House of Commons Hansard #142 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was leader.

Topics

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11:35 a.m.

An hon. member

The employment insurance fund

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11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

The minister spoke to us about Canada's great success, when most western countries are in recession. That has been achieved by this government under the leadership of the current Prime Minister.

Today, the Bloc members want to defeat the current government led by the current Prime Minister in the House of Commons. Today, under the Prime Minister's leadership, this country has brought in six balanced budgets. Better still, the Prime Minister created almost three million jobs while in office. The future looks very bright.

Canada is no longer in danger of becoming a third world country, as the Wall Street Journal , I think, claimed years ago. We are now known as the Northern Tiger.

There is much more. We have cut income tax by $100 billion. This is the largest reduction in income tax ever in Canada. Who voted against these cuts? Those same members opposite. Believe it or not, they voted against these cuts.

To make Canada an economic leader in the 21st century, we invested in science, research and development and created the Canadian Foundation for Innovation, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research and Genome Canada. Once again, in most cases, the opposition voted against these initiatives.

Thanks to the connecting Canadians strategy and our community access program, we have helped make Canada a world leader in high technology. This government is responsible for these achievements, which the members opposite choose to ignore. Today, they want to defeat this government with this non-confidence motion.

The hon. members opposite want to talk about other government programs. Naturally, I have a long list here, and thanks to their encouragement, I can name more of them. I could talk about the billions of dollars invested in modernizing infrastructure. Who can forget the excellent initiative of our government and our Prime Minister to upgrade the highway to Saguenay, for example.

I remember a few Bloc members who said that this announcement would never be made. It was, thanks to the hon. member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord and, of course, our Prime Minister and our cabinet. This is just one of many initiatives with which the hon. members opposite are familiar. In fact, the day this announcement was made, the other side of the House did not find much to criticize.

To fight homelessness in Canadian cities, we established a strategy to prevent homelessness.

To prepare our farmers for the 21st century, we created a new agricultural policy framework.

We have invested in our environment. In fact, the Bloc Quebecois just congratulated us for supporting and advancing the Kyoto protocol.

This morning, the Bloc Quebecois asked this government to step down, but congratulated it for its accomplishments such as the Kyoto protocol. They also recognize in advance that the Prime Minister's successor will be from the same political party. This is paradoxical.

If an opposition party moves a motion that might defeat the government, this is usually because it wants to replace the government itself. That is the parliamentary convention. The Prime Minister is appointed by the Governor General to form and lead a government. What is odd this time is that the opposition is saying that the Prime Minister and his government should step down, but that this government is so deserving of praise that it should be replaced by another government from the same political party. This is unheard of.

I challenge you, who are so objective in these matters, to find another example in the history of Canada where a non-confidence motion was presented with the hope of replacing the government with the same political party. I have never heard of such a thing. This is extremely inconsistent, as the deputy government whip says.

I could list other accomplishments, for there have been many in recent years.

We are certainly not finished. We intend to continue, of course, with the support of Canadians, to provide good governance or, as Karen Carpenter once put it, we have only just begun.

I want to get back to the issue of the confidence convention just in case the hon. member across the way is not 100% convinced, which I doubt, because of course he is a very understanding person and should understand these things readily.

Nevertheless, I refer to page 37 of Marleau and Montpetit. For the benefit of viewers, although I am not speaking to them but to the Chair, they might know that this is our procedural bible around here. It is what expresses how this place works. Page 37 states:

What constitutes a question of confidence in the government varies...Confidence is not a matter of parliamentary procedure, nor is it something on which the Speaker can be asked to rule. It is generally acknowledged, however, that confidence motions may be:

explicitly worded motions which state, in express terms, that the House has, or has not, confidence in the government;--

Now, what is the government, in parliamentary terms? It is the group of parliamentarians asked by one person to form a ministry: the Prime Minister. The Governor General does not ask a group of people to form a government. The Governor General asks one person, in this case one man, the Prime Minister, the member for Saint-Maurice, to be the Prime Minister and to form a ministry.

So when the Prime Minister is asked to resign pursuant to a vote of this House, it is asking him and his ministry, in other words, his government, to resign. That is a fact. It cannot be otherwise. People across the way can consult as many constitutional experts as they like. I am sure they could not come up with a different conclusion.

Let me read from page 43 of Marleau and Montpetit:

When the government is defeated on a vote on a question of confidence in the House, the Prime Minister must...resign--

This is calling for the resignation of the Prime Minister and his government. This is not a matter of interpretation.

It is not my interpretation. I am reading from the rules of the House.

In one case, the government of Prime Minister Sir John A. Macdonald, there is an historical precedent which I am sure will interest the Chair if not the members across the way. It was in 1873, and I quote, that the Conservative government of Sir John A. Macdonald, “embroiled in a scandal, resigned rather than face near-certain defeat” on a non-confidence vote.

In other words, in 1873, the Prime Minister, faced with a very serious question, knew that he would be defeated in the House and knew that this would cause the resignation of his government. Rather than have that occur, which would have occurred, as established, he chose to resign himself. This leaves no doubt. As early as 1873, then, the Prime Minister of Canada recognized that if he and his government were defeated on a motion that asked him to resign, it would cause a dissolution. There is no doubt about that. We have a tableful of procedural manuals that tell us that and nothing that tells us anything else.

Now the hon.member over the way is asking me to read the motion, and I will be pleased to do so. It says:

That, although the Prime Minister has a mandate and should be able to end it as he chooses—

True, and we certainly agree with that.

—given the democratic imbalance that currently prevails and that results in the government's decision-making occurring outside this House, and more broadly outside any public institution—

All that is their fancy introduction, and then we have the motion itself:

—this House calls upon the Prime Minister to leaveoffice—

In other words, to resign. The hon. member adds:

—as soon as possible after November 14, 2003

The member over the way is telling us that, if the PM is asked to step down, and a date is specified in the motion, it does not count. That is what he is saying, and a similar motion with no deadline, would.

Referring to the motion calling for John A. Macdonald's resignation, I do not know whether it proposed he do so after November 7. Surely he would not have stepped down if the date of November 7 had been specified in the motion.

That is what the members across the way are trying to tell us, and it is ridiculous. This motion calls upon the Prime Minister and his government to resign. If such a motion were passed by the House, it would be an expression of this House's non-confidence in the government. This is crystal clear. We know what the outcome would be.

If the members across the way wanted to congratulate the future leader of the Liberals, as they now claim they do, they could very easily have said that this House congratulates the future leader of the Liberal party, since he or she will surely be the next prime minister of Canada. In fact, that is in part what the motion says. To take away the non-confidence aspect, maybe they might want to just amend their motion to simply congratulate the Liberals.

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11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Mr. Speaker, it might be crystal clear for the government House leader, but I find his arguments rather muddy and inconsistent.

Several months ago, the current Prime Minister announced that he would be leaving office in February. When he made his announcement, did anyone think it would mean the dissolution of Parliament? No, which goes to prove how ridiculous the member's arguments are.

Our request is based on the fact that we currently have a two-headed government. We have two prime ministers. One who sits here but has no power, and one who is on the outside, enjoying all the perks that come with the job without taking any risks at all.

The government is left paralyzed. We ask questions and get answers that are in fact non-answers. The members opposite do not want to answer us. They do not want to take any position that would go against the positions of the one who is standing behind the curtain. There has to be a limit to such demagogy.

What the minister said has nothing to do with this issue. Maybe we should ask John A. Macdonald about this, but unfortunately he is no longer with us. But presuming to know what John A. Macdonald would think of this is going a bit too far. The precedent the member mentioned has nothing to do with this motion either.

All we are asking is for the current Prime Minister to leave office earlier than what he has announced, so that we can deal with the real prime minister and ask him real questions about the real agenda of the government.

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11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, I once again thank the member, who said that the future leader of the Liberal Party will be, and these are his words, “the real prime minister”. I thank him for this show of confidence, in spite of the motion of non-confidence.

At the beginning of the comments period, the hon. member tried to draw a parallel along these lines: a Prime Minister who announces his resignation eventually loses the confidence of the House, so to speak. According to him, to pursue the parallel, this should also cause an election to be called. Of course, this is not the case. I would draw the attention of the hon. member to Marleau and Montpetit, at page 42, which clearly states:

The end of a Ministry is triggered by the death, resignation or dismissal of the Prime Minister.

Under “Resignation of a Prime Minister”, at the bottom of the page, it states:

Resignation may be prompted by a defeat in a general election, by the operation of the confidence convention alone—

Back to that.

—by the operation of the confidence convention followed by a defeat in a general election, or by other reasons, including the Prime Minister's desire to retire from public life.

Further, if a Prime Minister retires from public life, this does not have the effect of resulting in an election or an expression of non-confidence. Non-confidence is caused by a vote in the House demanding, asking or calling for the Prime Minister to leave the public office he or she is holding and to which he or she was appointed by Her Excellency the Governor General. That is what confidence is all about. It has nothing to do with the Prime Minister's desire to retire in February.

No one remains in office forever. Even the hon. member opposite may no longer be a member some day. To say today that he will be leaving does not mean that his seat will become vacant overnight. It will become vacant in due course, and not because someone said today that he will be resigning at some point in the future. That is not how it works. The hon. member is confusing, perhaps to suit his purposes, or perhaps inadvertently—

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11:50 a.m.

An hon. member

Or both.

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11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Fine, or both. At any rate, there is confusion in the hon. member's mind about a Prime Minister announcing he will be resigning in the future and a vote in this House demanding his resignation. There is a difference.

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11:55 a.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, I will have an opportunity to rebut a lot of what the chief technocrats from the government have to say, but I am very pleased to be involved in this Alice in Wonderland explanation that the member has given.

I guess my question would be, after all the accolades the House leader of the government has given, that he would not be adverse to having the next election fought with his current Prime Minister. After all the wonderful things he said about the Prime Minister and his government, why would he not vote for this so they could go to the polls with the current Prime Minister and let the people decide whether he should or should not resign?

Would the hon. House leader not suggest that we go there sooner than later with the current Prime Minister as his leader?

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11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

There we go, Mr. Speaker, finally one member across the way recognizes that it is a vote of non-confidence. He has just indicated that the result of this vote would cause the election. He has asked why we would not vote with them which would cause us to go to the polls now.

It has been said by a member across the way, in the House of Commons, notwithstanding the fact that several others have pretended that it is the opposite. Now we know the true motivation of this item.

Should this vote have carried, does anyone seriously believe that members across the way would not, five minutes, later say that the government has been defeated, which of course it would have been, and that this causes a dissolution, which of course they would say?

The vote is two days away and some of them are saying it already. Finally the truth is coming out.

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11:55 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that it is Alice in Wonderland, but it is certainly in a dream world that the government House Leader is living in today.

I would like to read to him a quick summary of a story that he heard probably back in 1998 when Preston Manning gave him a little lecture on how this actually worked.

The story is like this. Once upon a time there was a king named Jean I and he had two classes of people who worked with him, the lords and ladies who occupied the front rows and then all the peasants who occupied the backbenches.

One day a group of them went out and faced the fiery dragon of the confidence convention. Many of them were consumed by fire. He mentioned in this story that Lord Boudriavere, whoever that would have been, who had once been a busboy in the castle cafeteria but had risen to high prominence through his faithful service to King Jean, said “I see an opportunity here to maintain and increase our control”.

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11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. We do not name members in joke or otherwise, or in quotations.

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11:55 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I am sorry, I did not hear it personally, but if the hon. member for Fraser Valley did, I ask him to please refrain from doing so.

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Noon

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, this entire thing is in Hansard . The member may want to look it up. I am just paraphrasing.

Anyway Lord Boudriavere said to King Jean “I see an opportunity here to maintain and increase our control over the peasants. Let us imply”, indirectly of course, “that fired dragon of confidence still lives. We can point to the smoke belching out of the fire as evidence. Let's tell the backbenchers that henceforth they can only go out castle with royal permission and I will give it or deny it”.

Mr. Speaker, if I could just quote quickly from Beauchesne's, page 49, it states:

...the House removed references in the Standing Orders which described votable motions on allotted days as questions of confidence.

The rules have been changed, Mr. House Leader--

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Noon

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. First, our Constitution is not a fairytale.

Second, page 37 of Marleau and Montpetit explicitly indicates to us what confidence is.

I thank the hon. member for having raised the busboy issue. I am pleased to say that today is October 23 and we are two days away from October 25, which I sometimes call jokingly busboy day. It will represent the 37th anniversary of the day when I arrived here on Parliament Hill as a busboy of the parliamentary restaurant. Therefore, I thank the hon. member for raising it, although I know he was doing it in jest.

To be more serious, on the issue of the dragon, it is a very important issue for those who are spooked by fairytales around here. I once knew a Reform leader, the same guy who had this morbid fear of dragons. If I remember correctly, a whole bunch of people around here chewed him up pretty badly. He was kicked out to be replaced by a new dragon and he too, after about a year or a year and a half was kicked out again to be replaced by the present dragon Leader of the Opposition who will soon be consumed by the offsprings that he has created at the other end of the House in the Conservative Party.

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Noon

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, in a sense I feel bad for people watching this because people are throwing out quotes from Montpetit and Beauchesne’s, to which the folks at home of course do not have access.

Let me summarize it by saying that the rules are quite clear. Unless the government designates this motion as a motion of non-confidence, it is not. It is simply not a motion of non-confidence. What it is, is a concern expressed today by a motion from the Bloc Quebecois that we do not have the most accountable and responsible government that we could or should have because the person calling the shots on the government side is not here to answer for his actions day after day in the House of Commons. That is what it amounts to.

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Noon

An hon. member

Neither of them.

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Noon

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Neither of them are here. We ask questions. We try to get at important details of government policy, we try to find out initiatives, we try to detect a vision over there and we try to get some clue to help guide Canadians as they make decisions about their future, but unfortunately that is proving very difficult.

The motion tries to address it by saying that as soon as possible we should make the transition. This is not a judgment call. I have lots to say about why I do not think the Liberal government is the best one, but that is not really what this is about. This is about it being in the best interest of Canada to have a leader of the Liberal Party answering questions in the House for the actions of his party and his government. Failure to do that means basically that we are adrift. We are adrift in a bone yard right now while we try to detect some semblance of vision, order and good government. We are having extreme difficulty doing that, as are Canadians generally.

Right now we basically have a parallel universe going on. We have a government that pretends to be governing here. Some of the members sit in the front benches. They do not answer questions but they go through the facade. They try to formulate political answers, but really they are answering to a commander who is simply not here. It is a parallel universe in which we live.

The member for LaSalle—Émard is in control of the Liberal Party. We could debate whether that is good or bad, but that is not the debate for today. The debate today is, if he is in control, which he is, if he is calling the shots, which he is, if the cabinet is consulting with him on a day to day decisions, which it is, if he is planning the next budget, which he is, if he is announcing things across the country, which he has been doing continually, if he is promising things to people, lobbyists, interest groups and so on day after day, then he should answer for it here in the House.

That is all it is about. I think that is pretty straightforward. It is called responsible and accountable government. This place exists to ensure that it continues in good stead, that democracy is not shunted aside, that it is not a frivolous afterthought, that it is a key part of what makes Canada a great country. That is very difficult, for all the reasons I just listed.

The member for LaSalle—Émard will take control eventually. He will be the next prime minister up to the next election, perhaps not afterward, but certainly in those months in between. He should take control now and come to the House and respond to our concerns.

This is not idle chatter or just a wish list. It is key and critical to good government. Right now what we have is the member for LaSalle—Émard, who is not in the cabinet, travelling the country making announcements. He is acting like the minister of everything right now. He is the minister in charge of all things, yet he accounts for and is responsible for nothing.

He goes to Nova Scotia or out to Kelowna. We are glad to see him out travelling the country. He announces disaster relief programs. I would love to ask him, here in the House, what are the plans, how many dollars are involved, when can we expect that, how will it be delivered. However it is just an announcement made out in the field with no accountability here in the House. He did the same thing in British Columbia.

He is convening a parallel universe first ministers conference in and around the Grey Cup game, not as a prime minister, just as a lowly backbencher interested in what the score of the game is. He is holding parallel caucus meetings. He is talking about the democratic deficit. That is an ironic one. He goes behind closed doors, they order in the pizza and beer, apparently, and they talk about the democratic deficit. However they do not come into the House where they actually have to address the democratic deficit.

The other night he held a meeting about social policy, which is interesting. One day his minions are in the press saying they will cut every single department's spending, except the day after that, they say they are not actually going to cut any spending, but maybe they will cut spending. It all depends on what people want to hear.

How do departments plan for that? How does the government function under this parallel universe that seems to be going on?

The member for LaSalle—Émard acts like the defence minister, travelling the country talking about how he will use the armed forces to aid the civil powers in disaster relief. He acts like the intergovernmental affairs ministers by promising to meet with the provincial leaders at his whim and on his schedule, even though he is not a member of the cabinet, let alone forming his own government. He is the de facto finance minister. He is making decisions on financing, telling Canadians how they will be governed and how many dollars are available, yet he has no accountability for any of that here in the House.

In the short term, this 18 month transition from one prime minister to the next started off as a serious problem among the Liberal backbenchers. It has now become a serious problem for Canada. It is making a laughingstock of the democratic process.

Having an accountable and responsible government means that it is accountable and responsible to whom? To the voters. And, through the voters, to their elected representatives here in the House. Failure to do that makes a mockery of democracy, which is what we are seeing here day after day.

Why does it matter? Why does it matter to the average Canadian who runs things over there? It may be true. That is a different debate, but we could argue that it does not really matter which Liberal is in charge because they all act like Liberals. That is a good debate for the stump when we hit an election next year, but that is not today's debate.

Today's debate is about why it matters to Canadians who is in the prime minister's chair. It matters for the following reasons.

First of all, it is important that the people in charge, the actual government, do not contradict one another day after day about the vision, the purpose, the role, and the future of the country. How much longer are we going to have what I mentioned earlier, where they are going to cut back every single department, except that they are going to not cut back any of the departments, except that they are going to spend more in some of the departments? How can the government plan anything with those kind of diverse messages?

What do we do when the current Prime Minister, the one who is not here right now but is overseas somewhere, is over in Malaysia embarrassing the country by shaking hands with people who are accusing the Jews of ruling the world? Meanwhile, the member for LaSalle—Émard says it is an atrocious thing and that we should be standing up to people like that and putting them in their place. Who is in charge? Is it the new Liberal leader from LaSalle—Émard who thinks that should be condemned? Or is it the current Prime Minister, who does not think any note needs to be taken of it?

Their contradictions in their messages are continuous. They are not good for the country and they are not good for our reputation abroad. Frankly, they are not good for our reputation at home.

Why does it matter? It affects federal-provincial relations. The member for LaSalle—Émard went to the Union of British Columbia Municipalities and basically said, “I am going to make sure that we transfer federal gasoline tax revenue to the cities.” He promised that at the UBCM and got a standing ovation. This is something that has been in our policy book on this side of the House for 15 years.

The member for LaSalle—Émard did not do it during his nine years as finance minister, but he has seen the light. I say hallelujah, good on him. Let us make the change in policy and let us make it a part of our government efforts. Let us rally around the flag and make the change necessary to give municipalities, through the provinces, the money they need to get the job done.

But what happened here when we brought that motion to the House? It passed, except that the finance minister refused to vote on the motion. The finance minister left the House rather than vote. He never voted on it. The current finance minister says he does not believe we should transfer gasoline tax revenue to the cities and the provinces. He does not believe in it.

In fact, during the leadership debate when he was still in the leadership race, he said that the member for LaSalle—Émard was never going to do it, that he will never be able to do it, that it is strictly a campaign promise and is not serious or legitimate. That is what the finance member said about the member for LaSalle—Émard. He refused to endorse the motion, yet the member for LaSalle—Émard, the future prime minister, the Liberal leader, the man who is calling the shots, says, “Let's do it”. However, we see the finance minister refusing.

How can provinces or cities plan their revenue streams? We are getting no assurances from over there. We are getting completely contradictory messages from the two of them, in this case, the finance minister and the former finance minister. It is not good for federal-provincial relations. This sort of stuff is confusing to the provinces as they plan their future.

It also matters, as I mentioned earlier, in regard to accountable and responsible government. When we have ministers currently sitting in the front row and saying that before they make announcements they vet them with the member for LaSalle—Émard, then the member for LaSalle—Émard has to be in this House to account for it. Not only is he not in the House, he does not sit on--

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12:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I will ask the House to give the Chair a moment, please. I do not believe there is any intent to do anything to circumvent any rules or traditions of the House, but certainly with reference to members' absence from the House, I think we are all familiar with the tremendous strain on our time to be at different places at different times for different reasons, all very valid. I know the hon. member for Fraser Valley is very respectful of the practices of this House.

I might take the opportunity also to add the following, and this is not specifically for the member for Fraser Valley. As the debate continues to unfold today, I also ask members to be conscious of the practice in terms of reflecting on past votes of the House.

I simply ask people to be judicious in those areas.

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12:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I accept what you say. I was not clear. I was not mentioning whether someone is here in the House right now. I just mentioned that it is impossible under our rules to ask the member for LaSalle—Émard a question during question period, for example, because he is not part of the cabinet. That is what I meant by not being in the House. I should be clear. I am not talking about this instant. I am talking about day after day, week after week, month after month, when decisions are being made by him and his supporters. I do not mind that, as it is the way democracy works, but when the decision maker sits outside of cabinet, then this place does not work as well as it should.

I am just saying that the member for LaSalle—Émard is not available to us to ask questions of day after day. He is not appointed to any committee in the House of Commons. We can never talk to him or find out what he wants to do in a committee structure, where we could relate to one another. He is not a member of a committee. He is not appointed to any task force or special committee or travelling group of parliamentarians where we or Canadians could ask questions of him. There is no official way to get at him, yet he controls the apparatus of government. That is what this motion is about today.

Once one controls the apparatus of government, it is time to switch leaders, folks. It is time for them to say they accept that the member for LaSalle—Émard is the next prime minister between now and the next election, that he calls the shots, that he is the leader. Good on him, but that therefore would mean that he should be accountable for what he does.

He says he wants to address the democratic deficit. We cannot even ask him the first question about anything. He completely avoids democratic accountability. Completely. How is that improving the democratic system here in Canada? There is nearly a crisis, he tells people somewhere in the country, but he will not come to the House of Commons. The system is set up in such a way that it is impossible to even ask him about his priorities there.

Let me go further on why it matters and why we should we care about this. It matters, for example, on the issue of Kyoto, which has been raised. Again, leaving aside whether we think Kyoto is the best thing since sliced bread or an apocalyptic agreement signed somewhere overseas, leaving that aside, the government says Kyoto needs to be implemented and as rapidly as possible, while the member for LaSalle—Émard says he needs more consultation on this subject. He is not sure that it should be implemented that way. In fact, he has some concerns about how it will affect the business climate and wants to consult broadly before he implements a Kyoto implementation plan.

What are people supposed to do with that? Do they want to invest $2 billion in the tar sands or not? Do they want to renovate their homes or not? Do they want to buy a fuel efficient car or not? Do they want to have research and development funds available or not? Are they sure? They cannot be sure. They cannot be sure because someone other than the current cabinet and Prime Minister is in charge behind the scenes.

Whether it is Kyoto or another business plan, an industrial development plan, a shipbuilding subsidy plan, whatever it might be, how can we choose what to invest in when the person calling the shots and making the plans is not the person who can answer the questions here in the House of Commons?

We get conflicting reports. We hear that Kyoto now is in danger of not being implemented. We hear that we will not be able to meet our targets. Does the member for LaSalle—Émard think that is good or does he think it is bad? Does he think we are going to have to double our efforts or cut them in half? No one knows because we cannot ask him a question. The business climate is affected. Decision making is affected. Investment decisions are affected.

It also matters because the personal decisions of Canadians are affected. As an example, this side of the House has been fighting for months to get the government to be fair on the pensions paid to war veterans' widows. We want the VIP pension applied to all of them who deserve it. We think it is a relatively small budget item, but it is not small in the lives of those widows, I can tell everyone. They need that supplement. We think they deserve it. We think we should follow through on committee recommendations to make it universal for all those who deserve it. What does the member for LaSalle—Émard think? Who knows? We cannot ask him. We cannot find him. We cannot put it to the government, which he in essence is running, because he is not in the cabinet.

He is not sitting over there answering the question whether or not a pension for VIP recipients is a good idea? It is a personal thing to tens of thousands of widows who need to know, not next year, not after the next election, not six months or a year from now. They need to know before Christmas. That pension may only be $200 a month, but to a pensioner $200 a month is the difference between a can of dog food and a decent meal. What is the matter with the government? This matters.

Personal decisions are being affected because of indecision in the federal government. It is because the member for LaSalle--Émard is not sitting in this place where he can answer these questions and make decisions. If he does not want to give widows a pension, then let us find out. Let us put it on the list of things for the campaign trail. In the meantime, let us not leave those widows hanging.

Personal decisions are being affected by this. This has gone on long enough. Let us get the member into the Prime Minister's chair, hold his feet to the fire, and let him be accountable, not just for the issue of widows' pensions, but for all decisions affecting people in a personal way. I am talking about everything from GST rebates to how we handle tax breaks for certain citizens. Student loans is another example. All of these matters are being held in abeyance while we wait for the Liberal Party to get its act together and transfer power to the Prime Minister who would call the shots.

This matters because of transparency. We have been asking questions in the House over the last while, and while they probably can be answered, they are not being answered by the current government. We have asked why millions of dollars in assets that were on the member for LaSalle--Émard's disclosure of assets, when he was finance minister, have mysteriously disappeared. They are gone. He did not sell them. They have been conveniently left off the list. The company that conveniently received millions of dollars in government contracts was conveniently left off the list.

We tried to chase this matter down by using the rules of the House. We put an Order Paper question. We asked, how many dollars in contracts did the member for LaSalle--Émard's companies, the CSL empire, receive from the government? The response was $137,000. It is public knowledge that at least $25 million in contracts had been given to him and his companies. This is again about transparency.

I would like to ask the member for LaSalle--Émard a question, but I cannot. I can rhetorically ask a question, but I cannot ask him personally. Maybe there is an explanation. I do not think so, but maybe there is something he could say about how it happened, maybe he forgot, maybe he signed the wrong paper. I do not know what his excuse might be.

Day after day these revelations come up and there is no transparency. We cannot ask about them; we cannot get clarification. We are left with responses from the government that do not jive with the facts. That is not transparency. That is not open. That is not democratic. It is not what Canadians expect.

The country always needs a vision of where it is going. That vision comes at election time. We are putting together, I hope, a big conservative option for Canadians that will detail a vision of the country and will excite them. It will be one that will be positive and one that they could vote for. We cannot just have a vision of the country at election time. Without a vision, the people perish, it says in scriptures. That is not just a theological expression of belief.

It is the fact that without explicit direction from the top on everything from accountability, transparency, democracy and fiscal accountability, where are Canadians supposed to go? What is the emphasis of the government? What is the passion that it has for the country? That is hard to see in this place.

The Bloc Québécois brought this motion forward today. I agree with it in that it is not an expression of non-confidence in the government because that will come at election time. It is an expression, a desire, almost a begging, to give us the Prime Minister who will call the shots so that we can get on with painting a vision for all Canadians for the 21st century.

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12:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Lynne Yelich Canadian Alliance Blackstrap, SK

Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed listening to the comments from my colleague. He suggested that the member for LaSalle--Émard should be in the House and should be answering questions.

I have a question for the hon. member. Should the member for LaSalle--Émard be trying to renew some relationships with the United States that have been severed very badly over the last couple of months?

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12:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for her question.

It is hard to imagine a government that could have done more damage to our relationship with our American friends than what has been done by the current administration.

That being said, hope springs eternal. We always hope that the next leader will be better. Certainly, I think it will be a cornerstone of the Conservative Party's foreign policy not to kowtow to the Americans, but not to poke them in the eye with a burnt stick either just for the fun of it.

I hope that the member for LaSalle—Émard charts a new course in foreign policy that includes a kinder, gentler approach toward our American trading partners, whether it be the mad cow problem, the softwood lumber issue or the 95% of our trade that goes back and forth across the border freely and without encumbrance which we must maintain in order to maintain our standard of living.

My position, though, is that until the member for LaSalle—Émard gets into the Prime Minister's chair, he can theorize about this and he can talk about how it would be nice to improve relationships. However, right now the current Prime Minister is over in Malaysia shaking hands with George Bush and other leaders, with some of whom he should not be shaking hands. He is the one calling the shots. He is the one either establishing relationships, improving relationships or maintaining the status quo.

Meanwhile, the status quo is not good enough for Canadians, but that is all we have on the table until such time as the member for LaSalle—Émard actually grabs the reins of power. The sooner the better on foreign and fiscal policy. The sooner the better on the democratic deficit. There is no indication at this stage that things will be any different than they are today because we have nobody over there who can represent Canada except, of course, the current Prime Minister.

I would argue that even if we do not like Liberals and even if we cannot stand the member for LaSalle—Émard, it is still better for the country to have the person calling the shots behind the scenes to be the figurehead who represents Canada at home and abroad. We need that person to be the personification of the government, good or bad.

I believe we will hold the government's feet to the fire for what it has done over the last 10 years. The member for LaSalle—Émard will not escape this unscathed. He was there when all these decisions were made. He sat at the cabinet table mute, silent, while mistakes were made in dealing with our American counterparts.

However, whatever we think of all of that, surely we would agree that the better place for the person calling the shots is in the Prime Minister's chair answering for the country in question period, representing the country abroad as the leader of our country, and fixing the problems that have been manifested over the years by a Liberal government which has not cared to treat our major trading partner with the decency and respect it deserves.

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October 23rd, 2003 / 12:25 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Grant McNally Canadian Alliance Dewdney—Alouette, BC

Mr. Speaker, my colleague points out the truth of the matter, which is that there is a parallel government in place right now. It is simply behind the scenes.

We see the member for LaSalle—Émard, the next Prime Minister, travelling around the country, visiting disaster sites and doing the kinds of things a Prime Minister would normally do while in office.

Earlier we heard from the government House leader. He was making the assertion that because the motion was before the House today, it was a confidence motion and that because members would possibly support the motion, this would replace the government with the same kind of government.

Something that the House leader forgot to mention was that members of the Liberal Party have called on the current Prime Minister to step aside. He must apply that same argument to his own colleagues if he is saying that about opposition members, which he did not allude to. That is surprising.

We will have an unusual situation here. We will have the leader of the Liberal Party who will take the reins of his party likely on November 14 yet not take the office of the Prime Minister until February some time. There will be a lag time of several months, unprecedented in Canadian history, when these kinds of important decisions will have to be made. How will that be operationalized? It is for that reason that the motion is before the House, so that democracy can be served.

My colleague alluded to that. I was wondering if he might be able to elaborate specifically on how the country will operate during the lag time between the time the next leader is leader of his party and when he formally becomes Prime Minister, even though he is acting as the Prime Minister behind the scenes now?

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12:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question.

I would like to address the issue of confidence. The government House leader has continually said over the years that everything is basically a motion of confidence. If we wanted to see the clock as 5:00 p.m. and the government House leader said it was only 4:30 p.m., I bet he would call that a question of confidence. He would probably bring the House down over that.

It is absolutely clear in Beauchesne's and Marleau and Montpetit that unless the government designates this as a motion of confidence, it is not. That is the end of the argument.

We could look at England. It has motions that it passes and defeats day after day, including government bills and amendments. It does not bring down the government unless expressly followed by a motion of non-confidence. The government House leader knows that. He simply uses it to threaten the backbenchers. He should stop it. I hope the new Prime Minister from LaSalle--Émard, in his democratic deficit package, will expressly say those words when he takes the reins of power.

The member for LaSalle--Émard says we must give more power to committees and more influence to backbench MPs. I will use an example of the aboriginal fishing strategy that we are dealing with right now. It is currently in the courts because the government chooses to ignore Parliament. Parliament has disallowed the aboriginal fishing strategy in its scrutiny of regulations. The regulations giving the government power to initiate the aboriginal fishing strategy exceed the legislative mandate. That is clear. It has been unanimous from the scrutiny of regulations committee, yet the government ignores it.

The fisheries committee unanimously said that the aboriginal fishing strategy should be stopped, but did that change the mind of the government? No, it ignored the unanimous, all party agreement from all sides of the House, including Liberals. It was ignored.

The courts have said that the aboriginal fishing strategy is racist and should be stopped. Those are not my words, the courts have said it. Parliament has said it through committee and Parliament has said it through the scrutiny of regulations, which says that it exceeded the government's legislative authority and mandate. What does the member for LaSalle--Émard think of that?

We are in the middle of salmon fishing season. In my riding, aboriginal folk are threatening and have already blocked the CN railway. There are threats of violence on the river. There are people fishing out of season, using the wrong equipment, ignoring government regulations and doing it publicly.

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12:30 p.m.

An hon. member

It is chaos.

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12:30 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Chuck Strahl Canadian Alliance Fraser Valley, BC

It is chaos.

What does the member for LaSalle--Émard want to do about this? I would like to know. Does he think that committees should give direction to the government and the ministers? Does he think ministers should ignore court rulings and override the scrutiny of regulations committee? What does he believe about the issue itself?

Meanwhile people's lives are at stake. The comments in the paper at home about the Fraser River are that there are going to be lives lost over this. It is not a trite matter then. What does the member for LaSalle--Émard think?

The Prime Minister needs to take control of this issue. He needs to give direction to his ministers. He needs to listen to the committees that have unanimously told him about the problem and solution. When he does that, then he would be giving a vision to the country and to the aboriginal people about where they should go from here. We can debate whether it is a good idea or not, but where do they go from here?

The fact that he cannot, does not and will not, means that the country suffers, democracy suffers and the country wanders like the Fraser River.

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12:30 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with my colleague, the member for St. John's East, who would like to share some of his comments with respect to the motion.

I appreciate that my colleague from the Bloc has brought forward the motion. I listened to the convoluted logic of the government House leader and as I said earlier, I can honestly say I was very confused with his Alice in Wonderland logic as to whether it is or is not a confidence motion.

In my opinion, this is not a confidence motion. This is a question that is being asked in every coffee shop across the country. It is a question that is being put to me constantly in the shopping centres, on the streets, in the parking lots, in phone calls. People are asking why is the Prime Minister hanging on by his finger nails when he should be passing the baton to the next prime minister, the soon to be leader of the Liberal Party, and provide Canadians with what they are desperately searching for, and that is good government?

Unfortunately we do not have that. We have a Prime Minster who, for any number of reasons which I will get into, has decided that he will hang on for as long as he can. I must admit it will be to the detriment not only of good governance but to the detriment of this country. He is doing a disservice not only to the country and to the people who demand government, but he is doing a disservice to himself.

I wish, if nothing else comes from this debate today, that we pass the message to the current Prime Minister, “Please, sir, quit doing this disservice to yourself. Please get on with your retirement years and do what it is that you wish to do, write a book or smoke some marijuana”, which is the last thing I heard that he wanted to do when it was legalized. “Please get on with your life and let Canadians get on with what they would like to see right now, which is good government”.

To the chief technocrat of the government benches, the government House leader, no, this is not a vote of confidence. This is simply a motion that has been put forward which says, “Please, Mr. Prime Minister, with all your good graces, as soon after the new leader is chosen in your party, please make way for that leader and let Canadians get on with their work”.

It was said earlier that this is without precedence. This is something we are living in history. It is a historic moment because never before has there been this kind of transition from one leader to another. We have seen that within our own parties. I have lived through a leadership convention and when it was over the new leader took over the day after. We have seen it in the Alliance Party. We have seen it in the Reform Party. We have seen it in the Bloc. We have seen it everywhere except on the benches of the government.

The fact is there are forces at play. Unfortunately they are forces of personal egos, which I do not think have any place right now in the form of good government in this country.

Why can the Prime Minister not leave? Why can he not accept this as being a friendly motion to suggest that once this move is taken, Canadians would like to see this transpire very amicably between him and the member for LaSalle—Émard? The problem is that there may be a little more animosity between the member for LaSalle—Émard and the current Prime Minister than we would wish to have in our country.

There are a number of issues. One is ego. We have talked about that. As a matter of fact, there is a headline that reads “PM's delay delivers 'bad government': The Prime Minister letting ego dictate lengthy good-bye”. That is not good for the country.

That sentiment, which is shared not only in the newspaper headings but as I said earlier, in the coffee shops, is one which we and the backbench members of the government get to listen to on a regular basis. I do not think there is one soul over there on those benches who has not heard it, if not once, at least a thousand times. There is not one person on those benches and on these benches who does not realize that the next leader of the Liberal Party will be the member for LaSalle—Émard.

Let us get on with business. Let us not drag this thing on until February and keep a rudderless government in office when Canadians are crying out in desperation to deal with issues that are so very important. That is where we have to get.

There is no magic about February. The only magic is that there is an individual who does not want to let go, an individual whose ego is bigger than the country and certainly bigger than Centre Block. It is a person who probably just wants to stick around to celebrate a birthday in the House again. It is an individual who probably just wants to stick around because there is something magic about 40 years. We just heard about 37 years from the chief technocrat on the government side. Maybe he wants to stick around simply because it is 40 years.

The motivation of why we should be here in the House is to provide good leadership to Canadians which they so justly deserve. Maybe he just wants to stick around and have those fingers hanging onto the power because he wants to do his swan song. He wants to have his meeting at the summit of the Americas. Maybe he wants to take his international travel to a new height.

That is not good government. That is not what Canadians deserve. Let us make sure that the individual who is going to replace him does so sooner than later.

There is also a serious problem. I have been involved in business for a number of years. When an individual stays a little too long and when that individual is not wanted, there is a real danger of sabotage. There is a danger of that same sabotage taking place here in the government. That is really a concern.

If the existing Prime Minister wants to make it so unhealthy for the new prime minister, the only ones who will be affected are the country and its citizens. We should not put ourselves in that position. We should not allow the outgoing Prime Minister the time to be able to sabotage the incoming prime minister, because nobody wins. The only thing that wins is ego.

There are so many issues which are unable to be attended to right now. We heard the finance minister say he could not put forward a budget in February because he does not know the direction the new prime minister is going to take. We need a fiscal plan put forward. If we cannot have a fiscal plan put forward until after the new leader is prime minister, we are going to be rudderless again for that four or five months.

The finance minister said that we cannot have that fiscal stability which we crave and need so much in this country. We have a loonie that is soaring which is good. There are some issues that have to be dealt with but the finance minister cannot deal with them because he has not been given direction by the new prime minister. We have to set the budget. We have to have the long term vision defined as to where we are going. We have heard other members talk about the democratic deficit. We have to talk about that and put it forward to Canadians but we cannot do that because the new prime minister does not have the ability to do it.

We have to deal with one of the most serious issues right now, which is Canada-U.S. relations. We have a Prime Minister who should not be there after November 15, who cannot even get a meeting with our major trading partner, the President of the United States. Sure, he had the photo op. I am sure there were a whole bunch of little bureaucrats, little minions running around so that the Prime Minister would be seen with President Bush, and he was. It was wonderful. He went on a tour up the river but they cannot sit down in a room and talk prime minister to president right now about softwood lumber. They cannot talk about mad cow disease which is devastating my community. It is devastating agriculture as it has never been devastated before.

We do not have a Prime Minister who can sit down with the President of the United States to deal with major issues because the president does not want to talk to him. Let us fix the problem. Let us not wait until February. Let us fix the problem after November 15 so we can get those relations back together.

Our economy depends on this. This is not about ego. This is not about hanging on just because there are some personal animosities. This is about our country. This is about what we have to achieve in order to retain our standard of living the way we want it retained. Let us get off the pot and make sure we redevelop those relationships with the U.S.

What about federal-provincial relationships? Cooperative federalism has been in a deficit in the government for the last 10 years. The prime minister in waiting has attempted to develop those cooperative federal-provincial relationships.

Let us start now. Let us not wait until February. Let us start in November. We can work toward a great plan to bring the provinces together instead of trying to divide them. We now have an opportunity to make our country much stronger with the provinces and territories. Let us not wait for six months just because of ego, just because somebody wants to hang on to power for that much longer.

What about our military? What about the military that we have sent to Afghanistan? What about their requirements? Some tough decisions have to be made not only by the Minister of Finance, but by the Prime Minister in order to put the resources together and into a priority for the military at the current time. We need that desperately.

What about natural disasters, as was talked about? Mad cow is one, the fires in British Columbia are another and the hurricane in Nova Scotia is another. There is a great need. I have always stood in the House and said that what we really need is a natural disaster plan. We need something we can take off the shelf and say “Here is a consistent plan”, but that is a whole speech for a different day. What we need now is a Prime Minister who is prepared to tell his ministers to go forward and fix the problems, to put some financial compensation packages on the table that we can accept and which Canadians deserve right now with some leadership.

I am going to let my colleague take over from here. This is not a non-confidence motion. This is a motion that should be and has to be accepted by everybody, especially the government of the day. Now is the time to get the message across and have the current Prime Minister retire, and retire with some shred of dignity, which we have to insist that he take.