Debates of Oct. 17th, 2005

Criminal Code

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary North Centre, AB]

Madam Speaker, the purpose of the proceedings at present is to make inquiries of the Government of Canada with respect to the residential schools matter and in particular the progress which the government has made in the time since May when an agreement, in a tentative way, was struck with the Assembly of First Nations.

It also worth noting that this matter was in fact before the House of Commons by way of a motion of the House some time ago. At that time, which was mid-April, the following resolution was adopted by the House: “That the government take all of the actions recommended” by the Indian affairs committee and by the House of Commons “on an urgent basis, with consideration for the frailty and short life expectancy” of the residential school survivors, pointing out that the residential school survivors are dying at the rate of approximately 5 per day, or approximately 1,000 Canadians per year.

In addition, at that time the House of Commons accepted the following recommendation of the committee:

That the Government engage in court-supervised negotiations with former students to achieve a court-approved, court-enforced settlement for compensation that relieves the Government of its liability for those former students who are able to establish a cause of action and a lawful entitlement to compensation.

It was also recommended that the existing ADR process be amended or, more properly speaking, brought to a close, and, quite significantly, that the Government of Canada undertake an initiative to ensure that the former students have the opportunity at some sort of “truth and reconciliation process” to speak to all Canadians about this matter.

In the time since, it has been very difficult for Canadians to ascertain what has been happening. The government announced in May of this year that a full settlement had been arrived at with the Assembly of First Nations. At that time, former Justice Iacobucci of the Supreme Court of Canada was appointed as the Government of Canada's lawyer.

Since that time, further court cases have been filed, giving proof, really, to what the committee had recommended and what the committee had forewarned the government about. At the present time there are class action lawsuits commenced by some 13,000 individuals. In addition, the Assembly of First Nations commenced a $12 billion class action against the Government of Canada. Over the course of this past summer, three claims were filed on behalf of Inuit Canadians, on behalf of Métis Canadians and, as I recall, on behalf of Canadians in Ontario, Saskatchewan, the Yukon in particular, and Alberta. There is a wide-ranging array of court cases that have been undertaken.

Regrettably, the government seems not to have moved forward on the truth and reconciliation process but appears to be mired down in discussions and not proceeding on that process even though aboriginal Canadians who are former students are dying even as we speak.

Moreover, the ADR process continues to be remarkable in its inefficiency and wastefulness, even by the standards of this arrogant and worn-out Liberal government. Since May of 2004 there have been 368 ADR decisions issued. Of the $100 million that has been spent on administration, only $17 million went to settlements; that is less than 17¢ on the dollar making its way to the victims.

Today I ask for a response from the Deputy Prime Minister explaining this dire situation.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Madam Speaker, I rise today in response to the question put to the House by my hon. colleague, the member for Calgary Centre-North, regarding the resolution of residential school claims.

Bringing closure to the legacy of residential schools lies at the heart of real progress toward reconciliation and renewing relationships between the government and aboriginal peoples who attended these schools and their families and communities.

Over the last year, advocacy from many sources, most notably from the Assembly of First Nations, has brought into focus the need to recognize the adverse impacts of Indian residential schools.

On May 30, the Government of Canada appointed a federal representative to lead discussions with legal counsel for former students, the Assembly of First Nations, legal counsel for the church entities and other involved parties.

Reaching a timely, lasting and fair solution of the legacy of residential schools is our goal. The federal representative is working on an expedited basis with legal counsel for former students, the Assembly of First Nations and legal counsel for the churches. These discussions are exploring ways to recognize the residential school experience of all former students, monetary or otherwise, including support for the healing that needs to continue to take place.

The Hon. Frank Iacobucci is to provide recommendations as soon as possible, but no later than March 31, 2006, on a settlement package that will address payments to former students, a truth and reconciliation process, and community based healing and commemoration, as well as the continuation of an appropriate alternative dispute resolution process to address serious abuse.

I am sure that the hon. member for Calgary Centre-North must have been pleased to learn of Mr. Iacobucci's appointment, and of the mandate given to him.

On April 11, 2005, the hon. member spoke in this House of the need for restorative justice and the need to work with legal counsel for former students to address the legacy of Indian residential schools. These are, in fact, key components of the government's approach, as was announced on May 30.

More troubling, however, is the hon. member's ongoing preoccupation with the dismantling of the ADR process, the alternative dispute resolution process. The government cannot and will not abandon those former students who have chosen the ADR process to pursue their abuse claims. During the period of the discussions led by Mr. Iacobucci, the ADR process will continue to operate for those former students who have chosen that option to pursue their claims for physical and sexual abuse and wrongful confinement.

Clearly this government is committed to the fair and timely resolution of residential school claims and to implementing the necessary changes to its approach to engender broader reconciliation with aboriginal people.

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary North Centre, AB]

Madam Speaker, in the time since May of 2004, this government has managed to produce only 368 ADR decisions in total. The program has been running for two years and has spent more than $100 million, with only $17 million going to the claimants and a grand total of 368 cases. This system was designed, in the hearts and minds of the government, to accommodate 18,000 cases. It is not working. Everyone knows that. It is the government that will not admit it.

More to the point, why is this government not explaining to Canadians today what is happening with the negotiations that are under way? The reports in the newspapers say that the government is preparing to table a proposition of approximately $4 billion. No one has said where that money is going to come from.

Why will the government not tell us today what is going on in its process, where it intends to take this matter, how it will be accountable to aboriginal Canadians, and how it will be financing all of this?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am not sure where the member gets his information. There is a process under way. Justice Iacobucci is consulting with the stakeholders at large.

I should point out that we have made considerable progress in the rollout of our response to this tragic legacy and in particular with the ADR process. Since the beginning of the year, we have seen a significant rise in the movement of cases.

The ADR process is a culturally based and holistic way of providing additional choices to former students seeking compensation for sexual abuse, physical abuse and wrongful confinement. It is a voluntary process that provides former students with a fair, timely and supportive option to settle claims outside of the courts.

The ADR process will continue to operate for those students who have chosen that option to pursue their claims, and participation in the ADR process will not prejudice the ability of former students to take advantage of benefits which may arise from the discussions being led by the Hon. Frank Iacobucci.

This government is committed, as I said, to finding fair solutions for resolving the legacy of residential schools. We will continue to make refinements to the ADR process and to our overall approach.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Madam Speaker, the government each day and every day continues to show the Canadian taxpayer that it does not care. It believes it is entitled to a level of spending, a level of lavish living that just does not exist in the real world of hard-working Canadians.

One of the most recent examples of this is the use of the Challenger jets as flying limos, as party taxis, as a way of not having to sit with the regular folk.

It is reported to cost $11,000 per hour to fuel, operate and staff one of these jets. In just a few hours of travel the government has spent the annual earnings of a family in Canada. That is an average Canadian, the same average Canadian the government would rather spend thousands not to have to sit beside.

Let us discuss the guidelines for the use of these Challenger jets. The guidelines are that they only to be used for government business and only under the following circumstances.

Guideline one: “Flights to a point where there is no commercial service available”. Air Canada, WestJet and others still strive to fly across this nation and with some pretty good schedules.

Guideline two: “When there is no space available on commercial service”. Although I have seen some crowded planes, people can usually get on one.

Guideline three: “Because of difficulties in routings or timetables”. On whose authority? Who decides what difficulty is? That is a great guideline.

Guideline four: “Substantial savings of time can be made by using the aircraft in place of commercial airlines”. Again, whose definition is it of “substantial”? Hopefully it is not the person making the request to use the aircraft.

Guideline five: “When sudden changes in plans require emergency air transportation and no commercial air service is available”. Again, who defines the term “sudden”? Is that today, is it 48 hours ago or a week ago? Where is the suddenness?

Guideline six: “When official parties of some size need to travel together and significant advantage can be gained by using a government aircraft”. Again, remember the first restriction is it must be for government business.

The Department of National Defence is the sole approving authority for flights conducted under the government guidelines. I wonder how often it says no.

If, as stated in the guidelines, and the first clearly states “used only for government business”, it is extremely challenging, pardon the pun, to think that many flights back to a minister's riding are for government business.

An emergency flight from the home riding at a time of a national crisis I could understand. However, I find it unbelievable that just by coincidence many ministers find government business that meets all these other restrictions and yet gets them home in time for dinner.

I am sure Canadians are astounded by this coincidence also. This is one of the most common flights, the going home emergency flight.

Ministers of the government may feel they are entitled to this level of pampering, but let us ask the average Canadian, who cringes each times he or she fills the car just to get back and forth to work, if a year's salary spent on these flights home is okay. Let us ask seniors or farmers who just had the oil tank filled for the winter if these flights are okay.

I think I know the answer, but those ministers never fly with the real Canadians and so they may not hear it.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Madam Speaker, there is nothing like parking one's brain at the door and ignoring the facts. It would probably be a prudent thing to deal with the facts. The only thing the member got straight was the fact of the guidelines. There is nothing like playing politics with reality. Let us deal with the facts. I would ask the member to look at them in the context of what he said.

First, there is a total fleet of four Challenger jets. Two jets are on reserve all the time, one for the Prime Minister and one for the Governor General. For security reasons they cannot travel by regular commercial flights. There are two jets available for ministers, and the member got the guidelines correct. They are available for travel by ministers, members of the opposition, VIPs and senior public servants for use in government business. For example, a Challenger was used a year ago to shepherd a number of members of Parliament, including members of the opposition, to attend the funeral of Lieutenant Saunders who died on the HMCS Chicoutimi .

Canada is a vast country and this kind of transportation guarantees that MPs and ministers can rapidly reach every corner of the country when they need to do government business. They use the Challenger fleet under very well defined Treasury Board guidelines, which are as follows: first, they are only used for government business; second, when savings of essential time can be made; third, when sudden changes of plans are required; fourth, for emergency air transportation; and fifth, when official parties of some kind need to travel to distant parts of the country or internationally for government business.

Indeed we do say no. I looked at the facts on this. There were about 150 applications to use the Challengers and they were used about 120 times. That was over a period of about three years. We can see that the number of times the Challengers are used is actually quite infrequent. Members of Parliament and indeed ministers travel together on most commercial flights. Frequently the minister says no to the use of the Challengers.

Our policy is very clear. Ministers must justify the use of the Challengers. This information is a matter of public record. Challenger use is scrutinized very publicly. It is also carefully controlled. It is a use of last resort.

Just for the member's information about travelling for the rest of us, I happen to travel economy class. The same cannot be said for many of his colleagues.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

Madam Speaker, I wish that the facts were all the gentleman had wrong. It was great that he was able to listen to the guidelines. Maybe now they are ingrained.

Let us talk a little about the going home emergency. In the examples that we have read here, why are so many of the abuses of the $11,000 an hour Challengers—and please correct me if they are not abuses—for the minister to return home? Where is the emergency back at home?

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

The pizza is getting cold.

[Joe Preston, Conservative, Elgin—Middlesex—London, ON]

The pizza is getting cold. That is a great one.

The gentleman opposite said he looked into it. I would ask him then to please table for me the information he looked up on the number of times the answer was no and the number of times the answer was yes, and all the circumstances surrounding those. That would be just fantastic for us to hear. We do not have the same luxury as he has, and he certainly knows that the average Canadian taxpayer does not have the same luxury as he has stated.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Madam Speaker, anyone who was paying close attention to the member's comments would have to say that they are allegations completely not supported by any facts.

I would be happy to provide the member with the facts about how many times the Challengers have been used. For the record, there were roughly 150 applications and they were used roughly 130 times over a period of two years. That is for two Challenger jets. Given the size of cabinet, after doing some elemental math, one can see that the Challengers are used very infrequently. Two Challengers are used for the entire cabinet. In total all four were used roughly 120 times. The Governor General and the Prime Minister use two. Two are available for cabinet and indeed for other members across the way and for senior officials.

In total, we can see that the use of a Challenger is a very infrequent event. It is subject to public scrutiny. The results are open to public scrutiny. We do release that information so that all members of the public can appropriately, as the member mentioned, see where the Canadian taxpayers' money is going.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Speaker, I rise today to follow up on my questions of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration regarding the great pizza caper. I have asked him numerous questions on the subject. I would like him to comment specifically on our exchange during question period on October 5, 2005.

I was questioning the minister on his out of control spending on pizza and other food at Camarra's Pizzeria in Toronto, specifically about him spending $207 on a meal for himself and two guests on August 20. I have some specific follow-up questions to which I would like the minister to respond, but first here is some background for interested Canadians.

It came to light in the September 20 edition of the Journal de Montréal that in the 78 days between March 2 and May 18, the immigration minister had taxpayers pay for 30 different meals in various restaurants, occasionally with one or two other guests, racking up nearly $6,800 in hospitality expenses. When expenses claimed by his staff are added in, the total rises to 43 meals costing taxpayers $12,343.

If this is not enough, the minister and his staff have been double billing taxpayers for meals. According to various disclosures from the minister and his staff, he seems to have attended two breakfasts on March 22, two lunches on March 3 and two dinners on March 21. Either he is very hungry or he does not know which restaurant to go to.

On October 3 the immigration minister's latest expenses were released showing that he charged taxpayers for another $3,700 in meals between June and August, plus $1,500 in meals by his staff.

In the last six months the minister has billed taxpayers for 68 meals at a cost of $17,500. At that rate the minister is spending an average of $258 per meal with Canadians picking up the tab. He is spending more per meal than an average family of four spends on groceries in two weeks. Based on the cost estimated by Canada's national nutritious food basket, a family of four in Toronto, where the minister comes from, should spend $128 per week on groceries. That is $256 for two weeks, $2 less than what the minister spends on one meal.

These facts raise troubling questions. What was the purpose of these meals? For meals prior to the confidence vote, were they really planning sessions for a possible spring election? Was the minister using taxpayers' money to plan Liberal political activities?

All of those questions need answering by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. However, they are not the only ones. I was never given a satisfactory answer as to how he could spend $207 at Camarra's for three people. He did not answer the question on what was the purpose of the meeting. Was it for regional issues as he first claimed, or was it for immigration matters?

Additional questions arise out of these expenses. Who attended the meetings with the minister? Were they lobbyists, registered or otherwise? Were they for his political staff planning election activities? Did he take his family? What did he order that ended up costing taxpayers so much money?

I went to Camarra's with three of my colleagues on October 7 and spent $134 for four people, which is less than what the minister spent for two people on July 4. Simply put, why are his expenses so high?

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for his keen interest in the minister's consultations with partners and stakeholders at every available opportunity, including mealtimes.

The hon. member's math is a bit interesting. I suppose one could average out meals as one wishes and say that if one had 25 meals over x months, that it must be so much for one particular meal. That does not take into consideration whether one meal was for 12 people and the other meal was for 2 and the other meal was for 8. Of course we know, Madam Speaker, as people who often have to feed our families that the number of people around the table can increase the cost substantially.

However, the hon. member knows of the demands on the time of a minister for discussions with interested parties, with groups and colleagues who are interested in citizenship and immigration or other things like that. It often means informal gatherings over lunches and dinners. This is especially true of course for this particular minister and his staff.

In such cases Parliament has decided on a series of guidelines that individual servants of the crown or their superiors use to claim for expenses associated with carrying out duties of the Government of Canada. They are called Treasury Board guidelines. I think these guidelines are fair, reasonable and open and I think the minister followed all of these guidelines.

The Treasury Board guidelines indicate that hospitality activities can include meals or similar activities when the government is honouring an outstanding Canadian or organizing official conferences. Such activities can also take place during a visit to Canada by representatives of national or international agencies, who are involved in activities like those of the government or who want to learn more about and enjoy life in Canada, or during official discussions with persons other than government employees. This also applies when other officials meet for the first time.

The expenses in question were incurred within the framework of these guidelines, and more specifically within the guidelines on maximum deductible expenses. The minister and his staff fully complied with the Treasury Board guidelines.

The government is fully committed to accountability and transparency. That is why all of these costs must be fully accounted for and disclosed to the public on each departmental website on a quarterly basis within 30 days following the last day of the quarter. In fact this was done.

I want to assure the House that the minister and his staff as in the past will continue to be open and accessible, and will meet with colleagues and members of the opposition parties to listen to their concerns, to try to find mutual solutions to their problems.

If the minister's schedule, as we well know ministers' schedules are, is so busy during the day that very early in the morning, very late in the evening, or over mealtimes are the only times the minister has to conduct these meetings, then so be it. I do not think it is fair to ask people to pay out of their own pockets in order to have a meal with the minister and talk to him.

[Rahim Jaffer, Conservative, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Madam Speaker, I find it hard to believe that there is a parliamentary secretary in this place who would actually stand up and defend those kinds of expenses.

I look in front of me and I see the different expenses of various political ministers. They are fractions of what the immigration minister has spent in the same period of time. I believe, if I am not mistaken, that the parliamentary secretary to the minister of immigration used to be a minister herself. I am sure she had the prudent ability to watch her own expenses. I am not going to go back and dig out her own expenses, but is she really standing up in the House today and saying that if she were the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration that she would rack up the same sort of expenses and try to justify them?

I somehow do not think so. I think she would show much more prudence. I think she did when she was a minister. How can she stand up today and defend the actions of her minister that are obviously outrageous and three times the amount that Canadians in his own riding would spend when it comes to groceries? How can she stand and defend that?

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Madam Speaker, it is very easy to defend it because the nature of the portfolio of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration means that the minister travels across the country to meet with various groups and organizations with regard to refugee issues.

We know that the majority of immigrants and refugees go to Toronto, which is the largest city in Canada. When I was secretary of state for multiculturalism I knew full well that Toronto had the largest number of groups that were interested in integration, in settlement, in issues such as language, et cetera. The minister meets with people regularly because of the very nature of his work.

The hon. member said that he ate at the same place, he ordered food and it did not cost him as much. First, it is my understanding that the restaurant does not only serve pizza so maybe the minister did not have pizza. Second, I would love to know how much it cost the hon. member to fly to Toronto to do his bit of analytical work.

[The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)]

The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 6:59 p.m.)