House of Commons Hansard #104 of the 37th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was budget.

Topics

Question No. 194Routine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

Is that agreed?

Question No. 194Routine Proceedings

12:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-28, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 18, 2003, be read the third time and passed.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, I want to say a few words in the debate before the House today on the bill to implement the budget. Of course the budget came down a couple of months ago and now we have the bill to implement the budget. It gives parliamentarians a chance to raise concerns about the budget before us today.

I want to highlight a number of issues that I think are important. What we have now in the country is a budget that has a surplus and every year the Minister of Finance automatically puts the surplus at March 31, the end of the fiscal year, to the national debt.

I believed for a long time and still believe that it is important to pay down our national debt. Let me say that in coming from Saskatchewan and representing the New Democratic Party, I know that it has been a long legacy of the NDP in Saskatchewan to have a government that is fiscally responsible, quite the opposite of what we see from the right wing Conservative-Alliance-Reform types, where in Saskatchewan under Grant Devine, a Conservative premier, they ran up a huge deficit and a huge debt which really made things very difficult for the people of the province.

Having said that, I also have a private member's motion before the House that would allow Parliament to have flexibility as to where the surplus would be spent. I have a private member's bill that would set up what is called a fiscal stabilization fund. We have this in Saskatchewan and in some of the other provinces as well. The surplus would go into the fiscal stabilization fund and Parliament itself would decide where the surplus would go; it would not automatically go to the national debt. We might put part of it on the debt, part of it into program spending and part of it on tax cuts or whatever the priorities of Parliament or the government of the day would be.

Today we do not have that option. Under our laws in the federal House of Commons, it is automatic that every single penny of the national surplus goes automatically to the national debt.

As I recall, a couple of years ago the surplus was around $17 billion. It went automatically to the national debt. I think that if we had properly reflected the priorities of the Canadian people the majority of that $17 billion would not have gone to the national debt. The majority of that $17 billion would have gone into program spending, particularly in health care in Canada.

We have in the country now a real crisis in terms of the funding of health care by the federal government. The federal government on a cash transfer basis transfers only about 14% of the cost of health care to the provinces. That is on a cash basis. The other 86% of the cost is paid for by the provinces. When medicare first came into operation in this country and became a reality, it was cost shared on a fifty-fifty basis by the federal government and the provinces. The federal government put up 50% of the cost and the provinces put 50% of the cost. Today it is 86% from the provinces and about 14% from the federal government.

The problem is that when we have a huge surplus that could be going in large part to health care or many other priorities it is going instead entirely to the national debt. I think that is one change that should be made. A chance to raise that comes today when we are speaking about how budgets are implemented. One of the problems we have is that we do not have any flexibility. Parliament does not have any flexibility at all, because once we hit March 31, the national debt goes down by whatever the surplus is.

I also want to raise a couple of other issues that I think are very important in terms of implementing the budget. We have in our country a very large social deficit. I am talking about health care. The Romanow report has identified a deficit in terms of federal funding on health care and where that money should be going.

What we need is a transfer of several billion dollars extra per year to the provinces to make sure we have national health care that is accessible to each and every Canadian. I do not want to see the day in Canada when we have private health care competing with the public sector. The Canadian people want a very strong public health care system from one coast to the other. It has to be well funded. There has to be equal accessibility for all Canadians no matter what province they live in, no matter what part of the country they happen to come from. That is why the federal government has to be the institution, the government in the country, that provides around 50% of the funding eventually to make sure there is equality of access, equality of service and equality of treatment for each and every Canadian.

We could get that if we had more of the federal surplus and more federal government priorities going to health care in Canada. I believe that is very important. It is something I would certainly like to see.

In terms of the social deficit, for a long time the Liberal Party has promised a national child care program. Again we do not have any action in terms of national child care in Canada. That is another priority in terms of spending that the federal government should be looking at very seriously. If more money were put into child care and health in this country it would also stimulate the economy and create jobs, which in turn would create more economic activity, and more money would come back to the coffers of the federal government, the provinces and municipalities. It would be a win-win situation for the Canadian people.

The other thing I want to mention very briefly in terms of spending is that there is a huge infrastructure deficit in Canada. I think it was the mayor of Winnipeg who pointed out recently that this is one of the great shortfalls of the budget before the House. He was talking about the $57 billion infrastructure deficit in Canada. That is $57 billion and in the budget only a few million dollars were put into the infrastructure of Canada. These funds, if we had an adequately funded infrastructure program, are needed right across the country for cleaning up our water supply, for municipal sewer and water projects, for roads, for bridges and for many other projects in my city of Regina or in any other city or town across the country.

I think the need in Regina in terms of infrastructure, as well as for some small towns in my riding, is in terms of the safe treatment of water facilities. In my riding, for example, there are 12 different Indian reserves and first nations bands and some of them need extra help in terms of safe water.

These are some of the areas that we have to put more money into. Again that should have happened in the budget that is before the House. That is why I vote non-confidence in that federal budget and vote against it.

In addition to infrastructure, health and national day care, we need more federal money transferred into education. Education in Canada is a jurisdiction shared by the provinces and the federal government, but the federal government has a responsibility to provide more money and more funding to post-secondary education so that everyone, again regardless of where one lives, has equal access to education. That is not the case today. There are many universities in many provinces where the tuition fees are much too high for the average Canadian family to send their children to university. Without universal accessibility to higher education, we are creating a two tier system for Canadians in terms of financial discrimination. Part of that solution would be if the federal government were to transfer more money for post-secondary education.

The other area is agriculture. We have a farm crisis. Farmers are underfunded in terms of cash. We are fighting the American farm bill. We are fighting against the European farm program. In fact, these programs in Europe and the United States are so massively funded that many Canadian farmers are going under because of them. I know that our treasury cannot compete fully against the treasury of Brussels or the treasury of Washington. Some of these subsidies are massive.

I do not have all the information with me today, but when a Canadian farmer in Saskatchewan or Manitoba sells grain, only about 10¢ on the dollar for the grain that is sold comes from the federal government. If that farmer were in Montana or North Dakota, instead of 10¢ on the dollar I think it would be 50¢ or 60¢ on the dollar coming in a subsidy from Washington. We have this tremendous discrepancy between what the American farmer receives from Washington and what the Canadian farmer receives from Ottawa.

If we had a national farm program that had some reflection of the cost of living and the cost of production built into it, we would have a stronger farm economy. If the stronger farm economy is there, then the farmers are better off, the small towns are better off, the cities are better off and all of Canada is better off.

These are some of the priorities that I think the federal government should take a look at in terms of its budgeting process. Some may say that I am talking about spend, spend, spend, but I am really talking about investing, investing, investing in very key social and economic sectors of our economy. At the same time, we have to bring down the national debt. We can bring down the national debt by putting a smaller amount toward the national debt. I am also talking about budgeting in the reality of having a balanced budget. I do not want to go back into debt and have deficits in this country. We do not need that, but with a smaller amount going to the national debt every year we would have more money to invest in important social programs and agriculture.

The other way of getting more money for the social deficit, first nations people, agriculture, social housing and all the programs we need is by investing more money in these areas. Through it we would stimulate the economy. We would create more economic activity and more money would come back to the federal government in terms of national revenue through the provinces or municipalities. Part of it pays for itself just by the fact that we would be investing money in areas of need. That stimulates the economy and creates jobs.

As well, I do believe that the $100 billion tax cut announced by the federal government on the eve of the election in 2000 was a tax cut that went too far in terms of bringing down taxes too rapidly for wealthy Canadians. Part of that $100 billion over five years could have been spent more wisely in terms of putting money into education, health care and other important needs in the country.

These are things that are important. When I am in my riding and talking to people, the most important issue is not cutting taxes for a wealthy millionaire. The most important issues are making sure that we have a very strong health care system, a good education system and affordable housing for each and every Canadian.

I want to also mention that the budget did make some changes in terms of the airline industry. A while back, in response to security issues after 9/11, the federal government brought in a security tax of $12 for a one-way domestic flight in Canada, or $24 return. If we look at the revenues the security tax brings in, we find it brings in much more revenue than is needed for enhanced or additional security at any airport in the country; in fact it brings in two, three, four and five times as much or more at many airports in Canada.

What happened after a great deal of protest by the Canadian people, by passengers of airlines and by members of Parliament, is that the budget cut the airport security fee in half, from $24 to $12 on domestic flights. My point is that at $12 for a return flight, it is still higher than what we see in the United States and many other countries. It is becoming a way for the federal government to raise money by a special user fee for people who fly in Canada.

Flying has become more expensive. In fact, the Nav Canada charges are going up again with another fee increase of 6.9%. We have airlines in trouble, such as Air Canada. We get hit with the airport security tax, a special fuel tax, Nav Canada tax, and the goods and services tax, so the price of the ticket keeps going up and that makes it more difficult for people. That again is an issue in terms of keeping a national airline. We have to do what we can to make sure that Air Canada remains solvent. I believe that we should not have privatized Air Canada in the first place. I think the federal government now should look at taking a huge equity share or part of Air Canada to make sure we preserve a national airline.

These are some of the issues that are really important.

I would like to mention something else. A few days ago, I read some statistics in the newspapers about the income of Canadians. There is now a great gap between the rich and poor in Canada, and it is more serious now than 5, 10 or 20 years ago. If I remember correctly, there has been a 12% or 13% increase for the richest people in Canada over the past 10 years, but the poorest have stayed at about the same level of income as 10 years ago, with perhaps a 2% or 3% increase.

We should do more as a nation and as a parliament. There must be more equality between the rich and the poor. I know that the Canadian Alliance has done a lot of lobbying in order to get tax cuts for the richest people in our country, for our country's biggest corporations. The Canadian Alliance's lobbying convinced the former finance minister to provide big tax cuts for the wealthy.

There have been tax cuts for the wealthy and big corporations, but the poor have had the opposite treatment. I represent a riding where there are many poor people. According to Statistics Canada, my riding is the second or third poorest in Saskatchewan.

A big tax cut, where wealthy people get thousands of dollars less on their taxes, does not do very much for a poor person living in north central Regina, or a poor person living in a first nation band, or some poor person living in a small village, be it in Saskatchewan, Quebec or anywhere else in the country.

The time has come that we turn our attention to the issues of poverty. I could not help but notice an article in the Hill Times on a survey done a while ago. It talked about the sexiest MP, and I am not talking about the minister responsible for Canada Post or my good friend from Brandon—Souris, even though he is very high on the list. I am talking about another question that was asked. What is the area that has been most overlooked by parliamentarians? It turned out to be child poverty and kids living in poverty.

It is a real crime that over the last decade when the economy started to improve, after about 10 years of Conservative rule when the economy was going downhill, that the issue of child poverty and poverty in general was not addressed by Parliament. That is a real challenge.

It is a real challenge for Canada's Parliament to intervene with regard to poverty, not just child poverty, but poverty affecting all Canadians in this country.

Those are some of the issues that are really important.

We have a great country. We have tremendous potential. We have wonderful resources. We can produce the most food of any country in the world and we have a small population, a population that is well trained and well skilled. More money should be put into training, education, research and development to become better skilled. With these resources, we can be second to none in the years that lie ahead.

It is important, as we go ahead and make progress and develop economically, that we ensure it benefits all Canadians, not just those who are in the top 20%, but all Canadians no matter where we live.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:35 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle. Although we sometimes disagree, I think that our assessment of this budget is much the same.

I have two questions for him. The first concerns the consultation process launched by the Minister of Finance regarding mechanisms for setting employment insurance premium rates. We know that $45 billion has been misappropriated for something other than employment insurance.

Does the hon. member have faith in this consultation process announced in the February 18 budget and implemented by the Minister of Finance? Does he think that the federal government should repay the $45 billion to the unemployed and contributors, in other words, to the workers and the employers? That was my first question.

My second question concerns the infrastructure expenditures announced in the budget. As the hon. member is aware, the Minister of Finance announced $1 billion, which seems like a lot, but over a 10-year period. This means barely $100 million per year for infrastructure that, in most cases, is in terrible shape.

Quebec, for example, would get $25 million per year. With 25 kilometres of roads, our needs are much greater than that. This would not be a lot for Saskatchewan either. I would like his comments on this ridiculous amount of one billion over 10 years announced by the Minister of Finance.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, I will start with the employment insurance fund. There is now a surplus of $47 billion in this fund. This is Canadian workers' money. It is their money, and the government has used it to eliminate the Canadian deficit. This is unfair, because this money is supposed to go to Canadian workers.

Second, there is the infrastructure issue in Canada. According to the mayor of Winnipeg, there is now a deficit of some $57 billion in the infrastructure of our country. If I remember correctly, the Minister of Finance has announced approximately $100 billion over 10 years.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:35 p.m.

An hon. member

It is $1 billion.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

I am sorry, it is indeed $1 billion over 10 years. So it is $100 million a year. This is not enough at all to solve the Canadian problem. There is $1 billion over 10 years, but the Canadian deficit is at $57 billion. There is a big difference between the two.

If there were investments in the infrastructure in Canada, this would also be a stimulus for the Canadian economy. This would be good for job creation and for better equality in our country.

We have great needs in my province of Saskatchewan, in Regina, Saskatoon, in the other towns and villages and on Indian reserves. It is exactly the same thing in Quebec. We greatly need federal money to invest in the infrastructure. The way to build the economy is to invest everywhere in Canada, to stimulate the economy and to create jobs. It would be good to have more money to invest to solve the social deficit and to invest in health insurance. So I agree with the Bloc Quebecois member.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

May 16th, 2003 / 12:35 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Madam Speaker, I knew there were questions and comments. I just did not think anyone would want to ask a question or make a comment on the speech of the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle.

It is my pleasure to stand in the House and resume debate. It has been a long week, I can appreciate that. It has been a very exciting week for myself and my party with the byelection results on Monday evening. I know the weeks to come will be equally as exciting, particularly with the government trying to defend its budget when it comes to not just simply a byelection, but a general election. It is not only their budget the Liberals have to try to defend, but the mismanagement that has taken place by this government over the last 10 years.

The member for Regina—Qu'Appelle had indicated that it seemed the economy changed in 1993 when the Liberal government was elected. I know the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle would have to give credit where credit is certainly due, in that the policies that were put into place prior to 1993 were the policies that this government is now living on.

The policy of the GST, where we took the manufacturing tax off and put it on to a goods and services tax, I appreciate is not a tax that Canadians appreciate all that much. However when it was brought forward in 1993, it was with the understanding that it would be a tax that would reduce the deficit, which Liberals always talks about, the $42 billion deficit prior to 1993. It was that particular improvement which helped us find ourselves in the economy we have today.

It is the same government that will throw up its arms and say that the Tories left it with a $42 billion deficit, but it does not seem to always take the other highroad and mention the free trade agreement which was negotiated with our American friends at that time because we did have a relationship with our American friends. This is something the government does not have at this time. We were able to sit down at the table and negotiate a free trade agreement that allows us to flourish in the economy we have today.

I know the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle did not mean it when he said there were terrible economic times prior to 1993 and immediately when the government took office those economic times changed, because it did not happen that way. It certainly did not happen in this government. As a matter of fact, in spite of themselves, the Liberals have taken our initiatives and allowed themselves to balance those budgets that we would have had balanced certainly long before they did.

The budget which has been tabled today is only a reflection of what has gone on in years past with Liberal governments. It gives us the understanding of the old 1970s Liberal philosophy of spend, spend, spend. It is a legacy, and we keep hearing that word all the time, of a tired government and a tired Prime Minister telling us that they will shotgun this budget, that they will please just about everybody they have in their political pockets and that wherever the economy goes from here, it really does not matter.

We have returned to an era where the Prime Minister of the day was the previous finance minister. We have returned to an era of the Pierre Trudeau spend, spend, spend philosophy of the Liberal government. Canadians are not terribly pleased about returning to that. It is a shotgun approach.

Bill C-28 is the budget implementation bill that puts into place the budget the Liberals have tabled in the House. This is really an unfortunate happening for Canadians because the Liberals have now increased program spending in this budget alone, which means spending that was there for programs prior to the 2003-04 budget, by 7.3%. That is substantial. I do not think Canadian households have the ability to spend an additional 7.3% this year than they did last year. That 7.3% program spending increase is taking out of this budget the health care and the military expenditures, which by the way were absolutely required.

When we take out those extraordinary costs of health care and defence and the military, there is still a 7.3% increase in program spending. It is shotgun program spending, I might add. The Prime Minister probably had a dartboard somewhere in his office or maybe a putting green and he kept putting into different areas to decide which programs he was going to spend on. That is what it seems like. There was no logic to this; it was simply an ad hoc, shotgun approach to the budget.

There is a 7.3% increase in program spending. However, the finance minister of the day, who is up against that other guy from LaSalle—Émard for the leadership, says that the Liberals are going to find $1 billion somewhere in this morass of government bureaucracy that they are going to put back in that area of program spending and they are going to save $1 billion.

I will tell members how the government has saved $1 billion. It got involved in a gun registry that has cost Canadians about $1 billion over the life of that registry. It is not gun control, it is gun registry. The Liberals are going to save money in other areas to put it back into program spending, so maybe they will save money in different areas to go back into this black hole of the gun registry. From where are they going to spend some of this money? They are going to find some efficiencies in the military, the same area that Canadians and our own Auditor General have said is sadly and sorely lacking for resources.

We were supposed to put about $1 billion or $1.3 billion back into the military for this year just so it could continue in its operations. We did not. I think the military received $800 million in this budget. Not only did it get less than what was necessary as the Auditor General indicated, now it has to find $200 million in its operations to give to the finance minister to spend on the gun registry.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:40 p.m.

An hon. member

It is idiotic.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:40 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

It gets beyond idiotic. This is how bad it is. There are members of our military in Afghanistan, and I can put faces on these people because there is a base in my riding, who are very dedicated, very professional people.

The Minister of National Defence has sent our people over to Afghanistan and said “By the way guys, you cannot have guns”. The government on the other side of the House messed up so badly that we put our guys in danger without their being able to have guns in Kabul. That is possibly the most dangerous, if not the most dangerous place on this globe and we put our guys in danger.

What are they supposed to do? When they run into a situation over there, our guys are supposed to put out their arm, point a finger and say “Stop, bang”. It is ridiculous. What kind of management is that? What kind of minister is it who would put our people in danger?

Not only that, we are supposed to find $200 million in that department so we can pay for the gun registry. Maybe they took their guns away. Maybe the people in the military did not register their guns and they cannot take them over there because of that.

We could talk about the Sea King helicopters. Do we want to talk about the budget? Let us talk about the budget. Let us talk about mismanagement. The parliamentary secretary is going to stand and say that there was $42 billion worth of deficit. That was 10 years ago and the mismanagement by that government of that department is absolutely renowned.

A helicopter, the EH-101 was approved in 1992. We would have had the helicopters in place flying right now with our military in safe equipment but what happened? The Prime Minister said “We say no to helicopters”. What was the cost of that political statement? It was $1 billion, the same amount it would have cost to buy the helicopters in the first place. It took $500 million to pay for the cancellation of the contract and another $500 million to fix the helicopters over the last 10 or 12 years. That is mismanagement and it is reflected everywhere in the budget.

More mismanagement and what is not reflected in this budget? Agriculture. I come from an area whose whole economic engine is driven by agriculture. And we will get to fisheries. My friend from St. John's is here and we could talk fisheries when we talk about mismanagement.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:45 p.m.

An hon. member

They didn't mention it.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

And agriculture was not mentioned. My community is certainly dependent upon agriculture.

The Minister of Agriculture stood in the House and said to me that we would have in place a risk management program in his APF, the agricultural policy framework, by April 1, 2003, the year the new budget was to start. A budget was put in place. Dollars were put in place. The government has announced 75 times a contribution to agriculture of $5.2 billion over the next six years, not just this budget year. We have less money in this budget year than we had in the last budget year for agriculture, and we have substantially more difficulties in the industry.

My good friend the member for Regina--Qu'Appelle mentioned the U.S. farm bill. He also mentioned the U.S. subsidies and the European subsidization of agriculture. Our industry is not competing on a level playing field right now. It is competing way out of its league. We do not have the same fallback positions that the Europeans and Americans have.

There are two issues. One is we do not have the plan in place which the minister promised us by April 1. We do not have money for our farmers. They are out in the fields right now without any understanding at all as to how there is going to be any kind of business risk management fallback for them. This could be their last year farming because the minister has mismanaged everything he has touched.

I would like to talk about 1993 and the deficit. Ever since the Liberals put their agricultural policy in place everything has turned downward. There has not been a positive year in agriculture since they touched the file. They have to get out of the way. They should not touch the file. We would be better off if the government did not have a minister of agriculture than what we have right now.

There is no money in the industry. There is no planning for the industry. We have no relationship with our major trading partner, the United States. Fifty per cent of what is produced in agriculture is sent to the United States. The Minister of Agriculture probably does not know the name of the United States secretary of agriculture. The government is depending on the American Republicans and the American industry to stop what is known as the country of origin labelling requirements contained in the U.S. farm bill. We have to depend on the Americans to fight our battles. The point is the government should get out of the way and let somebody else take on the file.

Let me speak about the budget.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Loyola Hearn Progressive Conservative St. John's West, NL

It did not mention fisheries.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Fisheries I have to admit is not really my field of expertise, but it demonstrates the government's mismanagement.

We talked about gun registration. We talked about the government's inability to deal with agriculture. We talked about its inability to deal with fisheries. At any level, the government has destroyed pretty much everything that was left in the fisheries. The Liberals stick their heads in the sand and do not want to take responsibility for it. The government has destroyed the softwood lumber industry. It is gone.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:45 p.m.

An hon. member

Health care.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

They have destroyed health care as my good colleague has said.

In the post-1993 election, the Liberals arbitrarily gutted health care. Now all of a sudden in this budget, money has been put back into health care. Unfortunately, it just takes us back to the 1995 levels. What the government did, and this is really deplorable, is it arbitrarily took cash away from the provinces and put the blame for health care on them.

There is a term cooperative federalism. The government does not understand cooperative federalism. It does not understand cooperation in just about anything. It is arbitrary and unfortunately the Liberals have to pay for it. The Liberals paid for it on Monday night and they will certainly pay for it in elections to come.

Madam Speaker, I am sure you would much rather be outside in the sunshine than in here listening to me rant on the budget, but my time will be up very shortly and I am just beginning to roll.

We can talk about what the Liberals did not touch in the budget. They used the shotgun approach. They made all of these wonderful expenditures where the Prime Minister is trying to pay off all of his little debts before he leaves. What they did not do was talk about the real vision of what was required.

In my previous life before coming to the House, I found that it was always better to keep money in the pockets of the people who pay the taxes. This is really a simple philosophy. The member for Regina--Qu'Appelle probably will not share this philosophy with me, but it is better to keep the money in the pockets of the people who pay the taxes. They know how to spend the money better.

The finance minister has stood in the House and I think he used the term “northern tiger”. That was probably one of the biggest heights of hypocrisy I have ever heard, calling us the northern tiger, because he has never implemented any policies on tax reform that would give any indication that we are heading in the direction of being a northern tiger. The real tigers are the economies of Ireland and Hong Kong. Those are the economies that have used tax deductions and tax reductions to the benefit of the consumer, to the benefit of their citizens, to develop those economies that can be referred to as tigers.

We would be better referred to as the economy of the pussycats. We have effectively no tax reduction. We have absolutely no understanding as to how this economy could be better served by the Liberals not spending the money on HRDC, not spending the money on the gun registry, not spending the money on all of those black holes that the Prime Minister has put into place. It is better to make tax reductions, tax rebates and tax cuts, not only to Canadian consumers and taxpayers but to the corporations. Then we could develop a thing called a positive business environment that certainly would attract people to this country.

There are a couple of things. Let us reduce those taxes. Let us reduce the capital gains tax. Let us reduce the levels of taxation. In Canada the highest margin of taxes is at $100,000. In the United States it is at $400,000. We already are dealing in a deficit. Our Canadian children who have talent are going to go to other places rather than stay in this country which is deplorable, but the government is forcing them to leave. That in itself is deplorable.

Let us make some changes and reforms to the taxation system. What would the Liberals rather do? They would rather play with a piece of legislation that is going to deal with political financing because that is the Prime Minister's agenda, not making it better for Canadians with tax reductions. Why is the Prime Minister's agenda on political funding? Because he is vindictive enough to try to get the people on the back benches, to get the people on his own front benches who are running for leadership. That is why he has that agenda and not the agenda that is best for Canadians, not whether there will be tax cuts, not the situation with the sex offenders act, not the priorities of Canadians in general. That is deplorable.

I am going to sit down right now and let the parliamentary secretary speak. No applause yet. I know the parliamentary secretary is going to talk about the $42 billion deficit but he is not going to defend his government's mismanagement of every other thing that I have said here today. I want him to stand and tell me how he can defend the gun registry, how the health minister could stick her head in the sand when the SARS issue was prevalent in Ontario, how the Liberals could stick their heads in the sand while they destroyed the health care system, how they could stick their heads in the sand while they destroyed the softwood lumber industry, and how they could stick their heads in the sand when they destroyed agriculture. I want to hear those answers from the parliamentary secretary.

This has been a great week. Congratulations to Gary Schellenberger and congratulations to the citizens of Perth--Middlesex who have made the very wise choice to send a Progressive Conservative to the House. I can assure members that he will be on that side of the bench in the not too distant future. I do hope that the Liberals have the intestinal fortitude to call an election this spring with the current Prime Minister. We would love to go to the polls.

Budget Implementation Act, 2003Government Orders

12:55 p.m.

Oak Ridges Ontario

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance

Madam Speaker, I guess we are replaying the movie The Invasion of the Body Snatchers in here today, because I remember the days when my friend there and I worked together, when we were complaining about the government of the day, the Tory government, because it did not make the crucial investments that this member is now seeing happening across the country.

However, I would point out to the hon. member that spending in 2000-01 was 11% of GDP. This year it was 12.2%, the lowest since 1950. Why? Because of good fiscal management.

We have an increase of $5.1 billion this year because of health care. He talks about gutting the health care system. It is run by the provinces and 75% of the health care this year for the Province of Ontario comes from federal transfers, not from the province. I can repeat that across with other provinces. The fact is that it has been the mismanagement of some of the provinces on health care; they are more interested in tax cuts than dealing with the sick. They would rather deal with tax cuts. He knows that and we know that.

Also, I would point out that as far as this budget is concerned, he says it is a machine gun approach, all over the place, but the reality is--

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12:55 p.m.

An hon. member

Oh, oh.

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12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Oak Ridges, ON

Shotgun. Oh yes, he is the expert on guns. I forgot.

The fact is that when it comes to this budget the major increase is in health care because that is what Canadians said they wanted to see.

I am badly disappointed that he does not recognize that the OECD and the IMF said that in terms of economic output we are leading again. We are the leaders in the G-7 this year and we are going to be the leaders next year. He does not mention the significant reduction in the national debt, down to 44.5% from just six years ago at 71.5%. In real terms economic growth is at 3.2% this year and will be at 3.5% next year.

These are things that of course Conservatives would not recognize because they have always been dealing with deficits. I am not going to mention the big deficit they left, because of course that is the kind of thing they are more used to.

Of course our Alliance friends here are no better. In fact what I get tired about with the Alliance, particularly some members over there, is that they talk the line. One day they say to spend $3 billion and the next day they say to save $3 billion. If we had that approach we would really be in a deficit and we would have a massive debt.

I would like the member to deal with the real figures, the real issues, with health care, investing in families and the hundred billion dollar tax cut. I would like him to say when the last time was we saw those kinds of investments. I will not go into infrastructure because he knows that is a dangerous thing for him to talk about.

Those are the kinds of things Canadians asked for and we have delivered. Are there any comments from my hon. friend in the corner?

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1 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Madam Speaker, I heard one of his colleagues say great job. I guess if that is all they can see as being an example of a great job, then I understand why they are floundering as badly as they are currently. The government the Liberals have is obviously entrenched in this mismanagement philosophy and that just exacerbates it right there.

I find it interesting, however, that when the parliamentary secretary stood up one of the first things he did was obviously to blame us as the previous government prior to 1993, which was 10 years ago, so let us always use a decade ago and let us not take any responsibility.

What really hurt me the most is when he stood and he blamed the provinces for their health care woes. That is sort of like the Prime Minister blaming the previous member for Perth—Middlesex for losing the election. I think that probably is part of their speaking notes they receive every morning: “When you get hammered on something, blame someone else”. They point the finger of blame somewhere else, as they did with SARS, with agriculture and with every other of those mismanaged areas I talked about.

The member did have one legitimate comment to make when he talked about the reduction of spending versus GDP. It is true that they now have it at 12% of GDP. We must also appreciate the fact that the spending on programs has increased by 7.3%. Spending on those faulty programs they have, including the gun registry, has increased by 7.3%, but yes, it has reduced it as its proportionate share of GDP. However, the reason for this is that our GDP has increased because of the free trade agreement we signed. We have an economy that is very strong because we can sell our goods and services. We can sell our goods and services because we have rules based trade agreements with our largest trading partner, the United States.

It does not take a rocket scientist. In fact, it does not take really much logical thinking at all, but that is maybe stretching it a bit and asking these people to understand that. What it means is that we have a larger economy. We have a larger economy because of all the free trade agreements, the GST that was put into place and the financing arrangements that we had prior to 1993. I wish the Liberals would recognize that and at least give some credit where credit is due.

Yes, it has decreased because the economy has increased, but that does not just happen automatically. It does not happen on the day that the electorate goes to the polls and we get these, no, I cannot use the term, we get this government in place and then all of a sudden the skies are all clear. It does not happen. Those programs were in place prior to 1993. They are programs that the government is taking advantage of right now.

Unfortunately, when it turns, and it will, because they have no vision, no understanding of how to handle anything and manage anything, then the Liberals will be responsible. They will be held responsible.

By the way, the member never did talk about this. Why do we not go with this budget to the people and let them decide as to whether or not it is a good budget? Maybe he would like to answer that question.

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1 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member a question. The parliamentary secretary is still boasting about good Liberal government. I must admit, I do not know what kind of a bubble he is living in.

When there is a $70 billion surplus that was not forecast, over the past give or six years, there is a problem. When the government is unable to tell us exactly what is up with public funds, when it systematically underestimates its surplus and then puts the $70 billion in question out of the realm of public debate, there is a problem.

When $45 billion has been diverted from the EI fund for purposes other than the one for which workers and employers pay into it, thereby penalizing the unemployed, it seems to me that we have a problem.

I would like to know whether the hon. member shares my point of view, which is that this government's way of managing public funds—in particular in the February 18 budget—is totally devoid of transparency.

Before letting him answer, I will moreover conclude by reading a brief passage from a letter from Yves Séguin, now the Quebec minister of finance, in which he said:

Accountability, as far as public funds are concerned, requires a government to bring down a budget, get votes passed, and levy taxes accordingly. To systematically announce in advance surpluses which the government has not clearly indicated will be forthcoming raises a serious problem of transparency and is, of course, contrary to the interest of the taxpayers, who are the ones who have to pay.

I would like to know if the hon. member shares the point of view of the new finance minister of Quebec?

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1:05 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Madam Speaker, what a great question. I thank my colleague for it. That is one area I have not had the opportunity of talking about in my 20 minute dissertation.

Absolutely: How can we have any faith and how can there be any credibility in a finance minister or a finance department that year after year underestimates the surplus, not by dollars but by billions and tens of billions of dollars? There is no credibility left.

I think the reason why the previous finance minister, the leadership candidate from LaSalle—Émard, did it was that he wanted to keep it out of the sticky fingers of the backbenchers over there, who probably wanted to spend it on that shotgun approach that I talked about. So yes, it loses credibility in the management of the department.

It is not the bureaucrats. It is not those people. I blame this on the political masters who have tried to hide this whole transparency of the budgetary process and the surpluses that were generated. Then what did they did they do? They put it into the deficit and that is fine, but let us be honest. Of those surpluses, had they been honest with Canadians they could have given some of those surpluses back, not only in tax reductions to the Canadian taxpayer, but they could have reduced the EI payments that we are talking about right now. They could have put that back to the employers and the employees and not have them pay those exorbitant premiums in EI. Any of the surplus in the EI, which is a different pool of funding, goes into general revenues now, which again, I am convinced, is totally illegal but is happening.

The problem is the government has lost its credibility. It has lost its ability to say it is a good manager. After its 10 years in power, even the Canadian public is recognizing that this is a government totally out of control.

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1:05 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gerry Ritz Canadian Alliance Battlefords—Lloydminster, SK

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise today to join my colleagues in this third reading debate on the budget. The government has to put its budget in play to start paying the bills for this fiscal year. However it has already done that, so it is kind of a moot point to debate what it should and should not do when the race has already begun. The spending is out of control already.

I read an article in the newspaper this morning saying that the Rolling Stones may consider coming to Toronto. They will not charge their regular rate, but for a small $10 million fee they will put on a concert. What a bargain. I guess I would be all for it as long as they start and finish their presentation with the Canadian taxpayers' lament, that good old song they wrote, “I can't get no satisfaction”. That would be worth the $10 million, if they dedicated that to the taxpayers of this great country. It would be well worth the price of admission and well worth the $10 million. We foolishly spend a lot more than that on any given day here in this place. I am sure the Liberals will take that into account when they invite them to come, and ensure that they play that particular tune.

We are talking about budget 2003. We had a rookie minister who gave it his best shot and he came up short. No one across the country felt or saw that this was a good budget. It did not please anyone. My colleague from Brandon--Souris talked about the shotgun approach. I do not disagree with that. Of course the parliamentary secretary talked about a machine gun approach. I guess that is why the registry for firearms has gone so far off the rails; the parliamentary secretary does not know a shotgun from a machine gun. It really was.

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1:05 p.m.

An hon. member

A soldering gun.