Debates of March 30th, 2004

The Budget

[An hon. member]

Caution. He is swearing.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Order, please. Resuming debate. The hon. member for Mercier.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will be continuing the speech by my colleague from Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques because he is expressing anger that all members of the House will encounter wherever they go. In all the years I have been a member of this House, I have never seen or heard the public so frustrated.

This budget, which followed a throne speech that spoke of vision, change and renewal, is disturbing and disappointing. There are only crumbs for people whose needs are great. In fact, this budget continues the typical budgetary policy of the Liberals, which is to use the surplus to pay down debt. Their vision is eliminating the debt.

Poverty, health problems, problems experienced by young people who want to continue their education, problems related to a lack of income due to job loss, the problems of families who want to have children and raise them are not important. What matters is lowering the debt at a time when Canada is already boasting about having the lowest debt of all the G-7 countries, after recently beating Great Britain. This is truly shameful.

I want to stress the point my colleague made at the end of his speech about the employment insurance fund surplus. This $45 billion surplus comes from employment insurance contributions made over the years by low and middle income earners.

Now, workers making over $42,000 or $43,000 do not pay contributions on earnings over and above that amount. However, workers who earn more than $2,500 must contribute and often—almost always—they are unable to access the benefits they need when they lose their job. They never see that money again. Often, they are unable to use tax credits because they do not pay taxes.

This situation is truly scandalous. Honestly, I think that few countries could have implemented such a policy, except those where people do not have direct contact with their government, as is the case in this federation.

Today, we will see what kind of budget the Quebec government will table. One thing is certain, expectations about equalization were cruelly dashed. There is a more than $1.4 billion difference between the calculated needs and the amount the federal government included in its so-called equalization reform. This is a needs-based calculation, not pure fantasy.

The budget before us includes nothing, or almost nothing, for low-income families. I say almost, because of the learning bonds, among others.

The government bragged about these learning bonds, but we can only imagine. We are told these will be available for children born after January 1, 2004. Over 18 years, they may receive up to $2,000. Is it reasonable to think that a provision like that is going to help the next generation study and that this will ease the plight of people with low to middle incomes? No.

In the sector that I share with my colleague from Trois-Rivières, I would like to give an example that illustrates the huge distance, the gulf, the ocean between what the Prime Minister says and what he does. I am talking about international assistance.

The Prime Minister wanted to be an example of modernity and sensitivity to the poor—let us call them that, people from developing countries—by saying that he would increase international assistance considerably, advertising this everywhere he went. He even invited singer Bono to come celebrate. However, I believe Bono will be celebrating the fact that Paul Martin does not keep his promises. The only thing—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The Prime Minister cannot be referred to by name. The hon. member fopr Mercier is an experienced member of this House. I would therefore ask her to be more careful.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, thank you for the reminder. You will understand that it is the result of my strong feelings on this.

The present Prime Minister was delighted to count on Bono's presence, but now Bono will be keeping tabs on him. The only thing in this budget about international assistance is about continuing the commitment of the previous Prime MInister, whom I can call by his name since he is no longer in this House. Jean Chrétien committed to an 8% increase in international assistance.

The fact that the budget for this is a mere 8% for 2004-05 illustrates that this government is nothing but a continuation of the last, not any kind of renewal or new hope. Quite simply, the present government is devoid, not only of information, but also of sensitivity toward people's needs. It is not enough to seem to be attentive to needs; there must be openness as well.

With this budget and the again predicted but unexpressed surplus, there is no way the government could not have made the effort to share the wealth with those in the greatest need. These are legion, not only in my region, but all over Quebec and Canada.

The Bloc Quebecois has made the expression “hidden surplus” a popular phrase. We are not the only ones speaking out about them. The Conference Board of Canada, a most non-sovereignist body and one with little Quebec connection, has estimated the 2003 to 2006 surplus at $24 billion.

I began with a reference to how angry people are. Throughout this time allocated to speeches on the budget, one colleague after another has spoken about the causes of that anger, and I personally am anxious for an election so people can direct that anger.

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make the case today that the budget is like a crafted jewel. Unlike the comments of the hon. member--

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

A crappy jewel?

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

A crafted jewel. I would like a few minutes to make this case. We are unlike the coalition of the antis over there. I have listened to the speeches and Canadians have to be--

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

I am an uncle not an auntie.

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

That is anti, the coalition of the antis; anti-everything. There is $150 billion worth of program spending here for nearly every sector of the economy. I have been listening to opposition members this morning and they are just anti.

I would like to try to make the case why I think the budget is like a crafted jewel. I want to begin by referring to a book called The Ingenuity Gap written by Thomas Homer-Dixon. This book was written a couple of years ago by I believe one of our finest minds in Canada. He makes the case in his book, The Ingenuity Gap , that the system over the last 20 years of qualifying people to get into university, whether it be business school or law school, has been decided by the SAT exams primarily.

The way those SAT exams are designed tends to marginalize people with creative thinking. They tend to favour people who have a high degree of logic in their thinking. As a result, over the last 20 years we have a lot of people who are in influential positions, whether it be in business or in government, who do not have a lot of creativity. In fact, a lot of them even shun the creative process.

As a result, when creative thinking comes to leadership, because they do not feel comfortable with it they tend to put it aside. As a result, we have a lot of people in key positions, in government, in business, in running institutions, who tend to be anti-ingenuity. The reason that is a problem today is that the world is moving so fast and decisions need to be taken so quickly and the coping mechanisms to react to decisions that need to be made quickly are just not there. We just do not cope. We do not make good decisions, by and large.

The reason I say the budget is like a crafted jewel is because it is a celebration and a recognition that men and women with ingenuity is where we will put the resources of the treasury of this country.

First, let us talk about the fiscal prudence that is in the budget, the fiscal prudence that is celebrated around the world. We are now respected because of the fiscal management. This is just not a debatable point. By being managers over the last 10 years, taking a country that had incredible deficit challenges to a point where the treasury now, because that deficit has been eliminated, is saving Canadians $115 million a day just in interest savings.

What do those low interest rates do? Nothing is more important to the one million men and women who own and operate small businesses. They tend to be the source of creativity and ingenuity. Nothing is more important for a small business man or woman than to have access to cheap capital or low interest loans. Because of the fiscal responsibility that we have been on for the last little while and that we continue to be on with the new Minister of Finance, we are creating an environment where all that ingenuity, which is critical for job creation, which is critical for new products and new services, can flourish.

Anyone who is fair-minded in their assessment and judgment will realize that, first and foremost, the biggest winners in this budget are the one million small business men and women across Canada. Ingenuity is critical for these individuals. I am not knocking major, larger, multinational corporations, but most of them do not have an environment where ingenuity can flourish. This budget states that small business is our cornerstone.

Second, and again making the case that this budget is a crafted jewel, I have to look at what it will do for young families. In the last little while, it has been an amazing experience for people to enter the housing market and get mortgage rates on a home at 3.5% or 4%. This is a most amazing period in time. There is nothing more important than having access to such low mortgage rates. This is another area in building confidence, especially with younger families right across the country. This is another factor in this budget equation that causes me to think that this budget is a crafted jewel.

Let me move into various sectors of the economy.

The commitment in this budget to the automobile sector is almost unprecedented. There are over 250,000 families in southern Ontario. The government's commitment and respect, and support for the auto sector affects the lives and stability of probably one million people. This budget deals with the automobile sector in a way that cannot be denied. I have heard from several people in the automobile sector and they are absolutely delighted with the commitment that the Minister of Finance has made toward that sector. I am blessed here today to have colleagues from Windsor, Brantford, and Thunder Bay, whose influence was felt by the Minister of Finance.

Low interest rates are a stimulus for the automobile sector. When have we ever seen the cost of automobiles so low? When have we ever seen interest payments so low? Some manufacturers have told us that the margins they are making right now are the most disciplined they have ever been during their manufacturing lifetime.

The tourism sector is now on a rebound because of the government's fiscal prudence and because of its stimulus and support to the industry in Canada. The whole reawakening of the fact that tourism now represents 14% of the total jobs created in this country is another factor in this budget that causes me to believe it is like a crafted jewel.

I want to talk about some of those areas in the budget that deal with people who are in pain and in real need because ultimately they are the reason why we are all in the House of Commons. We do not come to this House for any other reason than to speak for those who do not have a voice.

We respect the people who have lobbyists, that have a voice and do really well in society. We do not punish achievers on this side of the House unlike my opponents in the NDP.

Those members have this thought process that I have been trying for years to change. We do not need to punish achievers. We need all the achievers in the country that we can find because they generate jobs and their risk taking is very important for stimulating the economy.

[An hon. member]

Their taxes are very low.

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

The member from the New Democratic Party said that leaders in this country who achieve and who accomplish pay lower taxes.

I personally have no problem. He has just made the very point that I want to make. I believe we should reward our achievers. I have never believed, as the NDP do, that we should punish people because they work hard and they achieve. I just never bought that philosophy and I have been elected four times over NDPers who tried every election to knock me because I said I wanted to reward achievers.

We will go at it one more time with Mr. Layton, and I can use his name because he is not in the House. I have watched Jack Layton day in and day out, year after year. He gets this big thrill in trying to punish achievers. The country needs all the achievers that we can find. I will never be caught talking about punishing achievers.

I want to make the point that the real essence of why we come to the House, and it is a great trust and honour to be here, is to speak for those people who do not have a voice and those people who are in real pain.

The budget deals with people in pain from nearly every part of the community. This is what drives me nuts about NDP members, that even though it is written here, and there is $150 billion worth of program spending, they just do not want to admit what goes on in terms of things that are done in the whole area of health.

It was an amazing thing the other day. The acting leader of the NDP stood up and asked the minister, how come he did not do anything in the budget for health care? The Minister of Finance stood up in response and said that, in fact, Mr. Romanow said very fine and positive things about the budget.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Not true.

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

It is absolutely true.

In terms of early child care, we will never forget the former minister of human resources development. One of her great legacies in the House of Commons is something no one can ever take away from her and that is the work she did in terms of early child care over the years. I salute her. It has just been amazing.

This is again speaking for people who are in pain. In the end, the real inner joy we get from serving in the House is being able to be a voice and do something for those who do not have a voice, and do not have the resources to speak for their cause, their child or destitute farm. That is the real thrill and the budget passes all of those tests.

I will remind people again of how last Monday, through the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, there was a billion dollar announcement made in western Canada to help that sector. Again, this is speaking for people in pain.

We have maintained, in the budget, the trajectory that the former minister for CIDA put us on. It was a trajectory of ensuring that we do not just speak for those in pain in our country, but that we reach out to countries around the world that are in pain.

[An hon. member]

The homeless too.

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I believe in and my colleague has reminded me about affordable housing. This is another thing that drives me crazy about my future opponent, Jack Layton. He made the statement that the government has done nothing for affordable housing. In the GTA alone, we have averaged $273 million a year for the last 10 years. That to me is a lot of money. That is separate and apart from the shelter money that we supply for the homeless.

We do not have an unlimited treasury here and I believe that there has to be a balance. If we ask a young person or a small business man or woman today if they would rather have a business loan at 5% or a mortgage at 3.5%, but to do that would mean that we would not be able to satisfy every need, that we would have to use balance, I bet that 9 out of 10 Canadians are going to say that they like the fiscal direction and the financial plan that the government is on.

That is why I say that this budget is like a crafted jewel because it has put most of the opportunity into entrepreneurship across this country. Our job growth, our job capacity, our domestic and international opportunities, and our future communities rest with small business men and women. That is my case.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I have question for the member for Toronto--Danforth. I was reading the budget yesterday en route here and noted that 45% of the federal government's revenue comes from personal income tax.

I wonder if the member for Toronto--Danforth would be able to provide us with the information--because it was not contained in the budget documents, it may be buried somewhere but I could not find it--as to what percentage of the federal budget is made up of corporate income taxes in this country?

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that is an excellent question.

The greater portion of moneys we receive in this country is through personal income taxes. We all know that and we are all constantly trying to refine that area of the personal income tax system; however, the member is referring to the fact that corporations are not paying as much tax. I believe that is the point that the member is trying to make.

I am absolutely dumbfounded at the NDP opposition, and I told this to Jack. I said, “Jack, you are right off track on this”, because tax deductions for the one million small business men and women in this country who create almost 85% of the jobs is a good thing. The top 150 corporations in this country pay very little tax. In fact, they are the ones that we should be reviewing in terms of their tax payable, but to make a blanket statement as Jack Layton has said repeatedly, that we should not be giving tax preferences to small business men and women, is the wrong tack to take.

It goes to my point about rewarding achievers. The greatest achievers in this country are small business men and women, and to deny them a better tax system, which is what Jack Layton is always saying, I philosophically disagree.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I feel that I have to come to the defence of my Liberal colleague, believe it or not.

I am shocked that some people in Canada have yet to understand that in order for people to earn personal income, in many cases they work at those corporations. If the corporations are taxed too heavily, they will not stay in this country. The investment that is necessary to start those corporations can flow anywhere in the world. They can go to wherever they can get the best tax treatment.

My NDP colleague tries to tar corporations as somehow being bad and therefore they should pay much higher taxes but in the end, that is self-defeating. If we did that, the corporations would leave and tens of thousands of people would be without jobs. They would not have jobs and would not pay personal income tax.

Would my friend acknowledge that?

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have tried repeatedly to educate my NDP opponent, Jack Layton, on the whole issue of taxes. On the notion of punishing achievers, whether they be small businesses or even large businesses that are paying Canadians good solid union wages, if all of a sudden we become such a persecutor of those people that are paying good solid union wages, those people are going to end up in countries where people get ridiculously low wages.

Jack Layton has to start cheerleading business. He has to start cheerleading those people that are creating jobs in this country, especially the small business men and women and especially those corporations that have good environmental standards and that pay good solid union wages. The day that this country slips into punishing achievers, that is the day when our fiscal framework will go right into the toilet.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, for the record because it was never read in, 46% of federal income tax now comes through personal income tax and the amount from corporations is a meagre 12.5%. I am old enough to remember when there was a royal commission on taxation in this country and at that time it was approximately fifty-fifty between corporate and personal income tax. We can see what has happened in the interim.

When the member for Toronto—Danforth talks about hard work and achievers, let us think about working people who work hard and are being--

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

They work in those companies.

[Dick Proctor, NDP, Palliser, SK]

Those small business companies that pay those high union wages, yes of course they do.

We need to be aware that there are a lot of people working extremely hard in this country who are paying what they feel is too much tax. They would like some of that tax burden to be shared with the corporations that are doing extremely well.

[Dennis Mills, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, first of all, I agree with the member that the personal income tax system is flawed and it needs reform. I have been saying that for 15 years. I have talked about my concept of a single tax system until I am blue in the face.

There is a way to really get this country going, and the NDP are going to freak out when I say this. We have the GST in place. The member acknowledged it is only $12 billion that we get from all businesses. As well there is the paper burden and all the duplication. I would abolish the federal income tax rate. If we abolished the federal income tax rate for the millions of small business men and women, imagine the paper burden that would vanish. Imagine the efficiencies that we could create.

Think of the international investment that would flow into this country for small businessmen and women. It would be incredible. That would drive interest rates down because the more capital there is in a market to rent, the cheaper it is.

We would have an investment climate where we celebrated men and women of ingenuity, men and women of creativity. I am going to repeat it until I am blue in the face. The one million small business men and women in this country drive our economy. They represent 85% of the jobs. The NDP has to stop talking about punishing the achievers.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to reflect back to the comment by my colleague from Toronto--Danforth. He said that he was dumbfounded. There was certainly a true representation of that in his last comments.

Nowhere on God's green earth have the New Democratic members or the party ever said that there should not be a fair taxation system. Nowhere have we said that business should have to pay everything. What we ask for is a fair taxation system. When everyday ordinary people are bearing the brunt of things and a member across the way is saying to get rid of all the taxes for all the businesses, that it will make things so much better, that is the most ridiculous position I have ever heard.