Debates of Sept. 17th, 2003

Criminal Code

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Speaker]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Speaker]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Speaker]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

[The Speaker]

I declare the motion carried.

(Bill read the third time and passed)

The House resumed from September 15 consideration of the motion.

Community Activity Support Fund

[The Speaker]

The House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on Motion No. 393 under private members' business.

(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the following division:)

[The Speaker]

I declare the motion lost.

The House resumed from September 16 consideration of the motion that Bill C-421, an act respecting the establishment of the Office of the Chief Actuary of Canada and to amend other acts in consequence thereof, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Chief Actuary Act

[The Speaker]

Pursuant to order made on Tuesday, September 16, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the motion at second reading stage of Bill C-421 under private members' business.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

[The Speaker]

I declare the motion carried. Accordingly, the bill stands referred to the Standing Committee on Finance.

(Bill read the second time and referred to a committee)

[The Speaker]

I wish to inform the House that because of the delay there will be no private members' business today. I hope nobody is upset by that. Accordingly, the order will be rescheduled for a subsequent sitting.

A motion to adjourn the House under Standing Order 38 deemed to have been moved

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise tonight on an issue regarding banking procedures and charges that are levied upon businesses across the country by a company called Moneris. I originally put this question to the Minister of Finance on June 11 and I do appreciate the opportunity to expand on that question.

By way of explanation, what it really comes down to is that a company called Moneris was set up to skirt banking bylaws. The Bank of Montreal, now called BMO, and the Royal Bank, RBC, set up Moneris to skirt Canadian card rules that bar banks from issuing both MasterCard and Visa cards and processors from handling both brands.

Again, by way of explanation, Moneris Solutions Corp. which was set up in December 2001, can now process both Visa and MasterCard accounts because of the fifty-fifty partnership between the two of them. The Bank of Montreal issues cards and acquires merchants under the Visa brand while the Royal Bank of Canada does so under the MasterCard brand.

In accordance with the Canadian Bank Card Association's non-duality bylaws and according to its interpretation the banks are not combining their card portfolios. They are simply funnelling the merchant processing business to Moneris. The problem is that a couple of years ago they had over 300,000 clients, businesses with which they did business, in Canada and about 30,000 in the U.S. Obviously those are two Canadian banks for some customers in the U.S. However they are overcharging their clients.

I received a note on this from a former member of this House, in fact the former chairman of the finance committee, by the name of Murray Dorin. We sat with him in the House. He is well qualified in that capacity. He has taken these people to task on this. He is asking Moneris to review this situation and to refund the overcharged amount, which has happened routinely. We are not just talking about a few dollars; we are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars spread across many companies. That is not fair. Basically it puts small companies at the mercy of big companies.

What has happened in this case, when the Royal Bank and the Bank of Montreal hived off this business and set up Moneris, they basically set up a company that would not be as profitable under a wider range of financial services. In other words, this corporation is now extracting an excessive amount of charges from companies when their contractual agreement says that this should not happen. In other words, they are being overcharged.

We want the finance committee to take a look at this. We would like the Minister of Finance to take a serious look at these overcharges. This is wrong and we should not have to stand in the House of Commons to get action on behalf of a company that acknowledges some wrongdoing but has failed to compensate its clients for overcharging them over a period of years.

We hope we will see some action by the government and we look forward to a response by the minister.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity tonight to respond to the request from the member for New Brunswick Southwest that the Minister of Finance recommend that the Standing Committee on Finance examine the pricing practices of Moneris Solutions.

Let me begin by stating that the federal government does not generally regulate the pricing of financial services. We believe that Canadians are best served in an environment where financial services providers must compete for business and where consumers have sufficient knowledge to make informed choices. Vibrant competition will not only generate fair pricing of financial services, but will also ensure that Canada's financial sector remains dynamic and innovative.

I would like to note for the hon. member that Moneris is not the only company offering credit card processing services to businesses in Canada. In fact, similar services are provided by several other companies. As such, businesses can shop around to find the service provider that best suits their needs.

I would also like to note that the Competition Bureau is responsible for ensuring competitive markets through its administration and enforcement of the Competition Act, and has a variety of tools at its disposal to address anti-competitive practices. Consumers and businesses in the financial services sector who feel they are being overcharged, as was suggested by the member, as a result of an agreement among competitors or some other type of anti-competitive behaviour can raise their complaints directly with the Competition Bureau.

Lastly, as my colleagues stated in the House on June 11, 2003, the finance committee sets its own agenda and is free to examine whatever it chooses. If the member believes an issue should be examined in more detail, as he has indicated, he should make his request directly to the chair of the committee or ask his party representative on the committee to raise the issue.

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I respect that response by the parliamentary secretary and I understand completely what she is saying. We understand the responsibilities of the various ministers but we are hoping that something can be resolved.

It is fundamentally wrong when the two big banks set up this company called Moneris to basically skirt their own banking bylaws. That is where the problem occurred. It is easy to tell a company to shop around but when it has been doing business with a bank for a series of years and that bank takes one of its financial services and hives it off to another company and breaks the contractual agreement that the company had from the very beginning with the original bank, there is something wrong with this. We have seen this happen in the marketplace in the banking sector more than once.

You know yourself, Mr. Speaker, having been in business and seeing businesses in your own community, that some of these small businesses do not have the luxury of switching banks and shopping around.

What I am asking is that the parliamentary secretary bring this to the attention of the appropriate minister within government. I am prepared to do that as well and we are prepared to do that at committee stage. However I would like to see this situation resolved without going through a lengthy procedure which sometimes small companies have to go through; avoid a court case, if you will, Mr. Speaker. All I am asking is that we call these people before the House and make them accountable.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I can assure the member that even with his cold and his voice cracking he has made his points very well.

I think, as parliamentarians, we all want to ensure that small business as big business are treated fairly and adequately. I will pass on the issues that have been raised this evening to the minister. I urge the member for New Brunswick Southwest to bring this to the attention of the chair of the committee. I am sure that if the chair feels that the committee needs to move forward with it, the committee certainly will do that.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The motion that this House do now adjourn is deemed adopted. Therefore, the House stands adjourned until 10 a.m. tomorrow, pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 7:23 p.m.)