House of Commons Hansard #140 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was riding.

Topics

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

10:30 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ted White Canadian Alliance North Vancouver, BC

Mr. Speaker, I wish to confirm something that the minister just said in response to the question from a Bloc member. It is very unusual for me to agree with the minister on something, but he was actually giving a factual account of what happened when he said that it was the Canadian Alliance which began to push this idea as far back as the summer of last year.

In fact, I had lunch with the Chief Electoral Officer, which I think was in the early fall of last year, and discussed the idea of bringing certainty to this process. The Chief Electoral Officer was first aware a year ago that there was a party in the House that was interested in bringing certainty to the actual implementation date of the new boundaries.

Mr. Kingsley told me at the time that he felt that he could comfortably, with a little stress, get it in place for April 1 as a potential date. It was on that basis that I approached the minister before the end of the session last year to talk about the possibility of bringing this date forward.

The logic did not escape the minister. It makes sense to everybody because the way the system was set up with the coming into force in August, which would be the normal timetable, we had the potential for an election to either occur in the spring, April-May, with the new Prime Minister when he is selected or it could be in September-October.

There was tremendous uncertainty because the riding associations of the parties would have to prepare for two different scenarios at short notice. On top of all that were the complications introduced by Bill C-24, which was suddenly requiring the registration of riding associations or electoral district associations, as they would be known after January 1.

We were faced with an administrative nightmare, not only getting used to the idea of having to fill out paperwork and all the reporting that goes along with Bill C-24, but we would have to do it twice. We would have to do it once on January 1, 2004, in case the election was called under the old boundaries. Then, immediately afterward, during the summer recess everybody would have to re-register under the new boundaries with a whole new set of paperwork and all of the stress that goes with that if an election had not yet been called.

Another motive for us in the west, of course, was that we were getting two new seats in Alberta and two in British Columbia. The process itself is extremely slow. It takes a decade to even get to the point where we get the two seats we were entitled to 10 years ago. We are already entitled to at least three more seats and it is going to take us another decade to get those. We were anxious to ensure that at the time of the next election we would see those additional seats in the west that at least go partway in recognizing the growth in that part of the country.

That is a bit more background for the member. There was a push from this party to obtain that certainty. I am sure that if he was to check with the administrations of any of the other parties in the House, other than the Bloc, they are all behind this initiative. In fact, the party people spoke behind the scenes and all agreed it was a good idea to get some certainty into this process.

Associated with that, though, I would like to inject the comment that it only becomes necessary to do this because of the government's focus on elections every two and a half or three years. We have an electoral cycle that should ideally be at least four years, with the potential to be as long as five years, and now we have elections coming every three to three and a half years. Right now the House is fixated on the suggestion that there may be an election coming up in the spring of next year when what we really should be doing is focusing on the affairs of the country, the things that really matter to the people of Canada.

For example, people want to see an end to the wasteful gun registry. They would like to see the sex offender registry backdated to take into account people who are already in prison. They would like to see the problems fixed with the refugee and deportation processes because they are in disarray. They would like to see an end to the race based fisheries in British Columbia in accordance with the court ruling that came out there last month that criticized the government for its race based policy for fisheries.

All these major issues need to be addressed. Instead of that we are focusing the time of the House on issues that are important to political parties because of the government's irrational approach to elections. It is throwing the whole country into disarray.

It is almost certain that we will prorogue before November 16. For people who may be watching and who do not understand, the term prorogation means that the Prime Minister simply chooses to close the place down without calling an election until it suits him or his successor to open the place up again with a Speech from the Throne and then perhaps an election almost immediately. What a terrible waste of resources and time that this place could be closed down for six months. However some of my constituents say that is pretty good. When we are not sitting, we are not doing any damage, and they think that is not a bad idea.

In summary, because we do not particularly want to hold up the bill, we would like to see the certainty that comes with it.

I will just round off by saying I hope the Bloc does not hold this up too much. It is unnecessary to consume the time of the House arguing about the bill. It is something we need to do so we have certainty. I hope the Bloc will rethink its strategy of trying to hold this up endlessly. It is not really necessary, and the Bloc knows the government will only move closure on it anyway. Let us get on with the job and get the bill passed.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, the least we can say is that it is difficult to follow the drift of the Canadian Alliance, as is so often the case.

How can they pretend to be serving democracy and the non-partisan process of adopting new electoral boundaries when in fact they are supporting the member for LaSalle—Émard and the carrying out of his own personal agenda? What would happen if the new electoral map were to be adopted quickly?

Instead of coming into force next August, it would take effect in the coming months. Then the future prime minister would have carte blanche to prepare a spring election, but most of all he would get out of sitting in the House to answer our questions. That is the game.

I do not understand members of the Canadian Alliance who play along with such a trick, who support such a partisan move which will allow the member for LaSalle—Émard to adjourn the proceedings of the House and prepare for a spring election.

Members of the Canadian Alliance are not easy to follow. They just launched a process to unite the right. They need time. It is not that I am right wing myself but, if we follow their logic, they have just concluded negotiations to set in motion a complete restructuring of the Canadian right into one single united party.

They need time but, instead of buying time, instead of leaving the electoral map to come into force in a year's time, they are giving the member for LaSalle—Émard and future prime minister carte blanche. He will not have to appear before us and answer our questions. The House will recess and he will have all the time he wants to call a spring election.

The member for LaSalle—Émard and future prime minister will not have to answer to us for his actions, for being the man behind the cuts to social assistance, education and health, for stealing the $45 billion surplus from the EI fund. He will not have to answer to us. The House will recess, he will call an election and that will be the end of it.

People will forget that when he was finance minister for nine years, this new leader of the Liberal Party slashed provincial transfer payments, which were there to help the less fortunate in society.

The Canadian Alliance is playing along with this trick. Talk about wasting the House's time; who does he think he is, blocking our freedom of speech, preventing us from achieving our mandate, which is to inform the public of this trap being presented today for the purpose of preparing the future prime minister's agenda? Who does he think he is, preventing us here in the House from taking the time we need to inform the public of the future prime minister's strategy and personal agenda?

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

10:40 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ted White Canadian Alliance North Vancouver, BC

Mr. Speaker, how ridiculous can we get? I am not blocking anybody's ability to speak to the bill. I simply asked the Bloc members to reconsider their strategy. That was all I did. I do not have the power to block them. They can go on as long as they want.

All I was trying to do was point out the background, in agreeing with the minister as to what happened here and the reasons for it. The fact is the people in the west want their entitlement to an additional four seats and the one way to ensure that happens at the time of the next election, whenever it occurs, either the spring or the fall, is to try to bring the process forward so that we have certainty.

Now the first step in that process, as I said when I stood before, was to meet with the Chief Electoral Officer to ensure that we would not do anything in the House that would cause him difficulty, that would upset or be seen as political interference.

When I sat down at that lunch meeting with the Chief Electoral Officer, he told me he could do it by April 1. I do not have the power to impose a date on the Chief Electoral Officer. It was only after a civilized discussion about the problem and how to address it, he gave me a suggestion. I then approached the government, the parties discussed it, and the end result is this bill.

It is a good bill that gives all of us certainty. It tells us for certain we will have the new boundaries in effect at the time of the next election, whenever it occurs. It gives us the certainty of additional seats in western Canada. I do not understand why the member does not understand that. It seems perfectly clear to me.

Finally, I would just like to repeat this. For him to accuse me of trying to block their opportunity to get their word out, is just ridiculous.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, if we consider the electoral boundaries in terms of the democratic process, what is the hon. member's position with regard to both official languages? Does he agree with me?

I am not sure if he knows this, but the Association francophone des municipalitésdu Nouveau-Brunswick asked the court to intervene to review the New Brunswick electoral boundaries commission's decision. In fact, some francophone areas of the Acadie—Bathurst riding will now be part of the Miramichi riding.

If the effective date of the new electoral map is moved up by several months, the court could be prevented from handing down its decision. Perhaps the hon. member does not care because it is not important to him. The Liberals call an election every three and a half years. In truth, it would not be a problem to hold an election in the fall, except if the alternative better suits the hon. member for LaSalle—Émard. He is not yet prime minister, he does not bother to attend sittings in the House of Commons, but he is doing the Prime Minister's job. Canada is lucky to have two prime ministers now. No other country in the world can say the same.

I want to know where the hon. member of the official opposition stands on this. What does he think? Should the court have the opportunity to rule on the commission's decision? The people of New Brunswick think this is a bad decision.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ted White Canadian Alliance North Vancouver, BC

Mr. Speaker, we cannot conduct our business in the House on the basis of what court cases might happen and rulings that might occur. I am well aware of the concerns of the member. I heard them at length in the committee, and I am aware that the minister spoke with him. There were extensive discussions to try to come to some sort of accommodation.

The fact is that in western Canada, as well in my caucus, many people and communities are very upset, particularly in the Edmonton area with the way the boundaries commissions did their work. However this bill is not about the process of boundaries redistribution. The bill is about bringing certainty to something that is inevitable, and that is the change of boundaries. It occurs and it will happen. All this does is give us the certainty that it will be in place for the next election.

With all due respect to the member, he has a point, he has a problem, but it is not directly related to this bill and I do not feel that it is appropriate for me to comment further.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, we are very happy that western Canada obtained four more ridings. We agree with the electoral boundaries readjustment process, although we do not agree with the fact that Quebec is losing two ridings and that its demographic weight is being reduced from 25% to 24%.

But this has nothing to do with the bill. The fact is that we will soon have a new prime minister and that he has asked that the new electoral map be implemented as soon as possible to allow him to move his personal agenda forward.

The man does not come here, and he does not make any commitment on the important issues. We will not see his true colours before the election campaign. The problem is that we and the Canadian Alliance are being manipulated so that the new prime minister can map out his electoral strategy as he sees fit, and wipe out the Alliance also.

Very strange things are going on here, with the Alliance showing strong support and Alliance and Liberal members working closely together. We see them together all the time.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

10:50 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ted White Canadian Alliance North Vancouver, BC

Mr. Speaker, it may well be that the new prime minister would want these boundaries in place. In fact I suspect he does because last night he voted in favour of the bill. However that just happens to coincide with what the west wants as well.

In the west we want two additional seats in Alberta and two additional seats in British Columbia. It just happens to agree with what the new prime minister wants in this case.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

10:50 a.m.

Bloc

Ghislain Fournier Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to have the opportunity to speak to a topic of such significance for my constituents and all the other people in Quebec as well as in the rest of the country, of course. I am pleased to take part in this debate on changing the date when the new electoral map will come into force. This issue is of the utmost importance, in my view. It is all about respecting the laws of the land. It is also all about showing some respect for the people who elect us as MPs.

The government is asking that the representation order under Bill C-49 be effective on the first dissolution of Parliament, that is on April 1, 2004, or after that date. In other words, it is asking that the new electoral map, which gives three additional seats to Ontario, two to Alberta and two to British Columbia and which makes many other changes to ridings, come into force to benefit the party in power. This is too big a favour to ask of us.

To my colleagues I say no on my behalf and on behalf of my political party, the Bloc Quebecois. Some things are pretty clear though. An election is looming large on the horizon. The Liberal Party, with a majority in the House although it does not have the support of the majority of the people across the country, is trying to usurp privileges by setting the act aside and replacing it with another one. Is that the meaning of democracy you want to leave as a legacy?

The representation order was to come into effect at the earliest on August 26, 2004. If the new ridings are an absolute must to win the election, wait for another four months. It is not the end of the world, another four months plus or minus. Otherwise, do what we are doing. Do waht all the Bloc Quebecois candidates are doing: Work hard to get elected.

You are trying to do something really disgraceful. That is petty partisanship. That is totally unacceptable. What about the people's trust? What about the federal government's integrity? How dare you play into the hands of one individual by speeding up the coming into force of the new electoral map? In order to accommodate its new leader, the Liberal Party across the way is going against the spirit of the law.

Under section 25 of the Electoral Boundaries Adjustment Act, the representation order is effective on the first dissolution of Parliament that occurs at least one year after adoption of the change in question. That is a minimum. In other words, it cannot take effect until August 26, 2004.

So far, the electoral boundary adjustment process has been carried out in compliance with the legislation. Note that I have not said that it made use of all means allowed under that legislation. Is the government not duty bound to see that its own laws are complied with, in the best interests of everyone? Whom are they trying to convince of the usefulness of Bill C-49? Who is supposed to be served by it? Certainly not the general public, despite the claims to the contrary by those across the way.

It is not in anyone's best interests for a government to make use of its majority position in the House to undo an act that does not suit its electoral plans. This is antidemocratic. What impression is it giving, to our young people, for example? What about our international image, when it is trying to pass itself off as a model?

Now let us look at this bill from Quebec's point of view. The new boundaries are contrary to the interests of Quebec, and even more so those of the regions. The Bloc Quebecois and a considerable number of regional organizations have spoken out against the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission's decision to maintain the number of federal ridings in Quebec at 75, rather than bringing the number to 77, with the additional two reflecting its demographic weight, as the Bloc Quebecois was demanding.

It is simple: these measures reduce the demographic weight of the regions of Quebec. This too is unacceptable. The Liberal MPs from Quebec are not unaware of this, as they must admit. It is their duty, as they are well aware, to stand up and vote against this bill when the time comes.

I am a living testimonial to the problems caused by these new adjustments, and most certainly will not remain silent. With them, my constituents and those in the adjacent electoral districts would be doubly penalized.

For one thing, access to MPs will be harder for them. The great distances to our offices will be costly in time and money. I should point out that they are too poor to be able to spend money on anything that is not absolutely necessary, so they will simply be unable to travel to demand services to which they are entitled.

Also, they would see their situation worsen prematurely. I repeat that the member for Manicouagan and the Bloc Quebecois say no to Bill C-49. There are limits to injustice, and these would be exceeded if the bill were passed.

Several regions in Quebec have lost one or two ridings. For instance, the Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean region lost one; it has three left, whereas it used to have four. The Mauricie also lost one, and has only two left. This is not consistent with the needs of Quebec.

With this reform, Quebec's representation goes from 75 ridings out of 301 to 75 out of 308. This is a major drop, especially since the opposite should have happened. As I have said repeatedly, this should have been taken into account.

The Bloc Quebecois suggested that the number of seats allocated to Quebec federally be increased from 75 to 77. This would have made much more sense and would have been much fairer. It would have preserved the identity and increased the representativeness of the regions.

The people living in the regions are people like everyone else. How can their electoral weight be allowed to be less than that of people in urban centres or, worse yet, that of people from other states in the same federation? That is pure demagoguery.

Again, it is only fair to have ridings of a reasonable size that can be represented effectively by a member of Parliament. My riding of Manicouagan, for example, will cover 340,000 square kilometres, or 58 times P.E.I., which has four seats, and therefore four members of Parliament. The Island of Anticosti in my riding is larger than P.E.I. This gives you a pretty good idea of how huge the riding of Manicouagan is. I repeat that those who live there are full-fledged citizens.

Believe me, the current riding of Manicouagan is not all forest or all water. Many major issues are ongoing. To meet their MP, people have to travel by plane or boat. On the Lower North Shore, we do not have a road connecting us with the rest of Quebec yet. In winter, I have to use a snowmobile to visit my constituents and, listen to this, between Blanc-Sablon and Natashquan, there is no road at all for 500 kilometres.

However, people are still entitled to be properly represented, on the same footing as all Canadians. Of course, there are more people on Prince Edward Island, but one must admit that it is easier to meet people on the other side of the street than people who live three hours away by boat or plane.

Before I would support a government that wants to pass one law and repeal another for very partisan purposes, I would first defend my constituents and try once more to see them treated more fairly rather than more unfairly.

The distant regions of Quebec should not suffer so that citizens in Ontario, British Columbia or Alberta can be better represented. Quebec has a right to be fairly represented. In addition to taking away this right, there is an attempt to speed up the coming into force of the new electoral boundaries. Once again, I am against it and the Bloc Quebecois is against it. If this goes through, in addition to being underrepresented, we will suffer more consequences sooner or later.

It is just not right and not fair. I shall state my opposition formally. I am making enormous efforts to ensure that each of my constituents has equal access to the services I can provide as their member of Parliament. Unfortunately, I have not yet perfected the art of being everywhere at once. But it is certainly not for lack of trying.

The future leader of the Liberal Party has been saying that we need to decrease the democratic deficit. And then here are his colleagues ready to change the law to serve his electoral interests. If the member for LaSalle—Émard, with the help of his collaborators, is blatantly fixing the law for partisan purposes, when he is not even prime minster yet, should we not be seriously asking what he will do in the future?

Is the hon. member afraid to face the opposition in the House? He would like the next election to take place as soon as possible, probably next spring. Why such a hurry? If he were to abide by the dates set out in the act for the coming into force of the new boundaries, he would have the time to define a clear legislative platform. He would be able to state his opinion on issues that are important to Canadians and Quebeckers.

What does the man who aspires to be this government's leader fear? He is afraid of answering questions from the opposition and especially from the Bloc Quebecois. We are wondering about his sense of democracy. We have serious doubts about his respect for the fundamental values of the people. How could we think otherwise when a principle as fundamental to democracy as respect for the law is ignored by the very people who have been chosen to defend it?

What can we do when, at the highest level, at the parliamentary level, individual interests come before the the public good? We are not talking about petty quarrels here, we are talking about government rules and legislation.

We are also talking about being honest with the public. People rely on accurate information. Since this suits a few individuals acting out of pure partisanship, one law is being thrown out in favour of another. Power is being used for purposes that I personally feel are unjustified.

Where is the democracy in this? The basic principle of democracy is obeying the law. It is the government that will make the democratic deficit worse. What we are discussing today is not a simple matter of having MPs represent a certain number of constituents, it is an improper use and abuse of parliamentary power for strictly partisan, even personal reasons.

The Constitution commands us to abide by the law. The members opposite are hiding behind a new law to justify their actions. Do they think that the public is ignorant and that people are incapable of analyzing, understanding and judging their actions?

Quebeckers understand and know how to put things in perspective. They remember. On election day, we will remember the way democracy was used, laws abided by, and people in the regions treated. We will remember on election day and we will ask Quebeckers to vote against this antidemocratic government.

A word to those who are prepared to approve Bill C-49; if they cannot heed my advice, then at least let them respect the principle behind the new electoral map. Let them follow their conscience and vote against Bill C-49. Let them show some self-respect as citizens and parliamentarians and show respect for the constituents, taxpayers, and citizens of Quebec and Canada.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Gagnon Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to commend my hon. colleague for his comments that truly reflect reality.

I would like to ask my colleague the following question. During the democratic process launched by a commission, the Federal Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec, has he felt that the Liberals took an objective stand?

Along with members of my community, I took part in this democratic process. We appeared before the Electoral Boundaries Commission for Quebec. We were opposed to the second report. I even appeared before the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

I do not think that the Liberals have acted in good faith throughout this process. At one point, I was told that the Chibougamau-Chapais community in my riding of Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay would be transferred to the riding of Abitibi at the request of the municipality of Chibougamau. If that were to happen, the riding of Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay would lose 12,000 people.

I met with the municipal authorities and they told me that it was not true. They do not want to be annexed to Abitibi. They want to remain in Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay.

We are also being told that this is a democratic process and that population size must be taken into consideration. The region is of one mind on this. All stakeholders, all MPs, share the same opinion, and oppose the loss of an electoral district in the Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay region.

The Liberals on the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs voted against the unanimous report. I might again question the good faith of the Liberals in this process.

As well, we are dealing with a bill intended to move up the effective date of the electoral map. I say that the communities of interest involved, that is Saguenay and Lac-Saint-Jean, could have been allowed to delay the process—should there be an election held after August 2004—and to hold elections under the old boundaries.

This would have given the communities of interest time to get prepared. Why is that needed? Because the two regions contain two rather different entities: Lac-Saint-Jean, with a history of collaborative efforts and common interests, and the Saguenay district. Now they are being backed into a corner and told “This is the new way of doing things and you have to adopt it”.

Once again, I have doubts about the objectivity of this approach. The community is being sent a really bad message by the government. We have a major problem in our area: our youth are leaving us. If nothing is done, we stand to lose 25,000 young people over the next 15 years. We are doing everything we can. Young people are getting involved in politics and all social groups feel a commitment to solving this problem.

We know we are losing some of our industries, but now the federal Liberal government is telling us we are going to lose an MP, who will be replaced by an Economic Development Canada service point. I have some doubts about that.

This is what I would like to ask my colleague: does he get the feeling that the people in the area he represents share these concerns?

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Ghislain Fournier Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague, the member for Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay, for his question. This allows me to provide my views on what happened in my riding and his, of course.

My colleague is perfectly right when he says that this process has been sidetracked. I humbly believe that the decision was made earlier.

For example, in my riding, municipal councils, towns, organizations, the chamber of commerce, unions were unanimous. Here in the House, we were also unanimous. The Bloc Quebecois had requested two more members, not only for the demographic weight of my region, but also for Quebec as a whole. Indeed, all the submissions that were made asked for two more members. Everyone was unanimous on this. If one opposing submission had been made, I would have asked myself some serious questions. I would have said: “This is quite a submission. It carries a lot of weight, because it opposes all the others”.

There were about one hundred submissions. I did not count them, but all were in favour of the Bloc Quebecois' request to provide two members to Quebec and to keep the riding of Manicouagan the way it is now, that is to keep the same dimensions, because it was large enough, and also to keep the riding of Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay the way it is now.

Mr. Speaker, you are perfectly right. I believe this was a charade. It was decided in advance, and the government had to rush. It had to introduce a bill to shorten the time limits, to hold an early election as soon as possible to ensure that the next prime minister would not have to answer the opposition's questions in the House.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Marcel Gagnon Bloc Champlain, QC

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the remarks of my two colleagues. I would like to add my own opinion after the last speech I heard. I find the present situation utterly unfair and even unethical.

In the Mauricie area, everyone was also unanimously of the opinion that it made no sense to eliminate one of the three seats we have. Just like Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay, the Mauricie area is faced with the problem of its young people leaving to go elsewhere.

Even though the hon. member for LaSalle—Émard does not answer the questions being asked in the House, we know that at election time, when he travels throughout Canada, he says that he cares about the regions. Well, he lied. I am sorry I have to be that blunt. It is completely false. The only thing he is doing is serving his own interests and his own political agenda.

He does not answer the questions being asked in the House concerning the $45 billion surplus in the EI fund, for example, or the $3 billion in benefits withheld from seniors in the guaranteed income supplement program, or the fact that many of his companies pay their taxes in tax havens. He refuses to answer these questions, and he is using what should be a democratic piece of legislation to avoid sitting in the House. He wants to be the next prime minister without letting people know who he really is and what he intends to do when he is the prime minister.

What does my colleague from Manicouagan think about this? Personally, I am saddened by the fact that an area such as mine, his, and Lac-Saint-Jean—Saguenay are being deprived of the right to express themselves because some politician wants to look out for his own interests. I would like to hear my colleague's comments on this.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Before we proceed to the answer, I have something to say to the member for Champlain. In his remarks, he mentioned that a member lied. Before we go any further, I would ask the member to withdraw.

The member for Champlain has the floor.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Marcel Gagnon Bloc Champlain, QC

Mr. Speaker, you are right. Having occupied the position of Speaker in Quebec, I will certainly withdraw, but it does not change what I think.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Ghislain Fournier Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Speaker, if he did not lie, he certainly twisted the truth.

Therefore, I think that—

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Listen, we can play with words, but I do not want us to continue with this debate all day without showing respect for the practices and precedents of this House, which require that the integrity of any of our colleagues not be questioned. We may have differences with regard to our philosophies, our values and our processes, and that is quite alright. I simply do not want members to go too far.

The member for Manicouagan has the floor.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Ghislain Fournier Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Speaker, if I may, I have a personal opinion as a member of the Bloc Quebecois, and we plan to keep saying it as it is in that respect.

I agree with my hon. colleague. The legislation and the boundary changes show contempt for the people, the citizens. To give you an example, in my riding with which I am very familiar, there is no way the same service could be provided.

The government opposite has just demonstrated that there are indeed two classes of citizens in this country. People from across the country told us in Quebec they loved us, that change was coming and that there would be a place for us. Instead, we currently have a demographic deficit. As was so aptly described, our weight has dropped from 26% of the total population to 25%, in fact almost 24%. We would have needed two MPs more for all of Quebec, and the regions should not have been tampered with.

See how this government which claims to be a government for the regions is defending them. This is not a government for the regions but a government that tramples the rights of the regions.

Electoral Boundaries Readjustment ActGovernment Orders

11:15 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Inky Mark Canadian Alliance Dauphin—Swan River, MB

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to take part in the debate on behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada.

We should make it perfectly clear that the bill is not about boundary changes for the upcoming election. It is about pushing the date for the boundary changes up to an earlier date, from August 25 of next year to April 1 of next year.

For our viewing audience, I would like to give some background information.

On September 15 the Minister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons introduced legislation to accelerate the coming into force of the new electoral boundaries generated by the recently completed electoral redistribution process.

The new electoral boundaries were proclaimed on August 25, 2003, but, under the Electoral Boundaries Readjustment Act, they would not take effect until the first dissolution of Parliament occurring at least one year after proclamation, i.e., August 25, 2004.

As we have heard, the rumour is that the House may dissolve itself as early as November 7.

By virtue of the proposed legislation, this one year grace period would be shortened. The new boundaries set out in the 2003 representation order would now be enforced upon the first dissolution of Parliament occurring on or after April 1, 2004.

The April 1, 2004 date was selected following the public statement of the Chief Electoral Officer that he could be operationally ready to proceed with the new boundaries as of that date.

I raise the question, as other members already have this morning in the House, what is the rush? Why are we rushing ahead to move the date up to April 1, 2004?

There is no doubt that the leader in waiting for the Liberal Party is anxious and wants to call a quick early election, just like our current Prime Minister did in the last election in 2000.

Before the leader in waiting for the Liberal Party calls an election, Canadians need to find out who the man is. The only way that can be done is to actually have the next leader of the Liberal Party stand in the House and answer some very hard, serious questions. I am sure Canadians from coast to coast to coast would be interested to know what kind of person will be leading the Liberal Party in the next election.

As we know a lot of questions have been raised in the House about some of the past history of the former minister of finance and the dealings of his former company, CSL. People need to know whether he paid his share of Canadian taxes and whether his companies received grants that were really made up of Canadian tax dollars. We need to know whether he operated above board and in a transparent manner. The position of a prime minister is very important. He is the leader of the country. Besides that, there is plenty of time to have a fall election after the boundaries legislation comes into effect on August 25, 2004.

I came here in 1997, as did many members in the House, and since that date we have had two elections in the course of those six years. My understanding, according to the rules of operation, is that the mandate of any government is five years. Roughly, we have had a mandate plus one year and we have had two federal elections. Every time we have an election it costs the taxpayers a lot of money.

Maybe there is some rationale for fixed terms. Every four years on a set date the electorate would go to the polls so we would not have this manipulation of the system. Bill C-49 is a good example of manipulating the timelines and the dates as to when one can have an election. I do not think Canadians are looking for that. They are not looking for governments of the day to waste tax dollars.

This is not the first time that governments, certainly this Liberal government, have attempted to block riding changes. Just to recollect, this is not the first time the Liberals have moved to alter the date on which redistribution takes effect. Unlike their two previous attempts, this bill advances rather than delays the new boundaries. It is rather ironic. This one actually advances the changes; the previous attempts have wanted to delay changes.

In February 1994 many Liberal backbenchers objected when they saw the proposed new maps that followed the 1991 census. Their response was Bill C-18, which would have thrown out the work already done and suspended the redistribution process for two years. The end result would have been for the 1997 general election to be fought on boundaries drawn up after the 1981 census, some 16 years prior.

At the time, the Progressive Conservative Party had sufficient numbers in the Senate to amend Bill C-18. The suspension period was reduced to one year from two. The boundaries commissions were allowed to complete their current phase of their work. After one year the boundaries commissions could continue their work from the point where it was suspended. The end result was that Bill C-18 could not kill redistribution and that an election call in 1997 would have to be fought on boundaries drawn on the basis of the 1991 census.

The Liberals tried again in 1995 with Bill C-69. That bill died on the Order Paper when Progressive Conservative senators insisted on a proper examination of the bill and its related issues in committee.

While we are talking about boundary changes, let me make some comments about boundary changes. There is no doubt that boundary changes are always good news because the country changes, the population base changes and demographics change from province to province. The current change is good news for the west because B.C. and Alberta will get more seats. In central Canada Ontario will get more seats.

In other words, I guess it is an advantage to grow one's province on a population basis, to have more babies. Maybe we need to go back to the plan that Quebec used to have to give grants to families to have more kids. Maybe it would be a good program for all of Canada because we know that one deficit in our country is people. That is why our immigration numbers have increased substantially. Perhaps we could do more to increase our own numbers in the country through birth.

On the subject of boundaries, there are two issues I would like to bring up. They are the changes to the boundaries relative to size and population base. It is a world phenomenon that people are moving from rural areas to urban areas. Not only is it happening in this country but it is happening around the world. That is going to create problems for ridings in our country that are very rural in nature. I noticed that with some of the boundaries that have changed there seems to an access to large urban centres in most areas. I suppose that eventually the population base in the rural areas will be outnumbered and outvoted by the folks in the city. I suppose that is inevitable with the change in demographics.

One thing I would like to say is that there are also limits to boundary changes in terms of geography. I know that many of the rural ridings which are very rural in Canada have no option except to get bigger. My own riding of Dauphin—Swan River is going to annex, I believe, another two municipalities to the riding and it is already over 200 miles long and over 100 miles wide. The question that needs to be raised is just how much space and population can one member of Parliament serve?

Already my riding has five provincial constituencies in it. Whenever I leave home it takes literally half a day sitting in my vehicle to get from place to place. I am wasting half the day if I am driving. I am fortunate enough that during the summer I can hop in my airplane and fly around the riding, but most people do not have that access.

Again we need to look at service. In Dauphin--Swan River I have eight satellite offices. I have eight offices in the riding and a staff of 11, but most members do not do that. I am very blessed with good staff and they do a great job. In other words, it is about serving the public but there are still limitations to that, not only on the geographic side but also on the dollar side. It costs money to provide service and that is an issue that needs to be raised.

Another thing with which I have a concern, like many MPs in the House, is the names that will come with the changes in the boundaries. At House leaders meetings there have been lists of submissions from members of Parliament who want the names changed to reflect the ridings. I agree that the members do know best, not a commission that was established because of politics. Members know the history of their ridings.

For example, originally my own riding was two federal ridings. One was called Marquette and the other was Dauphin--Swan River. The problem with the boundary change was that they forgot about Marquette which is of huge historical significance to the riding. Marquette was one of the first French explorers to explore that part of the country. Southwestern Manitoba at one time was known by Marquette. I believe that Joliet and Marquette explored the headwaters of the Mississippi right down to the mouth of the Mississippi. It is very important to the folks who now encompass the south half of my riding. They want the name Marquette put back where it rightfully should be.

I hope that through Bill C-51 all the name changes that have been proposed will be put back where they should be.

Let me close by saying that we as a party support the bill. We do not support this great rush to change the dates to give the new leader of the Liberal Party the option of calling a snap election anytime he wishes after April 1. Canadians deserve better.

Canadians need time in the House to find out just exactly who this new leader of the Liberal Party will be. To be fair to Canadians, I believe that the date of August 25 should remain. In any case, Bill C-51 talks about the name changes submitted by the members of the House. We support the bill. We will certainly vote in support of the bill, but we are not very happy about the intent of this bill.

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11:30 a.m.

Halifax West Nova Scotia

Liberal

Geoff Regan LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, one of the issues raised by the hon. member for Dauphin--Swan River was the name changes. I am not sure whether he heard today the leader of the government in the House indicate that he will be sharing with House leaders of all the parties today a draft bill that deals with the name changes. I hope the member will be satisfied with what he sees in terms of his riding. Others will be pleased to see the changes they have asked for in that bill. That should deal with that issue.

One of the things we have heard today a number of times from the Bloc as well as from others is the notion that this whole idea was initiated because of the next leader of our party, or because the member for LaSalle--Émard wishes to do this. I find it interesting that members opposite persist in this fiction, especially in view of the fact that the member for North Vancouver from the Alliance Party made it very clear today that his House leader initiated this idea last spring before anybody else initiated it. For them to persist in the fiction that it comes from one member on our side when in fact we have had an outright statement--

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11:30 a.m.

Liberal

André Harvey Liberal Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

And the Bloc leader would agree with that.

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11:30 a.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

The Bloc leader I am sure would concur with that. He would be aware of it. He should speak to the House leader. He should speak to the House leader of other parties. He would find the same thing out, that it was raised by the House leader of the Alliance, as he readily acknowledges and accepts.

I do not understand why they persist in the fiction that it comes from one member on this side when we know that it was initiated from that side, and with good reason. It makes sense. Why have us go into the next year with uncertainty about whether or not we are going to be operating under old boundaries or new boundaries? Why not have boundaries that reflect the 2001 census rather than the 1991 census? Why have an election based upon a 12 year old map when the technology today allows us to do this more quickly? The process would take less time and we would not have an election based upon an electoral map from 12 years ago. It does not make any sense.

I would like the member to address these points.

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11:30 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Inky Mark Canadian Alliance Dauphin—Swan River, MB

Mr. Speaker, the reality is that we can have the next election on the new boundaries. All we have to do is wait until August 25. That is pretty simple. It does not take a brain surgeon to figure that one out. What is the rush? The fact remains that from 1997 to 2004, which is seven years, we are going to end up with three elections. Does anyone think that the taxpayers out there watching this are going to be happy? We will have had three elections in seven years when the mandate for one election is actually five years.

It is pretty obvious that members on the government side are playing games with this whole business of an election and when they should call it. It is not fair to the taxpayers. If there is one reason not to have it, it is the money that we are wasting by doing it.

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11:35 a.m.

NDP

Yvon Godin NDP Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Mr. Speaker, the member said that maybe the only reason the new prime minister, or the person he thinks will be the prime minister before he is elected, is the person that he does not want Canadians to really know. Canadians do not know who he is yet. The only thing that people know is that he was supposedly doing what the prime minister used to tell him to do, but he is supposed to be a new person. Why is he worrying about waiting until the fall of next year?

It seems that the opposition is being accused because it wants to follow the law of our country. The law on the boundaries was produced after the last commission produced its report 12 months ago and the 12 months was for a reason. Why are we talking about an election when in normal times, and I know we are not living in normal times around here, but in normal times an election is called every four years? That would bring us to next fall. Now because of that the opposition will be accused of not being democratic, like the Canadian Alliance has said.

I will be very sorry for the members of the Progressive Conservative Party when it becomes the Conservative Party. It is going to have to join those two groups and the Canadian Alliance already agrees with the Liberals that we should go ahead and please the member for LaSalle—Émard when he is not even in his seat yet as prime minister and all of that.

I would like the member to comment on the feeling I have and maybe the feeling he has about the whole suggestion that we are anti-democratic if we do not allow this change to go through. Why do we have to please only one person in our country, which is the member for LaSalle—Émard? Why do we have to change everything in our country for one person? He does not exist yet, though he is supposed to exist come November 15.

I would like some comments on that, please.

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11:35 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Inky Mark Canadian Alliance Dauphin—Swan River, MB

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from the NDP for his question.

It is rather ironic, as I indicated in my speech, that the Liberals were the ones in 1994 and 1995 who wanted to block the changes to the boundaries. For 16 years they wanted to block them. That was before the 1993 election. All of a sudden they now want to reverse the trend and go ahead of the one year period. It makes no sense.

There is no doubt, as I said earlier, that Canadians will want to know the real deal. Who are they going to vote for as prime minister of this country? They want to know the prime minister in waiting, if that is the case, with the changes that are going to come about in the next week, I believe, with the leadership process for the Liberal Party. It is only fair to all Canadians that whoever the new prime minister is stands in the House and answers some hard questions because he has a lot to account for in his term of office in the House.