Debates of April 8th, 2002

Passing of the Queen Mother

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to express the sincere condolences of members of our coalition to Her Majesty the Queen, Prince Philip, their children and grandchildren on the death of Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother.

We also celebrate her long and remarkable life and contribution. The Queen Mother's 101 years traversed the 20th century, times of turmoil and war, times of transformation and of extraordinary human and social progress. She moved with grace, with courage and with humour through them all.

The Queen Mother will always figure in our memories as a symbol of courage and deep devotion. Throughout her life she won the hearts of her people and of people around the world with her warm smile, extended hand, and words that came straight from the heart. At a time marked by crisis and controversy, she arrived like a breath of fresh air.

From the outset, during that critical time, her unswerving support for her husband, and the example she set herself defined new standards of leadership. As a result, she became closer to all of us than any of her predecessors. She lived a life dedicated to her duty, a model of dignity. She leaves us now, known as a grandmother to us all.

Canadians will always remember the joys of welcoming her here. During her numerous visits, many of us had the good fortune of seeing her and being touched by her warmth. She always maintained close, even informal ties with Canada. Canadians, in return, always welcomed her as a member of the family.

She was loved and admired beyond the borders of the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth for her grace, devotion, and great courage.

Her Majesty the Queen Mother will never be forgotten.

Her first memorable visit to Canada was in 1939. In total the Queen Mother came here 11 times and touched the lives of generations of Canadians. She served as Colonel-in-Chief for the Black Watch, with the Toronto Scottish Regiment and the Canadian Forces Medical Services. She was the Grand President of the Victorian Order of Nurses in Canada, an honorary member of the Law Society of Upper Canada and patron of many national organizations including the Canadian Red Cross Society and the Canadian Merchant Navy Prisoners of War Association.

Her Majesty's strength during the second world war helped stiffen the backbone of Great Britain during those dark days. The film footage we have watched over the past week of the King and the Queen walking through the rubble of bombed out London shows her devotion to her fellow citizens, her devotion to duty and her courage in the face of adversity. Beyond that royal and official role her impact as a sensitive and caring human being was palpable to all who met her and was unforgettable to those she touched directly.

If the House may allow one personal recollection, in May 1979 one of those rare and extraordinary events occurred in Canada. A general election actually changed the Government of Canada. The Queen Mother had an event in Halifax to which invitations had been issued well before election day. To say that the invitation list did not reflect the election result would be to understate the case.

My spouse, Maureen McTeer, attended the Queen Mother's reception and events on my behalf. That was a time when Maureen McTeer's own use of her own name was not universally approved. Several of the guests at the luncheon, coming from both another party and another time, delighted in referring to Maureen consistently as Mrs. Clark. Not the Queen Mother. As Maureen walked her to her car, the Queen Mother touched her arm and said “I always tell my grandchildren that they must be themselves and do what they believe is best in life. Just be yourself”. Then she said “Don't let them get you down, Ms. McTeer”.

The Queen Mother was a powerful and courageous symbol. She was a wonderful and sensitive person. We extend to the Royal Family our most sincere sympathies and our prayers during this time of sadness.

[Jim Abbott, Canadian Alliance, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I count it an exceptional privilege as a member of the Canadian House of Commons to stand here to pay tribute to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, known to the world as the Queen Mum.

She was the mother of our present sovereign, Queen Elizabeth II, but the Queen Mother showed us that a woman does not have to be a mother to become a grandmother. A grandmother is a loving, kind, strong, resourceful, dedicated, disciplined human being who imparts important values to those she loves. The Queen Mum truly was a royal grandmother to the world, and what an exceptional person she was. As nanny to us all she won the hearts of millions around the globe with her warmth and sympathy.

The Queen Mother made her last trip to Canada in 1989 to mark the 50th anniversary of the 1939 royal visit that was so important in solidifying the continuation of the house of Windsor. After stepping out of the same 1939 Buick convertible that had carried her and her late husband during their visit 50 years earlier, she was greeted by a crowd of 10,000 people on Parliament Hill. In a short address in both official languages the Queen Mother said:

I rejoice that the bonds of friendship between Canadians and the Royal Family have become even closer, perhaps in part because they have grown year by year more personal.

Canadians remember the former Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon with affection as evidence of the special bond that she forged with Canada. She said:

I lost my heart to Canada and to Canadians, and I assure my sentiments have not changed with the passage of time.

In 1939 she first toured the country with her husband, King George VI. Thousands of Canadians lined railway tracks for a glimpse of the royal couple. Gesine Stone, mother-in-law of one of my staff has a cute story about that trip.

Two years ago she was cleaning out some old photos and came across a black and white picture she had taken when she was in nurses training at Vancouver General Hospital. It was a picture of the Queen Mum with King George in an open car touring downtown Vancouver.

For this young farm girl from Saskatchewan being in Vancouver and seeing the King and Queen was a pretty big happening. Mrs. Stone decided she would get the picture blown up and sent a copy to the Queen Mum at Clarence House early last year with a little story about the picture taking. Surprise of surprises, she got a response from London in a special envelope with a royal seal from the Queen's lady-in-waiting acknowledging and thanking her for taking the time to send the picture.

Let us make no mistake. The Queen Mum was also a pillar of strength. During the war a crazed intruder had hidden in the Queen Mother's bedroom behind a curtain. When he leapt out and grabbed her by the ankle she was cool as a cucumber, calmly listening to the man's tale of woe until she was able to ring a bell for help.

When in South Africa with the King in 1947 a man lunged at their open Daimler. He grabbed hold and would not let her go. It turned out he was trying to give Princess Elizabeth a gift but no one knew about that then. While the King shouted at the chauffeur to accelerate, the Queen Mother performed the remarkable feat of holding the man at bay with the point of her personal parasol in her right hand while she continued to wave regally to the crowds with her left.

In Westminster last week MPs recalled anecdotes of a high spirited woman with a wicked sense of humour. Paying tribute to the Queen Mum's sharp edged sense of humour, Prime Minister Blair told the story of the same royal visit to South Africa when she was confronted by a disgruntled Boer War veteran. “I can never forgive what the English did to my people“, the man told her. The Queen Mother replied, “Oh, I do understand. We in Scotland often feel just the same”. She showed strength by example. The Queen Mother did what needed to be done when it needed to be done.

As we all know she and Princess Diana were estranged for years before Diana's death in Paris. In the tide of mourning that swept Britain after Diana's death, the Royal Family did not play its cards at all well. It was not as clear as it needed to be that the Royals shared the people's grief. Was monarchy irretrievably out of touch? Many thought so and once again began calling for an end to it. The Queen Mother's soldiering on with her duties can only have reassured Britain that the monarchy still had worth. In spite of her severe differences with Diana, the Queen Mother knew what she had to do and she did it.

The sight of that very old woman walking so painfully into Westminster Abbey for Diana's funeral, the familiar smile so remarkably fresh and sincere, spoke volumes about a rich past of devotion, steadfastness and honour. For the Queen Mother the monarchy was more important than her differences with Diana. She did not let past differences deter her from doing what was right.

The Queen Mother was fortunate too, having an amazing physical condition right to the end, or was it her sheer personal determination? The Queen Mother once famously told an aide “If you ignore an illness it will go away”. For much of her life she was able to prove that. She was 101 when she passed way, remarkably healthy and engaged until her final days.

The Queen Mother had been in declining health since last Christmas when she developed a bad cough and severe chest infection. What will never be known is what effect the death of her 71 year old daughter Princess Margaret on February 9 had on her remaining will and spirit.

In recent days advisers reported she had remained perky, if increasingly frail, still able to follow her beloved horse racing news from a wheelchair. In spite of her amazing age headlines around the world said it all: “We all felt we knew her”.

As the Queen Mum she won over legions of fans from the post-war generations. She charmed them with her wild hats and her reported enjoyment of a gin and Dubonnet or two, and she conducted herself with a mixture of dignity and self-deprecation that somehow kept her free from the sting of scandal which diminished other members of the Royal Family one by one.

The appeal of the Queen Mother cut across international boundaries and class barriers. She was often referred to as everyone's favourite grandmother.

John Aimers, dominion chairman of the Monarchist League of Canada, said it was her ability to reach out to the people that made her so popular. “She sought nothing for herself, never losing her royalty, never becoming familiar. Yet we could all identify with her”, he said.

As a counsellor and a friend, a personification of both the monarchy and its humanity, she made a personal connection. Every one of us felt we knew her. Mr. Aimers said it was her relaxed yet regal style that endeared her to so many. He said:

She never reinvented herself, didn't have spin doctors or image consultants--she was utterly herself. She gave pleasure to others and, my goodness, that was her agenda, and in a world where so many people have agendas for the me and the my...she stressed the we, the us, the sense of community and getting along with people.

The Queen Mum above all was a very special person. In spite of her position she did not make people feel uncomfortable. As a matter of fact quite the opposite.

In 1987 she helped celebrate the 125th anniversary of the Black Watch of Canada of which she was Colonel-in-Chief at a posh Montreal hotel. When the ball ended she heard music coming from a nearby room and asked what was going on. Someone said there was a high school prom and she said “Oh, let's join them”. The kids were just stunned. She was the queen of fun. From her daily gin and tonics to her love of parties the Queen Mum had an effervescent enthusiasm for life.

Harold Nicolson, then charge d'affaires at the British embassy in Berlin, met the Yorks when they stayed at the embassy on their way back from a wedding in Norway in 1929. He found her “delightful, incredibly gay and simple. It was a tragedy that she should be royal”.

Chips Channon, a Chicago born British MP whose diaries are a lively chronicle of London society in the 1920s and 1930s, described her this way:

Well-bred, kind, gentle and slack, always charming, always gay, pleasant and smiling, mildly flirtatious in a very proper, romantic, old-fashioned Valentine sort of way. She makes every man feel chivalrous and gallant toward her.

While always socially correct, she knew how to tweak things and still be perfectly proper. Once a guest sitting on the couch with her dropped a biscuit into his tea. He was mortified and did not dare fish out the biscuit with his fingers in her presence. She giggled and told him she was going to turn away from him for a few seconds to attend to something, and of course she could not see what he did when her back was turned.

Prince Charles, her first and favourite grandchild, once said “She belongs to the priceless band of human beings whose greatest gift is to enhance life for others through her own effervescent enthusiasm for life”.

She was the belle of the ball of her post-first world war generation, though on her own terms. This was the time of the flapper, the cocktail swilling women with bobbed hair and loose morals in some parts of society, but she remained, even in her youth, resolutely old fashioned. She was never a prude.

It was reported there were many gay men on her staff who she affectionately referred to as “my knitting brigade”.

According to a well known anecdote, she once called down to the servants' quarters at Clarence House as the cocktail hour approached saying “I don't know about any of you queens down there but this Queen up here wants a drink”.

She loved the outdoors, could fly-fish with the best of them and was not afraid to back a loser at the track.

Through it all, one of the most endearing and enduring images of the Queen Mother was that of a passionate sportswoman who loved nothing better than to check on her race horses or head to the countryside for an afternoon by the river dressed in Wellingtons and pearls. Her love of the outdoors and the sporting world was legendary.

Warmed by the odd glass of gin, the Queen Mother would make frequent visits to the stables even on the coldest of days to check the horses and watch them train.

In warmer weather, however, she liked trudging along the riverbanks to enjoy one of her other favourite sports, fly-fishing. The Queen Mother enjoyed trout and salmon fishing and could wield her fishing rod with the pros. For a time she was also the patron of the Salmon and Trout Association.

She was particularly fond of fishing on the River Dee and was long a familiar figure along the riverbank with her corgis, Billy and Bee, at her side. Occasionally she would startle the odd angler who, looking up from his or her rod, would find themselves in the company of royalty.

Believe it or not, it was only when she turned 85 that Prince Charles finally persuaded his grandmother to stop wading out into fast running streams. This was said by Arthur Bousfield who has written extensively about the Queen Mother. He said “They were afraid she would fall over and be carried away. It was evidently with great reluctance that she finally gave it up”.

British liberal democrat leader, Charles Kennedy, also a Scot, remembered the Queen Mother as fiercely energetic even in her nineties. Having dinner with her one evening he noticed her personal detective, who travelled with her everywhere, was deeply asleep in an armchair. When the man awoke he told Kennedy with embarrassment “The problem is I'm just exhausted. I simply cannot keep up with her.

The newspaper headline says it all so well, “Few have given so much, to so many, for so long”.

This is a death that need not be mourned. I see the remembrance of the Queen Mom as a lesson for us all. Everyone of us is getting older day after day. As we see our roles in life changing, as our family and friends move away and as our situations evolve which one of us from time to time has not felt just a little bit useless?

Maybe we are the mum or dad who used to be essential to our children's well-being. Maybe we are the reason why a church group, a neighbourhood block watch, a service club or a youth organization used to happen. Life has gone on. Life is passing us by and perhaps we indulge in a little self pity. Who cares? Who needs us anyway?

The Queen Mother was a grandmother to the world without giving birth to the world because she cared and she shared. A grandmother is a loving, kind, strong, resourceful person dedicated and disciplined. She is a human being who imparts important values to those who she loves.

When my staff member's mother-in-law, Mrs. Stone, got her reply from the Queen's lady in waiting she shared it with her friends. Many seniors' lives were made just a little bit brighter because of the thoughtfulness of the Queen Mum. Mrs. Stone and her family will have a treasure forever.

The Queen Mother's life and now her death causes me to reach out, to be real and to enjoy life but above all I want to be a great-grandfather.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I want to rise and with humility offer my support to the sentiments expressed in the motion currently before the House. I very much associate my remarks with the poignant and insightful sentiments expressed by previous speakers.

The people of Nova Scotia and of Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough share with all Canadians and do indeed lament the death of Elizabeth the Queen Mother. Coming as it does so soon after the death of Princess Margaret, there is added reason to express our genuine and deep sorrow for the Queen.

As well, as the Queen herself has said, there is comfort to be taken from a long life lived to the full. That the Queen Mother continued to enjoy her life to the full until its end is also cause for celebration. That the Queen Mother set a shining example of public duty throughout her life is equally cause for celebration. That the Queen Mother chose to help us preserve our Scottish heritage is cause for celebration. That the Queen Mother kept faith with those who gave their lives in war is cause for celebration. Her unwavering support for British, Canadian and allied forces in times of war and peace is a testament to her resolve and regal human nature.

Eighty-five years ago today Canadian troops were engaged in a battle at Vimy Ridge. Eighty-five years ago Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, having lost her bother in the bloodbath of Flanders, was caring for casualties of war in her home which had been turned into a hospital. As a young teenager born to a life of entitlement, she chose duty and responsibility. That is cause for celebration.

Above all, the Queen Mother and His late Majesty, King George, raised a daughter who reigned within our constitution and laws for half a century. This is cause for celebration.

It is for those reasons that we express our sorrow to our Queen and her family who have lost a mother, a grandmother and a great-grandmother. We lament the conclusion of this magnificent life.

Tomorrow, after the captains and the kings depart, when the crown that adorned her coffin is returned to the jewel house, there will remain a human ache in the heart of a daughter who has lost within a few weeks both a sister and a mother.

While some may not readily identify with the jewels and the pageantry, all of us have known or can anticipate the feeling of loss of a parent, and the poignant sight of a wreath of white roses inscribed “In loving memory, Lillibet”.

Her Majesty should know that here in the Queen's Canadian parliament there is great sympathy and great gratitude.

[John M. Cummins, Canadian Alliance, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to convey to Her Majesty the Queen our condolences regarding the death of Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother.

Much has been said over the past week in the media, in assemblies of worship and in parliaments of the Commonwealth around the world reflecting on the long life of Her Majesty the Queen Mother. I am deeply honoured today to pay tribute on behalf of the people of Delta--South Richmond.

While many of my colleagues in the House and many Canadians have reminisced on the visits of Her Majesty to Canada and what she has meant to us over the past century, I would like to add a reflection on a phrase used by the most notorious figure of the past century. During the dark days of World War II, Adolf Hitler called the then Queen Elizabeth the most dangerous woman in Europe. It seemed he knew that Her Majesty had something that could not be defeated.

Why did he think she was so dangerous? She did not hold any political power. She did not command armies. She was not even born into royalty. The quality of this consort of the King was common enough to all of us. It was her common decency, sense of duty, care, friendliness and smile.

However it was her unique destiny in history that gave her an opportunity to do a tremendous amount of good, and good she did. Duty by itself can be dry and heartless but the Queen Mother was determined to stay with her people through one of the darkest periods of the war. Her visits with the King to factories, bombed homes, hospitals and military bases were done with genuine kindness, empathy and sincerity, which in turn boosted morale and resolve to the determined population, who together with their allies would win the war.

The Queen Mother was indeed a dangerous woman with her smile and kind words of encouragement. She loved her country and her country loved her. No political power and no army could defeat that. In these troubled times that sounds so simplistic but it was not simplistic. It was simple. She cared deeply about people and they knew she did.

These past few days, since the start of the lying in state on Friday, we have witnessed this love in the many thousands who have paid their respects at Westminster Hall in London. People from Britain and around the world have been queuing up patiently well into the night and waiting many hours for an opportunity to say goodbye. Many have been heard to saying “She never let us down and we will not want to let her down. She was there for us and we want to be there for her now”.

We know that she had a genuine affection for the people of Canada and it has been very evident over these past few days as Canadians remember the high esteem in which she was held by many of us. After all it was, I believe, in Canada that she was first called the Queen Mum. Canada also claims to have had the first royal walkabout. The 1939 visit to Canada of the King and Queen was the visit, as the Queen said, that made them.

Not a few blocks from where I am standing today there is evidence of the triumphant visit of the King and Queen at the Supreme Court of Canada building and the War Memorial. Canada it seemed, true to our friendly Canadian character, embraced her as our own.

The Queen Mother had a special regard for Canadian soldiers throughout the war. Her association with Canada continued as she had been the Colonel-in-Chief of the Toronto Scottish Regiment since 1937 and was later, after the war in 1949, made Colonel-in-Chief of the Black Watch, the Royal Highland Regiment of Montreal and the Canadian Forces Medical Service in 1977. Numerous other organizations have also benefited from her patronage and presidency.

Yes, Canada's relationship with the smiling Duchess who became a Queen was warm and friendly and she will be missed. The Queen Mother's life was blessed with longevity, a long and enduring love for people and an abiding faith in God. The world was indeed blessed in return.

Now with the House I offer my deepest condolences to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth and her family and convey the sentiments of the House to the United Kingdom as they lay to rest the Queen Mother.

Rest eternal grant unto her, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon her. Amen.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

I declare the amendment put forward by the hon. member for Mercier to be in order.

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the constituents of Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca, I would like to express my deepest and heartfelt condolences to the Royal Family and the people of Great Britain on the death of the Queen Mother.

While I am a proud Canadian citizen, this issue is somewhat personal for me because I was born in England and spent my early years there. I have vivid memories and recollections of the Royal Family. The Queen Mum still at that time was one of its most prominent members. That was not so long after World War II. The connection the Queen Mum displayed and had with her people was in many ways cemented during that difficult time in Great Britain.

I remember British citizens who lived through the bombing. One of their most vivid recollections of the Queen Mother, who instead of living in the safety and cloistered environment which she was privileged to as a member of the Royal Family, was that she chose to go out among the people during the devastation that was wrought on London during the bombing.

When she went out on the streets and touched the hands, the hearts and the lives of average British citizens, she cemented an affection, a love and a relationship with not only the British citizens, but with people from all over the world, especially in Canada. She sent a message that while she was a royal, while she was part of the monarchy, she was still British and she would stand with them shoulder to shoulder against tyranny.

Throughout her life she displayed grace and selflessness. She was an example to which many people from across the world looked. The Queen Mum displayed many of those ideals from a generation that is long gone, ideals that are still important in our society today but are sometimes difficult to find.

Although the Queen Mum is dead, we will always remember her. We will remember her for her grace, her class and her elegance. Above all else, we will remember her for the connection, the love and affection she gave to citizens around the world.

On behalf of the constituents of Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca and my colleagues who have not had an opportunity to speak, we wish the Royal Family our humblest condolences, and to the Queen Mum, God speed.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung:

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

At the request of the chief government whip, the recorded division is deferred until 3 p.m., after oral question period.

The House resumed from March 20 consideration of Bill C-15B, an act to amend the Criminal Code (cruelty to animals and firearms) and the Firearms Act, as reported (with amendment) from the committee, and of the motions in Group No. 1.

An Act to Amend the Criminal Code (Cruelty to Animals and Firearms) and the Firearms Act

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in the last six minutes that I have to speak to this issue, I want to let members know that it is an issue that is extremely important to farmers, industry workers and people in the medical field. Some grave concerns have been expressed by these people about the bill and I will talk a bit about some of the specifics later. Right now I want to speak in general terms about their concerns.

I would suggest that many groups support the intent of the legislation. They agree with and support the objective which is an increase in penalties for offences relating to animal cruelty. Most groups support that objective. Even though there have been minor improvements made to the legislation, the bill requires significant amendments which have not been made to deal with some specific issues, a few of which I will mention.

If I could pick out one concern from this legislation in terms of the most important changes being proposed, that concern would be moving the animal cruelty provisions from those of a property offence, which is the case in the current legislation, to a new and separate section. By elevating the status of animals to a new and separate status above that of property, clearly substantial changes are being made to the way the law would treat animals and the way courts would treat animal cruelty.

I think most Canadians fully support protecting animals against cruelty. That really is not the issue here. Canadians widely support that concept. Members of my party strongly support that concept. However when animals are taken out of the part of the law dealing with property offences, then some very serious concerns come up. They have not been dealt with by the group of amendments we are debating today.

The new definition of animal is very broad. Not only does it elevate the status of animals, it also broadens the categories as well. It includes an extremely broad definition which says a vertebrate, other than a human being, or any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain. The category for these cruelty to animal offences has been broadened to any animal that can feel pain. I would defy the very government that has put this legislation in place to tell me to what animals that specifically applies.

The government is willing to put a law in place when it cannot possibly define to which animals the law applies, and there is grave danger in that. It does not make any sense to me. If the government cannot determine to which animals this law would apply, then how are people who deal with animals supposed to determine that? How broad could it go? How are people supposed to know to what this applies? The government should not put a law like this in place when it cannot define in a more specific way to what animals the law would apply. That is certainly one of the grave concerns that groups, including farmers, have with this legislation.

Just how bad this legislation is can be best demonstrated by looking at what the former justice minister said when she was talking about this piece of legislation. She said:

--what is lawful today in the courts of legitimate activities would be lawful when the bill receives royal assent.

She is saying that if it is lawful today to do these things, as a farmer for example, then when the bill passes it will still be lawful.

If that is the case and she wants to get tougher on cruelty to animal offences, then why on earth did she not just raise the penalty? She said it would not cover anything different. If she wanted to make it tougher, why did she not increase the penalties for the offences that are in place today? That would clearly do the job.

The former justice minister was being less than forthright in making a comment like that. It does not fit in. It does not compute. It does not make any sense. On the one hand the minister is saying that the new law will not apply to anything other than it applies today. The simplest and most obvious way to deal with that would be to increase the penalties. The government did not do that and I can only guess why. The government has not given a clear vision or view on that.

It would seem that the intent of this legislation goes well beyond the intent of the current legislation. Farmers and people who do medical research, which is so important to finding the cure for diseases such as cancer, have many good reasons to be concerned about the legislation and the changes that were made.

For eight years I have worked on having an effective form of gopher control returned to farmers. The Government of Alberta is finally providing this form of gopher control to farmers this spring, which is encouraging, under an emergency registration. If this law passes, farmers will have to worry about whether they can use that product to effectively control gophers without being found guilty under the law. I have concerns about that.

The amendments which should have been made have not been made. It is important that we support some of the amendments in this group.

[Jim Abbott, Canadian Alliance, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would reflect what my colleague has just said. Clearly there is a concern about the abuse of animals. There is not one member of the House of Commons who is not concerned to see that steps are taken for proper protection of animals, but it is not quite that simple. The difficulty is that in this law we are opening up to attack a lot of people who own animals, whether they are domesticated animals or animals which are farmed.

I would like to read a couple of comments from people who love the kind of wording that is included in the legislation. The California based animal rights organization In the Defence of Animals, IDA, launched a campaign called “They are not our property; we are not their owners”. According to the IDA website the campaign proposes nothing less than to change society's relationship with animals. The following few quotations indicate that the campaign has strong support among animal rights activists. The quotations also reinforce the argument that the concept of property is fundamental to understanding the animal rights agenda.

Lynn Manheim, a columnist for Letters for Animals said:

Ultimately there can be no real progress until society undergoes a paradigm shift, a new way of looking at the world which opens the door to new systems of interacting with it. We have seen most strikingly with the women's movement, language plays an essential part in such a shift. Establishing legal rights for animals will be virtually impossible while they continue to be called and though of as “its” and “things”.

Alan Berger, executive director of the Animal Protection Institution said:

Animal Protection Institute is pleased to endorse IDA's They are not our Property...campaign. Society's perception of animals as property must be changed before legal rights for animals can be established. The time is right to make such a change.

This one is from Kristin von Kreisler, author of

The Compassion of Animals:

IDA's They are not our property campaign will prod us along in our moral evolution. Just as we have moved beyond “owning” people after the Civil War, we now need to move beyond “owning” animals, who deserve a far greater understanding in our society than simply being treated as property or things.

This is one from Jane Goodall of the Jane Goodall Institute:

In the legal sense, animals are regarded as “things”, mere objects that can be bought, sold, discarded or destroyed at an owner's whim. Only when animals can be regarded as “persons” in the eyes of the law will it be possible to give teeth to the often fuzzy laws protecting animals from abuse.

Let me repeat the objective of this particular activist: Only when animals can be regarded as persons in the eyes of the law will it be possible to give teeth to the often fuzzy laws protecting animals from abuse.

Those are the people and the organizations the government is not taking into account. The wording of its legislation is simply not precise enough to stop this kind of fuzzy headed thinking.

This quote is from Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, author of When Elephants Weep and

Dogs Never Lie About Love:

How can we own another person? We cannot. Why then should we think we can own another being, a dog, a cat or a horse? The law may tell us we can, but the law also told us in the past that men owned their wives, parents their children, slaveowners their slaves. I now realize how wrong it is to consider myself an animal “owner”. Language is no trivial matter, how we use it affects how we think and then how we act.

We can no longer own a dog, a cat or a horse. Perhaps this person would also like to give them the vote. I do not know. This is another quote:

I looked up the word “property” in the dictionary. It said, “a thing or things owned”. To me, this makes it clear that, by definition, animals can never be considered property. A “thing” cannot love. A “thing” cannot act from compassion. A “thing” will never risk its own life to help a stranger or even a friend.

This is so fuzzy it is almost, in my humble opinion, slightly humorous. But it is not humorous because we are talking about the lives and the livelihood of people who are involved in the agricultural industry.

We are talking about the potential effect of criminal prosecution against anybody who owns an animal. As human beings we can own animals. Let us be clear, that is exactly where I am coming from.

When we look at the various motions by the member for Selkirk--Interlake that clause 8 be deleted, if we are unable to pass the amendments that are required to prevent harassment prosecutions of farmers, ranchers, medical researchers and all other Canadians who use animals for their livelihood, we should delete the entire animal cruelty section. That is where we are coming from. We must be more precise.

There is another motion we will be opposing. It is Motion No. 4 by the member Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough--Aldershot which states:

That Bill C-15B, in Clause 8, be amended by replacing line 5 on page 3 with the following:

“other animal that has the capacity to experience pain.”

We are opposing it because the amendment simply changes the definition of animal from a vertebrate other than a human being to any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain, with emphasis on the word feel, a vertebrate other than a human being and any other animal who has the capacity to experience pain. We are opposed to either definition as both broaden the term “animal” in the context of criminal code offences.

We are aggressively opposed to Bill C-15B for the simple reason that it opens the door to fuzzy headed thinking about the ownership of animals and the ability of people to work with animals within our society in the humane ways in which they are presently working with them.

Again I want to make it perfectly clear that every member of the Canadian Alliance and I as the member for Kootenay--Columbia are concerned about the potential abuse of animals, livestock and domestic animals. We are all concerned about that. However the proposed law does not cut it. It is far too imprecise. That imprecision will open the door to the potential criminal prosecution of people in my constituency and any other rural constituency where people are dealing with domesticated animals or livestock.

The member for Selkirk--Interlake has moved Motion No. 5 which states:

That Bill C-15B, in Clause 8, be amended by replacing line 7 on page 3 with the following:

“who, wilfully or recklessly, and in contravention of generally accepted industry standards,”

The amendment is designed to better protect farmers, ranchers, medical researchers and others who depend upon animals for their livelihood from nuisance prosecutions by animal rights activists. Any member in the House, anybody reading Hansard , anybody watching this debate on television who does not believe that the bill will not open farmers, ranchers and dog owners to the potential of criminal action as a result of the activity of animal rights activists probably does not know what day of the week it is.

The former Minister of Justice called on a number of amendments that will actually straighten out a certain amount of this badly flawed bill. We are not in opposition just to be in opposition. In fact with respect to Motion No. 6 the opposition will vote in favour of the government's amendment to its own bill. It takes some tiny steps toward resolving this imprecise situation of which I spoke.

We have gone over the bill with a fine-toothed comb. On balance, unfortunately there is a tremendous amount lacking and a tremendous amount of potential danger within Bill C-15B.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I compliment my colleague who just spoke and also my friend from Lakeland who spoke a minute ago on their speeches. They touched on many of the concerns the Alliance has with Bill C-15B.

I want to point out that in a way Bill C-15B underlines the misunderstanding or the lack of appreciation that the government has for farmers and ranchers in Canada. This is one of many pieces of legislation and initiatives that the government has taken that really make it difficult for farmers to make a go of it today.

I refer to the endangered species legislation which would not properly compensate farmers and ranchers whose land would be taken out of production because of the legislation. This comes at a time when farmers are already in straitened circumstances. I refer to Kyoto which potentially could have tremendous negative consequences for farmers and ranchers. I refer to the government's unwillingness to address the drought situation in the prairies and the lack of a suitable farm safety net that would allow farmers and ranchers to make it through tough times when European and American farmers are receiving heavy subsidies that distort the market.

On top of all of that this really causes me to wonder whether or not the government understands what is going on in rural Canada. It seems to be completely insensitive on the issue.

My friend mentioned the problem of gophers on the prairies. I can assure members that this is a real problem. A couple of years ago a farmer just outside of Seven Persons, Alberta called to say he was being overrun by gophers. Times were tough on the farm and he complained about putting seed in the ground only to have swarms of gophers consume everything he had planted. It is difficult to deal with that kind of situation without the support of government.

In Alberta there is a real move to deal with the problem of swarms of gophers that cause all kinds of destruction not only to crops but leave holes that cattle step in and break legs, and cause destruction to underground wiring and so on. Many people are concerned to start to deal with the gopher issue the way that they have always dealt with it in the past which is to use poison in some cases or shoot them in other cases.

They are concerned that the government will be lobbied hard by animal rights radicals to stop that activity which they need to do to protect their livelihood. It is quite common for farmers to protect lambs at lambing season against predators such as coyotes and foxes. They need to know that they can do that and not fear being pursued by the government because radical animal activists have been pushing the government hard on this issue.

In northern parts of the country ravens are a problem. They go after the eyes of newborn livestock. Farmers and ranchers need to know that they can protect their livestock and property and that the government will support them. The government has failed to make its intentions clear by not allowing us to pass some of the amendments that the Canadian Alliance had proposed.

We are very concerned that the government is mixed up in its priorities. It seems to be on the verge of granting all kinds of rights to animals at the behest of radical animal activists while at the same time making the livelihood of farming and ranching very precarious. We urge the government to keep this in mind when it proposes to pass Bill C-15B. Other members on the government side who will speak to this come from rural areas.

I note for a fact that they are hearing from farmers and ranchers in their areas. I hope they will have the courage to stand and let the government know that it is unacceptable to start to raise the rights of animals up to the same plane as those of human beings. We are hearing that kind of rhetoric from animal activists.

Members must remember it is not unrealistic to suspect that animal activists will push very hard to take whatever crack that the government gives them in the legislation and pursue it in the courts to make it very difficult for farmers and ranchers to do what they need to do. We need to remember some of the statements that they have already made about going hard after government backbenchers who do not support their point of view. They have made public statements along those lines.

We also know that they have condoned violence and have used violence. They have acted as terrorists, blowing up trucks that belong to fish companies, for instance. They have done all kinds of things to protest the idea that people can own animals and that animals are not on the same plane as human beings.

We know what these people are willing to do and have done in the past. The government is playing far too much to their agenda by going as far as it has gone with Bill C-15B.

Canadian farmers and ranchers want one sign that the government is sensitive to the situation they are in today. So far in the House I cannot think of a single piece of legislation in the nine years I have been here where it has shown some awareness that there needs to be reform that favours farmers and ranchers and is not always against them.

[John M. Cummins, Canadian Alliance, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Mr. Speaker, at the outset I will make it clear that my party supports stiffer penalties for animal cruelty and is against animal cruelty. It is an issue of concern to us. However the direction the government has taken is clearly wrong. There are other ways to achieve its objective.

I will give an example of the danger that could befall us if we follow the direction the government has taken. Recently in Denmark a fishmonger was convicted and fined $150 in court for having a live fish in his stall. This is the possibility that exists when we elevate the status of animals from property into some sort of nebulous, quasi-human status. What would the penalty be for a fisherman who caught a fish on a hook and brought it in? Obviously the animal is under stress when that happens. What would happen if a fisherman caught a fish in a gill net and the fish smothered, which is what they do in gill nets? Would the fisherman be brought forward in court and fined on that basis? Who knows?

The concern goes beyond that. There is concern in the agricultural community. The parliamentary secretary to the minister of agriculture has suggested the concerns are of no effect. He and the government assure us we do not need to worry about inappropriate interference in the agriculture business not to mention the fishing industry if Bill C-15B is brought into place. However there is considerable concern in the agricultural industry.

I will read into the record a letter by Leo Bertoia, president of the Dairy Farmers of Canada. The letter is directed to the Prime Minister. It is interesting that the president of the Dairy Farmers of Canada would go beyond the agriculture minister and the justice minister and make his point directly to the Prime Minister. He states:

Dear Prime Minister Chrétien,

The cruelty to animals section of Bill C-15B places Canada's dairy producers at unnecessary risk of prosecution for engaging in normal animal handling practices. Dairy Farmers of Canada recommends that three changes be made to the Bill to ensure that farmers can continue, without extraordinary legal burdens and intrusions, to provide top-quality, safe, and affordable food for Canadians.

1. The current status of animals as “property” in the Criminal Code must be maintained.

Canada's agriculture industry is based on the principal of ownership of animals: a farmer's legal right to use animals for food production stems from his proprietary right in these animals. By moving the cruelty to animals provisions out of the special property section and creating a new section, the Government is changing the legal status of animals. This shift could lead to an unprecedented risk of prosecution of farmers who use animals for food production, as a farmer's right to use his animals would have to be reconciled with the new status of animals under the Criminal Code.

Humane treatment is not compromised by an animal's designation as property. The Government could maintain the current status of animals as property under the Criminal Code and still meet its stated goal of the legislation, which is to increase penalties for animal abuse and neglect.

1. The defenses of “legal justification, excuse and colour of right” that currently exist under subsection 429(2) must be retained.

Agricultural producers must have access to defenses that provide assurances for legitimate animal-based activities and businesses. Including these defenses would not diminish the stated intent of the law. Former Justice Minister Anne McLellan repeatedly met farmers' concerns with the statement that--

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The hon. member knows the minister cannot be referred to by name. She must be referred to her as the former minister of justice.

[John M. Cummins, Canadian Alliance, Delta—South Richmond, BC]

Sorry, Mr. Speaker, I was quoting directly from the letter and I appreciate that. The dairy farmers go on to say:

Former Justice Minister...repeatedly met farmers' concerns with the statement that “what is lawful today will continue to be lawful”. If the government wants to ensure this, the defences currently available should not be removed.

The third point the dairy farmers make is the definition of animal cruelty in the bill must be amended.

Defining “animal” as “a vertebrate other than a human, and any other animal that has the capacity to feel pain” is too broad. As it is written, Bill C-15B threatens to subject farmers to protracted litigation as meaning is given to this definition through judicial interpretation. More importantly, this broad definition is not necessary to achieving the Government's goal of legislation.

The dairy farmers go on to say:

Prime Minister, no group of people in this country is more concerned about animal welfare than agricultural producers. Farmers set and follow high standards of animal care and treatment, and we believe those who neglect or viciously kill animals should be punished with the full force of law. However, Bill C-15B moves far beyond punishing those who neglect or viciously kill animals. The Bill unnecessarily elevates the legal status of animals and puts powerful legal tools into the hands of animal rights activists to lay animal cruelty charges against producers. At the same time, the Bill takes away defenses that should be available to farmers who responsibly produce Canada's food.

The three changes we have suggested will ensure that the law is fair and just, and will in no way detract from the Government's goal of increasing penalties for animal abuse offenses. I trust you will give careful consideration to these concerns, and on behalf of Canada's dairy producers, I thank you for your attention to this important matter.

The letter is signed by Leo Bertoia, president of the Dairy Farmers of Canada.

I believe that the president of the Dairy Farmers of Canada makes a compelling case for changes to the bill. I think the last thing we want, and I would suggest that it is not the intention of the government, is to have farmers brought before the courts on frivolous charges of abuse. However it is implicit in the bill that that is a possibility.

It is also a possibility that fishermen and others who handle animals in the prosecution of business could in fact be brought forward on charges of cruelty to animals for doing what is normal and expected business practices. They are not practices which are intentionally hurtful but they are the usual practices of either agriculture or fishing.

I urge the government to reconsider the bill and to take into consideration the changes that have been suggested by the Dairy Farmers of Canada and by my colleagues in the Canadian Alliance.