House of Commons Hansard #30 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was chair.
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Mr. Chair, I am unable to answer the question about the expenditures on the trials. That would be available before the trials begin and I would be happy to share that with the hon. member.
Carol Skelton Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK
Mr. Chair, I would like to tell the Minister of Health that I am very disturbed about this because if something does happen and we need smallpox vaccine, I want Canadians to have the very best.
The 11 vaccine producing companies, including ID Biomedical Corp., have made it clear that they cannot proceed to make trial batches unless someone pays for them. Officials from Canada's new Public Health Agency stated that they will be applying for funding to order production and testing of HFN1 vaccine.
Has or will the funding be approved or even considered? If so, how much and when?
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Mr. Chair, if I remember correctly, the hon. member is talking about avian flu. Dr. David Butler-Jones is seized of these issues. He will talk to his counterparts across the country and even throughout the world. If and when we need to take action on that, he will advise us. Politics will not guide us. It will be public safety that guides all of us in these issues.
Carol Skelton Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK
Mr. Chair, when the SARS outbreak hit Toronto, it cost this country a great amount. It cost some Canadians their lives.
The minister must act on this immediately. When will the minister get the procedure for the avian flu vaccine started?
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Mr. Chair, I am no medical expert but I understand that this kind of vaccine can only be produced once there is a strain available and we know what strain it is going to be. These are very difficult issues. They are science based issues. That is why we have the chief public health officer. That is why we have the Public Health Agency. It is absolutely independent in making those kinds of decisions. They are the right people to make those decisions. Politicians as government will pay whatever cost there is to make the right decisions and execute them.
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
Mr. Chair, I will not be using up all of my time. Whatever remaining time I have I would like to split with my colleague from Central Nova.
This is one of these interesting cases. It is very interesting seeing the member sitting in the Liberal cabinet. As a British Columbian I remember the many years when he was the premier of British Columbia and a cabinet minister in British Columbia and the scathing criticisms that he had for the Prime Minister and his actions as the finance minister. In fact, I remember him using some words about how he helped destroy British Columbia's health care system, how he left us in the dust and all these sorts of things.
Perhaps we could have an opportunity here for some revisionism. Would the health minister actually give his assessment of the health care system over the last 10 years? Virtually every indicator in terms of public health is it is getting worse. Private delivery has gone up. People are paying more with credit cards. Health care waiting lists are longer. The time for diagnosis is taking longer and longer. It is getting worse and worse.
When the minister was the premier of British Columbia he had scathing criticisms for the Prime Minister about health care. Now he is singing a different tune. As a British Columbian I want to know what happened and why he changed his mind.
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Mr. Chair, it is actually astounding how wrong the hon. member is on all counts, not just one of the counts.
First, I as a politician have never used rude words about other politicians. I have absolutely never used rude words about other politicians.
Second, if the hon. member produces the quotations he is talking about, I would be happy to talk to him about them.
Third, with respect to the issue that he raises about the state of our health care, all privatizers want to say that our health care is going down the drain. People on that side of the House are privatizers who want to see health care privatized in this country.
There is no question that our health care system can withstand reforms, innovations, enhancements and improvements. However, there is one thing that Canadians will fight for and it is the public health care system that they cherish so much.
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
Mr. Chair, the minister perhaps has selective amnesia about the past. I would invite him to check the Hansard for what he said in the B.C. legislature when he was premier and when he was attorney general.
If the Liberal Party is so committed to public health care, I am curious about a document, “A Platform for British Columbia” which the minister ran on when he was a candidate in the past campaign.
Also, there is a member of the Privy Council of the government sitting in cabinet and his constituency is Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca. As a Liberal member of Parliament and as a Liberal member of the cabinet he has written that all five pillars of the Canada Health Act are a joke, that the government should walk away from it, that there should be a private parallel public system. He is in the Liberal government.
I think people on this side, physicians and all Canadians across this country are getting sick and tired of the sanctimonious hypocrisy that comes from the Liberal Party that campaigns with people like Keith Martin who believes in destroying our public health insurance system and this--
SupplyGovernment Orders
The Deputy Chair
May I remind the hon. member not to use names, but rather riding names and titles.
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
Mr. Chair, that party has the member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca who says that the Canada Health Act should be torn up, that we should have private parallel public systems. Will the minister disavow the views of the member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca with whom he sits in cabinet, who says that we should destroy Canada's health care system? Will he disavow those views right here right now?
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Mr. Chair, the Canada Health Act embodies the values of sharing and caring for each other that Canadians cherish so much.
We will defend the Canada Health Act and we will enforce the Canada Health Act vigorously. It is very important that we do that because the Canada Health Act is about our values as Canadians, our values about looking after each other, our values about not checking someone's credit card before checking someone's pulse. It is important that we do that. This side of the House will defend the Canada Health Act and enforce it.
Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS
Mr. Chair, if only that were true. We know the Prime Minister himself engages in private health care by attending a clinic. That is true and completely factual.
I have a specific question for the minister and it deals specifically with the reinstatement of funding for prostate cancer research. I wrote to him back on August 5, shortly after his appointment.
On Monday a gathering was held in Ottawa, which was put together by the prostate cancer research initiative. As the minister will know, money was taken away from this, the rationale being that there was no specific funding for specific types of cancer. The minister will also know that prostate cancer has the largest mortality rate for males in Canada. Over 19,000 men were diagnosed with prostate cancer in the past year. One in eight men in Canada over the age of 50 will suffer from this terrible affliction.
Stan Hagen, the children and family health minister from the minister's province of British Columbia, announced today that he is suffering from prostate cancer. The minister may know this individual personally. Preston Manning and Allan Rock, his predecessor, are both prostate cancer survivors.
This is a huge problem in the country. Much can be done through proper diet and through proper testing in particular. The most common type of testing is one which is very intrusive and intimidating for many men. However, there is now a test available through blood, the PSA test. I am sure the minister is aware of it.
Will the minister, on behalf of his department, revisit the issue of funding for prostate cancer research and public education on the issue? As with all forms of cancer, early detection is the best way to attack the mortality rate. I would appreciate the minister's response on that issue.
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Mr. Chair, as I said earlier, there was some money for research on prostate cancer. I believe this is a serious issue. I also believe the integrated disease strategy is also a serious issue. We need to work together, collaboratively, across the country on all these issues, be it diabetes or cancer. I understand the importance of the issue.
I cannot obviously speak for the Minister of Finance in terms of the budget. It is coming for next year. I will keep in mind the serious nature of the comments made by the hon. member in this regard.
Robert Thibault LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Health
Mr. Chair, it is a great pleasure for me to participate in the session this evening. I congratulate the opposition for making this the issue of debate tonight, of bringing the minister's estimates forward. We all recognize health care as being the number one concern of Canadians. I presume that is the case with all parties in the House.
A few minutes ago the member from Port Moody referred to the past career of the Minister of Health, indicating that he had been a noted politician in British Columbia, attorney general and premier among others. He was a very successful politician. He spent three years out of politics. We saw him, he was a free agent and we invited him to the big leagues, where he is doing very well. I have great respect for the member from Port Moody and I encourage him to work hard, keep at it, and maybe some day we will invite him to the big leagues, but his chances would be greatly improved if he did not swing at every pitch.
On a more serious note, if we look at what is happening in health care since the minister's arrival, we see nothing but very good news. We see a lot of good news from the government elected in June, with the promise that health care would be the number one priority, that we would have a new era in discussions and negotiations with the provinces and that we would have a fix for health care. We talked about health care for a generation. We have a deal for a decade, which I believe will set the tone for not only this generation but for generations to come.
We are adding a lot of money: $41 billion is being transferred to the province to look at health care over this period. We do that without raising taxes. That is amazing if we look at the last 10 years of the government. We have reduced the debt to such a level that service charges on the national debt alone covers these costs. That is great and I am proud of that because it is sustainable. The greatest concern we have seen from Canadians is the sustainability of health care.
The minister alluded earlier to the confidence that Canadians have in the health care system and in certain instances the lack of confidence they have in it. He pointed to the fact that those who have come in contact with the health care system have had a very favourable impression. Others who have not come in contact necessarily have great apprehension. They have anxiety whether it will be there when they need it and will it be sustainable. We are showing sustainability.
We are looking at five key areas. We agreed with the provinces that in these five key areas everybody would have to show improvement, like eye surgery for our aging population. I remember a time when it was a relative rarity. I could name the people in my community who had cataract surgery. Now it is difficult to name a family that does not have someone who has received cataract surgery and whose lifestyle and quality of life has greatly improved.
Across the street from my mother's house, where I grew up, was a little general store. The elders of the community used to hang around it. I thought they were very old men, but when I think back, they were only 55 or 65. They were fishermen or loggers who had been hurt or who had arthritis. They could not work anymore. Now we fix their eyes or their hips and they play golf until they are 80 and 85. They have a great lifestyle, but that costs money. That creates additional demand on the health care system.
We have said that we have to look at the waiting lists. Everybody expects these services and we have to ensure that we give them in a reasonable time. We said that we would work with the provinces in areas such as eye surgery and cardiac, like bypasses. A generation ago, if one had a heart attack, one did not work again. Now within a very short time, a person who has had a quadruple, triple or double bypass is back at work in a very short period. Again, it creates a lot of demand and costs. However, we have to work on those lists.
Regarding cancer treatment, the member for Central Nova pointed out one type of cancer that is very easily preventable and is quite often curable. It is a question people being diagnosed quickly enough, and we encourage that of course. However, people are waiting for cancer treatments. The anxiety level can be very high for people who have been diagnosed with cancer but who have to wait before they can get their treatments or before they can get their next visit to a specialist, especially in rural areas where I live. We have to bring down those wait times.
Regarding orthopedics, again with the aging population everybody expects and understands that they can have hip replacements or ear implants. I know a lot of people in my community who have been waiting one and two years. The member from Dartmouth pointed out what Nova Scotia has done public health, and it is admirable. I should also point out that what it has done with waiting lists is admirable also, especially in cardiac care. It was a relatively small investment and it reduced the wait lists for cardiac care.
As the minister has agreed, in negotiating with the provinces, if a province like Nova Scotia or any other province has made achievements in one area, it can transfer the money to other priority areas. If they have had achievements in five areas, they still get the money. The money becomes permanent.
We have agreed that we would not just give them the money for short periods. I remember the arguments made by the premiers at the first ministers meeting that we could not have a short term fix, that we could not create a dependency and then pull out, because we cannot send those doctors and nurses back home and we cannot shut down the MRI machines. We have agreed that it would be sustainable funding and that it would continue. We have also agreed that it must be measurable. Progress must be measurable. People must report. The provinces must report.
We have agreed that these are areas of provincial jurisdiction and that the provinces were fully capable of managing their own system, because they were familiar with their needs, and knew how to manage, who to put in charge and how to invest in their hospitals.
We said that we agreed that they could report to their constituents, their voters. These are the same Canadians who elect us, the same Canadians who are the taxpayers at the provincial and federal levels.
I am therefore totally in favour of this asymmetrical federalism, as long as it is not bipolar. All the provinces and all the regions must be included.
It cannot be a bipolar federalism. It must be a federalism that respects the specificities of the Atlantic, of the north, of the west, of Ontario, of Quebec, of other areas. We must be able to negotiate and work so that health care services are improved in accordance with their understanding and their capabilities.
We have also looked at pharmaceuticals.
Robert Thibault Liberal West Nova, NS
Not only for Quebec.
We have also looked at the cost of drugs going up for all provinces, for the territories. How do we handle that? Is it with a national drug strategy, a national drug program, as some have suggested? We did not believe so. I did not believe so. Many people did not believe so. But we saw that there were some areas of improvement and that we could cooperate with the provinces to build toward a national strategy where we would reduce the cost and improve the availability.
We looked at home care and we looked at catastrophic drug costs and we said the same thing. We have some different systems here and there across the country that can be improved on.
We have a great home care system in Nova Scotia. It does not mean that it is perfect. We can continue to work on it. New Brunswick has a model home care system. We continue to work on it at the national level. How do we improve that?
We recognized a long time ago that certain illnesses can create huge demands on families because of the drug costs which can drive a family into poverty. That is what we call catastrophic drug costs. Even if we cannot have a national pharmacare program, we have to repair it. It is our responsibility and our duty. We must work with the provinces to come up with a system that protects families from financial failure due to health concerns.
It has been pointed out very well in this House this evening the necessity for replacing medical practitioners. We are talking about doctors and nurses. In the medical world of today and tomorrow, practitioners can mean other things. We have to have the systems in place to train them. We have to train them in both official languages. We have to use the skills of the immigrants who come with those skill sets. We have to more quickly recognize their credentials so that we can use their skills and bring them into the country and encourage more to come. For those who are already here we can improve our system in that way.
We have agreed that we would put a lot of money into training. We are working with the provinces toward that. In British Columbia and Ontario we are opening two new medical schools, if I am not mistaken, which will certainly assist. In Sudbury a medical school is opening.
We are training nurses and practitioners in isolated communities, nearer to home. If we bring them to the south or if we bring them to the large centres, it is tough to get them back on the farm. It is the problem we have in West Nova. We do not have a lot of farms but we send a lot of doctors to be trained and they do not necessarily come back home. We need them. We need those nurses. We have to look at how we do that.
Services to official language communities is a very important issue. I remember as a 10-year old going to hospital, unable to speak English and being there for ten days. Today, the surgery is done in a day, and we leave. But in those days, I had to spend ten days in our small hospital in Yarmouth without being able to communicate. It was a very traumatic experience.
In rural communities in southwest Nova Scotia, in Cape Breton, elderly people approaching the end of their lives end up in hospital and have to communicate in their second language at a time when they are at their most vulnerable and in greatest need. It becomes very uncomfortable. That is why I am pleased that it was recognized as part of this agreement that official language training for professionals in a minority situation is a priority and that funding is provided for that purpose. I am pleased that all the provinces have agreed and are participating.
I am pleased that we are carrying on. I urge the minister to increase funding and I hope that the work on primary care with community volunteers will continue. This is a Canada-wide network of volunteers working with communities with a view to improve, in communities in a minority situation, the delivery of primary care in French in the provinces outside Quebec and in English in Quebec. These are often remote communities, located far from major urban canters.
I am also very pleased with what we have accomplished with the aboriginal people.
The additional $700 million, that we have been able to provide native and northern communities, will assist in the areas of critical importance. These are the fastest growing communities and populations in our country, and often the only sectors that have actual growth within our communities. Here we have problems like fetal alcohol syndrome, childhood diabetes, and childhood obesity. If we do not make the proper investments, rather than being full contributors, those are populations that are at risk for the future.
I am very pleased with what was accomplished and very proud of the minister.
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Mr. Chair, could I seek the consent of the House to ask a question or two of the kind parliamentary secretary?
SupplyGovernment Orders
The Deputy Chair
There is one 15 minute slot remaining. Three of our colleagues have been waiting since early this evening to speak. I know that the hon. members of the government party have been anxious to hear what these three hon. members have to say. With your leave, we will take an extra five minutes and that will give the three hon. members a chance to speak in the House. The three hon. members are from the same opposition party.
Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON
Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the hon. member from Nova Scotia. It was a heartwarming conversation and it brought tears to my eyes. I must say that as long as this side or that side of the House is going to tell those kinds of stories, they are never going to appreciate the reality on the ground. For every story that members tell about how good the health care system is, I have been in practice for 20 years and I have 100 stories to every one of theirs.
Let me set the mood tonight with the latest story of a constituent of mine from Cambridge. I am speaking for the thousands and thousands of residents in my community of Cambridge who do not have doctors. The latest story that is far more touching than the one we just heard is about a 19-year-old who went to a walk-in clinic because he does not have a family doctor. He was misdiagnosed and, as a result, prescribed the wrong medication. When he became addicted to the medication, and it was a problem for the health care people, they fired him. He attempted suicide on Friday. Frankly, the reality is that we do not have enough doctors. Members can tell all the stories they want. There are people dying without doctors.
The other point I want to make is that after 10 years of a majority government, the Liberals are still talking about the problems. Not only do we lack doctors which is risking lives, but the Chamber of Commerce in my riding used to be asked when companies wanted to move into the riding, “Do you have the land and the skilled workers?” Today it is being asked if it has the medical doctors.
I would like to ask the minister, is he feeling pressure from the medical community to not bring more doctors on board and keep the numbers low so Canadians do not have the choice--
Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON
It is not a silly question. I think the attitude of this side of the House is reflective of our health care problems.
Is the medical community pressuring the minister and if not, why do we not have processes in place?
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Mr. Chair, I was able to attend the CMA annual general meeting several months ago shortly after I became the minister. In fact, one of the things it said to me was that many doctors were tired and were going to retire. We need more doctors. We need more international medical graduates, who are already here, to be integrated into the system. That is absolutely opposite to what the hon. member thinks.
Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON
Mr. Chair, if in fact the medical profession is not trying to monopolize the situation, is the Minister of Health willing to accept the qualifications of professionals like physiotherapists, nurse practitioners and chiropractors to help fill this void immediately?
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Mr. Chair, those are issues, as the member well knows, that are dealt with by the provincial jurisdictions. I am happy to coordinate these issues with them, but the real debate and dialogue has to happen with those jurisdictions.
The hon. member is raising an issue that was raised by his colleagues in the standing committee with respect to chiropractors. I have an open mind. I think we should be carrying on this dialogue across the country rather than in a partisan kind of fashion.
Gary Goodyear Conservative Cambridge, ON
Mr. Chair, one of the first questions I asked in the House was whether the minister was willing to start an accreditation process for the foreign trained doctors that are in our country. The answer I received from his representative was they were meeting with his colleagues in a few weeks. I would like to know, did he meet with those people and what was the outcome of that meeting?