Debates of June 4th, 2002

Supply

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Chairman, in this list of programs sponsored by the federal government, we see a lot of radio flashes related to the agrifood industry, the environment, hunting and fishing. That is what my colleague from Chambly was saying earlier.

I spend a lot of time in my car and I hear the Government of Canada wishing me a good trip, telling me to drive safely, to eat sensibly, to have a nice bicycle ride, to have a good partridge hunt on the 28th when the hunting season is practically over, and so on.

If you listen to Les amateurs de sport , from 4 to 7 p.m. on Radio Media, you will hear dozens of these flashes. The minister said earlier that he had put an end to all that. It is not true. These ads can still be heard on the air. There is $1,154,000 for agrifood flashes, the same amount for environmental flashes, and so on.

That does not exist anywhere else except in Quebec. Why do Quebecers and nobody else in Canada need to be told to have a good trip, to have a nice bicycle ride or to have a good partridge hunt? How can the minister explain that the Government of Canada has run these ads only in Quebec?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, I indicated earlier that the type of advertising the hon. gentleman has referred to is now explicitly excluded from the criteria of the program. The complaint that he has expressed is one that the government identified earlier, and we have taken corrective action.

In terms of specific projects that receive sponsorships, the hon. gentleman has indicated his objection to some types of projects. I would be interested in his views on a couple of other projects, like the projects known as Rimouski en blues and Tour de l'Île d'Orléans à la nage. I have letters of representation from members of parliament in the Bloc Quebecois supporting these projects and I wonder if he would support them as well.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Chairman—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Pierre Brien, Bloc, Témiscamingue, QC]

If members wish to hear my answer, perhaps they could at least listen. I am certain that many events in small communities have much more merit than coming to the assistance of the Montreal Expos, the Montreal Canadiens, the Ottawa Senators, the Toronto Raptors, or the Vancouver Grizzlies.

I am sure that the public will find that there was more merit in helping small community projects than professional sports, where those involved earn in the millions.

That is my last question, because I know that time is running out. In the House, the minister was very surprised when we told him that the federal government had bought advertising space in L'Almanach du peuple at a cost of $500,000 a year, when the government of Quebec had paid 35 times less for the same amount of space.

I do not know whether he will remember this but he was told in the House that the government of Quebec had paid 35 times less than him for the same advertising space. This goes back ten days or so. He has just taken up his new position. I can understand that it has taken him a certain amount of time to get up to speed.

Where is he at with the audit of contracts handled by Groupe Polygone, which cost the federal government 35 times more than they cost the government of Quebec? Where is he at with that? In this case, there was no RCMP investigation, it was not referred anywhere, and it is completely scandalous that this much money was spent.

Where is he at with his audits concerning the specific case to which I am referring today?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, I believe that the particular case the hon. gentleman raised in his question, having to do with the advertising in Almanach du peuple, will in fact be one of the areas in which the auditor general will be inquiring as she does her government wide review with respect to advertising and sponsorship issues.

However I would point out that my predecessor took the decision to terminate that advertising because in his view, I think correctly, he felt that it did not fall within the proper definition of sponsorship. The promoters behind that idea were referred to other types of government programs for which they may qualify. They made some inquiries and found out that they were not eligible there either so that initiative no longer exists.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance]

Madam Chairman, we have heard a lot in the House about ethics. Ethics of course is a code of conduct, how we as individuals conduct ourselves whether in business, industry, government or in whatever profession we might be. We have heard often, I think with reckless abandonment, comments made in the House about ethics. Clearly we all learn ethics when we are very young. We learn what is right and what is wrong.

When one uses a wide brush and says that government is unethical, one is not only smearing and attacking the institution of government but also smearing and attacking the servants of government, whether they be elected officials or members of the civil service. I think we need to make that very clear.

This minister is in charge of Public Works and Government Services Canada. We have heard significant attacks on the issue of ethics in that department. I note that the Conference Board of Canada, hardly a biased organization, has recognized the minister's department as a leading edge organization for its ethics programs.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

What does the auditor general say?

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Oak Ridges, ON]

I am sure the House would be very interested in what this ethics program contains, how it is applied and how it is developed in ensuring that the highest ethical standards are there, keeping in mind that in any organization there are going to be some bad apples.

The fact that we have a program in place which was recognized by the Conference Board of Canada speaks volumes. I would interested to hear the minister's comments on that.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, ethical behaviour is a topic that should be treated seriously and it is important to every member of the House. It certainly is to me. I am very pleased that my department has very recently been recognized by the Conference Board of Canada as a leading edge organization for its explicit ethics program. In my early briefings by departmental officials last week that was one of the programs that was drawn to my attention. I am very glad that the department does have that very explicit program.

As the question was being asked, someone called out from somewhere in the House and said that that may be what the conference board thought but what did the auditor general think. The auditor general has described the ethics program of Public Works and Government Services Canada as very sophisticated.

The ethics program is intended to provide a framework to guide and improve the ethical conduct of employees by promoting awareness, leadership, decision making and action in the field of investigation. It is important to concede where there are areas of difficulty and to pursue the solutions to those difficulties aggressively.

As I said earlier this evening, my department in a typical year does something in the order of $4 billion of business on behalf of Canadians. The complaints that have been raised over the last number of weeks and months have related to one particular program that involves a budget of about $40 million. That is $40 million on an expenditure base of $4 billion. That is 1% and I think it is important to keep things in proportion.

Having said that, let me make it clear that whether the issue is big dollars or small dollars, every penny counts and it is very important for high ethical standards to apply whether it is a big contract or a little contract, a big issue or a little issue. We must all bear in mind the ethical principles that should guide us.

I am very pleased that my department has a formal policy with respect to this matter and that it has been recognized both internally and externally for the efforts that it is making. I certainly intend to advance that cause within my department and to build upon the ethics foundation that is there.

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Oak Ridges, ON]

Madam Chairman, I appreciate the comments of the minister. It is important to put some of these issues in perspective. When we talk about ethics, it is important to relate it to what we are doing. Being proactive is extremely important whether in government or whatever particular endeavour one is in.

It is important for colleagues to keep in mind that one thing about being proactive, whether it is a company or a government it, is getting the message out to explain what kind of services are available to the public.

I do not want to get into a yelling match with my colleagues across the way because clearly they have more experience at yelling than I have. However it is important that we talk about the fact that in getting that message out, we as a government, and particularly the minister's department, put out a brochure last year on which many of my colleagues and I have received comments from our constituents. It was called “Services for Youth”. It was guide about the type of services provided by the Government of Canada. It had nuances in different parts of the country in terms of the types of programs that might be available.

By putting this out, the Government of Canada was trying to indicate very clearly that it was here for Canadians, that it had services for them and that it wanted them to respond. People will not know what programs are available if they do not have the information. People criticize the government and say that they do not know because the government does not tell them. Therefore we are telling Canadians and Canadians have responded.

Could the minister tell us how they responded? Could the minister talk about the objectives of this publication? What were some of the outcomes that the government was looking for in terms of this guide? How much did it cost? Is there an evaluation mechanism? How do we evaluate these?

As members of parliament, when we send something out, whether it is a news letter or householder, we know the kind of response to a survey. Sometimes we know certain things will work. Sometimes they will not. Therefore it is important when we send out a publication that we are able to evaluate it and say that this has worked and it is effective but in other areas it has not worked. How do we make sure that we get value for dollar?

One thing that I think all members of the House agree with is that it is important when we are dealing with taxpayer money that we get value for the dollar. Could the minister explain that? I would appreciate it and I am sure my colleagues would as well.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, the publication in question is called “Services for You”. It was a national guide to the services available to Canadians from the Government of Canada. It was mailed last November to 11.7 million households in the country. The guide cost $4 million in total to print and distribute. That works out to 32¢ per copy to better inform Canadians of the many services that the Government of Canada offers them.

At about two-thirds of the cost of a first class stamp this initiative did provide us with good value for money. It provided useful information about tax reductions and benefits; retirement planning; health care; environmental protection; security, particularly in the wake of the events of September 11; Internet resources; and a variety of other activities.

One thing that was especially important about this particular distribution was that it was broken down on a regional basis. Part of the information provided was relative and timely with respect to all Canadians in all parts of the country and part of the information was directly aimed at subject matters that would be of particular interest to people in a particular region.

For example, in the Ontario edition there was information about cleaning up the Great Lakes and internship programs in northern Ontario. In British Columbia there was information about the Gulf Islands ecosystems and about certain local initiatives dealing with homelessness. In Quebec there were issues related to the environment, youth, the RCMP's drug awareness services and so forth. I could go through 11 different versions of the guide that tailored information to what Canadians in different parts of the country would be particularly interested in.

One thing that was important was that in every case the information included access to Government of Canada information and services, the 1-800 O-Canada line and the Government of Canada website. For anybody who is listening at this hour of night it is www.canada.gc.ca. One can get virtually every bit of information that one might want to have about the Government of Canada.

I note that in the market research we did with respect to programs of this kind we found a full 42% of Canadians saying they did not have enough information about government services that were available to them and were making requests for more information of that kind.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Chairman, I expect the minister is wondering if anyone is watching. I imagine there are some people watching although I do not know how many in Nova Scotia where it is past 11.30 p.m. Perhaps there are some who cannot sleep and are watching these interesting and worthwhile proceedings.

It is important to know that this is a new process. When have we ever seen this before? When has a government had ministers come before the House for five hours at a time and answer all manner of questions and have their departments held to account? That is transparency. It is an important new development brought about by the government and we as members of parliament should be pleased and proud of the fact that this has happened during this parliament .

One of the things I want to talk about is the role of the Department of Public Works and Government Services as a landlord. I served on the Prime Minister's task force on urban issues which reported its interim report recently. One of the issues we looked at regarding urban areas was the question of how the Government of Canada could work better and more effectively in urban areas. We asked what it could do to ensure that it was doing the most it could to help urban areas be competitive and help them develop in a sustainable way.

One of the ways in which the Government of Canada interacts with those large urban areas in the country is as a landlord. In Halifax, for example, the Government of Canada owns a number of buildings. It has CFB Halifax and other military bases around metro. It has a national park right in the middle of Halifax, the Halifax Citadel. There are a number of ways in which it interacts. It is a responsible landlord in my city as in many cities across the country.

There is the issue of grants in lieu of taxes which at times has been a concern for the city of Halifax. HRM, now Halifax regional municipality, has concerns about whether or not it is getting the amount of money it should. It is important that we deal with that in a responsible manner.

There are also issues relating to transit and traffic and where buildings and offices are located. I was told by Rear-Admiral Maclean that when there are snow storms the hours of people's arrival are sometimes adjusted to ease traffic problems. It is important to consider those factors because that was what we considered in our task force. Issues relating to air quality are important concerns.

There is also an issue relating to Dartmouth. There are plans in Dartmouth to move offices downtown to a new building. Could the minister tell us anymore about this aspect of the work of his department?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, there is no question, given the size of the Government of Canada and the property management responsibilities of the Department of Public Works and Government Services, that we have a profound impact upon the quality of life in a great many urban areas across the country.

The recent work done by the Prime Minister's task force on urban issues, of which my hon. colleague is a member, will make a contribution to improving government policy in respect of urban communities with some constructive advice about how the government, including the department of public works, can better conduct itself in relation to urban communities and municipalities.

Tonight I am pleased to inform the House that we are working on a new explicit policy for my department that we will probably call our good neighbour policy. It is being finalized right now. It is intended to be an explicit statement of how this department will interact with local communities and municipal authorities in making the property management decisions that we need to make for the future proper administration of the Government of Canada. Obviously we need to meet the requirements of federal departments and must do so by being consistent with all Government of Canada policies and in a manner that is the most cost-effective.

However, in doing that we will take into account the needs and the requirements of local communities. The Government of Canada does not want to be an unwelcome intruder in an urban community. It wants to be a good and welcome neighbour.

The hon. member has referred to a number of circumstances in and around Halifax and Dartmouth where the Government of Canada already has a big impact. With the application of the good neighbour policy that impact will be increasingly positive.

I will give the member another example in practical terms of what this new policy could mean in relation to my own community in Regina. Some months ago the Government of Canada, through the Department of Public Works and Government Services, announced that it would be proceeding with the purchase of a downtown office tower and ultimately over time converting that office tower for Government of Canada purposes.

This announcement was well received broadly in Regina. The mayor, city council and local regional economic development authorities spoke positively about it. However, the economic development authority and the city council said there were other urban development objectives that they wished to achieve in downtown Regina. If the Government of Canada wanted to go about the development of this major property in the centre of the city in a certain way, then it had to contribute more broadly to the municipality's objectives.

All it calls for is dialogue, understanding, flexibility and a willingness to get along and trying to achieve everyone's mutual objectives in the best interests not only of the Government of Canada but of the local community.

I hope that within the next number of weeks, perhaps even faster than that, I might be in a position to formerly announce the good neighbour policy of the Department of Public Works and Government Services to ensure that we are not only meeting federal objectives but that we are also making a material, positive contribution to the local objectives as well.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, my first question for the minister has to do with the fact that for a number of weeks this has been an issue in the House of Commons. We have had a situation where the entire government seems to be funnelling all kinds of contracts for advertising, polling and sponsorship programs through public works to all kinds of Liberal friends.

Very often the criteria for receiving these contracts are non-existent. There are verbal contracts and there is money going to companies like Groupaction which are paid to produce reports but then do not produce any reports at all or produce photocopies of reports. These are all Liberal friends.

These companies then turn around and in many cases give back huge amounts of money to the Liberal Party of Canada. In some cases, like with the case of the former public works minister, they are in a position to receive a personal benefit. In the situation of the former minister, he actually stayed at the chalet of one of the people with whom his department does business.

My point is that this is a huge issue. It has gripped the country and calls into question the entire integrity of the government.

The minister has been saying for a number of hours now that he has not really been briefed adequately on all of these things. My question is, what in the world has the minister been talking to his officials about over the last nine days if he cannot tell us fundamentally what went wrong with companies like Groupaction?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, the hon. gentleman is obviously ignoring the facts.

The Groupaction files were discovered by my predecessor. He called in the auditor general to examine those files. The auditor general did her work. She reported those files to the RCMP. The RCMP has confirmed that it is conducting an investigation.

Those are exactly the steps that should have been taken. They were taken promptly by the government and the matter is now being dealt with properly by the police.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, obviously the minister is not familiar with the facts because it was an access to information request that found some of the problems in Groupaction and it was the audit of 2000 that revealed some of these problems.

There are a number of issues that flow from this. One of them is that the minister is saying that after nine days he does not have a handle on what is going on in his department. Clearly this is a huge issue. He keeps ducking and dodging what he knows about the problems in his department. I would like to hear some answers about some of these contracts that have been awarded.

Can the minister explain to the House how it is that millions of dollars are awarded to friends of the Liberal Party and companies that have associations with the Liberal Party, for instance, on the basis of a verbal agreement? Can he explain that to the House?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, I have said, my predecessor has said and the auditors have said that is an unacceptable business practice. It has been corrected in the process of the internal audit that started in the year 2000 and the corrective measures that have been introduced since that time.

Where there are administrative errors, those errors are being corrected. If there is any evidence of any illegality, the matter is referred to the RCMP. We are taking the appropriate corrective action. Any insinuation to the contrary is simply wrong.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, that raises another issue. In the case of verbal contracts, this is clearly something that is unacceptable. It is not clear to me at all that we are going to be able to deal with the issue of verbal contracts through an RCMP investigation.

What I am concerned about is that the government has refused a full judicial inquiry into this while on the other hand knowing that an RCMP investigation will not get at issues like verbal contracts. How can the minister have any confidence that an RCMP investigation will expose all these other problems of integrity that have to do with things like verbal contracts or reports that are photocopied and in fact may be within the bounds of the law but obviously are things that do not demonstrate integrity?

How can he be confident that any of these things will ever be exposed if we do not have a proper, full judicial inquiry into his department?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, bear in mind that the time period being considered here is that period between 1997 and 2000. The practices that have been identified as questionable relate to that time period prior to the year 2000. Corrective action began to be instituted in 2000 and following as a result of an internal audit that was conducted by the department of public works itself by an internal audit department that was recognized by the auditor general as being exceptional, excellent and courageous.

The corrective procedures are under way. If there is any evidence of illegality, that is a police responsibility to investigate.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, one of the corrective actions we have seen is sending the former public works minister to Denmark to be an ambassador which is a scandal in itself.

I have some questions about current practices. Since becoming the minister, has the minister signed any contracts for advertising, for polling and for sponsorship?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, no, I cannot think of any that I have signed. I have in the normal course of events signed treasury board submissions that flow through the government review process but I have signed no direct contracts myself.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, will the minister promise that because of the extraordinary circumstances from here on in he will make public details of contracts for advertising, sponsorship, polling, any of those sorts of things until such time as we have some kind of confirmation from the auditor general that things have been cleaned up?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Wascana, SK]

Madam Chairman, with respect to issues related to sponsorship which is the particular topic of complaint here, I would remind the hon. gentleman that I explicitly froze the process as of Monday last week and it remains frozen. No new approvals have been made since that time. I indicated I wanted to be satisfied that the criteria of the programs were correct and that all the projects would fit within those criteria.

In terms of the publication of contracts, my understanding of the ordinary operating procedure is that all contracts issued by my department are automatically registered on the contracts Canada website.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Chairman, there is the question of Groupaction. Is it the minister's position that Groupaction will not receive further contracts, that it is suspended now and it will not receive any further contracts pending the outcome of the police investigation?