I now want to rule on the point of order raised on April 3, 2003 by the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, concerning events that took place at the April 2, 2003 meeting of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources. I believe that there is some urgency to this decision since it may have some bearing on the work that the committee intends to take up this week.
I would like to begin by thanking the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot for having raised this matter, as well as the hon. member for Winnipeg Centre, the hon. government House leader, the hon. member for Athabasca and the hon. member for West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast for their interventions. I also want to thank the hon. member for Nickel Belt for rising this morning to address this situation.
The hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot identified two issues relating to the proceedings in the Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development Natural Resources Committee at its meeting of April 2, 2003. First, he claimed that the chair of the committee had permitted the moving of the previous question on a point of order, while another member of the committee had the floor. The hon. member protested that it was contrary to our rules to permit the moving of a motion on a point of order and that, further, the previous question is not admissible in committee.
Secondly, he raised the issue of the use of unparliamentary language by the Chair of the Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Committee.
The hon. member for Winnipeg Centre presented a slightly different version of the events, pointing out that while the chair had in fact ruled the previous question to be inadmissible, he had also invited the committee to challenge his ruling. The ruling was challenged and overturned. The hon. member for Athabasca indicated his agreement with this account of the committee's proceedings.
The hon. government House leader, who was not present at the meeting, referred the House to House of Commons Procedure and Practice , page 647, which describes occasions on which committee chairs were forced to intervene to overrule obstructive tactics in committee. Based on these earlier events, which he characterized as precedents, he claimed that the Chair of the Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources Committee had acted properly. He also stated that the intention of the motion that the committee was studying was to end a filibuster and not to curtail the study of the bill. He concluded by suggesting that the procedural issues raised in this case might be a subject that the Special Committee on the Modernization of the Rules and Procedures of the House of Commons should examine.
The hon. member for West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast offered the opinion that in fact the chair of the committee had not ruled the motion for the previous question out of order but had only drawn the attention of the committee to the fact that it was inadmissible. On that basis, he felt that no grounds existed for a challenge of the chair's ruling because no ruling had been given.
First, I must say that the Chair is somewhat perplexed at the situation before us in that the behaviour complained of occurred in a committee that was meeting in camera. Your Speaker has no way of corroborating the allegations of hon. members because I have no access to the verbatim transcript of the committee. So I am simply taking the word of the hon. members who have addressed these issues. I need hardly remind all hon. members that proceedings in camera are to be held in confidence and ought not to be discussed outside the confines of the meeting.
That said, it is, I think, advisable, to remind the House of our usual practice with respect to procedural irregularities in a committee. Marleau and Montpetit, page 858, states:
If a committee desires that some action be taken against those disrupting its proceedings, it must report the situation to the House.
At page 128, we read:
Speakers have consistently ruled that, except in the most extreme situations, they will only hear questions of privilege arising from committee proceedings upon presentation of a report from the committee which directly deals with the matter and not as a question of privilege raised by an individual member.
With respect to the issue of the use of unparliamentary language, the Chair must say that if the language actually used is as bad as has been stated, then it certainly would not be tolerated in this chamber. That said, I must point out that this is a matter that must be dealt with in the committee. Order and decorum in committee is an internal matter and the judgment of what is or is not acceptable must be made there. I know that the House is aware that the hon. member for Nickel Belt has withdrawn the remarks complained of and has apologized to all members of this House, especially to members of the standing committee, for the language he used in the heat of the moment.
While the Chair appreciates this apology—as, I am sure, do all hon. members—I would, with respect, suggest that it is in the committee that this issue needs to be settled and it is there that the relationship between the chair of the committee and the hon. member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot ought to be repaired.
In the case before us, there has been as yet no report from the committee. As well, the matters raised by the hon. member for St.-Hyacinthe—Bagot have been brought forward as a point of order, rather than a question of privilege. The reluctance of previous Speakers, and of myself on earlier occasions, to intervene in the business of committees is procedurally well founded. At the same time, as the last citation from Marleau and Montpetit points out, it is not an absolute rule but depends on the severity of the situation.
Let us examine the procedural rules at issue here. First, as was indicated by several members, our practice does not permit the moving of the previous question in committee. This is clearly indicated in House of Commons Procedure and Practice at page 456 and at page 786.
We also recognize in our practice that committees are masters of their own proceedings. In the present case, the Speaker has been told that the committee was deliberating on a motion to apportion speaking time during its consideration of a bill referred to it by the House. Deliberations on a motion of this kind are fully within the powers of the committee and have not been questioned.
Marleau and Montpetit at pages 855 and 856 states:
Generally, the length of time to be devoted to a particular topic is a matter for the committee to decide....As there is no limit in committee to the number of times of speaking or the length of speeches, committees may, if they choose, place limits on their own deliberations.
That being said, committees are also expected to adopt any such limits in a regular and procedurally acceptable manner. Speaker Fraser in a ruling given on March 26, 1990, at p. 9758 of Debates said:
—chairmen ought to be mindful of their responsibilities and make their decisions and rulings within the bounds of the fine balance provided by our rules.
—I would urge all chairmen and members of committees to try and strive mightily to ensure that the general rules of this place are followed as far as is sensible and helpful in those committees.
The House has been told that the Chair of the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources ruled a motion for the previous question inadmissible. This, as should be clear from what I have said, was in conformity with our rules and practices.
The Chair’s decision was appealed from and the committee overturned it. Marleau and Montpetit, p. 857 clearly states:
While the chair’s rulings are not subject to debate, they may be appealed to the committee.
Standing Order 117 reads:
The Chair of a standing, special or legislative committee shall maintain order in the committee, deciding all questions of order subject to an appeal to the committee; but disorder in a committee can only be censured by the House, on receiving a report thereof.
This rule may sometimes place individual committee members in a position where they feel they have no recourse against decisions they consider unfair. While I understand such frustration, the Speaker is certainly not in a position to do anything other than uphold the Standing Orders.
It seems from the facts presented to me, that the events in the committee followed our usual rules and practices at each step. Whether the overall chain of events is entirely satisfactory is a question members may wish to consider separately.
I remind hon. members that the same appeal process which is currently provided for in committee at one time applied to rulings of the Speaker as well. It was only in 1965 that the right to appeal Speakers' rulings was removed from the standing orders. I urge hon. members to see the Journals for June 11, 1965 at page 224.
The House has recently agreed to the election of committee chairs by secret ballot, a procedure consistent with the manner in which your Speaker is chosen. This process is intended to permit such decisions to be reached free of any outside influence and to ensure that the committee’s presiding officer has the complete confidence of the membership.
In light of this change, it may perhaps be an appropriate time for the House to consider whether the rule permitting appeals from the chair’s ruling retains its original justification. As the hon. government House leader suggested, this is a matter that the Special Committee on the Modernization and Improvement of the Procedures of the House of Commons may wish to consider during its study of possible improvements to our rules.
Although I understand the positions that hon. members have taken with respect to events in the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources, I do not think that under our current rules they have reached an extreme that would justify intervention by the Speaker. That is not to say that there may not be procedural difficulties in the committee which need to be addressed by those directly concerned.
There is one final point that I would like to clarify with respect to this incident. In his presentation, the hon. government House leader made reference to earlier cases of similar difficulties in committee. I remind the House that, with respect to the events in the Standing Committee on Finance in 1990, the committee did report on the matter to the House and it was referred to the privileges and elections committee for consideration of the procedural difficulties that it presented.
With respect to the proceedings in the Standing Committee on Finance, Speaker Fraser stated (Debates, March 26, 1990, p. 9757):
I would caution members, however, in referring to this as a precedent. What occurred was merely a series of events and decisions made by the majority in a committee. Neither this House nor the Speaker gave the incidents any value whatsoever in procedural terms. One must exercise caution in attaching guiding procedural flags to such incidents and happenings.
Your Speaker is of the same view as Mr. Speaker Fraser on this point. I do not regard the present case to constitute a precedent by which future committee chairs should be guided, any more than the events which took place in 1984 or 1990.
I appreciate the hon. members' indulgence.