that would be inappropriate for sure.

Looking further at the idea of companions and pets, I love animals and appreciate them. I lived in the country for many years. It was terrific. However to elevate them to even a similar level to my real life companion, my husband Lew, is a bit much. I am sure hon. members would agree.

We are arguing about whether we can say the word pet or animal. Some animal rights people have great frustrations as well. We have noticed this in some of their literature and lobbying. They talk about researchers. I will make it plain for Hansard so it will go on the record forever. In terms of the research we do in Canada regarding disease, let us make sure it is up front and reasonable. Let us make sure it is all those good things. However I want it on the record that I would sooner have testing and research done on pets and animals than on my mother, my sister or someone like that. Let us be real. Let us be reasonable. That is what is research is about.

As I look at Bill C-15B I think of what was said by the former justice minister who is now the health minister and my next door neighbour in Edmonton Northwest. She stated that is what is lawful today in the course of legitimate activities would be lawful after the bill received royal asset. Let us hope so. However if it was not the former justice minister's intention to change what is lawful today, why did she not simply raise the penalties for existing animal cruelty offences? That would make a great deal of sense.

Let us look at some of the penalties. The bill talks about maximum penalties of $5,000 or $10,000 but I think we all know that rarely if ever do we see maximum penalties. We see minimum payments or penalties, discussions, plea bargaining, et cetera, but rarely do we see maximum penalties. We need to be careful.

The problem or one of the problems with Bill C-15B in its current form is not the penalties for animal abuse but the lack of protection of Canadian citizens from unwarranted and injurious legal action. We can see how this stuff would get tied up in the courts. Lord knows we have enough stuff tied up in the courts now. It is the normal protection of the law which any citizen should have a right to expect.

As I mentioned, I lived in the country and had dogs and cats that were free to roam in the bush. That is a good thing for animals to be able to do. When I had animal rights activists in my office we went through the definitions of pet, animal, companion and whatever. I made it clear that I not only loved animals but had several animals when I lived in the bush. Then I moved to Edmonton North. I do not have any animals. I do not have pets while I live in the city because it is a little too restrictive for them. That was my personal choice.

I found out that someone lived in downtown Toronto and had a couple of cats and a dog or whatever. My friend Fritz who runs hundreds of head of cattle would have something to say about pets, animals or companions being cooped up in an apartment in downtown Toronto. My hon. friend from Lakeland knows exactly what I mean when I talk about cattle country in Heinsburg and animals that are free to roam. People who farm out there take it pretty seriously.

My friend Fritz knows every one of his cattle personally. He knows which is which, when they calf and what they give birth to in the spring. Yet he is being criticized for being cruel to animals. He has had dogs, cats and all kinds of pets. He loves them dearly, feeds them well, shelters them and cares about them. He is not impressed by someone having two or three animals in an apartment in downtown Toronto. He would consider that cruelty to animals. He surely would. He would consider it a terrible fate for any animal. In looking at the definitions we could get into all kinds of arguments about who is cruel and who is not, what is appropriate for animals and what is not.

In fact, the dairy producers are very concerned about the bill as well. In response to the Dairy Farmers of Canada, a member of parliament stated:

Farmers, ranchers and others who legitimately use animals should not have to rely on the judgment of individual crown attorneys for protection from animal rights activists. This protection should come from Parliament and be enshrined in the law.

That is where it should be enshrined: in the legislation, not the regulations. Let us not send this through a whole new flurry of court activity where things continue to go round and round. If in fact the bill is attempting to eliminate cruelty to animals, then let us do it but let us not get into so many of these other areas that will go round and round in the courts. Let us go after cruelty to animals and leave out the rest of it.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the debate this afternoon is on Bill C-15B, which is called the cruelty to animals bill and which we have been debating in the House for some time. Many people have approached me and written to me saying that they support the bill because it would help protect animals and prevent cruelty to animals. However, very many also have written, e-mailed and phoned to say that we cannot let this pass because it is going to interfere in their raising of farm animals, or in their trapping business or in their fishing business and so on. I have had many, many calls, letters and e-mails from those people saying that if this legislation passes it will cause very serious problems for them and for their businesses, and for no reason, because they fully respect animals and believe in taking good care of animals. They do not believe in cruelty to animals.

We have had these two parties come forth on different sides of the bill. I would suggest that those who say they support the legislation because they want to help reduce cruelty to animals would support the proposition that I will make to the government right now. If we are truly here to help prevent cruelty to animals, then why do we not right now today throw this bill aside because of all the objections from so many people, farmers and others, and put in place instead a bill that will increase the penalties for those who are cruel to animals? Let us deal with it in that way. It would certainly satisfy those people who have come out in favour of the legislation because they want to help protect animals and prevent cruelty. It would certainly be supported by those people, and it would be supported by farmers and others who are very concerned about this piece of legislation.

Why do we not just do that, just throw this legislation aside and put in place very simple legislation increasing the penalties for those who are cruel to animals? I think we would all be very happy. I doubt if there is one member of parliament in the House who supports cruelty to animals. There are very few people across the country who support cruelty to animals so that is not the issue. The issue is how we in fact prevent cruelty to animals. I suggest that this legislation anything but the solution.

I have a letter from the Dairy Farmers of Canada. I think the dairy farmers have made their points very well when it comes to looking at this from a farmer's point of view. There are many farmers in my constituency. They truly are the backbone of my constituency in terms of the economy and in terms of our communities and they are very strongly against this legislation, almost to a person. One of the things they have said they are concerned about is just what the Dairy Farmers of Canada said. They are concerned about redefining animals which have been and are now defined as property in the criminal code. The dairy farmers are saying that must be maintained. I fully support that, as do farmers in my part of the country. The reason for supporting it is that Canada's agriculture industry is in fact based on the principle of ownership of animals. It is a farmer's legal right to use animals for food production; this stems from his proprietary right in these animals. That is what is in the criminal code now. That is something I fully support.

By moving that definition of animals to a new definition in the act, which is what the bill does, to a new category of special property, I think we are certainly creating problems and so do the dairy farmers. They say that “the Government is changing the legal status of animals” and that puts farmers at risk because it has not been carefully defined and it really will change the way that the courts view animals and the treatment of animals.

The Dairy Farmers of Canada stated, and I think this is an important point, one that the government should pay attention to, that “Humane treatment [of animals] is not compromised by an animal's designation as property” as it is in the act right now. The dairy farmers stated:

The Government could maintain the current status of animals as property under the Criminal Code and still meet its stated goal of this legislation--

They are right.

Why does the government not just do that? Why not just leave the definition the same as it is under the act? That will certainly help deal with some of the problems that we have right now.

The second area I want to talk about is the definition of animal in this legislation. It has to be changed and I will tell members why. Animal is defined in the act as “a vertebrate, other than a human being, and any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain”. That is the way it is stated in the bill. It is hard to believe but it is true. “Any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain” is much too broad a definition. That opens up farmers to potential litigation that is almost unimaginable, but not just farmers. Let us take the example of a gardener in downtown Ottawa or Edmonton who finds a slug in the garden. Slugs are not nice things. The only way I know to control slugs is to squash them, to kill them. That is what people do because slugs destroy vegetables in large numbers.

If a gardener were to do that under this new legislation that is being proposed, I ask the government, could he or she be charged under the act as having committed cruelty to animals? Do slugs feel pain? I do not know. I think they probably do. I would suggest this means that under the act and under this definition of an animal as “any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain”, a gardener in downtown Ottawa, Edmonton or Toronto could be found guilty of having committed a serious crime under the criminal code. Is that the intent of this legislation? I doubt it very much, so let us throw this legislation aside and put in place legislation that will do the job without putting this kind of threat before Canadians in general.

Of course when it comes to farm animals I think there is even more of a threat. We have to take an even more careful look at that. I would suggest that there is no group of people in this country more concerned about animals than farmers. Their very livelihood depends on taking good care of their animals. Nobody is more concerned. In fact, farmers across the country have set and follow high standards of animal care and treatment. They set those standards themselves and they follow them, all but a very few.

Why would we put in place legislation that could end up causing such hardship to a gardener in downtown Toronto or a farmer just outside of Mannville, Alberta? Why are we willing to put this kind of threat over the heads of these people when they have done nothing wrong and when they truly do believe in the best interests of animals? As the previous speaker said, a farmer could have a herd of 200 cows and know the names of every one of them. Farmers know the history of their animals, they care for them and they try to save every calf produced. They care for them in a way that is going to give them the best life possible. That is what farmers do. This law is a true threat to farmers.

The last issue I will talk about because of the very limited time today is the defences that are in the current criminal code: the defences of “legal justification, excuse and colour of right”, as they are referred to. This is currently in subsection 429(2). The Dairy Farmers of Canada say it must be retained and I agree. This is extremely important.

The Dairy Farmers of Canada state:

Agricultural producers must have access to defenses that provide assurances for legitimate animal-based activities--

They must have that assurance and that is lost in this legislation. The statement continues:

Including these defenses [as they are in the criminal code now] would not diminish the stated intent of this law.

In other words, the government could carry out its goal to protect against cruelty to animals without changing that definition.

In fact, the former justice minister said “what is lawful today will continue to be lawful” after this legislation is passed. If that is the case, if we can do under this new law what we could do under the old, why do we not throw all of this legislation aside, which has serious problems that I and many others have referred to, and put in place a simple piece of legislation which states that if people commit cruelty to animals we will increase the fines and people will be subject to very severe penalties? I support that. My party supports that. I think every member in the House would support that. For a change why do we not see some common sense on the part of the government and do that? We would have the problem solved and the issue dealt with in a way that would not threaten the livelihoods and the very freedom of Canadians.

The legislation, if passed, would truly threaten the very freedom of Canadians and especially those who depend on animals for their livelihood.

[Carol Skelton, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to speak to Bill C-15B or the war on agriculture as I call it.

The bill would create a war on agriculture in Canada. The government is creating another hardship for all agricultural producers who deal with livestock. Farmers and ranchers must be made aware of exactly what the government is doing and how the bill, if passed, would negatively affect their livelihood.

We heard today that bureaucrats in the federal agriculture department are questioning bureaucrats in the province of Saskatchewan as to whether there is a possibility of a drought in that province. They are asking if there is dryness on the prairies. This is the kind of vision that the government has of agriculture. Bill C-15B is just another nail in the coffin for agriculturalists across Canada. This is not fearmongering by our party. This is an attempt to show people what the bill would do to all agricultural and livestock industries.

The justice minister said the introduction of the bill would not change things, but I tend to disagree with that statement. Dairy farmers across Canada disagree with that statement. What about chicken farmers in Canada who give us free styrofoam coffee cups, napkins and everything? The bill would affect chicken farmers no matter what propaganda they are told.

The justice minister said that what was lawful before would remain lawful. I dare to differ with that statement. If the bill has no effect, then what is its purpose? The bill would not affect legitimate practices, but it would narrow the definition of what those legitimate practices are.

My husband and I raise elk, bison and deer, one of the most regulated industries in Canada. Our practice is so legislated that there is no way we could ever commit cruelty to any of our animals. Those animals are better looked after than the way some dogs and cats are treated by people in a lot of places. We baby those animals. I have bottled fed bison calves and an elk calf. That elk cow is now five years old, and still comes to the fence when I call her. When I ask Gracie to come give me a kiss, she runs to the fence, gives me a big kiss through the wire fence, and I pet her and scratch her. We look after our animals. Bill C-15B would have a huge effect on any animal based business in Canada.

Animal rights groups have said that to be proven effective this legislation would have to be challenged in court. Farm families I know cannot afford to take anyone to court because they are clutching to survive. Farm families I know do not where they will get money to put the next meal on the table. Both people of farm families I know are working off the farm all day, come home and farm at night. They cannot afford court challenges, but that is what lies ahead for our agriculture industry. Working Canadians cannot afford to fight battles against well funded activist groups.

My colleague's motion would see wilful and reckless actions as guidelines for prosecution. It would help to protect farmers, ranchers, researchers and others with legitimate animal based occupations from numerous prosecutions.

The Canadian elk industry is going through difficult times right now with the CWD outbreak in Canada. The only way that scientists can study the disease is by taking blood tests from live animals. If that were outlawed there is no way that we would ever find a control or find out how the disease is spread. We must keep scientists away from prosecution.

As in Bill C-5 the government is content to categorize all actions as criminal. There must be protection in place for those who use animals legitimately. My colleague from Lakeland said that the dairy farmers of Canada are the most conscientious of all farmers.

I appeal to the government to listen to their concerns. It should talk again with the dairy producers of Canada. They will tell the government what they are feeling. They feel this is a threat to their whole industry.

We must protect our livestock producers. The agricultural industry has been abandoned by the government. Legislation such as Bill C-15B would do additional damage to an already struggling industry. Moving animals from property offences to the criminal code leads us away from animal welfare into the land of animal rights. This is a scary proposition for many Canadians who use animals for legitimate purposes. The definition of animal in the legislation needs to be changed. The current definition is far too broad. It is too inclusive and would lead to problems for law abiding citizens.

A leisurely day of fishing could now be met with court challenges, for example, a fisherman picking on a fish. I would like to tell people in Ottawa or Edmonton that they may not go fishing on the weekend. I have seen numerous boats coming from Alberta to our northern lakes in Saskatchewan. If we were to stop them from fishing, our province would be in worse shape than it already is.

The government would like to assure Canadians that petty things like that would not happen. The legislation however would open the door for exactly this scenario. The government's blatant pandering to special interests groups is horrific.

A letter from the Animal Alliance of Canada is a perfect example. It states:

Bill C-15B, which makes changes to the animal cruelty section of the Criminal Code, recognizes for the first time that animals are not just “property”, but rather being in their own right...I can't overstate the importance of this change...It started in the last federal election. Because of a commitment by the (previous) Minister of Justice in the House of Commons to pass Bill C-15B (we) campaigned for her re-election. Under attack by hunters and gun owners and a cabal of extremist right wing groups, (she) was in a losing campaign. (We) stepped in and championed her election...(she) won by 700 votes.

Instead of championing for the stability of law abiding animal based industries and businesses the government caters to a special interest group. That is unbelievable.

My colleagues and I in no way support cruelty to animals. However we do support law abiding Canadians who are involved in animal based businesses and industries. We cannot support the bill as it stands. It seriously jeopardizes Canadians from engaging in legal, moral and ethical animal practices. The Secretary of State for Children and Youth spoke yesterday about the fur industry and how much good it did for Canadians. We must stop and look at this. The government must look at the broader picture and the repercussions the bill would have on industry, instead of its blatant pandering to lobby groups.

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak to Bill C-15B with deep regret. I and a lot of people in the country cannot understand where the government is going with these kinds of issues. It seems like it has some kind of vendetta against agriculture. I and the people who produce food cannot understand where this is coming from and why the government seems to be so much against people who produce food.

This is not the first time. Bill C-5 is still before the House and is on the same track. There is a lot of window dressing. The government pretends to be sincere about protecting endangered species. What actual protection is it offering?

[An hon. member]

It would make it worse.

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

In fact it would have the opposite effect as my colleague has just said. Bill C-15B seems to be taking dead aim at a hard pressed agricultural industry that does not seem to have any support from the government in any way at all.

Farmers are under stress from agriculture commodity prices being very low. That is caused by huge subsidies taking place in other countries around the world. The government's answer is that it will not get in there, mix it up and protect them in trade agreements. The Liberals have said they are not interested in helping agriculture.

The GATT and the World Trade Organization came to some kind of an agreement in 1994 to reduce agricultural subsidies by only 15% over six years. The Liberals on the other side were reluctant to sign off on that. In fact they wanted to protect the supply managed dairy industry, the textile industry and the cultural industry with huge subsidies.

Here is a sector of agriculture, especially the grain and oilseed sector, that is going down the tube because the government offers it no protection. First, the government will not enter into subsidies for it. Second, the government will not enter into trade agreements that restrict others from using subsidies to devastate Canadian exports around the world.

There is a lack of support for agriculture in the subsidy business, which I can understand and support, but the government will not open up things like the Canadian Wheat Board. It will not allow competition in the transportation industry to let farmers take advantage of at least some market opportunities. The government puts roadblocks in the way at every turn and now we have had two bills before the House in the last couple of weeks that would result in huge problems for the agricultural industry in the country.

The government tells us in Bill C-15B that it would not be a problem. We know that there are some people who exploit and are cruel to animals. There are provisions there to handle that right now. We know that people are being charged. One person that probably might have been charged was a minister of the government who left the car windows up a few years ago in over 30 degree heat with an animal inside. That minister could have been charged but no charges were laid.

Now the government wants to move this forward and insert codes in Bill C-15B that could be open to interpretation. I think of my own brother who has 1,500 head of livestock in the beef industry in the Peace River riding. I see a huge industry in the Peace River riding trying to diversify, trying to find some way to continue to exist under the pressures of a government that will not support them in any way. What do they get? They get more regulation from the government. It makes it difficult.

What about the cattle industry? What about the issue of how these codes could be interpreted? Ear tags is one of the things that is happening. It is a method of identifying a herd in case there is an outbreak of disease to trace it back and stop that disease in its tracks. Ear tags could be considered to be cruel to animals, as well as the dehorning of animals.

[Deborah Grey, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton North, AB]

I have ear tags.

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

As my colleague from Edmonton North reminds me, even people have ear tags. I am not sure why ear tags for animals are a problem but they very well could be construed to be cruel. I am sure castration would be cruel, and it goes on and on.

Under the new bill, animals will be moved out of the property section. There will be a shift in status, impugning legal rights, quasi-judicial status, almost human status. It is absurd and is designed by a bunch of people who seem intent on driving the agricultural industry into the ground.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

They like eating.

[Charlie Penson, Canadian Alliance, Peace River, AB]

Yes, they like that but they do not know where it comes from nor do they really care, as long as there is food on the table. However do not let that poor farmer have the chance to earn a living. It seems as though they are throwing roadblocks in the way of agriculture at every opportunity.

This opens the doors for authorized organizations to challenge legitimate animal use. I want to quote from one of those organizations. A recent statement--

[The Speaker]

I would suggest the hon. member for Peace River save his quote for the next time he has an opportunity to speak on the bill. He will have a good four minutes the next time the bill comes before the House. Unfortunately, much as the House might like to hear the quote at the moment, I am afraid we have to move on.

It being 5.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.