Mr. Speaker, the legislation before us could cause tremendous problems for a number of segments in our society.
However, I would first like to comment on some comments made by the member for Regina--Qu'Appelle. He is a gentleman who has been around these hallowed halls for quite some time and is much more experienced than most people here. Certainly he can stand with anybody here in relation to his time and dedication in this honourable House. However his view and my view on the Senate are quite different.
I believe that the Senate does play an extremely important role. We can argue, and eventually we will some day, maybe sooner rather than later, about how the Senate is selected. Having said that, some of the best work done around here in relation to thorough analysis, in relation to sound second opinions, in relation to committee work, in relation to dealing with issues which the House of Commons cannot deal with, is done by the Senate. We could argue as much as we would like to as to how those people should be selected, and we will argue about that somewhere along the line, but we should never underestimate the type of sound second thought that comes from the people in the other place.
In this case, I believe its amendments are very legitimate. I listened earlier to the justice critic from the Alliance who made a very well reasoned speech on this very issue. I agree with everything the hon. gentleman said, as usual, as the Alliance and ourselves agree on practically everything. I believe the hon. member hit the nail on the head when he raised some concerns. We do not have to go any further than the first couple of paragraphs in the bill, and I will read them into the record:
182.2(1) Every one who commits an offence who, wilfully or recklessly,
(a) causes or, being the owner, permits to be caused unnecessary pain, suffering or injury to an animal;
(b) kills an animal or, being the owner, permits an animal to be killed, brutally or viciously, regardless of whether the animal dies immediately--
On the surface no one will argue with that. However my concern is that when the courts get a piece of legislation like this and when this legislation is tested in front of some sympathetic judge, I am not sure whether his or her interpretation and the interpretation we place upon it here will be the same. Therein lies major problems. This creates problems for farmers and ranchers, but in particular, it creates problems for people in the medical field.
Probably people sitting in this very House and certainly 95% of the Canadian public who are undoubtedly tuned in to CPAC to watch what we are saying and doing here in the House are able to turn on the television, to sit and listen, to walk, or drive their cars, or play a part in Parliament because of some medical advancements that were discovered or created by scientists and doctors who were able to experiment. Without that experimentation, which is usually done on animals, many of the cures, many of the antibiotics and anti-viruses and so on that have been found would not have been discovered.
Is there pain and suffering inflicted in experimentation? Undoubtedly there is. Is it right to experiment and cause pain and suffering? According to this resolution, on interpretation, a judge could undoubtedly say one cannot inflict pain and suffering. If that is going to ensure that experimentation cannot go on, I am not sure whose rights we are protecting and where the line is drawn. This is a very serious piece of legislation which cannot be allowed to pass if interpretation means by doing so we could be jeopardizing the lives of many people in our country.
Let me carry it one step further to practical happenings outside the experimentation field. What about ranchers and farmers who deal with animals in order to make a living? They are dealing with large numbers of animals and how they are handled in the branding and whatever, some people could interpret it as causing pain and suffering to the animals.
One might say everyone is broadminded enough to know what has to be done. That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about a piece of legislation which we know full well can be interpreted in the courts. People ask who is going to bring it to court. We know who will bring it to court: the animal rights people who will bring anything at all to court. If they have some legal framework in which to bring forth their arguments, it certainly gives them carte blanche to test any hypothesis.
Let me talk about one other issue and that is the seal hunt off the east coast and the north coast of Canada and especially off Newfoundland and Labrador. The seal hunt has been an issue that has drawn a tremendous amount of attention from the animal rights groups. Greenpeace and other animal rights and animal welfare groups, which are certainly too numerous to mention, have drawn a lot of attention, and I would suggest a tremendous amount of funding, to their causes by taking on the seal hunters off Newfoundland and Labrador.
The seal hunters are carrying on an industry that has gone on for years and years. These people subsidize their meagre income by participating in the seal hunt. They are doing something that the government refuses to do and that is to control the massive seal herds off our coasts. We have the same situation in northern Quebec. We have it in your own area undoubtedly, Mr. Speaker, and in particular off our coasts. Our seal herds are ballooning. They have increased sixfold in recent years.
Our fish stocks, our cod stocks and our groundfish in particular have practically disappeared. The people who list the species on the endangered species list are currently looking at placing the northern cod on the endangered species list.
The northern cod was the most prolific cod stock in the world. It was a cod stock that drew people from all nations to participate in the fishery. It was, as we say, load and go. When the cod were harvested using proper techniques, giving the fish a chance to grow and reproduce, the stock remained year after year for 500 years. Then technology caught up to it and governments weakened and we let people, countries, processors, individual harvesters and everyone go out and catch and catch until they got close to catching the last codfish using technology from which the resource could not escape.
Nobody cared. It was only fish and it was only Newfoundland and Labrador. It was only northern Quebec. It was only the Northwest Territories. Who cared? We are the fringes of the country. We are forgotten most of the time so no one paid much attention.
Suddenly people started to realize what was happening to a renewable resource that can create so much employment for the country, that can contribute so much to the coffers of the country. The current ground fishery in Newfoundland is practically non-existent. The fishery is still relatively good because of crab and shrimp, shellfish. Our landed value is more than it ever was but if we took out the shell fishery which was non-existent 15 years ago, the result would be nothing because our ground fishery has practically disappeared.
If we had maintained the ground fishery that we had in 1973 when all of these things started to collapse, if these stocks had been maintained, not even enhanced but maintained, the value of the 1973 landings in today's dollars would amount to $3.38 billion. That is significant. That is just groundfish. If on top of that we added the $1 billion or so that we take in on shrimp and crab, we would have an industry in Newfoundland and Labrador with a landed value at over $4 billion. Just imagine what that would mean to our province. Imagine what it would mean to the coffers of Canada.
One of the reasons our stocks were devastated was that the seals were not controlled. The pressure groups caused the cessation of the sealing industry and for several years the seal herds grew and grew completely unchecked.
The fishery has been reinstituted. However even though the minister, to give him credit, has over the last couple of years raised the quota, it is so minuscule. It is not keeping up with the growth in the seal herd. We still have six million to eight million seals eating the fish. People will argue that they do not eat codfish. A former politician made the statement that they do not eat turnips. What do they eat? They eat fish. We know they eat fish.
Consequently if the seal hunt is stopped or slowed down because of the animal rights groups, it is going to be devastating. If these groups have a piece of legislation that gives them the opportunity to run to the courts and say that the hunt is inhumane or cruel or whatever, and the judge making the judgment has never seen a seal or knows nothing about the seal hunt, then I would not want to bet the few dollars I might have on the decision.
It is a concern particularly for our people, but it is a concern for anyone involved in the resource industries, especially the animal resource industries across the country. It is a concern for people who experiment in the medical field who realize that in order to do the work that has to be done, to cure SARS, to cure AIDS, to cure cancer we have to experiment. If we are not going to experiment on animals, then I am not sure what the result will be.
We have concerns. We think the amendments will alleviate some of these concerns. Consequently, like the member for Provencher, I certainly will support the amendments and I ask the House to do so.