House of Commons Hansard #76 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was iraq.

Topics

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March 24th, 2003 / 4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Art Eggleton Liberal York Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, the motion before us from the Canadian Alliance is in four parts. The first part is the part which all of the discussion has been about today, where there is a difference of opinion, but I think there is a lot of support, maybe not unanimous support but a lot, for the other three parts. The second part of the motion talks about support for Canadian servicemen and servicewomen. Of course we support them. The third part talks about the innocent people of Iraq and suggests support and sympathy and the desire to be involved in reconstruction. The fourth part of the motion talks about humanitarian assistance, which I am again absolutely sure that every member of the House wants to see happen.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask you if the House would perhaps give its consent to the four parts of the motion being voted on separately. If there is unanimous agreement, then let us have the opportunity to vote.

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4:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Is there unanimous consent?

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Some hon. members

Agreed.

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Some hon. members

No.

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Liberal

Art Eggleton Liberal York Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, that is very disappointing. There is a lot of support for parts of this motion, but if the Alliance were serious about getting that support, it would not be playing the kind of political games it is and which it now has denied that to happened.

The Alliance members like to say that they support the people and that they reflect what the people want. Yet on the weekend we saw in two polls. In one poll, 71% of Canadians support the position of the government with respect to Iraq. In the other poll, two-thirds of Canadians support the government. That party clearly does not reflect what the majority of Canadians want. The majority have clearly indicated their support for the government in this matter.

I strongly support that. It is a principled position and it is an important one. The war is unnecessary, certainly unnecessary at this time and probably very unnecessary at all. War should always be a last resort and there was progress being made to find a peaceful solution. The United Nations was clearly on the track of disarmament. The chief weapons inspector, Mr. Blix, was doing his job and indicated that in fact progress was being made. He did not say the work was all done. He said that progress was being made and more time was required. I am sorry that more time was not given.

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4:40 p.m.

An hon. member

How much time would you like, another 10 or 12 years?

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4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Art Eggleton Liberal York Centre, ON

When talking about war, one has to be very careful. Look at the damage and terrible things that are happening in that war now. If we could have avoided it through further work on disarmament, and I believe we could have, then that is what we should have done. That is the principled position taken the government. That is the principled position which is supported by the people of Canada in majority.

Of course if one examines Mr. Bush's remarks, he has never been clearly on the path of disarmament. That was the United Nations' endeavour. He talked about regime change. There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein is a brutal dictator. There is no doubt we want him to go. There is no doubt that the Iraqi people will be far better off without him.

If regime change is what this is all about, then it begs the question, who is next after Saddam Hussein? After all, there are a lot of brutal dictators still left in this world and a lot of people who violate human rights. I thought it was absolutely atrocious that the head of the country of Libya, who violates human rights, should become the head of the human rights commission. There are a lot of such people who exist in this world.

There is North Korea. I consider North Korea to be a more clear and present danger, as the words go, than Iraq. Iraq in this conflict has not shown a very strong ability to defend itself or to attack. It has not attacked any of its neighbours. One of the things that was feared was that it would probably launch scud missiles against Israel, but it has not done that. In fact it has lost a lot of the territory from which it could launch them. Obviously it is not quite the strong danger that some people have tried to make it out to be.

Who is next is one of the questions. Then the other question is, who decides? Quite obviously the President of the United States and the Prime Minister of the U.K. have decided to go around the United Nations process. I know the United Nations is not a perfect institution. It does need reform but it is our only institution for international discussion, for keeping things within a multilateral process and, as such, is quite vital for us. I believe we have to continue in that process. Otherwise, might becomes right. In other words, the countries that are the strongest go off and do what they want to do. I do not think that is in the best interests of the people of this world at all.

Therefore, who is next and who decides are important questions. Those are things that I think are very much in question as a result of this action by these countries that are part of the coalition.

I want to point out, as we talk about our friendship and our trading relationship with the United States, that yes, the United States and the American people are very close friends of ours, they are allies of ours and that will continue. That will not stop. We are very committed to the campaign against terrorism. We have committed more troops to Afghanistan than many of these 35 or 40 countries have committed to the Iraq effort, which the United States lists as supporters. We have been there with them. We have lost troops. We have had casualties in Afghanistan.

We are working with our United States allies in terms of the defence of this continent, Norad being one of the best instruments of that, with the smart border programs and all the things we are working on together to help ensure the safety of the people who live on this North American continent.

They will continue to be our friends and allies. I know that some of them are not very happy with our position on this but friends do disagree. We disagreed before. We did not go Vietnam. We disagreed with them on that, we disagreed with them on Cuba and we disagree with them on this one. On many other occasions though we have stood shoulder to shoulder, as we continue to do in the campaign against terrorism and in particular the effort in Afghanistan.

Some people talk about the trading relationship. The trading relationship is driven by the business communities in our two countries. I can tell members that they will want to keep it going. Regarding United States businesses, we are their biggest customer, far bigger than any other country in the world. They will continue to want to export their goods and services into our country. They will not want to stop that.

In terms of what Canada exports there, bear in mind that we are the number one foreign country in terms of the provision of energy to the United States of America, whether it is oil, natural gas or electricity. That trading partnership will continue. Yes, there are always problems with softwood lumber or this or that, but they all predate this kind of decision about Iraq in any event. I think we will get through all of this and still be great friends and great allies.

We hope and pray that the war will be quick and that the amount of suffering and casualties will be kept to a minimum. So far that looks to be the case. It is going rather quickly but we do not know, of course, until they get to Baghdad just how much opposition might occur.

After the war is over, winning the peace may prove to be more difficult than winning the war. There will be a long period of time to try to establish a civil society in Iraq and to try to establish some form of democracy in a country that really has not had it and to try to deal with the ethnic divisions within that country. Initially it would appear that there will be a military governor from the United States and that will create a lot of controversy in that entire region. Let us hope that this conflict can be over quickly and that it can be contained so it does not spread to other parts of the region or become a conflict of civilizations.

I believe in the position we have taken and therefore I cannot support the first part of the Alliance motion. I wish we had an opportunity to support the other parts but we have been denied that.

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4:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jim Gouk Canadian Alliance Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, BC

Mr. Speaker, one thing I heard the hon. member say in his speech was that he felt that things were on track in Iraq, that everything was going okay and that had we maintained the status quo, things would have started to come together.

However I would point out to him first that this has been going on for 12 years. He said that the war was so devastating on the people. In actual fact the allied forces, the coalition, have been acting very responsibility, keeping any civilian casualties to an absolute minimum and backing off when it appears that there is a potential that Saddam Hussein's forces is using civilians as human shields. They are acting extremely responsibly.

The member said that things were on track and we needed to give him a little more time. First, I would point out to him that many people claim the sanctions, which have been in place for 12 years, are as bad if not worse than the war itself. Second, the containment necessary to keep Saddam Hussein in check, which I would think he would accept as necessary under this status quo, is costing upwards of $1 billion a day, something to which Canada is not even contributing.

As far as the inspectors being on track, there are 100 inspectors. In my riding, a big rural riding, we have 100 RCMP officers. We are famous for marijuana growth in the Slocan Valley. Those 100 RCMP officers are having trouble finding those grow ops. Iraq is half the size of British Columbia. What does he expect the 100 inspectors to accomplish in a country that size and how long should people have to suffer under--

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4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I am sorry to interrupt. The hon. member for York Centre.

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Liberal

Art Eggleton Liberal York Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, I do not think it has been an issue as to the number of inspectors. I think that most countries at the United Nations said that if Mr. Blix wanted more he could get more. He said, no, that he felt he had the number of people he needed. He just needed more time to carry it out but he believed that disarmament could be achieved.

The member asks, what about the last dozen years. Yes, it is quite true that Saddam Hussein got away with an awful lot for an awful long period of time. There I think we give credit to President Bush for putting up the pressure, for creating the kind of circumstances that the inspectors could operate in and actually achieve things. However, then at the end, instead of giving the inspectors the full time they needed to do the job, and I believe they could have done the job, he went over the top and pulled out of the United Nations process and attacked. I believe that was the wrong decision.

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NDP

Dick Proctor NDP Palliser, SK

Mr. Speaker, I want to begin by congratulating the member and the former minister on a very comprehensive speech.

He said that winning the peace may be more difficult than winning the war. My question for him is on that basis.

The New York Times reported in its edition yesterday that only American contractors would be allowed to bid on the restoration of Iraq. Could the member for York Centre comment on that?

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Liberal

Art Eggleton Liberal York Centre, ON

Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that this war is costing the United States treasury an awful lot of money. I suppose it will try to find means to recover it. I would not be surprised if we found familiar names of oil companies working in Iraq before long, names of companies based in the United States.

However I think we have a big risk though beyond the war and that is in the time of occupation with an American being a military governor, a la MacArthur at the end of the second world war in Japan. That is a very risky business. I think it will create a lot of animosity with the Arab and Muslim world. It will not be the end of this challenge and this problem that is faced.

I hope that does not prove to be the case but war frequently does not go the way we expect it to. Winning the peace can be also a very difficult matter.

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4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Don Boudria Liberal Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. There have been consultations among parties in the House and I believe you would find unanimous consent for the following motion: that the motion relating to government orders, ways and means proceedings, No. 6. be deemed to have been put and a division thereon demanded and deferred until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, March 25.

The reason for this motion is to permit hon. members to see the budget bill one day earlier than they would without this motion.

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The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

Does the hon. government House leader have unanimous consent to propose the motion?

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Some hon. members

Agreed.

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Some hon. members

No.

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Canadian Alliance

Leon Benoit Canadian Alliance Lakeland, AB

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Edmonton North.

In my 10 minutes I will read the amended version of the motion we are debating today just to remind people what we are talking about. Then I want to do a reality check for members of the governing party in particular, but also for some members of the opposition parties down the way. I will present six short points as a reality check. That is important. Then I will talk about support for our military, which is one of the key areas in our motion. The amended motion reads:

That this House:

(1) recognize the legitimacy of the decision of the Allied international coalition of military forces to enforce Iraq's compliance with its international obligations under successive resolutions of the United Nations Security Council, with a view to restoring international peace and security including justice in the Middle East region;

(2) express its unequivocal support for the Canadian service men and women, and other personnel serving in an exchange program with the United States and for those service men and women performing escort duties for British and United States Ships, our full confidence in them and the hope that all will return safely to their homes;

(3) extend to the innocent people of Iraq its support and sympathy during the military action to disarm Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction and the reconstruction period that will follow; and

(4) urge the government to commit itself to help the Iraqi people, including through humanitarian assistance, to build a new Iraq at peace with itself and with its neighbours.

It is the second point that most of my presentation will deal with. I first want to present six points as a reality check to members of the House. I have heard a lot of things stated again today that I think are not in touch with reality.

First, existing UN Security Council resolutions already provide for the use of force to disarm Iraq and to restore peace and security in the area. The gulf war did not end in an armistice; it ended in a ceasefire. We talked about the Security Council resolutions that spelled out the terms of the ceasefire. Saddam Hussein clearly has not met the conditions of that ceasefire, of that there is no doubt. Therefore action to be taken is clearly within international law.

The second point of clarification as a reality check is since Saddam Hussein came to power, more than one million people have died as a result of his heinous rule as a dictator.

Third, to the extent that Saddam Hussein has complied with the UN, it is only ever happened under threat of force. There are three occasions. When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1991, it was only through the use of U.S. and other forces, including Canadian forces, that Saddam Hussein was pushed out of Kuwait to end that invasion. By 1995, a short four years later, Saddam Hussein was amassing troops to invade Kuwait yet again. It was only the amassing of troops on the border of Iraq once again that stopped him from invading Kuwait such a short time after the armistice agreement. Also, the only reason that weapons inspectors went back into Iraq was because of the amassing of troops on the border once again.

Saddam Hussein understands one language and that is the language of a very real threat of force. That is what led to this war and let there be no doubt about that.

The fourth point is that the disarmament of Iraq is necessary for the long term security of our world. It is necessary for the collective interests of our key historic allies and therefore, inherently in the national interests of Canada itself. We should remember that. The government in fact has betrayed Canadians and their historic allies on this issue.

The fifth point is the Liberals have left Canada standing for nothing, no principle, no alternative, no vision. The Liberals have left Canada standing with no one. We are standing on the outside watching our allies deal with this situation which is a true and very real threat to our nation.

The sixth point is a reality check. The Canadian Alliance has taken a position on this issue and we are not with Saddam Hussein. We will not remain neutral as the government has done on this issue. We will stand with our allies and our friends as we have always done. The government should take note of that and it should be there with our allies as well. It is absolutely disgusting that it is not. It is absolutely disgusting that the government is simply unwilling to commit our nation to taking action against this heinous dictator who has killed over 1.2 million people. That is a reality check.

I want to speak about the second part of our motion which deals with the unequivocal support of the Canadian men and women serving in this war. Interestingly enough, we know the government has said time and again until very recently that no Canadian troops will have anything to do with dealing with Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

It is interesting to note that over the last few days we have seen the government creeping toward saying that there are a few men and women on exchange programs with the United States and the United Kingdom and they will fight. Over the last day or two the defence minister has said that we are helping out with the situation in Iraq through our three naval vessels that are leading a battle group of allies in the area. They are providing escorts to ships going to and coming from that area and are doing interdiction to try to pick out ships that may be carrying weapons of mass destruction and so on.

It is interesting that we have seen the government not officially change its position, but certainly creep toward saying it took the position against involvement in Iraq to a position where it is doing something at least. It is absolutely embarrassing to have that contradiction.

The Prime Minister has said that this cause in Iraq is not a cause in which Canadian lives should be put at risk, yet Canadian lives are at risk. I agree that our people on the exchange program should stay there. I also agree that our frigates and our battleships should be involved in escorting allies in and out.

Why did the government not come clean up front and say that we are involved? Why have we not made a much larger contribution to dethroning Saddam Hussein and removing his regime and his weapons of mass destruction? Those are questions the government has to answer for Canadians.

I stand here today with pride saying that our men and women are as good as any in the world and that they are involved at least to some extent. They know we should be involved more, but at least they are involved to some extent in dealing with the situation in Iraq. I stand behind them absolutely on that. Unfortunately, the government does not.

The government has shown words of support for our serving men and women, but the kind of support our military personnel needs more than anything else is to be provided with the resources they need to do their jobs as well as they possibly can. That means we need more people in our forces. The government has cut the forces back from 80,000 to under 60,000. We need to restore it to the 80,000 when the Liberals came to power.

We have to re-equip our men and women so they are working with acceptable equipment in doing their job in important missions like the mission in Iraq they will be involved in in the summer and like the mission that is going on now in Iraq. They have to have proper equipment, yet they do not. There is one example with which I can better explain just how bad the situation has become.

The Canadian Forces are operating with 40-year-old Sea Kings without proper night vision equipment. If the new helicopters were on board, the helicopter contract which the government cancelled, the effectiveness of our frigates that are worth about $1 billion apiece would be multiplied several fold. Because inadequate helicopters are on board, they can only perform a small fraction of the missions they would otherwise be able to perform when it comes to the exact work they are doing in the gulf, the escort work and especially the interdiction work.

The government should be ashamed. The fact is that these helicopters are not capable. They are no longer safe. A report was done by a captain who was hired to do exactly that, to point out the shortfalls in the Sea King and their equipment. When I raised this matter with the minister in the House he tried to deny it. He tried to say that the chief of defence staff somehow overrides all of these reports, even if they are done by military experts such as Captain Eric Hill. He should be ashamed of that. If we want to show support for Canadian military personnel we give them the resources they need and stop supporting them only with hollow words.

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5:05 p.m.

Glengarry—Prescott—Russell Ontario

Liberal

Don Boudria LiberalMinister of State and Leader of the Government in the House of Commons

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. There have been further consultations and I think you would now find that the motion is more acceptable. I move:

That the motion relating to government orders, ways and means proceedings, No. 6 be deemed to have been put and a division thereon demanded and deferred until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, March 25, 2003.

This is pursuant to an all party agreement at the House leaders meeting.

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5:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Does the minister of state have the consent of the House to present the motion?

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5:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

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5:10 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The House has heard the terms of the motion. Does the House give its consent to the motion?

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5:10 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the amendment.

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5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Mark Assad Liberal Gatineau, QC

Mr. Speaker, for the sake of the reality check, as the member was mentioning, I have a question I would like him to answer.

I read somewhere not too long ago that once Iraq is invaded, it will help democratize the region. I have some fear about this for the following reason.

Let us look at the southern doorstep of the United States for over the last 50 years. The Dominican Republic had a dictator. There was a dictator in Haiti, Papa Doc. There was a dictatorship in Guatemala. There was a dictatorship in El Salvador. There was a dictatorship in Nicaragua. All those places had dictatorships that surrounded the southern doorstep of the United States.

If it was not possible to bring democracy there, how are we going to bring democracy to such a turbulent area that surrounds Iraq?

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5:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Leon Benoit Canadian Alliance Lakeland, AB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate receiving that very good question from the member.

I do not know if the member is presenting that question as a way to justify his government's position of complete inaction in Iraq. Perhaps he is.

I would remind the member that his government decided to become involved in Kosovo, without a UN resolution by the way, which is what it is using to justify inaction in the case of Iraq. The government agreed to do that, to throw out the dictator, Milosevic, and to try to allow a democracy to be established. The same thing was done in Afghanistan with the support of the government.

I would like to know why the member supports his government's position in those two countries and does not support that same position in Iraq. It seems to be totally inconsistent.