Debates of June 19th, 2002

Criminal Code

[Georges Farrah, Liberal, Bonaventure—Gaspé—Îles-De-La-Madeleine—Pabok, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as I told to my colleague from St. John's-West in committee yesterday, I have had a rather frank discussion about the strategy put forward by the committee.

The Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans works in a very objective manner, not a partisan manner. Personally, I have always had a very serious concern about the possibility of imposing rules at the international level when our own waters are not affected. This is the problem confronting us. I have no difficulty telling my colleague that I have raised this issue that concerns me.

Despite all the goodwill in the world, I am not convinced that we can impose rules unilaterally at the international level. This is why we must continue to work hard to convince our partners, in order to preserve a very important resource, particularly for the development of the maritimes and Newfoundland.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, today I asked the minister—and I got an answer from the parliamentary secretary—about the urgency of finding a solution to the ferry problem between Les Escoumins and Trois-Pistoles.

The cause of this problem is the inaction of the Department of Transport, which has not maintained the wharves properly. We are desperately looking for a temporary solution to salvage part of the tourist season and for a permanent solution to bring the federal government to invest, as a good owner should do, to renovate the wharves and to restore full ferry service.

Today, in answering my question, the parliamentary secretary said that safety was the number one priority for the department. Safety is obviously important, but the ferry service between Les Escoumins and Trois-Pistoles is also important to the tourist industry and to the transportation industry on both sides of the river.

Right now, the inaction of the federal government is resulting in considerable economic losses, particularly in light of the fact that the Compagnie de navigation des Basques received in May, a six-day notice to the effect that the tourist season was compromised, while photos have been showing for years that this wharf is being washed away. We are still waiting for an answer.

Thankfully, the parliamentary secretary said today “We hope to reach a compromise that will be beneficial for all users. I am very confident that we will find a satisfactory solution”.

I know that there was a meeting today at 11 a.m. in les Escoumins. The meeting was still not over at 5 p.m. Can the parliamentary secretary tell us if the work will be done, so that a part of the season will be saved?

This problem did not just crop up this morning. It was raised in September 2000 by 52 municipalities in my riding who, together, told the federal government that it needed to repair the wharves. Back in May 2000, the Minister of Transport informed the Compagnie de navigation des Basques that the repairs would not be done to the wharf. There was even a letter signed May 23 by a public servant that said he could not authorize the use of the wharf.

Thankfully, we spoke to this in the House on a number of occasions; a delegation from Les Basques came and met with the Minister of Transport on June 4; we also wrote letters, with the member for Charlevoix, to get the Minister of Justice, who is responsible for Quebec, to do his job and influence the Minister of Transport. I know that these interventions provoked a reaction in the eastern Quebec caucus of the Liberal Party.

Will we be able to announce to the public today that there will indeed be an agreement and that there will be ferry service? In my opinion, it is entirely up to the federal government. Therefore, the negotiations should not be this difficult.

We need to implement a temporary solution, but also come up with a final decision. Can the parliamentary secretary, on this lovely summer day, promise the people in the region that they will be able to use the ferry? I know that there are two other ferries, but they do not solve the negative economic impact of the fact that the ferry cannot operate. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport will give me an positive answer right now.

[André Harvey, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, first I want to thank the hon. member for raising this extremely important issue. I am definitely not the one who will criticize colleagues for raising issues that are important to all our communities.

This is indeed a long-standing issue. Transport Canada authorities responsible for safety were informed of the situation back in April, but they could not evaluate the condition of the wharf when the ice had not yet broken up. Therefore, they had no choice but to decide, with the Compagnie de navigation des Basques, that the wharf was inaccessible in its current condition.

I fully understand why the hon. member did not allude to safety criteria in a sarcastic way. Safety is extremely important to us. Operations cannot resume if we are not sure that safety criteria can be met. If the Department of Transport authorized the reopening of the wharf and a major disaster occurred because we did not take our responsibilities or were afraid to assume them, we would be strongly criticized. This could even impact on the activities of the other ferries between Rivière-du-Loup and Saint-Siméon, and between Forestville and Rimouski, the other two locations where ferry services are provided between the two shores.

Meetings are currently taking place. I hope that a solution, albeit a temporary one, will be found, allowing us to maximize safety. Unfortunately, this is not the case right now. All I can say is that, in recent years, the sum of one million to two and half million dollars was invested, to maintain operations in the area and at least make the infrastructure safe.

Unfortunately, at this point, I cannot confirm to the hon. member that a decision has been made in co-operation with stakeholders, the Compagnie de navigation des Basques and the Department of Transport, which is responsible for safety in this matter.

I hope that negotiations will be successful and that, in the next few days, if not in the next few hours, we will be able to reach a compromise that will allow us to reopen the season.

It is extremely difficult for departmental officials. We have technical staff on site, engineers who are specialized in these types of operations. I understand the difficulty in authorizing operations to salvage the tourist season if safety cannot be absolutely guaranteed. However, the problem raised by our colleague is extremely important.

I must mention that, in this case, the great majority of users, 80%, are tourists who have other alternatives, at least in the short term. They can use the two other ferries. It is not a satisfactory answer for my colleague, but that is where we are at this point. People are working hard on this issue. They are aware that the tourist season is very short in the region, as in all our regions. People are working hard to try to find a compromise.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would remind the parliamentary secretary that there are photos showing very clearly that the current deterioration is not the result of last winter. For years now, the federal Department of Transport has known that the wharf would drift away if major repairs were not done. I understand that people are hard at work right now trying to fix their mistakes.

Various solutions are possible, including a barge system. Has any one solution been decided on? Having admitted that there will be an economic impact on tourism if the Department of Transport does not achieve the necessary results to ensure that the ferry is operational for the summer season this year and in years to come, can the parliamentary secretary promise compensation? The restaurants operating on either side of the wharf are no longer making a cent, even though there are ferries at Rivière-du-Loup and Rimouski.

Can he assure me that the maximum effort will be made to implement one of the temporary solutions, so that there will in fact be a ferry service before the summer is over? My major fear is that if there is no service this summer, it will spell the death of the ferry. Can the parliamentary secretary give me an assurance?

[André Harvey, Liberal, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the assurance I can give my hon. colleague is that the Minister of Transport himself and Transport Canada officials are very concerned about this situation. People are trying to find a satisfactory, short term solution. It is not easy, if we are to truly assume our responsibilities and do everything possible to ensure that the safety criteria are respected.

So much the better if a short term solution can be found. I hope that in the coming hours or days, at least a short term solution to the problem can be found. As for the long term, the minister is obviously going to keep working with the community to find the best possible solution.

[Loyola Hearn, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Mr. Speaker, the question I asked the Minister of Finance, for which I was not pleased with the answer, was in relation to the financial arrangements surrounding revenues from the Voisey's Bay project. The question could apply to any resource development project in our province or several other provinces.

Before I get into the debate and allow the parliamentary secretary to respond, I would suggest to him that when we raise such issues we often get the same blanket response. If it is with respect to health care funding we are told there is a formula based on per capita. If a province's population is dropping we are told it is its own tough luck. If it is with respect to equalization we are told there is a complicated formula that involves all provinces across the country and that making changes would be extremely complicated.

I do not want to hear that. We have heard it over and over. When will the government become original? I urge the parliamentary secretary to throw away the answer that was prepared for him and come up with original ideas to help provinces get on their feet so they can contribute to the country.

The Voisey's Bay development has started to move. The government and the company have agreed to a non-binding statement of principles. I am not sure what a non-binding statement of principle means, how solid it is or what effect it will have. However as we speak a major debate is going on in the house of assembly of Newfoundland which will undoubtedly colour what happens.

We do know that 95% of any royalties coming from the project, we understand they will be about $10 million a year which is not a lot of money for a big project, will be clawed back by the central government. This will leave Newfoundland and Labrador with 5% of the royalties or half a million dollars a year. That is one dollar a year for every man, woman and child in Newfoundland. That is what we will get in royalties from the Voisey's Bay development.

The government says that is the way it is. I know that is the way it is, but is it is not the way it should be. The government needs to look at where the resource rich areas are in Canada. Most are in the have not provinces which are only now starting to develop their resources, as in the case of oil in Nova Scotia or oil and minerals in Newfoundland and Labrador.

The government should do what it did when Alberta started developing its resources. For the first five, six, eight or ten years it should let the provinces keep their royalties to invest in infrastructure. We would then no longer be have not provinces. We would be have provinces which could contribute to the country to help create the type of confederation we should have.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question from my hon. colleague, although if I heard him right initially I thought he had also determined the answer. I hope that in fact is not the case, because as one who has visited Newfoundland and Labrador on at least seven occasions I think I can speak with some understanding of this, particularly of the communities in Newfoundland and Labrador.

First I certainly want to say that we are pleased that the province of Newfoundland and Labrador, INCO and aboriginal groups have in fact reached agreements that will make it possible for the Voisey's Bay project to proceed. The government certainly welcomes the jobs and prospects that major development offers the people of Newfoundland and Labrador.

In terms of the suggestion that equalization prevents provinces from benefiting from their resources, it does not reflect reality. The recent Voisey's Bay announcement is certainly evidence of that. The criticism of equalization is not merited when we consider the purpose of the program.

What is equalization? It is found in the constitution. It is to ensure that all provincial governments, all of them, have sufficient revenues to provide reasonably comparable levels of public services at reasonably comparable levels of taxation. I think all Canadians support that. As the member knows, there will be a review of this coming up in April 2004, I believe, when the federal government and the provinces will be discussing this.

In other words, equalization ensures that all provinces have access to a standard level of revenues.

With the development of Voisey's Bay, Newfoundland and Labrador revenues will grow due to royalties and increased personal and corporate taxes. The province will keep every penny of revenue it earns from the project. The federal government does not claw back any provincial revenues.

It is a fact, though, that as Newfoundland and Labrador get richer, lower equalization payments will be required to ensure that the province has access to the national standard level of revenues. That is the way the program is supposed to work. That is the way it was envisioned. The common standard ensures that all provinces are treated fairly.

We sometimes hear that equalization is a disincentive to development because it erodes benefits to provincial treasuries. This claim obviously, in the view of the government, does not stand up to scrutiny. First, it is the private sector that drives most economic activity. We have seen that in this situation. Equalization is not a factor in private sector decisions. Second, provincial governments, including the province of Newfoundland and Labrador, have strong incentives to encourage development. Economic growth creates jobs and higher incomes and lowers the cost of social programs. It allows provinces to replace federal transfers with own source revenues. Equalization receiving provinces themselves have consistently stated that equalization is not a disincentive to development.

Looking at creative solutions, when the federal and provincial governments come back every five years to review the situation, there will be an opportunity, and I have no instant answer for the member today, to put all of this on the table for what will be, I am sure, some very interesting and creative discussions.

[Loyola Hearn, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member. I got the answer I knew I was going to get. Equalization means that the poor will always be poor, as it is presently structured, and we just hope that the rich will remain rich because the minute that Alberta and Ontario see their economies changing and dropping then the rest of the country suffers also.

What we are talking about is a deal outside the equalization formula to give provinces an incentive to develop resources and give them that incentive to invest in resource development so that they can become contributing partners. It does not take rocket science to figure out that there is a way around it. The problem is the will.

The resources in Newfoundland are developed for the people, and for the people of Canada, I would say, because Thompson, Manitoba, and Sudbury will benefit just as much or more than Newfoundland. Everybody else is getting a share except the provinces that own the resources. It is very unfair.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Oak Ridges, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate the member feels that was the answer that he had expected. The fact is, I think I clearly outlined the role of equalization. We are very pleased at what is happening in Voisey's Bay. We think it is going to be very important for the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. The fact is, it is an excellent opportunity for resource development.

If in fact the member has some suggestions that he feels should be incorporated, there will be an opportunity and there will be a time as we look at the whole issue of the equalization formula. I would invite and encourage the hon. member to participate in that discussion.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 6.49 p.m.)