Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the very hon. member for Kitchener Centre. She is a very good member of Parliament and I am sure that her speech will be of great interest to all hon. members.
I first want to comment on a couple of items which were raised by the member for Medicine Hat. As a preamble, today's opposition day motion mentions that we look at the Auditor General's report. Obviously it covers a broad range of subject matter and pretty well leaves it open to discuss virtually anything one wants.
The member for Medicine Hat decided to do what opposition members are supposed to do, which is to take information and present part of it in such a way as to paint a picture that is somewhat different from the reality. As an example, he suggested that the government should finally identify all of the contracts that were included in the $1 billion HRDC grants program as well as other HRDC programs.
The member probably forgot that the government actually issued about 10,000 pieces of paper. Every member of Parliament received details of every contract that was there. If the member would check, he would see on the HRDC website that all contracts are listed for members and the public to see. As to the indictment that there is no information, I think the member misspoke.
The member for Medicine Hat also said that there are five million social insurance cards out there in excess of the population of Canada. Members can say whatever they want in this place but they should take the opportunity to look at the information underlying that, which I did. I asked the minister for HRDC. She made a phone call and obtained the answer.
For the benefit of Canadians, this is why there is a difference of five million social insurance cards. Some 2.6 million of the cards are dormant. There are 600,000 social insurance numbers that belong to deceased persons. They are inactive and will be dropped off the list. One million social insurance numbers were allocated to persons who are non-resident in Canada and would not be on our census. People such as foreign investors who want to earn income in Canada are assigned a social insurance number so they can report their income and receive the appropriate tax credits, et cetera. It is part of the deal. I am told there are also 133,000 Canadians who reside abroad but still maintain their Canadian citizenship and have a social insurance number, et cetera, and report on their world income. On adding the numbers up, the total is about five million.
There have been some differences. Seven hundred thousand people of the so-called five million actually are accounted for in the difference in the time from when the census was taken. It is a lag. The population does move but there was a discrepancy. The number of social insurance cards that existed at the date of the census would have to be adjusted to account for that 700,000.
If one asks the questions, one will get the answers and will not be in the position of simply falling into the trap that the member for Medicine Hat did which was to suggest, “I heard someone say we had five million unauthorized cards floating around. Is that not awful? Look at the irresponsible government”. That is just not the case. However the member is doing his job by giving incomplete information and hoping that Canadians will fall for it.
We are here to discuss probably the most open-ended question one could ever imagine. It is clear that our job as parliamentarians is to do the best we can to ensure that the public funds are protected and that they are used appropriately, wisely and effectively. Members have called for accountability and value for money. However, other members have suggested that sometimes money should be spent for example on a health related program and it may be that during the period of accountability a number of lives were saved or the number of problems went down.
How do we place a value on the health or the lives of a number of Canadians? Is $25 million too much to spend to save lives in Canada?
It is important to understand that when we do things in our legislation and our programs they are done after having given due consideration to our responsibility as a government to inform Canadians, to ensure Canadians are protected in our society and to ensure they have an opportunity to be healthy.
It is very difficult to put a dollar value on the many things that we can do.
The Auditor General asked three questions that need to be dealt with. First, is the government keeping proper accounts and records and presenting its financial information accurately? This is the financial attest auditing.
Second, did the government collect or spend an authorized amount of money and for the purposes intended by Parliament? This is the compliance auditing.
Third, were programs run economically and efficiently? Does the government have the means and the measures to measure their effectiveness? This is the value for money audit.
When we do our job we can answer these questions. We have a tremendous amount of resources.
This morning Mr. Desautels, the former auditor general, appeared as a witness before the government operations and estimates committee. He was the auditor general for 10 years and is well-known to all of us. He often was very pointed in his reports but was always fair in his reporting when problems were identified. He also was quick to point out when remedial actions were taken to make sure the problems identified were dealt with in an effective and efficient manner and on a timely basis.
One area that Mr. Desautels talked about, and one which is important for us to acknowledge, is the area of government operations. Quite frankly, in any business in which I have ever been involved, about three-quarters of the costs of doing anything in this life has to do with people. It is human resources costs.
Whether we are operating a hospital or operating a business, our payroll cost, the cost of training our employees properly, keeping them up to date and making sure their needs are taken care of so they will do good work on behalf of our organization, is a very important aspect.
In the Auditor General's last report there was a lot of talk about ethics and value within the civil service. There was a lot of talk about issues such as whistleblowers. Should civil servants, who see difficulties within their own areas for which they have direct knowledge, be able to come forward and say that something is not right and that it should be fixed, without being afraid of repercussions, either to their job or maybe their success over the longer term of their career?
I think the House has basically given the public service the indication that it is in the best interest of Canada that problems are identified, no matter how they are identified, and that people should never be afraid to come forward and say that we need to continue to look for ways to do a better job to safeguard the assets of Canadian taxpayers and to use that money wisely and effectively.
One of the specific aspects that the Auditor General raised in the report was that there seemed to be an increasing reliance on contract and part time workers. I can recall being at the public accounts committee when it dealt with that. One of the explanations given by the Auditor General was that it took too long to hire a full time person and that it was actually more efficient for a department to get a human body in place doing the work based on part time and contract work.
This is not simply a matter of government doing every job in the public service. We are there to provide on a broader base the guidance to ensure that our public service has the tools to do the job properly. We are confident that we have an excellent public service. Public servants do the best they can with the tools that they are given.