Debates of Feb. 13th, 2004

Government Contracts

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, in addition to the very broad terms for the public inquiry, the Prime Minister has already asked the President of the Treasury Board to examine into all matters related to crown corporations. As members of the House will know, the President of the Treasury Board is a very determined individual.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we will find out about that.

Alfonso Gagliano is not the only high profile Liberal to come under the scrutiny of the Auditor General. The Auditor General also rips Canada Post for its role in the Liberal Party's dash for taxpayers' cash.

If Gagliano was fired for cause, my question is, why are there no consequences at all for André Ouellet, the head hack at Canada Post?

[Stephen Owen, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, as we have been saying throughout this week, we are putting in place disciplined processes to come to grips with whoever may be culpable or be responsible for this mismanagement of public funds.

We are not going to determine that in the House. The appropriate place to determine responsibility, guilt, innocence and the ability to recover money is in the disciplined processes that have been established.

Any evidence against these gentlemen or anybody else should be brought to the public inquiry for people to give evidence under oath. They can also go to the public accounts committee, which is already sitting and looking into these matters. That is where it should rest.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the government was very quick to pull the trigger on Gagliano, which we applaud, but why has it not done the same with André Ouellet? All the government has to do is look in the Auditor General's report. It is very clear.

André Ouellet ran the Liberal Party in Quebec for many years. He was even public works minister for a while. Now he is up to his ears in this scandal at Canada Post. If Gagliano was canned for his role in all of this, why is André Ouellet still pulling down $300,000 a year at Canada Post?

[Stan Keyes, Liberal, Minister of National Revenue and Minister of State (Sport)]

Mr. Speaker, as the minister responsible for Canada Post, I can assure the hon. member that it has been made clear by the Prime Minister that whether it is André Ouellet or any other lead in any crown corporation with the Government of Canada, they will be appearing before the public accounts committee or they will be called before the public inquiry. And they have no option. They must appear.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister swore with his hand on his heart that the public had the right to know how long he had known that confidence in him was at stake. He even solemnly declared that he became fully aware just this week, with the Auditor General's report, of the extent of the sponsorship scandal.

How can the Prime Minister, who was aware of the sponsorship scandal since February 2002 at least, as a letter that the Liberal Party policy chair sent him clearly shows, think today that he deserves—

[The Deputy Speaker]

I regret to interrupt the hon. member, but her time is up. The hon. Minister of Finance.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, to repeat, the Prime Minister said yesterday that the gravity of the situation, going beyond merely administrative matters, began to emerge in the early part of 2002. That is when the letter in question was written, in February, I believe. The Groupaction matter was referred to the Auditor General in March. She began her investigation in April. She completed and reported the investigation in May and then she proceeded to her larger examination. Obviously this matter has been pursued very assiduously since then.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in February 2002, Mr. Maharaj indicated in his letter to the Prime Minister that funds from the sponsorship program had been diverted for partisan reasons through communications firms associated with the Liberal Party of Canada.

Will the minister admit that the letter is quite clear about the extent of the sponsorship scandal and that, as a result, his Prime Minister knew about it since February 2002 at least, but he did nothing? So much for confidence.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, indeed, in the early part of 2002 the government began to take the decisive action that was required. That included the reference to the Auditor General. She conducted her inquiry in April and May. She reported in May.

In May she indicated she would go further, referring some matters to the RCMP and conducting a government-wide examination of sponsorship and advertising issues. The Government of Canada cooperated every step of the way with the Auditor General to make sure that she could do her job properly.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, a LPC national chair confirmed, in his letter of February 2002 to the current Prime Minister, that already in December 2001, the party was talking of nothing but the sponsorship program and that he had received countless e-mail messages condemning the diversion of public funds to communications firms with ties to the Liberal Party.

How can the Prime Minister continue to maintain that he was completely unaware of this problem when the LPC hierarchy at all levels could talk of nothing else?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, beginning with the work of the Auditor General that I have referred to earlier, there was additional action taken at the time. As the hon. gentleman will recall, the program was frozen. The private agencies were fired. The cases were referred to the RCMP. There was full, ongoing disclosure made to the Auditor General. Forensic experts were called in. The no-value flowthroughs to the crown corporations were stopped. We yanked some $3 million back from many of the impugned firms.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, how can the Prime Minister continue to maintain that he knew nothing about the sponsorship scandal, when even the Minister of Finance has just told us everything his party did?

This is outrageous, and the Prime Minister must tell us what he knew and when he became aware of it.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister indicated that the fact that this matter went beyond mere administrative complaints or problems was coming to everybody's attention in the early months of 2002. The letter from Mr. Maharaj was part of that, as were the other public stories that were circulating.

The decisive information became available when the Auditor General was called in by the government. She then began to reveal the magnitude of scope of the issue, and decisive action--

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member for Winnipeg--Transcona.

Lobbyists

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, they say that breaking up is hard to do. It has been an emotional week for everyone: Paul and Jean, Ken and Barbie. And I think that Ken and Barbie managed to break up with more dignity than the Prime Minister and the former prime minister.

I am more concerned, as we all should be, with the future to some degree. I want to ask the Minister of Finance about the possibility of future scandals as a result of the increasingly incestuous relationship between corporate lobbyists and the Prime Minister's Office.

I wonder if the Minister of Finance could tell us what the government is going to do about all the corporate lobbyists in the Prime Minister's Office. Is it not time that they hit the road, so to speak, so we do not have to worry about them being paid off in the future?

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister indicated earlier this week, as he has throughout his political career, that he expects all of those who are associated with him to abide by the highest possible standards and we will all do our best to live up to those standards.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, we do not know what those standards are because there are no standards with respect to how corporate lobbyists ought to relate to the Prime Minister's Office. They go in and out on a regular basis. It is like a revolving door. This is a cause for concern. The rules that apply to former civil servants do not seem to apply to corporate lobbyists.

I am asking the Minister of Finance, is he not concerned about this? Because if he is not, he should be. Will the government provide some rules for how these people should conduct themselves? Just telling us they are a bunch of great guys is not enough.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, there are indeed codes of conduct that need to be adhered to. If the hon. gentleman has a specific example to give me or a specific complaint that he would like me to follow up, I undertake that I will do that.

Government Contracts

[Rahim Jaffer, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we now learn that the sponsorship scandal continues to spread throughout the whole government. We have learned that companies involved in the scam have given money for the election campaigns of the health minister and the government House leader.

I want to know, in the spirit of openness and transparency, whether the Prime Minister will suspend these cabinet ministers during the public inquiry?

[Stephen Owen, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, donations to political parties and to political candidates are made on all sides of the House.

What the government has done, through its recent political financing legislation, is to significantly reduce almost to nothing the amount that corporate interests can give to political financing. Those donations are a matter of public record for members of all parties. That does not necessarily connect it to money that comes out of the sponsorship program.

However, if people have--

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member for Edmonton—Strathcona.

[Rahim Jaffer, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Prime Minister said the real question was, what happened to the people who received the money? Some of those people are still sitting in his cabinet. Some of their campaigns received money from those sleazy Liberal ad firms.

Will the Prime Minister take action against his members or ministers who received this money, that was stolen from the public, through this scandal and funneled through their campaigns? Yes or no.

[Stephen Owen, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, this is going to a very low level of reasonableness. No connection has been shown between donations given to members of this party and sponsorship moneys.

If there is evidence of that, let us bring it forth to the inquiry. Let us give under oath the evidence we have. Let us have it looked at carefully. If there is evidence of that, bring it forward. That is why we have set up these processes. Let us get to the truth.

[Diane Ablonczy, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in 2000 the Liberals told Parliament the sponsorship program was managed with prudence and probity. That was a crock.

The Auditor General found that Parliament was misinformed about how the program was being managed. The Liberal minister signed a false report, misled Parliament, and was clearly in contempt of the House.

The Liberals have had the Auditor General's findings for months, but only now do they suddenly pledge to hold wrongdoers accountable. Why did it take a wave of public outrage for them to spring into action?