House of Commons Hansard #35 of the 37th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was process.

Topics

Public Servants Disclosure Protection ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Public Servants Disclosure Protection ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.

Public Servants Disclosure Protection ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Public Servants Disclosure Protection ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Public Servants Disclosure Protection ActGovernment Orders

12:30 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Pursuant to Standing Order 45, the division stands deferred until Monday, April 19 at the ordinary hour of daily adjournment.

Public Servants Disclosure Protection ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Mr. Speaker, I believe that if you were to seek it you would find consent to delay the vote on the motion until Tuesday, April 20 at the end of government business.

Public Servants Disclosure Protection ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Does the House give its consent?

Public Servants Disclosure Protection ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Public Servants Disclosure Protection ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Liberal

Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON

Mr. Speaker, if you were to seek it, I believe you would find there is unanimous consent to call it 1:30 p.m. and proceed now to private members' business.

Public Servants Disclosure Protection ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Is that agreed?

Public Servants Disclosure Protection ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Public Servants Disclosure Protection ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

It being 1:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's Order Paper.

The House resumed from February 19 consideration of the motion that Bill C-246, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (child adoption expenses), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

12:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Rick Casson Canadian Alliance Lethbridge, AB

Mr. Speaker, it is good to be able to speak to Bill C-246 today. This could be the last hour of sitting of the House in this Parliament if some of the rumours we have heard are true, and I think this legislation is a pretty good way to finish it off, because the member for Prince George--Peace River has brought forward a critical issue that I think should be addressed.

Hopefully this issue will get to the point where it can have a real public hearing and eventually get support from the government and from all members of the House.

As members of Parliament we sometimes get involved with people who are going through adoption issues, particularly people who are trying to bring in children from other countries. A recent case in my riding involved a family that was ready to bring over a young child from Haiti. When all the trouble happened in Haiti, all of the plans went sideways. The family members were absolutely devastated to think that all their plans might go astray. We worked with them to try to solve the problem.

I know of other situations, one in my own family. My wife is adopted. She was adopted by a wonderful, loving family and it is still that way. For a baby to have the opportunity of being taken into a loving family is a great thing and I think it would be wise for any government to facilitate that process as much as it can.

If it is an issue of expense that is stopping families from seeking out the adoption route to find a child to bring into their home to raise as their own, then that issue should be addressed. That is what the member is trying to do with his bill. He wants to make sure that this problem, this one issue, is dealt with.

I know of other young people who for years have been applying to adopt. It is not the financial aspect that has stopped them, and it is heartbreaking. They are willing, they are looking for a child in their lives, and they have the ability, the means, and the love to raise a child in their home, but either they cannot get the process started or they cannot get through it. I know that for some it takes many years. It truly is a blessing when it does finally happen.

The issue here is that here are at least 20,000 young children in Canada who are under the care of the government. That says something in itself. I would bet there are that many families in this country that would willingly adopt those young people, take them into their homes and give them a good start in life.

Two thousand adoptions take place in Canada annually, yet there are 20,000 children under the care of the government. When we see those kinds of numbers we have to realize that we should be moving toward bringing in legislation or regulations that would allow for the smooth transition of those children into these families.

The issue of expense is another matter. The expenses involved to deal with adoption are about $9,000 or $10,000, which is a substantial amount of money. For many families that would be prohibitive and would stop them from moving forward. However, if there were a section in the tax laws of this country that would allow a tax rebate or a tax deduction for that expense, it would help, just to add to the mix of things we need to do to make adoption happen on a more regular basis. Certainly we have to be very careful that the families chosen for young people to go into are the types of families that will raise them in the proper manner. In the vast majority, that is the case.

Even here in Canada, in the Province of Quebec, there is a law like the one the member is proposing. People are allowed to deduct a maximum of $6,000. In the United States, the deduction is $10,000. So we have right here in Canada one province that recognizes the need and the value of this type of situation. Our neighbours to the south have also taken that step. They will help facilitate families coming together. They will facilitate families having the option of choosing a child they want to bring into their families and make it as easy as possible.

I think this is timely. Hopefully the bill can go forward at some time. I know that the member for Prince George--Peace River has been working on this for an extremely long time. When I looked back at one of his private member's bills that he brought forward on another issue, I noted that it did very well once it got to the House and proceeded through the system.

Many times we feel that the hard work we put into these bills it is not worth it, but it is, not only because it could effect change in the end but also because it brings an issue to the floor of the House. Canadians can sit in on the debate and hear the different sides of the debate in the House. I am not sure that we are going to get it today; I think the debate is all going to come from one side of the House, but that is fine. The government will have to respond at some point. Members will have to vote on whether they think this is a good idea or not.

As we look at the whole issue of adoption, there is another statistic. There are 2,000 children adopted from outside the country and brought into Canada. We see some of the horrific pictures of what is going on in different parts of the world and the children always seem to be the ones who are hurt. There are orphans all around the world who need help.

Anything that would allow families to work faster to bring some of these children to Canada and raise them as their own and give them the opportunities, privileges and responsibilities that we as Canadians have is an avenue that we should explore at all costs.

I am completely in favour of the member's initiative. I know from experience about some of the emotion and stress that go along with seeking to adopt, with being accepted in a tentative manner, with families, husbands and wives who visit children and then are rejected for some reason. It is an absolutely heart-wrenching emotional experience. It tears at people when they so badly want a child, cannot have one of their own for whatever reason, and are stopped for various reasons or various blocks get in their way.

I fully support what the member is doing. I know that it perhaps does not fit tight with our party's tax plan, because our party still firmly believes in broad based relief for all families, which would give them options for many things in their lives, for how to spend their money and how to raise their children, but I think this initiative is worthy of our consideration. It is certainly worthy of the support of the government. From what I understood in debate earlier, it does not look like that going to happen and I hope Canadians are watching.

For Canadians who have been involved in adoption issues and have not been able to fulfill their dreams of adopting a child, and if for any reason finances were the problem, they should phone their member of Parliament and phone the government to let them know that they support this initiative and they want members to vote for it.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

12:45 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Bill Casey Progressive Conservative Cumberland—Colchester, NS

Mr. Speaker, I am certainly pleased to participate in the debate today.

I am surprised at how much response I have had in my own riding in support of Bill C-246. Twenty-three constituents have contacted me directly in the last few weeks. It is obviously a very worthy bill and I will be supporting it. I compliment the member for Prince George—Peace River for bringing the bill forward.

In my discussions with the people who have called me, I have been amazed to learn how much it costs to go through the adoption process, the difficulties one encounters and the endurance one needs to complete the adoption process. An adoption within the country could cost between $10,000 and $15,000. Internationally it could cost $20,000 to $30,000 or more.

It is not only the legal fees, the psychological studies and the travel that is involved, but it is the work that people have to go through. There is also the dedication and the time away from work. As one person said to me, it was a true test of endurance to go through the process. Certainly the parents are well rewarded.

It is an entirely legitimate request to have this deduction allowed. I will certainly be supporting the bill. I hope my party and all members will support Bill C-246.

This morning I called the parents of an adopted child before making these remarks. I talked with Roy Berliner from Truro. He and his wife Cathy have adopted two Chinese babies, Jasmine and Sascha. He described the problems and the challenges they went through in the adoption process. It was incredible. It cost an incredible amount of money. It is an incredible sacrifice of time and effort. However, they are so gratified with the outcome of having these two wonderful little girls with them now that it has made it all worthwhile. Still the tax deduction could help.

Mr. Berliner was wondering if the deduction could be retroactive. Hopefully we will get it through for the future, but it would be difficult to make it retroactive.

Mr. and Mrs. Berliner adopted Jasmine and Sascha, one in 2000 and one in 2003. The process is that people first apply, then go through a home study to be certified as qualified parents. Then they have to obtain an order for permission from the province of Nova Scotia. They had to contact a facilitator in China and travel back and forth. There is documentation, translation, filing fees at the China desk and in Canada. Finally, after all this process, there is a proposal that comes forth and then they actually start the application to bring the babies back to Canada.

The process is extremely expensive. It is extremely time consuming. The process requires a great deal of dedication on behalf of the prospective parents.

I understand there are 400 children in Nova Scotia from China. That number surprised me, but that is the number that I understand are currently residing in Nova Scotia.

On behalf of the Berliners and all of my constituents who have gone through the adoption process and all of the future parents that will go through the adoption process, I encourage all members to vote for the bill. Let us bring this very reasonable tax deduction into force.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak in favour of Bill C-246. I think a previous representative of the NDP, the member for Windsor—St. Clair, also expressed his support. He is a lawyer who practised family law for a great number of years and added some interesting insights to the bill. He certainly raised it with our caucus which agreed that this type of gesture or tax relief, to acknowledge the costs that adoptive parents face, should be recognized in our tax system.

For one simple reason, it is an equality issue in a sense because those parents who have children biologically, obviously many of their costs are picked up and subsidized by Canadian taxpayers through our medical system and through the social services that we provide for parents through hospitals. The many substantial costs incurred by parents who are adopting are not recognized in the same way. We want to treat adoptive parents with the same recognition and appreciation as we support parents who have their children biologically.

It is only common sense that we should also recognize that many of those who do adopt, and who want children, have already spent a great deal of money in attempts to have children biologically through medical interventions et cetera. It can add up to a great cost.

By the time adoptive parents actually do take the final step and adopt, in all likelihood it has been a great cash outlay even by the time they reach that point.

It is worth noting that this tax relief would not only be for parents who were adopting babies, it would also extend to families who were adopting family members, for example, nieces, nephews or children of friends who may have died in a tragedy and who need a family unit to attach to.

There was a recent case of an earthquake in Egypt where constituents of my colleague from Windsor—St. Clair became involved. The earthquake in Egypt killed both parents leaving three children in the family who were in their mid-teens, in late adolescence. The Canadian relatives took measures to provide a home for the orphaned older children.

One can imagine the costs associated with all of that. The financial burden for this Canadian family of goodwill, to open their home to these orphaned children as a result of that tragic event in another country, is clearly something that most Canadians would be willing to recognize and accommodate by providing some tax relief. As these families reach out in often traumatic situations, this is something that society should recognize and applaud.

Adoption is expensive. I will not draw this out by repeating the member who just spoke. It is expensive enough to adopt a child domestically within Canada but there is also overseas adoption. All of us as members of Parliament have probably tried to intervene on behalf of parents who were seeking to adopt children overseas. China is a common source. There are horrendous costs. We are talking sometimes $30,000 and $40,000 by the time the child is brought to Canada and becomes a member of the family. If we assist families with those horrendous costs, I think it is incumbent upon us to do so.

I, too, compliment the member from Prince George for a very worthy piece of legislation and for doing something that would be of benefit to the constituents who I represent, and to all Canadians. It is a fitting way to end the week on such a positive note. My compliments to the member and he has the enthusiastic support of the members of our caucus.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

April 2nd, 2004 / 12:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dave Chatters Canadian Alliance Athabasca, AB

Mr. Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to support my colleague from Prince George--Peace River on his private member's bill. I think it is a worthwhile cause.

As my colleague from Lethbridge suggested, it is perhaps not often that our party advocates this kind of piecemeal tax relief, but on the other hand, this particular bill fits very well with our longstanding commitment of supporting families and doing what we can to help families.

Certainly, we support adoption and helping parents who, because of rising infertility rates or whatever the reasons might be, are not able to have a family of their own, and choose to adopt. There is all kind of evidence and studies to show that a child growing up in a strong, loving environment produces the best results, not only for the child, but for society in general.

I am a parent and know well the joy and pride that we take as parents in raising children, watching them succeed, and turning out well and being contributing members of society. It is appropriate that we, as a government, support as many children as possible, be it children in Canada or children from around the world, by taking them out of sometimes very difficult and unproductive circumstances and putting them into loving families. Anything we can do to help that happen must be positive.

It is just sheer coincidence that there happens to be a lengthy article today in the Ottawa Citizen dealing with this issue. The Ontario Liberal government is moving to increase the number of Ontario orphaned and abandoned children being adopted. Its goal is to increase crown ward adoptions by 15%.

Quite frankly, the federal Liberal government could do much to help that initiative of the Ontario government by passing this bill and providing this help. The vast majority of couples looking to adopt children are younger couples, in their twenties, thirties and forties, who want to have a family and at the same time are establishing their careers. They are probably buying homes and generally getting established. Therefore, the outrageous costs of some $10,000 to $15,000 for a domestic adoption and $20,000 to $30,000 for an international adoption is pretty daunting to those kinds of families. We could certainly do a lot to help them.

It is unfortunate, and I do not think there is any way to avoid it, but the process of adopting, both the process of putting a child up for adoption and the process of adopting a child, are legal processes. I do not think there is any way to avoid that. However, it seems whenever something in today's world becomes a legal process, it also becomes a very expensive process and those costs are pretty prohibitive.

I think it is a great way to go. It is not only the best outcome for society and the child, but it is a cost saver as well. The article in the Ottawa Citizen today quoted the cost of keeping a child as a ward of the state at $40,000 a year. There is a lot to be gained if those children can be put up for adoption more quickly and the process speeded up. The costs to those parents would be somewhat reduced through this tax benefit of up to $7,000, based on a percentage of the costs incurred.

The state could save money as well. There is also an issue of fairness because the process of having children and raising one's own children is subsidized by the state. It has been for as long as I can remember. As regrettable as it might be, with 30,000 pregnancies a year, babies that are terminated before birth are also a subsidized process by the state. Surely, with the tremendous benefit that is derived by everybody involved from the adoption process, we can justify the subsidization of the adoption process.

I have had occasion, several times in my 10 years as a member of Parliament, to help parents adopt, both domestically and internationally, with all the red tape and all the roadblocks that are put up. It is a daunting process to enter into as some of my colleagues described. It takes a lot of courage to start that and it takes years and years to go through the process.

We could do a lot of other things to help those parents, to help them through the process and to speed the process up. This is perhaps one part of it, but at least it is something we can do to help others enjoy the experience that we as parents have in raising children and having that pride.

I support the bill enthusiastically and hope the government would look at it from a compassionate point of view and support it as well.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

1 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Seeing no other members rising, I will recognize the hon. member for Prince George--Peace River under right of reply for the final five minutes of debate on this important matter.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

1 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jay Hill Canadian Alliance Prince George—Peace River, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin my five minute wrap-up by thanking my hon. colleagues who rose today and those who rose on February 19 during the first hour of debate on Bill C-246.

I would particularly like to express my appreciation and the appreciation of adoptive parents from across Canada to my Conservative colleagues and the members of the New Democratic Party and the Bloc Québécois. Their support for this legislation indicates that they recognize the contribution that adoptive parents make to society as a whole, as well as the financial obstacles they face in building their families.

Many of the members who rose today did an admirable job of presenting some of the same arguments in support of a federal tax deduction for expenses relating to the adoption of a child that I myself have argued for many times in the past. It is unfortunate that the government appears poised to continue to deny this recognition and fairness to adoptive parents.

During the first hour of debate on Bill C-246 last month, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance stated that his government could not support this legislation because “the Government of Canada should not be in the business of making distinctions among families and the choices that they make”. He also stated that taxpayers should not be subsidizing what at times could be “discretionary expenses”.

I would like to point out that it is the government itself that has already established different classes of families. Bill C-246 would correct the inequity that sees adoptive parents face significant financial obstacles in starting and building their families.

The parliamentary secretary said it himself, “A child is a child is a child”. Because the federal government does not do anything to mitigate the financial burden of adoptive parents or anything to encourage adoption, it has established a separate costly class of adoptive families. It is as though the Liberal government is simply telling Canadians to accept that an adoptive child is an expensive child.

As I have said many times before, most adoptive parents willingly accept the financial implications of adopting a child. They believe the love and emotional rewards they receive in return cannot be given a price tag.

There was a very timely article, as was referred to earlier, on the front page of today's Ottawa Citizen , which detailed how the Ontario government is endeavouring to find ways to encourage more adoption. There are about 8,900 children who are wards of the crown and are awaiting adoption in Ontario alone. If the federal government were to provide a tax deduction for the thousands of dollars required to adopt a child, I believe many more Canadian parents would consider adoption.

I would like to express my frustration that this legislation has come this far, its second hour of debate, only to face almost certain death. Even if sufficient Liberal MPs rightfully ignore their government's ridiculous argument against this legislation and vote to allow it to proceed to committee for review, it is likely that an expected election call will kill Bill C-246 in its tracks. That is very frustrating for me and it is very frustrating for adoptive parents all across this country.

However, I will close by stating that I intend to win my seat once again in the upcoming election and I intend to reintroduce this bill in the next Parliament. This legislation to enact a tax deduction for adoption expenses will not go away no matter how much the Liberals would like it to.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

1:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

1:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

1:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

1:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

1:05 p.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Income Tax ActPrivate Members' Business

1:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

All those opposed will please say nay.