Debates of Oct. 13th, 2004

National Defence

[Bill Casey, Conservative, North Nova, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the minister does have one answer to why he tied the boats up and we would like to know what it is.

Here is another question that we have asked a number of times. An urgent report on October 16, 2003 identified a dangerous situation that could jeopardize the lives of our sailors and our subs. It involved the initiating cartridges and it specifically made recommendations to store them in a “fitted, approved and floodable compartment”.

Were these life and death changes made to the Windsor , the Victoria or the Chicoutimi ? If the minister does not know the answer, will he agree to provide the answer as soon as he can get it?

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, all ammunition is certified and guaranteed and is stored in a safe place in all our subs.

There is no way that any submariner would go to sea in a situation that was unsafe with respect to the storage of their ammunition. All ammunition in all our subs is stored in a very secure way. All of those storage capabilities are certified before the ships go to sea.

Taxation

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance estimated the surplus to be $1.9 billion, but it is more like $9.1 billion—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Speaker]

Order. The hon. member for Laurier—Sainte-Marie.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, this is Liberal style. They delight in cover-ups. It is not $1.9 billion, but $9.1 billion. This Minister of Finance suffers from financial dyslexia, and the government suffers from chronic under estimation. They are hiding the truth.

Enough is enough. Should the fiscal imbalance not be resolved by October 26?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the truth is not hidden. Indeed, it is very good news for all Canadians.

The federal government's fiscal strength is an advantage to all Canadians. Our triple A credit rating keeps everyone's interest rates low, including those of citizens and the government of Quebec. Our average Canadian standard of living is constantly on the rise. Our fiscal performance helps to stimulate investment and employment, and it makes it possible for us to help our partners in the provinces with things like $41 billion more for health care and $33 billion more for--

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Laurier—Sainte-Marie.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, when they say “more” they mean they want even more sponsorships for their friends. When they say “more” they mean they want even more cuts to the provinces. They did not eliminate the deficit, they had the provinces and the unemployed pay it and they stole from the employment insurance fund.

On October 26, will the government resolve the fiscal imbalance instead of making someone else pay for it, as it did in the past purely hypocritically?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I am sure the first ministers will have a very useful conversation on October 26. They intend to deal with serious matters in a serious way, just as they did a couple of weeks ago when they met here in Ottawa to deal with health care.

On health care we now have a long term plan that will shorten waiting lists, improve primary care and lead to better services and care for all Canadians everywhere in the country. The Government of Canada is contributing $41 billion more to make that happen.

When we meet on October 26 we will confirm $33 billion more for equalization.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Speaker, considering the means that the federal government has at its disposal, it is puzzling to see that its budget forecasts are so far off the mark, while at the same time the government is arrogantly dictating to the provinces how things will be run, by telling them, for instance, that, as regards equalization, it is going to be the federal government's way and no other way.

How can the government justify its arrogance toward the provinces when, year after year, it keeps demonstrating its inability to make credible budget forecasts, despite the arsenal of means at its disposal?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, in addition to health care and equalization, the Government of Canada assists provinces in many other ways. We have indicated in the throne speech, for example, that we will be helping with child care, communities and senior citizens.

We have ongoing support for post-secondary education, social services, infrastructure, the environment, agriculture, natural resources, immigration, regional development, housing, the alleviation of homelessness, innovation and research. In all these ways we work in close partnership with provincial governments.

[Yvan Loubier, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

How arrogant, Mr. Speaker. This is unbelievable. In a study commissioned by the federal government itself, the Conference Board said that federal surpluses will total at least $166 billion over the next 11 years, and this is a conservative estimate, while the provinces could run deficits in excess of $60 billion.

Is this not evidence of a major problem, namely that the provinces are truly suffering from a fiscal imbalance that needs to be corrected as quickly as possible, and not met with arrogance?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, contrary to the tone of the official opposition, when all the first ministers were around the table here a couple of weeks ago, they had a very positive discussion. Obviously they were candid and pointed with each other but the end result was that they took major steps to solve an important problem to improve the health care of Canadians. I have no doubt that they will do the same on October 26.

However it should be noted on fiscal imbalance that both orders of government have access to the same major tax bases. The provinces have some bases that the federal government does not, in lotteries and royalties, and each government has total fiscal autonomy.

[Jack Layton, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, today we hear once again that the Liberals' budget figures are pure fiction. The budget surplus is four times higher than what was forecast. That is incredible. To date, a total of $84 billion has been manipulated. Every cent of the surplus is put toward the Prime Minister's artificial target.

Will the Minister of Finance announce today that he will let this House decide of the use to be made of this surplus?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, in terms of where the money was dedicated at the end of the last fiscal year, I am pleased to tell the hon. gentleman that to the extent that we could measure the available flexibility at the time of the budget on March 23, that money went to health care, SARS, BSE and municipalities.

The amount of the surplus that became known in the statistics in September was dedicated to reducing the debt, which saves interest payments for all Canadians.

[Jack Layton, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is quite clear that the Liberal government is simply incapable of counting Canadians' money. That is how much the Liberals care about it. The money they found could have provided three child care programs.

We support balanced budgets and achieving good debt ratios but not an artificial target that the Prime Minister never talked about in the election.

It is time to end the Liberal mentality of Enron on the Rideau. It is time to put an end to it.

Will the minister support the NDP proposal for an independent budget office, yes or no?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I would remind the hon. gentleman that our fiscal forecasting is not done in-house. It is not done on the basis of a single economist that we just pick because he might agree with our point of view. It is based on the independent professional judgment of 19 professional economists selected from across the country.

While I am interested in the proposal that the hon. gentleman makes for some kind of independent review, I would caution against following the American example too closely because the Americans have an annual budget deficit of very nearly the total.

Sponsorship Program

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has repeatedly said that he knew nothing of the sponsorship program and yet, to support a request by a Montreal sports organization and a group of Liberal friends, he actively looked for $600,000 in sponsorship funds. He said that he was out of the loop but documents show that he was clearly trying to get into the loop to help his friends.

The Prime Minister has denied his involvement but documents clearly tell a different story. When will the Prime Minister come clean and tell the truth about his involvement in ad scam?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has said repeatedly that he was aware of the sponsorship program. All members of Parliament were aware of the sponsorship program. It was a national program of the Government of Canada.

When the Prime Minister became aware of alleged malfeasance, he acted immediately to cancel the sponsorship program and to start a judicial inquiry.

I would urge the hon. member to respect the independence of that judicial inquiry, allow Justice Gomery to do his work, to get the whole picture and learn the truth for Canadians.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we are not prejudging the inquiry. What we are judging is a Prime Minister who says one thing and yet clearly does another.

What we are asking for is clear accountability which the Prime Minister does not seem to have the ability to show to the House.

I want to know from the cabinet minister, the very cabinet minister who used to stand up in the House and call the Prime Minister a corrupt yesterday's man, what changed in his attitude when he used to say that he would get to the bottom of this issue and force the Prime Minister to come clean. What happened to the minister?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, there is a deputy leader over there who used to call the leader antagonistic and ill-informed.

The fact is all MPs were aware of this program. All MPs across Canada from all political parties received support from that program, including the member for Calgary West, including the ridings of Calgary Southeast, Wild Rose, St. John's East, St. Albert, South Shore, and the riding of Kings--Hants where I was proud as a member of Parliament when I sat in the opposition to have received support from that very good program for very good initiatives like the apple blossom festival and the pumpkin race.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, according to reports in 1999 the sponsorship program turned down a $600,000 application from Internationaux du Sport de Montréal headed by Serge Savard, a leadership fundraiser of the Prime Minister's. The office of the finance minister, now the Prime Minister, called Alfonso Gagliano's office to see why this group never received the $600,000. Following that intervention this group received $250,000.

Could the minister tell the House if the Prime Minister was aware of this political direction given by his office and when he was made aware of it?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, we are not going to discuss the day to day testimony of the Gomery commission here on the floor of the House of Commons because there is no reason why today's testimony would not be contradicted by next week's testimony. By the time Justice Gomery has completed his work, Canadians will have the whole truth, which they deserve, and the truth that we are committed to achieving in this government on behalf of Canadians.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Kings--Hants said, and I quote from Hansard :

We are all familiar with the public works scandal and the millions of dollars that were wasted, misdirected and misappropriated.

Now as a minister he seems to be singing from a different song sheet.

We all know that the current Prime Minister intervened on behalf of a group which included his key leadership fundraiser and his principal secretary, Francis Fox. Does the Prime Minister expect us to believe that he knew nothing about the sponsorship scandal?