Debates of May 15th, 2003

Supply

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with my colleague. It was not my cell phone and I hope his point of order is not coming out of my time.

We owe no apology on our correct decision in Iraq. We owe no apology to the United States about that. We made the correct decision as a sovereign nation, so we should not be joining the NMD system as some kind of makeup effort to the United States. That would be fundamentally wrong. We should join the national missile defence system because it is the correct decision for, and in the national self-interest of Canada. If we refuse to join, that would have profound implications for our future role in Norad.

I want to give the current Minister of Foreign Affairs due credit. He has changed his views somewhat in light of changing circumstances in the world. Three years ago when our committee was engaged in the set of hearings I mentioned, there was a lot more skepticism on the part of the current minister for this at that time.

Since then, there has been September 11, 2001. The world has shown itself to be a much changed and more dangerous place since then. I think the minister's change of opinion on this simply reflects the re-evaluation of the changing circumstances. I give him credit. To do anything less than that would be irresponsible of any parliamentarian, let alone our Minister of Foreign Affairs.

I want to deal with several misconceptions and misinformation that are floating around out there in the public as well as in the House of Commons and indeed in our party, our own caucus. There are different views on this. There is misconception and misinformation.

I would like to tackle the worst example right now, which is that somehow this is star wars two or son of star wars. That is factually incorrect. The people who propound that statement are either being deliberately misleading or they simply have not taken the time to review the facts, because it is factually incorrect to say it is son of star wars.

The fact is this is a land based system. It is based on ground based interceptors. The jargon used is GBIs. The first phase of this multiphase NMD system is that there would be some 20 ground based interceptors put into use to defend North America. It is not son of star wars. To say that is factually wrong. It is a land based system.

The second misconception is that somehow this is an offensive system which would make the world more dangerous. To say that it is an offensive system is factually incorrect. It is a defensive system with a limited land based missile system designed to counter what is an emerging, albeit limited, threat. Specifically, countries like North Korea are working on the development of missiles which could reach this continent. The fact is this is not an offensive missile system; it is a land based defensive system aimed at the protection of North America, which includes Canada by the way. We ought to remember that fact.

There is talk that it would somehow make the world more dangerous. I reject that categorically. When the defence committee held hearings three years ago, there was a very strong indication that the United States was prepared to share this technology with other nations. It is not out to have something exclusively for itself, to tip the balance of power so that it is then freer to go out and attack countries. That is nonsense. To not recognize that is to ignore the important facts.

Frankly, I think there are members speaking to this who do not have all the facts. They should have sat in on some of the hearings our committee held three years ago.

The third misconception is that this is part of an aggressive Bush doctrine. I do not agree with the pre-emptive strike idea of the Bush doctrine necessarily. I think it is potentially very dangerous. However this is not part of a Bush doctrine. NMD was initiated in 1998 under the Clinton Democratic administration. I have been to Washington. I have met with members of Congress from both parties. This initiative has strong bipartisan support. The critics who label it as George Bush Republican warmongering are simply incorrect. It denies the fact that this initiative was started by the Clinton Democratic administration.

The fourth misconception is that Canada cannot afford this. The fact is that when our defence committee was at the Norad headquarters Cheyenne mountain in Colorado, we had a very extensive series of meetings with our own Canadian military people there who help run the Norad headquarters as well as the American people.

The contribution Canada would most likely be asked to make is what is referred to as an asymmetrical contribution. We would likely take on additional duties at Cheyenne mountain in the running of Norad, which would free up American personnel to take on more of the duties of the NMD. There would not be some huge cheque expected from Canada.

There would not be some huge amount of money that we would have to contribute to it. Frankly we know our defence budget could not bear that. I do not think Canadians would support our devoting a huge amount of our defence budget to it. That is not the expectation. Our contribution would be expected more in terms of personnel at Cheyenne mountain in an asymmetrical way.

The next misconception is that the United States is going to do this unilaterally and that Canada should stay out of it. That is wrong. The fact is the United States is going to go ahead with the missile defence system. It has made that very clear both politically and militarily to us as a country for the last several years.

We had witnesses from all sides of the argument, including groups like Ploughshares. Given the choice between a missile defence system under unilateral American control or a missile defence system under Norad control with Canada as a partner, not a single witness, not even the most antagonistic witnesses to this idea said that it would be better to have it under unilateral American control. They all said it would be better to have the missile defence system under the control of Norad where Canada is a partner in that important defence of North America.

The next misconception is that missiles are not a threat and there is no threat to North America from missiles; September 11 proved that when some maniacs hijacked planes and murdered a lot of innocent people. We cannot sell that to the American public and we certainly cannot sell that to the Canadian public.

People understand that there is an array of threats out there. Yes, missiles are a threat. They pose a threat. Of course, there are suitcase bombs and airplanes. There is a whole series of threats. To say that because these threats exist or even if they are perhaps more likely, that one ought not guard against the possibility of a missile attack would be incredibly irresponsible. The United States will not accept that logic and neither should Canada. The potential is there for a missile attack and it has to be dealt with.

Somehow the argument is that this would compromise our sovereignty. I think the minister referred to this as well. Over 60 years ago we formally became a defence partner with the United States in a special bilateral relationship in the protection of North America. It started at a little town called Ogdensburg in upstate New York. It was then formalized in the Norad agreement.

We are defence partners with the United States. Let us be candid, we are the junior partner, but the deputy commander of Norad is always a Canadian. We have a valuable and important role to play. We should continue that.

This serves our national self-interest. It continues our important historic partnership in defence of the continent with the United States. My view is it has strong support from the Canadian people.

We ought to do this not out of any sense of apology for our correct decision on Iraq. We ought to join the missile defence system because it is the right decision for Canadians. I look forward to seeing our participation in the missile defence system in the near future.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, if I understood my colleague correctly, as a scenario, he sees the possibility, without investing huge amounts of money, of giving more responsibilities to NORAD for the protection of airspace, which could free up American personnel to take on more of the duties of NMD.

My question then has to be this. Can we afford to do indirectly what we do not want to do directly? This is the fundamental issue. Would the Americans agree to say, “In exchange for your participation, we will give more responsibilities to NORAD for the protection of airspace, and we will pull back on missile defence to control all of its technology”?

I wonder if this approach is not similar to the one used in the case of Iraq. We told the Americans that we would not go to Iraq, but that we could take over from the Americans in Afghanistan.

I think that we are doing indirectly what we do not want to do directly. Could we have further explanations on this?

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, I think my colleague is really reaching to draw a parallel between Iraq and Norad. Iraq was an attack on a country which we decided, because it did not have UN sanction, we would not participate in. I thought that was the right decision then and today I think it was the right decision as well.

Norad however, is fundamentally different. It is a bilateral defence partnership with the United States and Canada in the defence of North America. It is a defence partnership.

What I said is it was made very clear to us at Cheyenne mountain, and I do not know if my colleague opposite has had the opportunity to be there, that the most practical contribution Canada could make in many ways would be to take up more of the efforts in current Norad operations at Cheyenne mountain, which would free up some key American personnel who would then possibly be shifted over to the missile defence part of it.

We would be fundamentally involved. I repeat that the deputy commander of Norad is, and always is, a Canadian general. The reality is that for our people and for this partnership to continue to function well, since the Americans are definitely going into a national missile defence system, we should be a partner in that effort as well. It is very difficult to separate out the parts of the efforts at Cheyenne mountain that deal with missile defence from the other part of the defence of North America. They are too inextricably linked. It is very important that we remain a key partner in this defence organization.

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to correct the member on one particular aspect of his speech, when he said that we made the right decision. We made no decision in the House of Commons. We did not vote on it. The Prime Minister stood during question period and announced that would be the case. The member should indicate loud and clear what the truth is. The truth is the Prime Minister made the decision. We did not because we had no vote. In fact we did not even have a debate, other than take note debates and that kind of debate is not effective.

Second, I agree that we should be part of this program and particularly be at the table. I do believe that our foreign affairs minister has illustrated in the past that he can be diplomatic and very respectful and present our case in a good manner. I just hope the other members of the Liberal Party have received lessons in diplomacy and respect when they voice their concerns to the United States.

I am just wondering if the member and any of his other caucus members who have had loose lips in the past have had any lessons in that regard.

[Pat O'Brien, Liberal, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I do not consider myself to be part of the loose-lipped gang that unfortunately exists in all parties. I think my colleague in the Alliance Party has had some experience of loose lips in his own caucus. I guess one ought to be a bit careful when one seeks to cast the first stone vis-à-vis loose lips.

My mother was born in the United States. I am proud of the fact that I have American relatives. I am not anti-American.

I say again that we, meaning the Canadian government, made the correct decision in my view in not going into Iraq. With respect to a vote, this does not take place when we go into action; there are no votes. The Prime Minister exercised his authority, and the cabinet, as is traditionally done by governments of all political stripes in this country. But had there been a vote, I am proud to say I would have voted not to go into Iraq.

As for my colleague the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the compliments the member has given to him on his political judgment, those are deserved. The Minister of Foreign Affairs is an astute individual, perhaps one of the best prepared people to take up his post. He is very cognizant of the importance of our relationship with the United States.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased indeed to speak today on this important issue of missile defence.

To me it seems absolutely incredible that this debate has not taken place in the House before now. Over the four or five years that this has been on the front burner and the seven years it has been talked about by our American friends and neighbours, over all that time, I find it incredible that the government has not once brought this issue to the House for debate. That is a shameful record on the part of the government. Members of the House of Commons, who represent the population of Canada, have been completely left out of this debate in the House of Commons. That is an unacceptable way of dealing with such an important issue, an issue which is quite controversial across this country. The government really ought to think about that. Still, I hope the government will soon call for a debate on this issue. The opposition certainly has. I know we will see more debate on this in the time ahead, but I doubt it will come from the government side.

I would like to start by talking about what missile defence is. The hon. member who spoke just previously gave a pretty good background on what it is. He also presented some very interesting and productive ideas on missile defence. I appreciate that. It is good to hear that from the government side, because until now we have not heard that. It is a step in the right direction.

I will start by saying a little bit about what missile defence is not. It is not star wars. Anyone who refers to this missile defence program as star wars, as the NDP will probably do and as many others in the House will probably do, is really presenting the facts in a misleading way. It is in no way star wars as President Reagan presented star wars. It is nothing like that whatsoever.

It does not employ weapons in space, in fact. It calls for a limited ground and sea based system employing six interceptors. The program will start in 2004 whether Canada is involved in it or not. Up to 40 interceptors could be in place by 2005. It is a very high tech system in some ways, but in other ways it is very low tech because in effect it is a large bullet hitting the target that they are trying to shoot down. These interceptors would not have warheads of any kind, again, just a mass to stop the missile coming in. It would destroy the missile simply by the force of impact of one mass hitting another.

This is not a cold war system of any type, but it is a post-September 11 system. This system was being developed four years before September 11. Because of the wall coming down and the cold war ending, the United States could see that a new threat could be forthcoming and that threat could be from an accidental launching from Russia or other former Soviet states or it could be from new rogue states developing the capability. We have seen, of course, that North Korea has come a long way in developing that capability. As a responsible government would, the United States is just putting in place some ability to defend itself against either one of those situations. The purpose of the system is to defend against a small number of incoming missiles launched either by rogue states, terrorists somewhere, or by an accidental launch.

One of the messages that has already been delivered and I am sure will be delivered again throughout today about the concern over Canada becoming involved is that there could be debris from a missile that is shot down, and it certainly could be an intercontinental ballistic missile with an atomic warhead on board. This is certainly a very real possibility. The concern expressed is that the debris may come down on Canada. That is in fact a very real concern, but I would like to ask a question to anyone who is going to bring up this issue. Is it more likely that we can keep the debris away from Canada if we are at the table discussing this, if we are engaged on a day to day basis, and in fact further, if we are involved in the command as we are involved in the command of Norad?

In a situation where we just say no, we are out of it, or in the other situation where we are closely involved and actually become involved in the command structure, in which situation are we more likely to be able to keep debris away from Canada? Clearly it is in the position where we have a voice at the table on an ongoing basis in negotiating this system and in the command structure.

I would argue that it is extremely important that we become involved and we should have become involved at least three or four years ago, trying to look at this from a non-partisan point of view. The government certainly should have become involved at that time. That is when the Canadian Alliance, a responsible political party, the official opposition, took a position that we should go to our American friends and neighbours and say, “This is an interesting idea for several reasons”, and I will get into those reasons in a minute, “and because it is good for Canada, because it is good for our security, we want to sit down and discuss this with you and develop a system”. That is what should have happened three or four years ago but did not. Had we done that, of course, the likelihood of some negative impacts such as debris falling on Canada would be far, far less likely.

I want to talk about why missile defence is important. I want to make it clear that the primary reason that Canada should become involved in this missile defence program is for the security of Canada and for the safety of Canadians. In spite of the fact that I have been bringing this up for years now, how many Canadians or Americans know that we have no capability whatsoever to shoot down an intercontinental ballistic missile? If we have an accidental launch of a nuclear missile from Russia, as an example, and that could happen, although the probability is very low, I am not willing to sacrifice a city like Toronto, New York, Chicago or Edmonton. I am not willing, just because the risk is low, to say let us not bother doing anything about it.

I think a more responsible position is to say that we will work with the U.S. to develop some capability to shoot down an intercontinental ballistic missile, because right now we have no capability. Quite frankly, I think Canadians and Americans hearing that will be shocked. They will ask why we have not been involved in this. That is a question they should be asking the government because the answers have not been good and have not been explained why we have not been involved in it sooner in the way that the Canadian Alliance has recommended.

I want to get into a little bit of background on the relationship between Canada and the United States when it comes to security. Certainly the member of the Liberal Party who spoke just before me did a little of that and I will carry on. He referred to the Ogdensburg agreement of 1940. Since that time in the Canada-U.S. relationship, it has been recognized that the security of North America is indivisible. We cannot possibly set up a separate security system for Canada. It is simply not realistic. We could not afford it and it would not be effective.

Just as in 1940, Canada and the United States are today facing a common external threat. However, unlike World War II, in recent years Canada has not been very effective in advancing its security interests with the United States. In fact in some areas, Canada has not even been effective in retaining a seat at the table. If this is not corrected, the potentially alarming consequences for Canadian security could be quite dramatic and our most crucial trading relationship would be affected as well.

Perhaps the most important aspect of the Canada-U.S. security cooperation in the new era will be in the realm of border or perimeter security and law enforcement cooperation. Notwithstanding some progress on drafting some new agreements on cross-border security, Canada has not been very successful in reassuring the United States that unintended security threats will not emerge from this country, and now I am talking about the broad security arrangements between Canada and the United States.

David Jones, the former political minister and counsellor at the U.S. embassy in Ottawa, recently noted that border security and defence are two of the three main areas of contention in Canada-U.S. relations.

Mr. Jones warned that:

Canada has been offered the choice of assuring us that it is making comparable efforts to prevent terrorism or forcing us--at significant cost to both our societies--to protect against prospective terrorists in Canada... the semi-hysterical Canadian resistance to virtually every U.S. proposal--from sky marshals to tighter refugee screening--leaves the impression that Ottawa thinks it is humouring a batty uncle--

That is a quote from a top-ranking official responsible at the U.S. embassy, saying that in fact the Canadian government has acted as if the presentation of ideas like missile defence are not to be taken seriously. This has to be a real concern.

When we are looking at the security issue, it is not only that missile defence gives us a capability to shoot down intercontinental ballistic missiles, therefore making Canada a safer place, but it is that we have not gotten involved. And if the government holds off on a decision for another year or two or three, then we may not be allowed to become involved in any way, because the United States has made the decision that it will have a system in place by 2004. It has made that decision. It is Canada's choice whether or not to become involved in it, and because we have not become involved until this time we certainly have lost in many ways. I want to talk about how in fact that is the case.

In the area of continental defence, the United States is moving ahead with key military planning without any meaningful Canadian input. For several years, the United States has privately been urging the Canadian government to support the creation of an effective ballistic missile defence system for North America. It is not, as the Prime Minister says, that the United States has never yet asked us to be part of it. Only someone who is blind or not paying attention in any way and is not listening to what is going on could possibly realistically make a statement like that. This proposal has been on the table for several years.

In fact, General George Macdonald warned the House of Commons standing committee on defence, and I believe it was three years ago now if memory serves me well, that if Canada did not participate “it would represent the initial stages of the atrophying of Norad”, the North American aerospace defense command. He further warned that his own position as deputy commander, the second in command at Norad at the time, the top Canadian at Norad, likely would become “non-viable” if Canada did not participate.

The former member talked about going to Cheyenne mountain. I was with a small group of Canadian members of Parliament, I believe there were four of us, who went to Cheyenne mountain. We had two days with General Penney and a good part of a day with General Eberhart, who is the top American in charge, the top commander at Norad and also at Northcom. Both of those military leaders made it very clear that the United States really would appreciate participation by Canada. To me it is an offer that is extremely generous; It could go ahead on its own.

In practical terms it probably would not make a lot of difference to the Americans, except that it is the North American continent they are defending and they do not want to intrude upon Canadian sovereignty. If they go ahead with a system to protect the North American continent, which of course includes Canada, without Canadian participation, they are concerned that it would look to the world like they are intruding on Canadian sovereignty.

The argument in fact could be made that this is happening to some extent. When the issue of sovereignty is discussed in relation to this issue, Canadian sovereignty in fact has been hurt already by the tardiness of the government in making a decision on this issue. Had the government said three years ago that it wanted to become involved in this, to sit down and have in-depth discussions with the Americans and decide what the program would be, and the Americans are certainly open to that, and that it wanted to be involved in the command structure under Norad, and the Americans have offered that, had the government done that, it would have been a very positive move in terms of protecting Canadian sovereignty. Because the government has not acted in that fashion, Canadian sovereignty has come under attack. Canadian sovereignty has been hurt by that, which is extremely unfortunate.

The Canadian Alliance document “The New North--Strong and Free” was released a couple of weeks ago. The subtitle of that document is “Protecting Canadian Sovereignty and Contributing to Global Stability”. It is the Canadian Alliance white paper on defence.

The government will not take action on defence issues. The foreign affairs department will not take action on laying out a new defence policy for our country, so the Canadian Alliance has done it as official opposition. It released this document a couple of weeks ago. In this document our very first recommendation reads as follows:

Canada should support maintaining NORAD as a viable defence organization to counter threats in North America, including those emanating from rogue states possibly equipped with ballistic missiles and weapons of mass destruction. NORAD should be given the command responsibility for the envisaged system for defending against ballistic missiles.

That is our very first recommendation of 33 and it is no accident. This issue has been in the forefront with the Canadian Alliance for some time. We took a position on it about three years ago within our caucus and within our party. Because the government has not, the impacts are quite substantial.

First is the impact in the area of security. I have talked about the importance in the area of security, of giving us some ability to shoot down intercontinental ballistic missiles.

The second is hanging on to Norad. We have to be involved. Already we may not have an option but we will see. I still believe if the government were to make a decision quite quickly, we could still protect our involvement in Norad. Norad gives the whole North American continent protection against external threats, such as bombers and things like that. However since September 11, it also provides protection against internal threats. That capability which Norad provides could well be lost if an agreement is not renewed.

Top Americans, including Ambassador Cellucci and Canadian generals, like General Macdonald, have said that there is a very real threat to Norad if Canada does not become involved very quickly in missile defence. That was also said three years ago. We are really at the point now where we have to make a decision very quickly. There are other areas that have to be considered and these too are areas of serious consideration.

We will members of the NDP say that when we talk about issues like missile defence, we should not talk about the economy. I would think it would be irresponsible not to talk about the economy in conjunction with this missile defence issue from two points of view.

The first is from the Canada-U.S. relationship. We know how it has suffered under this government due to some extremely harmful statements made, the attack on our American friends and neighbours. Becoming involved could help undo some of that harm so that we are more likely to keep goods flowing freely across the borders.

The other is the economic impact from high tech industry becoming involved in developing this product. Already Canadians are somewhat involved but there is a concern that involvement may disappear completely if Canada does not make a decision very quickly. I will quote from an article by Simon Tuck in the May 12 Globe and Mail . He states:

Ottawa's stated schedule for deciding whether to participate in the United States' controversial national missile defence system will be too late for Canadian companies to gain maximum benefit, defence industry officials say. Ron Kane, vice-president of policy and research at the Aerospace Industries Association of Canada, says Ottawa must decide whether or not to participate in missile defence by the end of July, if Canadian defence companies are to take full advantage. “If we don't commit over the next couple of months, we'll be shut out.

The sense of urgency that is felt by the industry is certainly not shared by the government. That is extremely unfortunate. In fact we heard the Prime Minister say just last Wednesday that negotiations with the United States about the missile defence system could begin soon, but a final decision could still be months away. The defence minister has said that there is plenty of time.

There are members of the New Democratic Party or the governing party who say that the economy is not important. I should remind them that a third of the goods produced in this country are exported to the United States. We depend on the United States for jobs. If we are to have members from the New Democratic Party or the governing party stand up and say that the economy is not important, then I challenge them to take two of their friends out to a street corner and say, “There are three of us here. Our relationship with the United States is not important, so one of us loses our job. Which one is it going to be?”

That is reality. One-third of the jobs in Canada depend on the export of goods to the United States, so the economy is important. This is primarily a security issue. We should look at it from a security point of view but if we ignore the economy, we are doing it at the peril of Canadians and jobs in this country.

There is a lot to say on this issue. I will depend on questions to bring out some other points.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened intently to my colleague's speech. I have to give him credit for having raised an important issue, that being debris. However, he was certainly not serious when he said that he believed that, if we were to negotiate with the Americans, we could convince them not to send an antiballistic missile over Canadian territory towards the eastern American seaboard. It would inevitably have to go over Canadian territory because the interceptor would leave from Alaska.

I would like to know if the member thinks that the scenario I raised earlier is plausible. I was saying that the Americans could try to convince Canada to put a series of interceptors in Canada's far north so that the interception would happen over the polar ice cap. Thus, the Americans could tell Canadians, “This is the best way for you not to have debris on your territory, because otherwise, there will be”.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I touched on the member's question in my presentation, the issue of debris falling on the country from missiles being shot down over it.

The hon. member is a member of the defence committee and I think he would know well from debate over the years that if we are involved in the negotiations, we have a lot better chance of ending up with a solution that is more beneficial to Canada.

The United States has said that it will go ahead with this program no matter what. Burying our heads in the sand, saying that we will not touch it and that we will allow all the planning to be left in the hands of the Americans, I would suggest is not wise. That is the position the government is taking.

The member has a point. If he is saying because we have delayed participation for at least three or four years beyond what we should have, that we have been shut out and that the options in terms of interceptor placement and the likelihood of debris coming down on Canada are limited, then he is right. However I do not think that is his point. His point was we should not be involved at all, and I believe that is wrong headed completely.

Let us be involved. Let us have Canadian input. Let us have Canada play a meaningful role in command through the Norad umbrella.

[Aileen Carroll, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, as with the earlier debates, I listened very carefully to the debate of my hon. colleague. I agree with him that the current American concept of national missile defence, or now ballistic missile defence, is not star wars. It has changed integrally from the original concept under President Reagan. It is not a system that will weaponize space. I am very happy that he agrees with us in the opposition to the weaponization of space.

However I am a little disappointed. As a parliamentarian for six years, I have been very open in promoting the enhancement of the role of each of us as parliamentarians and our ability to impact. One of the most important ways we do that is by using our standing committees as a vehicle. Therefore, I was somewhat disappointed to hear him denigrate the standing committees because the members did hear from the former head of the defence committee who talked about how long they had discussed it.

You, hon. member are a member. My committee, foreign affairs, has done this. I am disappointed you do not think that is a worthwhile participation.

[Réginald Bélair, Liberal, Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole]

I am sorry to interrupt. Please address your comments to the Chair and not directly to any other member.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, there were a couple of questions in that.

First, on the effectiveness of committees. Committees really have very little impact on what happens in this place. The work actually done has almost no impact on what the government does. From that point of view, committees are virtually useless, quite frankly.

From the point of view of learning about an area, committees can be very helpful. That is the thing. Through my work on the defence committee for years and on other committees, as the immigration critic on the immigration committee and as the agriculture critic on the agriculture committee, I learned an awful lot about those areas. There is that benefit.

In terms of committees being enough that is nonsense. First, reports from committees are ignored by the government on a routine basis. We can point to a handful of committees that have had any impact that would really be noticeable at all.

If we are to limit debate to those committees, the few people involved will come to understand the issue better, but there will be no impact on government. What is the point?

If there is a debate in the House, then all members of can be involved. Maybe there will be some impact on government. Rarely is there, but on occasion there may be.

We have the leadership of the current Prime Minister. Certainly the member knows that it is virtually an elected dictatorship in the way the House operates. Even within her caucus, she knows that it is a virtual dictatorship, an elected dictatorship. That is what separates us from others in the function. I have heard many Liberal MPs say the same thing and certainly many from opposition parties.

When we look at the process, a committee is not enough. It has to take place in the House as well.

[Darrel Stinson, Canadian Alliance, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the hon. member's speech. I could not agree with him more.

If we go back in history and read some of the articles, the same concerns, which I am hearing today, were also raised with regard to Norad. Yet Norad has worked as a seamless partnership between Americans and Canadians for years now with no major problems at all.

The hon. member mentioned there had been questions raised in regard to Canadian sovereignty over this. I have a great problem with that. I think if the Americans had not been there, we would have probably already lost what we like to call Canadian sovereignty. We depend upon the Americans due to the depletion of our forces to protect our borders now, from illegal immigration, a possible invasion through to threats from all countries. We depend more and more upon our neighbours to the south to protect us.

I remember in when I was growing up we were very proud of our forces. We were proud of what we stood for in Canada with regard to fighting for freedom in the world.

Every where I go one of the greatest concerns I hear is why are we not supporting our forces more. Why are we not more involved in these situations? Why are we always taking a back seat? Basically, in my opinion we have turned our own defence system in Canada into a disgrace.

I would appreciate the opinion of the hon. member on this. We really cannot offer too much to the Americans to help with this program, other than our willingness to become involved. Does the hon. member not think it has been a disgrace of the government and previous governments to allow our forces to be depleted to the extent that they have, where we have to depend on other countries?

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member brings forward an important point. Let us look at Canadian sovereignty, which is a key component. If the government were to give the military the resources it needs to be the type of military Canada needs, which means more people in the military and better equipment, then we could have units that would be extremely effective in operating with our allies, including the United States.

If we want to protect Canadian sovereignty we must keep the military's ability to actually contribute in a meaningful fashion with our NATO and American allies. If we do that, we strengthen sovereignty. By allowing the military to deteriorate the way the government has, we have lost some of our ability to control, which means we have lost some of our sovereignty.

The member has brought forward a very real concern. Becoming involved in missile defence would certainly allow Norad to go on and would expand the protection we get from Norad. Because we would have a place in the command structure, second in command but a prominent place, and because we would be involved in all of the discussions that take place, that would strengthen our sovereignty.

There is no better example of this impact than at Norad headquarters at Cheyenne mountain. We were told by the top Canadian there and by General Eberhart, the top American commander at Norad, that Canada has been excluded more and more from Norad. Canadians are even being excluded more at the headquarters at Cheyenne mountain. We are not involved because we have not signed on to the missile defence system. That truly is a threat to sovereignty. Rebuilding our military is certainly an important part of stopping that slide in our ability to control our own destiny.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member of the NDP for shifting his time. He will be speaking after me. I will be splitting my time with my colleague from Nova Scotia.

It is an honour and a privilege to rise today on an issue of such importance to the peace and security of our country.

Never before have the people of Canada and the nations of the world been called to duty as they were in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks on the U.S.A. On that day we were reminded in the most vivid and vicious manner that our ocean borders would not protect us from the evils of the world.

I have long believed that Canada's best interests can only be served if we become fully engaged in the development, deployment and maintenance of the missile defence system. Unfortunately, at this time we have not come to a full decision within our caucus. However if the defence committee had gone to Norad to meet with our friends in the U.S.A. we would have been able to present a full report to Parliament and then could have had a debate on it.

I would now like to take the time to highlight the main reasons that our participation, as far as I am concerned as a member of Parliament, is essential to our national security.

For more than two generations, Canada and the U.S. have maintained a defensive line that is the envy of the world. Our mutual defence of the North American continent through the North American Aerospace Defence Command has ensured the protection of our country since the dawn of the cold war. Norad is a unique military partnership built on mutual interest and mutual trust. Both its missions and its motto can be summed up in three words: deter, detect, defend.

The missile defence system is therefore the natural extension and evolution of Norad and to that end there is little doubt that the U.S. will want to take full advantage of the Norad infrastructure and its technology as the basis for a missile defence system. Norad has the best equipment and personnel in the world in terms of long range satellite and radar tracking.

A key strength of the Norad partnership is the degree of integration between our two armed forces. Canadian and American military personnel work hand in hand and side by side at installations in both countries.

If a missile defence system were to be assigned to Norad and Canadians were not full participants, all our Canadian personnel at Norad would be sent home. They would not be able to assist with the maintenance of the missile defence system. They would not be able to help monitor for incoming ballistic missile threats. They would not be able to continue in the important commanding roles they play. To put it another way, if Canada does not participate in missile defence, Norad is as good as dead.

I doubt that even the most ardent skeptics of missile defence would want us to end our Norad partnership with the U.S. That is because we continue to live in a very dangerous world, a world in which there are some who wish the U.S. and Canada would fall apart.

We have learned that rogue elements in countries from the Far East to the Middle East are trying to develop weapons of mass destruction. We have seen tests conducted on long range ballistic missiles. We know that some of the weaponry of the former Soviet Union is unaccounted for and even possibly for sale on the black market.

No matter how unlikely a missile strike might seem to be in the post-cold war world, we simply cannot take the risk of ruling out that possibility.

There are some who will dismiss the warnings we have received from world events and the important lessons of history. We must be prepared and we must not turn our backs on our friends and allies in the U.S.A.

Our performance with respect to Canada's involvement in the war on terrorism and the war with Iraq are not worthy of the great tradition of diplomacy established by former Prime Ministers Sir Robert Borden and Lester B. Pearson.

Our defence relationship with the Americans is at a crossroads. We can choose to work with them to rid the world of the threat of terrorism, as have the Australians, the British and countless others, or we can walk away from our international obligations without a care or concern.

The first mission of the Canadian Forces is the protection of our borders but at the present time, if Canada were the target of a missile attack, there is nothing we could do to defend ourselves and all Canadians.

If the U.S. were attacked, its only recourse would be to strike back. That is why I am reminded of the words of former U.S. President Ronald Reagan, who asked, “Given the choice, shouldn't we seek to save lives rather than avenge them?” I could not agree more.

A missile defence system, if effective, would allow North America to defend itself from an unprovoked missile attack. Ongoing tests have shown that the science and technology needed to make an effective system are now close at hand. Intelligence reports have shown that the threat of an attack is still a risk we must consider.

Common sense tells us that we must support our friends and our allies and that we should be part and parcel of the missile defence project that the U.S. is looking at.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the unanimous consent of the House to make the motion before us votable so it can be voted on tonight?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Does the member for Saint-Jean have the unanimous consent of the House to move the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

There is no consent.

The member for Cumberland—Colchester has the floor.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to follow the remarks by the hon. member for Saint John. She has been very involved in this debate from the very beginning. She is very involved in the committee. Like her, I would like to state the position of our party but it is not possible because we do not know anything about what is being proposed.

We are inclined to support missile defence but we have never been told any details about the proposal. How will it involve Canada? Who is the threat? Who are we saying is going to threaten our country or the United States? We should know these things if we are going to build a defence system and pass judgment on it. We should have information available to us about who our missile defence system would be aimed at. Will it be based on land? Will it all be land? Will it be partly sea? Will it be partly space?

We do not know whether it could be nuclear or not nuclear or whether it could be adapted to nuclear. There are many questions that have a huge impact on our decision to support this or not. We want to support it but we need the information. It is incumbent on the government to give Parliament that information but it is not giving us any.

Hopefully the government has the information but if it does not I do not know how it will decide either. However when we are being asked to make a decision on such an important issue, which could affect every aspect of our country, our security and certainly life and death in the event of an attack, we must know the details of what we are getting into.

Who will manufacture these weapons? Will Canada get a benefit from the technology? We do not know that. Who is developing the specs and do we have those available? We do not know. We are being asked to pass judgment on this but we do not even know the specifications.

Where will the incoming missiles be intercepted? Will they be intercepted over Canadian soil, over the sea or where? What is the plan? What is the proposal? Will Canadian bases be asked to have missiles on them? We do not know that and we should have that information. There must be a plan or proposal somewhere. Hopefully the government has it. If it is discussing these issues it must have this information, otherwise I do not know how it could have an intelligent discussion or bring the question to Parliament and ask us to make an intelligent decision.

Is there any possibility these weapons could be used defensively? We have to know these things. What is the timeline for implementation? We do not know that. We do not know how fast this will go. We do not know whether it will be part of Norad or outside of Norad, or how that system will work.

Has Mexico agreed to participate, and what is its thoughts on this? We should hear from Mexico, as well as the United States, if we are going to have a continental defence system.

What is the proposed budget for this? What will it cost the Canadian taxpayers? Is there even an estimate of what it will cost? What is the benefit? Is there an estimate of the benefits to Canadian industry? Will we be involved in the technology and development of this high tech system? How much will come to Canada, if any?

Have we been consulted? We do not even know if the government has been consulted. The Prime Minister said in the House that he does not know anything about the plan yet he is having meetings with his cabinet to decide whether to participate. What is the consultation process? If we are to be a partner in this we should be consulted and not have the plan imposed on us. I do not know if we have been consulted but it sounds like Canada has not really been consulted and brought into the loop about all these questions I am asking. The government, apparently, is holding cabinet meetings to decide whether it will participate. How can these issues be discussed if we do not have these questions answered?

What departments in Canada would be involved? A missile defence system could involve the Department of Health, the Department of Industry, the Department of National Defence, CSIS, the RCMP and the Solicitor General. Will all these departments be keenly involved or will it just be the defence department? All these things are really important.

In my view our participation in this is dependent on the details of the plan. We are inclined to support it in principle but all we know about it is three words: missile defence system. There is a proposal for that but to ask us if we will participate in the missile defence system without any details is difficult to pass judgment. It is irresponsible to make a decision based on that minimum of information.

We in Canada must protect our interests. We must maintain our involvement with Norad. We must play a key role in Norad and stay in Norad. Hopefully this system will be part of that but we should enhance our participation in Norad and try to upgrade it.

We have to work on our relationship with the United States which has seen some rough waters lately. A great way to start on that would be to work as partners with the United States on the development of the missile defence system if we are expected to participate in the system. That could also go a long way to re-establishing the good relationship we have had with the United States for decades.

We must have access to the information on what this plan means before we can be asked to support it wholeheartedly. We hardly know anything about this plan and yet it is critical to our future, to our defence and to the safety of our country.

It is incumbent on the Prime Minister, the Minister of National Defence and any other minister who is involved to share with Parliament everything they know about this issue. Where will it be based? Where will it intercept missiles? What will it cost? What will the benefits be to Canada? We know nothing about this. All we are being asked to do is to stand up and support a missile defence system. We only know those three words and that is not enough.

[Aileen Carroll, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin with the member's last comment. He said that the government has asked him to support this. Just to clarify the record, we have not asked him to do that. What he should say is that an opportunity has been presented today, through the opposition day motion, to discuss this issue and engage in debate.

Insofar as his view that cabinet will decide to participate or not, he has failed, unfortunately, to listen to what the minister said today and to what the Prime Minister has been saying every day in question period. What cabinet and caucus is considering is whether we should engage the Americans in conversation and negotiations so we will be able to receive the details that the hon. member feels are necessary prior to making a final decision.

I ask the hon. member to join with me and other members in listening to one another rather than coming in with a script that takes no cognizance of what has already been said.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I love it. The hon. member stands up and says that they are discussing this in cabinet and in caucus and that they will be making a decision. What about Parliament? That is exactly my point. We know nothing.

She said a minute ago “caucus and cabinet”. What happened to Parliament? Why is Parliament not involved in this? She said that we have not been asked to support it. That is because the government has not brought it to Parliament. She said herself that they were discussing it in caucus and in cabinet. This is something for the entire country to discuss. The government does not have members of Parliament in every riding in the country. This is Parliament. This is where it should be discussed, and that is exactly my point. We are in the dark and the government does not want to reveal any information about it. It just wants us to support it.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in a similar vein, I would ask my colleague what he thinks of the response given by the Prime Minister earlier this week regarding the need to debate and vote on this issue. His response was that we have allotted days to do that. My colleague, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, just confirmed that. All the decision-making is done by the Liberal Party, and there is absolutely no involvement in the process by members on this side of the House.

Does the member think that the Prime Minister, the government and Liberal members are right in saying that they are giving us the opportunity to debate issues when the Bloc Quebecois is being forced to use its allotted day today so this particular issue can at least be debated? I just asked for the unanimous consent of the House to make this motion votable because not only is it important to debate it, but it is also important to vote on it. But the Liberal Party just denied us the right to vote.

Does the member think that the government is on the right track by keeping Parliament in the dark as to what is happening in these negotiations?

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, those are excellent points and I am glad the member raised them.

The parliamentary secretary said that we were not asked to make a decision on this but that is not true. The Prime Minister stood in the House and said that this could be debated on an opposition day and then we could decide whether or not to support it. We are doing what the Prime Minister told us to do. We are debating it. He challenged us to debate this on an opposition day and that is exactly what we are doing today.The government cannot say that we have not been asked to participate in it because we have been asked to participate.

The Bloc has asked for unanimous support to make this motion votable. Why would the government turn that down? Why would it not let Parliament vote on this motion? What is it scared of? Is it scared that some of its members would not support it and it would fail?

[Aileen Carroll, Liberal, Barrie—Simcoe—Bradford, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad the hon. member has acknowledged that we are debating this today and that it is not simply a matter, as I tried to elucidate, that it is not just the caucus and the cabinet.

The hon. member and I are members of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade. We have had ongoing discussions, some of which pre-date him. We had it as a recommendation in our report which is here on my desk. We have had a reply from the government.

Once again I am dismayed at the way in which hon. members of the opposition from a variety of parties denigrate the role of the standing committees.