Debates of June 14th, 2002

Government Contracts

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, in the year 2000, at the instigation of the former deputy minister of public works, the government conducted a solid internal audit with respect to the sponsorships program to identify where the procedural and documentation errors were within that particular program.

Since that time an action plan has been taken to address the errors and mistakes of the past. That action plan was implemented on a step by step basis and a further verification this spring indicated that corrective action had been taken.

National Defence

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, after announcing that he will delay the release of the DND ombudsman report, the defence minister announced that the report of the investigation of the so-called friendly fire deaths of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan will not be available until the Americans say so.

A report made by Canadians for Canadians should be released when it is ready. Why is the minister withholding information from the families of the soldiers killed until the Americans give their okay?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, we are in constant touch with the families but the issue here is really a no brainer. We do not know for sure but it is possible that the Americans will want to take disciplinary action against one or more individuals. We also know that if we release our report in advance it might jeopardize the Americans' ability to go after the individuals who caused the death our soldiers. Is that what the opposition wants?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is saying the first thing that comes into his head. He would have us believe that a report produced by Canada, for Canadians, would impede the course of American justice. This is ridiculous.

Why is the minister refusing to release the report? Can the government guarantee that the Americans will not see the Canadian report before it is becomes public in Canada?

[John McCallum, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, the reports are completely independent. There is no question of the Americans influencing our report. None at all.

As I have just explained, we do not wish to jeopardize the Americans' ability to take disciplinary action against certain individuals.

Government Contracts

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, last night the Prime Minister offered some partial predictions about what he called the rest of his mandate.

In the rest of that mandate how many more millions of dollars does the Prime Minister expect will be stolen in the sponsorship and advertising programs? How many more ministers does he expect to have to put in witness protection programs in Denmark or elsewhere? How many more public servants will be advised by their lawyers not to testify when parliament is seeking the truth?

[David Collenette, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I am surprised at the language used by the right hon. member in this case. He is a man of great experience. He has smeared an entire government and a Prime Minister who has served this country with distinction for eight years.

We have led this country through difficult times. The Prime Minister has been there. He has been one whose integrity cannot be impugned.

The right hon. member should withdraw those comments and withdraw them right now.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, this government smears itself day after day.

The government gave Groupe Polygone $330,000 for a sports show that never took place. Now CBC reports that the government paid Polygone twice to place ads in a magazine Polygone owns.

The minister of public works said last week that he would use every means available to force Polygone to repay money it received improperly. Would he consider asking his colleague, the minister of immigration and former vice-president of Polygone to go to his former employers and ask them to pay the public's money back?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, the methodology suggested by the right hon. gentleman is obviously not appropriate.

I have indicated to the House that I intend to get to the bottom of these matters and to pursue all legal means available to the Government of Canada. Those means are likely to be more effective than that suggested by the hon. gentleman.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Ran Quail, the former deputy minister at public works, said yesterday at the public accounts committee that the $40 million spent every year on the sponsorship program was not on the radar screen and did not pop up as a problem area. It was too small for him.

Forty million dollars may not matter to the Liberal government but it sure matters to hard working Canadians who have squeezed till they squeak to come up with the cash.

My question for the minister of public works. How many millions of taxpayer dollars have to be wasted, lost, funnelled to loyal Liberals and so on before it shows up on his radar screen?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, if one were to do a very simplistic analysis it would appear that the sponsorship programs represents less than half a percentage point of the business transacted in my portfolio.

However, whether it is large or small, regardless of the size, it demands the highest standards of transparency, accountability and value for money. That is my responsibility and I intend to deliver on that responsibility.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, as the minister said, the highest amount of integrity, accountability and so on.

We heard testimony yesterday at the public accounts committee that these people may even have received a raise while they were breaking every rule in the book.

Can anyone imagine that by breaking every rule in the book they get a raise and performance bonuses for doing that?

Does the minister agree that there is something rotten in his department if he hands out raises to his staff who break every rule in the book?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, obviously serious errors have been made with respect to the sponsorship program. Those were first revealed through an internal audit that was conducted by my department. Corrective actions were begun in the year 2001. They have accelerated through the year 2002. These problems are serious, they must be corrected and I am determined to find the answers that will satisfy Canadians.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, after the example of Groupe Polygone, we could give another example of this marvellous system of related companies billing each other.

Media IDA Vision was responsible for authorizing payments made to its sister company in Groupe Everest.

The latter pocketed a commission of 12% for the daily management of the sponsorship, and could also hand out subcontracts to related companies, while taking an additional 17.65% commission.

Since Media IDA Vision was already being paid 3% to defend the interests of its client, the government—

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. I am sorry but the question has exceeded the time allowed. The hon. Minister of Public Works and Government Services.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I think I know the direction in which the hon. gentleman was heading with his question.

There are two basic answers. I have already indicated that for work of this nature I do not like the commission system and that I will in future be developing a system that will allow this kind of a program to function without the intervention of outside agents.

With respect to the combined ownership, my predecessor already took action to deal with that.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in boxing terms, we could say that the minister was saved by the bell. But the question remains.

Since Media IDA Vision was already being paid 3% to defend the interests of its client, the government, what would make anyone think that it could effectively defend the government's interests and, at the same time, authorize payments to its sister company in Everest?

That is really helping yourself.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, again I would say that my predecessor took steps to begin addressing this issue of joint ownership among companies.

The real solution for the future lies in what I have said to the House on many occasions, beginning on, I think, the very first day I was in this portfolio, which is that we need to develop a delivery mechanism for the sponsorship program that does not use outside agencies.

Aboriginal Affairs

[Brian Pallister, Canadian Alliance, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the government has massive governance difficulties. It has a tendency toward secrecy. It has a centralized power structure. It has questionable accountability practices. It has an enthusiasm for rewarding friends.

Today Canadians will be subjected to the humourous spectacle of the government telling aboriginal leaders how they should govern.

We acknowledge that there are challenges for first nations governments, and so do first nations leaders, but this government has failed for a decade to get its own house in order.

I ask the government: Is this not a great example of “Do as I say, not as I do?”

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, it just shows how weak the Alliance is. It has not even read the bill and yet it has already passed judgment.

[Brian Pallister, Canadian Alliance, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I think that shows how weak the government is.

The vast majority of Canada's first nations leaders share the Canadian Alliance concerns about improving governance. They have taken specific steps and real measures to improve governance. Yet the Liberals showed absolutely no respect whatsoever for democratically elected aboriginal leaders in its so-called consultations that led to this act.

The Canadian Alliance wants to work in partnership with aboriginal leaders. We want to build on a foundation of mutual respect. Why did the government choose to disrespect--

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

[Bob Nault, Liberal, Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

Mr. Speaker, I am sure you recall Nisga'a as well as I do, where we spent almost two days voting on frivolous amendments by the Alliance Party. I do not think this party and this government has to take any lessons from that party over there.

Dealing with aboriginal rights and improving the quality of life of the aboriginal people is exactly what the government intends to do.

Government Contracts

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, over the past two years, the vast majority of senior managers at the Department of Public Works and Government Services have received performance bonuses. Yet, the 2000 internal audit report contained devastating conclusions about the incompetence of managers and irregularities in the sponsorship program.

Will the Minister of Public Works and Government Services explain to us the exact criteria that are used for these bonuses?