House of Commons Hansard #48 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was iraq.

Topics

IraqGovernment Orders

9:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Chairman, I fear we are going to have another one of those debates tonight where the Liberals will say they passionately care, and no one doubts that the caring is there, but I am not sure that they are being realistic as to what is necessary to make the United Nations relevant in the long term.

There has been chatter about whether we need a second resolution. It is not the second one that we have to worry about, but it is the 16th one.

I used to have a neighbour who lived behind our house and she used to call her kids in and tell them she would count to 10. She would get up to nine and then she would count nine and one-half, nine and three-quarters, nine and seven-eights. The kids completely ignored her.

In a sense, that is my concern about the United Nations. Sixteen resolutions later and it is still being ignored. If it were not for the fact that the Americans said we should get at it or else, guess what happened? When the Iraqis finally got to the point where they said it looked like the Americans meant business, they let the inspectors back in.

I want the United Nations to be respected. However, it has to mean business when a resolution is passed. Otherwise, we shrug our shoulders and hope for the best. We hoped for the best during the first and second world wars and in Kosovo when those forces, finally, decided to move without United Nations approval. Why? There comes a time when we either mean something multilaterally or else multilateralism does not mean anything.

We must protect the United Nations, I argue, by being firm with the resolution. I do not mean the second one that people muse about, but the 15 that have led us to this point. This is not a wish for war. If we do not take the United Nations seriously, or if we just keep passing these things, then the butcher's of this world will keep doing their dirty deeds.

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9:05 p.m.

Liberal

Clifford Lincoln Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the member who asked me the question has counted the number of resolutions that have been passed concerning Israel and Palestine and have been ignored over the years?

I wonder if we stacked up all the resolutions of the United Nations that have been ignored, how many there would be? I wonder if the United Nations would have been far more credible and far more potent if the United States had not chosen along the way to pay its dues when it suited it and let the United Nations almost die a financial death, and to using the United Nations when it does its thing and this time--

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9:05 p.m.

An hon. member

Do you beat up on your neighbour like that? At home?

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9:05 p.m.

Liberal

Clifford Lincoln Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

If the member asks me a question, he should give me a chance to answer. I listened to his leader with great respect. I listened to him when he asked questions. He may not agree with me. And if he does agree with me I would be very sorry because of the positions he has taken in the past, such as: let's go to war, let's send the bombs, let's arm ourselves to the teeth and blast away and the world will be nirvana. It will be paradise. I do not believe in this myself. I do not believe in this kind of theory.

I am saying that the United States has been playing footsie with the United Nations. When it suits the Americans, it is fine. When it does not suit them, they do not pay their dues; they disregard them. Have they signed a convention of the United Nations? They ignored the convention on biodiversity. They turned their back on the international criminal court. They have not ratified the landmines agreement because it did not suit them. They turned away from Kyoto and an agreement concerning biological weapons. Suddenly, when they sign an agreement about anti-ballistic missiles, when it does not suit them they move away from it. They ignore the treaty that they have signed. They unilaterally debark from it at the same time.

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9:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh.

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9:10 p.m.

The Chairman

Order, please. Colleagues, let me give you the perspective from this chair for a moment. It is rather refreshing to have an occasion when members speak about a very serious matter with a great deal of passion and interest. Now it may require a little extra effort to be more attentive, to be a little bit more respectful, but if we truly want to allow this chamber to engage in these meaningful debates which bring passion and animation, then it also calls for a little bit more self discipline from all of us.

I leave it in your hands so that as many members as possible can participate freely and respectfully during the remainder of the debate.

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9:10 p.m.

Liberal

Clifford Lincoln Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

I think I made my point, Mr. Chairman. I was asked why so many UN resolutions relating to Iraq have been ignored. I could quote time and again various conventions of the United Nations that have been ignored by certain countries including the United States. I could mention resolutions that have been ignored about the Middle East, that are left there without follow-up that could have been invoked by the various countries including the United States.

We cannot just select one group that suits us today. This has become the fashion of the day, to turn our sites on Iraq and suddenly it has become the great obsession of Mr. Bush. We are ignoring North Korea, which is a far greater threat according to the words of a senior senator of the United States.

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9:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Chairman, the events of this last week have sounded a clarion call for leadership. We learned Monday that the efforts of the United Nations to disarm Saddam Hussein have not gone well. We must do a quick review of those serious concerns that have been raised by Dr. Blix.

First, the UN disarmament resolution calls on Iraq to deliver a comprehensive list of the names of all of the officials who worked on previous weapons programs. According to the Blix report Iraq's list omits over 3,000 scientists and weapons workers who were known to have worked on past Iraqi weapons projects. How is it that 3,000 such officials have vanished from the record?

The omission suggests that Saddam believes that these 3,000 weapons makers have information that would implicate his regime and expose his weapons program. Iraq is required by the resolution to permit access to these people any time, anywhere and without the supervision of uncle Saddam.

Iraq has permitted no such thing. Every time inspectors have asked to interview one of these people in every case they have been told that the individual will not be allowed to speak unless there is the presence of an Iraqi official appointed by Saddam Hussein.

Second, the resolution demanded that Iraq must offer a current, accurate and complete declaration of its weapons programs. Again, Dr. Blix is unsatisfied. Iraq's 12,000 page weapons declaration is riddled with holes and filled with mysteries. These ambiguities, said Dr. Blix, suggest that Saddam has deadly VX nerve gas, the components to make thousands of gallons of anthrax, 6,500 chemical bombs that cannot be accounted for, and an unknown number of chemical rocket warheads. Iraq also has missiles with a greater range than 150 km than is permitted by the United Nations.

There is a possibility that the inspectors could locate some of these weapons if they were able to carry out their reconnaissance flyover missions as provided for in resolution 1441. However, Dr. Blix and his inspectors have had no such luxury. Iraq will not assure the safety of the United Nations reconnaissance aircraft.

Without access to air reconnaissance the inspectors' jobs become nearly impossible. How else can inspectors track the location of potential weapons installations and mobile chemical laboratories? What might otherwise be found out that cannot be found out unless they have this air reconnaissance? The resolution requires complete access to all suspected weapons facilities, documents and records. In this section of the resolution Iraq is compelled to actively cooperate with inspectors without threatening United Nations officials.

Did Saddam Hussein comply with that requirement? Not according to Dr. Blix. He said Iraq is failing to disclose information and that Saddam Hussein has harassed the inspectors. Dr. Blix added that 3,000 pages of documents on nuclear weapons development were discovered in the home of an Iraqi scientist where they had been hidden. This is not compliance.

What does all this mean to weapons inspectors? Picture a country the size of British Columbia with a regime that hides weapons in mobile labs or possibly in underground installations, where a canister the size of a glass of water can hold enough botulism or other toxins to devastate a large Canadian city and devastating weapons that can be hidden in a suitcase.

Without air reconnaissance and access to witnesses all of this is an impossible task for the UN inspectors. Dr. Blix's report suggests that we have every reason to believe that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction and his horrendous record of mass killings give us great reason to believe that he will use them.

Like other megalomaniacs throughout history, Saddam has shown a breathtaking propensity to miscalculate, by invading Iran and Kuwait. Dictators of his ilk are known for other twisted behaviour such as the times he gassed to death thousands of his own people. Anybody who is betting on the cautious and pragmatic behaviour of a monster like this, who systematically tortures his own people, is a dangerous gambler.

Another threat that emanates is not just from what Saddam may do himself but from what he can employ others to do for him. His documented relationship with terrorist organizations would allow him to delegate his terror to strategic partners. This may already be happening. These groups would not hesitate to use weapons of horror against their sworn enemies, as they have already.

Traditional deterrence is obsolete with Saddam's terrorist friends. After all, they are hard to kill and they are not afraid to die. Either way, they have little reason to fear reprisal. It is in Saddam's interest to delay and to make strategic alliances with these so-called undeterables, and it is in our interest to stop him.

That brings me to the next point. In light of these perils, it is difficult to understand the architects of unrealistic appeasement. They argue that the United Nations alone should decide Canada's response to this crisis.

Canada respects the United Nations, but at the same time, where did we ever get the idea that the United Nations is infallible? This is the same United Nations that recently elected Libya, with its tyrant, Muammar Ghadaffi, to be the world's guru on human rights. It is the same United Nations that is scheduled to rotate none other than Iraq into the presidency of the disarmament committee this May. Where was the United Nations when a Canadian general pleaded, literally wept, for it to intervene to stop a massacre that he said would happen in Rwanda? The United Nations did not intervene and over a million people were hopelessly massacred. Where was the United Nations when the massacre was unfolding in Kosovo? This is not an infallible institution and it would be a mistake to totally put our sovereignty into its hands.

It is also important to consider that there are two permanent members of the UN Security Council, France and Russia, with oil interests in Iraq. Their interests could affect their ability to make a decision about Iraq. However, it is important that Canada try to convince France and Russia that their oil interests should not affect their judgment regarding Iraq.

It is not only international security that is at stake. The very relevance of the United Nations and its future is at stake. As much as we want to work with the United Nations, we must defend our sovereignty, Canadian sovereignty, Canadian interests and values that are being threatened by this situation. We must defend them.

We must focus relentlessly on the objective of disarming this madman. Canada must join with its allies to send a final message to Saddam that this is his chance to disarm and he must take it. That means pre-deploying Canadian troops to the region to deter Saddam from defying his obligations to the United Nations and to send a message that he cannot continue to obstruct UN inspectors, Dr. Blix and his crew.

Kofi Annan said just a few days ago that the only thing Saddam Hussein understands is a show of force. We saw that happen in 1995 when once again Saddam Hussein amassed thousands of his troops on the Kuwait border. It was only when he saw a show of force that he backed down.

In conclusion, Saddam's regime in a sense is much like the Bourbon dynasty: He forgets nothing and he learns nothing. He has never forgotten his fantasy of dominating the Arab world and he never truly learned the lessons of his failed transgressions.

The question is, what have we learned? As I look across the floor of the House, with respect, I must say that the answer to that question is not clear. Some members of the House have appointed themselves ambassadors of unrealistic appeasement, trotting over to Iraq to look starstruck into the eyes of the highest ranking officials in that murderous regime. Such adventures merely serve as propaganda tools for the beligerence of Baghdad.

Winston Churchill summarized this type of behaviour best when he said “An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile, hoping it will eat him last”.

As for the Prime Minister, I think we can all agree, his response to this crisis has been far less than Churchillian. One thing is clear and simple: Saddam Hussein is an evil man. He must comply to the resolution of the United Nations or face serious consequences. This is not a possible war against the people of Iraq. Ours is a clear stand against a twisted dictator who threatens international security and who threatens the values that we hold dear as Canadians.

Iraq could transform from a dungeon of despotism to a lamppost of liberty, but that will never happen if Saddam Hussein does not comply.

Canada must answer the call for leadership with our allies. We must make Saddam Hussein realize that he has no other option but to comply and that we have no other option than to take actions that are firm, strong and unrelenting until he does.

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9:20 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Chairman, I want to thank the hon. member for his speech even though I totally disagree with his position on the UN and the importance of reacting rapidly and attacking Iraq immediately.

One aspect of his speech piqued my curiosity. He thinks that Russia and France might have a somewhat biased position because they already have interests in Iraqi oil. By the way, Iraq's resources are probably as extensive as Saudi Arabia's.

Does he not think that the United States might have an eye on the Iraqi oil fields? Would it not be to the United States' advantage to strike quickly, even they have to go alone? They could say “We have done the work, so the oil fields in Iraq now belong to us”. Might it be possible that the United States has a vested interest, specifically for oil, in launching a planned offensive against Iraq?

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9:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Not at all Mr. Chairman. Now, when the world is not safe, oil prices are high. It is not the time for American and Canadian companies to make profits. Western nations cannot set out to take oil from Iraq. In Iraq, oil does not belong to American or Canadian companies, it belongs to Iraqis.

Now we learn that two countries, France and Russia, have interests there. Profits for western companies are very low because there is no security

.The United States and Canada and our allies all want security.

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9:25 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Blix was referred to quite often in the hon. member's speech. Mr. Blix has asked for time to finish his mandate as provided to him by a unanimous motion in the United Nations. He wants time to finish his report and I do not know what that report will say in the end. Does the hon. member think that Mr. Blix should have the time it takes to finish his report to the standard that was outlined to him when he was first commissioned to do it?

Does the member think that Iraq poses a threat within the next month, two months, three months or even four months to the United States or Canada?

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9:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Chairman, that is a fair question. First, it should be clear, as our leader has said tonight, in terms of international law, as we stand here Iraq is in defiance and in contravention of a ceasefire that was signed. The ceasefire that was signed was based on certain conditions that Saddam Hussein would have to follow. He has violated those conditions for the last 12 years. International law would not be contravened if there were some kind of intervention now. We are not saying that must take place now but let us be clear on this area of international law.

Let us also be clear on something else. When we talk about law, at whatever level, lawyers, as per their training, must have the ability to argue either side of the law. I find it interesting when I hear, sometimes even in this House, that there is only one view of international law. When the word international is put in front of the word law it is as if there is only one view. No, there is more than one view. Clearly Saddam Hussein right now is in violation of that ceasefire.

Having said that, the position of the Canadian Alliance has been clear. We are showing perseverance and patience in working with the United Nations. If Dr. Blix is asking for some extended time, then we are saying that we should let that move ahead. However we should not go into this naively. We should go into it with our eyes wide open.

As I said in my remarks earlier, as we stand here these undisclosed weapons are available to other enemies of the western world. Every day we wait allows the possibility that those weapons will go into knapsacks, into barrels or into who knows what to be found in what cities, in what ventilation system or onto what airplane. Let us keep our eyes open and let us not be naive. Dr. Blix wants the extra time, but let us stand firm and make sure of what we are up against here.

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9:25 p.m.

Brampton West—Mississauga Ontario

Liberal

Colleen Beaumier LiberalParliamentary secretary to the Minister of National Revenue

Mr. Chairman, keeping in mind that the Iraqis are using computer systems with technology that is still using DOS and that they have had no new computer systems or new technology since 1991, we are expecting them to produce a complete report as though they had today's computers.

I wonder if the U.S. would be able to produce an accurate audit of their weapons of mass destruction within a period of 40 days. We all know what auditing systems are like. Let us take Enron for example.

Hans Blix has given Iraq a B minus. When did that become a failing grade?

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9:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Chairman, the member is suggesting that poor Saddam Hussein, who is bursting to reveal all this stuff, is somehow constrained because he does not have the high tech capabilities.

Is the member aware that in 1989, when South Africa was required to give a full accounting to weapons inspectors, it was wide open, transparent and willing to do so without the DOS or whatever other equipment she says Saddam Hussein is lacking.

The Ukraine was the same. With the turnover of the Soviet empire, it was open and willing. It said “Come in. Here are our weapons of destruction. Help us get rid of them”.

Kazakhstan was the same with the stockpiles of weapons it had. It opened up. It invited and pleaded with the world to come in and help it to clean up its weapons of mass destruction.

Saddam Hussein has never said that, DOS or not, and we do not think he ever will. That is why we have to enforce this resolution.

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9:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gary Lunn Canadian Alliance Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC

Mr. Chairman, I listened to the Leader of Her Majesty's Official Opposition talk earlier about the importance of showing leadership. He said that if we show that leadership that probably will be the greatest opportunity to prevent war.

I would like the hon. member to give me his thoughts on why leadership is so important in a situation like this.

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9:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Chairman, that question is a compelling one. Again, we can reflect back through history.

We have heard one member here say that there is no comparison between Saddam Hussein and somebody like Adolf Hitler. Indeed, there are comparisons. There truly are. A.J.P. Taylor pointed this out in his extensive work on the second world war and why it happened. He was very clear when he said that the allies should have shown leadership in the thirties in terms of standing up to Adolf Hitler by saying “you could face the force of the allied nations if you continue on this path”. A noted historian said that because Hitler was convinced he would not face the risk or the possibility of a threat of force from the allies he continued on his pathway of devastation and destruction, because the allies did not show leadership.

That is why at moments like this, as the member has indicated, nations like Canada must show leadership. Unfortunately our ability to do that has been eroded. Every time the Prime Minister or some other member of the cabinet goes down to the United States they come back with a different position on this issue.

I feel badly for the Minister of National Defence. He went down to the United States last week, wandered around for a while, could not find anybody credible to talk with and came back and said “Here is what the position is going to be”, and the Prime Minister had to turn around a day or two later and say “No, that is not going to be the position”.

It is time for leadership, leadership of allied nations, democratic, freedom loving nations, that respect the human rights of all people. That type of leadership can prevail in this situation.

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9:30 p.m.

Liberal

Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT

Mr. Chairman, the Leader of Her Majesty's opposition said that Iraq was in non-compliance with resolution 1441.

I wonder if the member could outline that non-compliance but, more specifically, if nothing further occurs is that enough to go to war?

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9:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Chairman, Dr. Blix has already outlined the non-compliance. If the Chairman will permit me, I will take the House's time to walk the member through it, but I see he is saying no. However I have already walked through the fact that there has been serious non-compliance.

I think the member was leading up to the question whether this constituted material breach? There is serious non-compliance right now. We have great concern. However with our eyes open for what Saddam Hussein could be doing right now, let us continue to work this through.

I would say to the member there are breaches when somebody has been asked to say where their supposed destroyed weaponry is or show that it has been destroyed and they cannot account for VX gas, the nerve gas which is so deadly, or for the ingredients that go into making thousands of gallons of anthrax, or for 6,500 chemical bombs.

We are showing patience and perseverance but I do not know for how much longer.

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9:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Pratt Liberal Nepean—Carleton, ON

Mr. Chairman, I fear the former leader of the official opposition may have had a peek at my speech.

I welcome the opportunity to express my views on this grave issue of international peace and security. The matter of when to use force is the most critical issue any government can face. It must never be taken lightly and it must always be a last resort.

I have never encountered any Canadian who wishes to go to war. In that respect I think we are all, each and every one of us, peace activists.

For anyone who has seen the horrors of war, not from the surreal images that have flooded our TV screens in recent times, but up close at ground level, looking into the eyes of the people affected, it is something that one never ever forgets. The devastation, the loss, the shattered lives, the communities changed forever, the mental and physical scars, many of which never heal, are all part of the devastating cataclysmic horror of war.

I have seen firsthand the face of war in Sierra Leone and Guinea, where the poorest of the poor were brutalized in ways that defy the imagination.

I have seen the face of war in Kosovo and Bosnia, where societies dissolved into chaos and where mass murder and rape shattered the calm of what were ordinary lives. Anyone who has seen the effects of war at close quarters understands that it is to be avoided.

In as much as the revulsion against war is felt deeply throughout the world, at the dawn of the 21st century war regrettably has not vanished from our landscape. We seem to have learned little from the horrific decades of the 20th century. If we have learned anything, I hope it is that the forces of evil and aggression, those with no respect for human life or human rights, those that threaten the peace of the world must be confronted directly and decisively.

Over the years of the last century we have tried to fashion international organizations which provide us with the diplomatic and political tools to avoid conflict. The results of these efforts have been mixed, to say the least.

After the first world war, the League of Nations represented the best hope for enduring peace. It faltered grievously when its resolutions went unenforced and when the allies lost their collective will to uphold the disarmament of the Treaty of Versailles.

In dealing with the international crisis that we now face in Iraq, I cannot help but think of the words of Winston Churchill who, in speaking on the situation in Europe in the 1930s, noted and I quote:

--the strict enforcement at any time till 1934 of the disarmament clauses of the Peace Treaty would have guarded indefinitely, without violence or bloodshed, the peace and safety of mankind. But this was neglected while the infringements remained petty and shunned as they assumed serious proportions. Thus, the final safeguard of a long peace was cast away. The crimes of the vanquished find their background and their explanation, though not, of course, their pardon, in the follies of the victors. Without these follies crime would have found neither temptation nor opportunity.

While different in geopolitical terms, there are in my view too many haunting parallels between the regime of Adolf Hitler and the regime of Saddam Hussein. In the cold light of history we know all too well Hitler's crimes against his own people, against his neighbours and against humanity.

Saddam Hussein's grim legacy, although smaller in scale when we count the million casualties from the Iran-Iraq war and the thousands who perished because of his invasion of Kuwait and his persecution of the Kurds, still places him firmly in the category of one of humanity's truly prolific mass murderers.

Hitler skilfully dodged the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles to rearm and re-equip his Nazi regime with the most modern and destructive weapons of the time. Saddam too has skilfully dodged the provisions of almost a dozen UN Security Council resolutions. In the words of chief weapons inspector Hans Blix, “Iraq appears not to have come to the genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament that was demanded of it”.

While Hitler's lack of compliance with the Treaty of Versailles was clearly evident to the international community in terms of planes, battleships, tanks and submarines, Saddam Hussein's arsenal is easily hidden, but potentially much more destructive. A single 122 millimetre rocket shell of the type recently uncovered by weapons inspectors when filled with VX nerve agent, fired into a stadium could easily extinguish the lives of between 20,000 and 60,000 people.

Saddam, again, according to Mr. Blix, has still failed to account for significant quantities of biological and chemical weapons, including stocks of VX nerve gas, two tonnes of nutrients or growth media for biological agents such as anthrax, 550 artillery shells with mustard gas and 6,500 chemical bombs. While some may see Saddam's lack of compliance as technical violations, anyone familiar with the destructive capability of these weapons would see these violations for what they are; material breaches of the so-called last chance United Nations resolution 1441.

While some have suggested that they wish to see a smoking gun in terms of proof, Mr. Blix put this issue to rest on Monday in his statement to the Security Council. He reasserted the role of weapons inspectors as disarmament verifiers rather than sleuths or detectives trying to find the proverbial needle in the haystack. Blix stated, and I quote:

As we know, the twin operation 'declare and verify', which was prescribed in resolution 687 (1991), too often turned into a game of 'hide and seek'. Rather than just verifying declarations and supporting evidence, the two inspecting organizations found themselves engaged in efforts to map the weapons programmes and to search for evidence through inspections, interviews, seminars, inquiries with suppliers and intelligence organizations.

While Blix conceded that the Iraqi regime was co-operating on process but not on substance, the fact remains that after 12 years of evasion, frustration, deceit and obstruction, disarmament of the regime of Saddam Hussein remains an elusive goal.

When confronting a criminal regime of the sort that we face in Iraq, our history should tell us clearly that it is a hard message that must be delivered and nothing short of full compliance is acceptable. A failure to convey a strong, clear message is always interpreted as weakness and a lack of resolve. To force compliance to the will of the international community is, regrettably, often necessary to threaten the use of armed force or, as a last resort, to employ armed force to compel compliance to preserve international peace and security.

In the preface to his award winning series on the second world war, Churchill, who once addressed this chamber during the darker days of the second world war, spoke about how the war could have been prevented. He noted, and I quote:

--how the malice of the wicked was reinforced by the weakness of the virtuous; how the structure and habits of democratic states, unless they are welded into larger organisms, lack those elements of persistence and conviction which can alone give security to humble masses; how, even in matters of self-preservation, no policy is pursued for even ten or fifteen years at a time. We shall see how the counsels of prudence and restraint may become the prime agents of mortal danger; how the middle course adopted from desires for safety and a quiet life may be found to lead direct to the bull's-eye of disaster. We shall see how absolute is the need of a broad path of international action pursued by many states in common across the years, irrespective of the ebb and flow of national politics.

Although time is running out for the regime of Saddam Hussein, some of us still cling to the hope that Iraq might disarm without a single shot being fired and without a single life lost. Failing that, I very much hope we will see a united and concentrated effort through the United Nations to disarm this regime and to ensure that the collective will of the international community prevails.

Should the United Nations fail to accept its responsibility and enforce its resolutions, I believe that this country working with our traditional allies, the United States, Great Britain, Australia and others, should, indeed must, keep its options open in terms of participating in a coalition of like-minded countries to disarm the regime. We have seen the United Nations fail to take effective action in the past in Kosovo, Sierra Leone, in the former Yugoslavia and in Rwanda.

In the final analysis as the next few weeks unfold, we will hopefully have the benefit of more information from Mr. Blix, Mr. Powell and the regime of Saddam Hussein. Reflecting on our values as Canadians, I earnestly hope that we will be able to make a decision which contributes tangibly to international peace and security.

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9:40 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jason Kenney Canadian Alliance Calgary Southeast, AB

Madam Chairman, I particularly want to commend the member for his very thoughtful remarks. He reminds me in his remarks that there tends to be one general position in this debate, and only one, which is making reference to history, as he has done so eloquently.

I would concur with his conclusion that Canada ought to keep its options open to join allies in action to enforce the Security Council resolutions should the United Nations itself fail to do so. However, I would like to ask him if he would agree that the potential to avoid a real conflict, a real war, in Iraq would be lessened if allied countries continue the threat of force through positioning forces in the region as the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia and others have done.

In other words, would he agree that Canada should consider or at least begin plans for the possible placement of forces in the region to underscore the very message which I think he has articulated in his speech, that is, that there will be consequences should Iraq fail to comply?

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9:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Pratt Liberal Nepean—Carleton, ON

Madam Chairman, the threat of force is obviously a critical component with respect to the current situation we face in Iraq. Obviously the Americans have taken that view very seriously. They have pre-positioned probably in excess of 100,000 troops now. As well, the British are in the process of moving 30,000 troops into the region. The threat of force at this point is in fact very credible. Saddam Hussein certainly can be under no illusions that elements of the international community feel very strongly about disarmament of the regime and intend to pursue that course of action.

The problem that we get into, of course, is the issue of whether or not the Security Council may or may not act. Canada as a middle power obviously has traditionally taken the position that we want to work through multilateral institutions. That has been our position in the past. I think that we have tried over many years to ensure that the rule of law replaces the rule of the jungle, and I think we have been very effective at that.

Having said that, let me say that I think we are going to have to wait to see what unfolds over the next little while. I think most people certainly were under the impression that the situation in Iraq was going to take a while to unfold as far as the role of the weapons inspectors was concerned, on how that work was going to proceed and whether or not the necessary level of co-operation was going to exist.

Certainly many of us were surprised by the tone of Mr. Blix's report. I believe it was a very hard message that he delivered, which I think will put the regime of Saddam Hussein in a very difficult position over the coming weeks. Saddam Hussein is either going to have to comply very quickly and demonstrate co-operation very quickly or he is going to be dealt with, perhaps through the Security Council, perhaps through another means.

I do not think we are in a position right now to make a judgment. Things are moving so quickly at this point that I think it is probably prudent to wait to see what sort of information Mr. Powell produces, what further information Mr. Blix produces, and whether or not the regime is going to comply.

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9:45 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Madam Chairman, my colleague across the way has made some comments about the application of the rule of law. I have two questions.

If the United Nations were to authorize a mandate to use military force against the regime in Iraq, would the member agree with me that there is no one else in the world who can determine whether that mandate is in compliance with international law and the charter of the United Nations, that in fact the only people in this country who can determine whether in fact we should follow that mandate are the people who sit in the House? Therefore, would he agree that we should have a vote in the House before a determination is made as to whether we comply with the mandate and involve ourselves in a military action?

There are two questions. Are we the final decision makers? Second, should we have a vote?

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9:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Pratt Liberal Nepean—Carleton, ON

Madam Chairman, if we go back to the practice in the House over the last 50 or 60 years, dating back to the second world war, obviously there was a declaration of war on September 10, 1939, I think it was, when Canada declared war against Nazi Germany. Since then, however, the record has been mixed in terms of whether or not Parliament has voted on the deployment and engagement of Canadians troops abroad.

We saw a significant delay, for instance, when Canadian troops went to Korea. I do not believe there was a debate in the House. I think the troops went sometime in the summer of 1950 and the House did not come back until September or October. If we look at the record we will see that Mr. St. Laurent said at the time that it was the role of the executive to determine whether or not Canada went to war and the House had its say on the basis of the appropriations for the war.

We had a vote in 1990 when the gulf war occurred. I do not believe we had a vote dealing with Kosovo in 1999. It really has been a rather mixed record.

Clearly the one thing we have to keep in mind when we are dealing with grave matters of international crisis is that it becomes very difficult under certain circumstances. This is a factor that has to be borne in mind in terms of what the public believes is the view of Parliament. If the executive, based on intelligence information and other information that it has available, working with its allies, feels very strongly, and I am saying this hypothetically, that Canada must be involved in an armed conflict, and if that were to be put to a vote in the House without all of the members necessarily being aware of all the information that is involved, we could end up with a very mixed message. A very mixed message could be sent to the people whose co-operation and compliance, in connection with UN resolutions perhaps, we are trying to coerce in abiding by the will of the international community. I think that is a consideration.

Perhaps in the years to come we will have more parliamentary jurisprudence on this which will determine a particular course of action that meets all the needs of Parliament to discuss these issues. We are having this debate tonight, which I think is important, but at the same time there are some other factors that have to be borne in mind.

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9:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Leon Benoit Canadian Alliance Lakeland, AB

Madam Chairman, it is interesting to listen to the hon. member. His presentation was indeed well thought out, but what struck me is how different it was from the other presentations on his side of the House. When we listen to the members of our party, we will see that there are a lot of common themes in the comments made, because there is some common background given to caucus, I think.

I would like to ask the member whether in his caucus there have been substantial discussions on this issue of the war in Iraq. Have the members of his caucus been given common information on the war? If so, why does his presentation quite frankly sound more like a Canadian Alliance presentation, and that is a compliment, than the many and varied presentations from that side of the House?

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9:50 p.m.

Liberal

David Pratt Liberal Nepean—Carleton, ON

Madam Chairman, the hon. member has a funny way of delivering compliments.

The one thing that is evident on this side of the House is freedom of thought on this issue. We have the opportunity to express our views on this issue. That is what this sort of debate is all about and I think it is extremely important.

There is a singularity of purpose to a flock of sheep as well in terms of consistency of mind on these things, but at the same time there may not be a lot of intellectual light generated from that exercise.

I think that this debate is a healthy one. Obviously it is an opportunity for members to express their views and to be heard on this issue. I certainly hope that members will avail themselves of that opportunity.