Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-37 on behalf of the New Democratic Party. I was part of a meaningful committee, led by our chair who did due diligence to ensure that all members had an adequate opportunity to contribute to the bill. He also ensured that the bill was shepherded through the process of a very difficult parliamentary session.
At the end of the day, this shows there can be all party cooperation to create a bill, in a balanced approach, to deal with a situation with which Canadians have expressed some frustration and concern. Canadians do not want unsolicited phone calls to their homes, which invade their privacy. However, genuine interests of businesses and not for profit organizations use telemarketing as a way of being productive, not only in terms of reaching their goal to be profitable but also providing employment in different regions across the country.
This is a good bill. It creates a solid first step. It is important to talk about the privacy aspect first and what ordinary Canadians feel with regard to telephones calls to their homes.
Canadians foot the bill to have telephones installed in their homes. They pay service charges to maintain the service. There also is the hardware that is necessary for the service to be completed. These calls come through something that they pay for on a regular basis. Service charges eat into their household incomes. At the same time, they are frustrated with unsolicited phone calls from people seeking their support for good causes or from entrepreneurs wanting to introduce them to a business opportunity. There does not seem to be much regulation to ensure that people have the opportunity to opt out. Alternatively, there does not seem be accountability in the system.
It is important to note the voluntary registry under the Canadian Marketing Association, which supports Bill C-37. From experience, it knew it had to update its list often, and there was an administrative capacity to that. There also was a bit of frustration in the sense that, because it is a voluntary registry, there were no penalties associated to those who violated the list. There were also oversight issues related to updating the list for those people who did not want telephone solicitation and marketing to their homes.
It is important to note that in 2003 an Environics survey showed that 81% of respondents reported receiving unsolicited calls and on average received 3.43 calls per week. It has probably increased since 2003. Often people will joke that they receive that amount of calls per dinner time from different organizations.
It also is important to note that those are the calls about which people knew. Canadians face the antagonizing experience of the computerization of this industry, where they are ghost calling into homes. This occurs when a person is at home, the telephone rings, the person picks up the phone and there is no one on the other end. What happens is a computer identifies that person as being home. A caller will then use that information to take advantage of the time the person is there and a call is made soon thereafter.
Quite frankly, this tactic should be eliminated in Canada. I find it difficult to accept the frustration because if individuals are picking the phone up and no one is there, then it is a further intrusion.
While 38% of people said that they tolerated telemarketing, 35% of people were annoyed by telemarketing and 24% hated it. There is a significant divide in the Canadian culture about how tolerant they want to be with regard to this industry, hence the reason for this bill.
An important amendment put forward by the New Democratic Party, which was supported by all parties, was to have a review in three years. The three-year review is important because this is very much a dynamic issue related to employment and privacy. At the same time it can have significant consequences on charitable organizations and businesses that depend upon this type of industry to be profitable and successful. Once again, that also relates to the employment they provide for citizens in our country.
It was noted that amendment 7 would not be discussed here today because it was brought forward after the committee had finished its due diligence on the bill. It is unfortunate that the Speaker has ruled against it. However, I would note that if we had unanimous consent, we could correct the situation, and I would encourage all parties to do so.
The member for Edmonton—Leduc noted that there were significant problems with the bill at first. There were questions about whether the CRTC had the required administrative capacity for which that the government asked. There was a division of lists, basically winners or losers, especially those which could affect charitable organizations by locking them out entirely. As well, other important amendments came forward through a spirit of cooperation that led us here today.
Any time we see a bill come back to this chamber with several amendments, I think is an indicator of a balanced approach, one that builds cooperation in the House of Commons.
In the summary of the bill, the CRTC would have three functions. A third independent party would be responsible for the registry. There has been some good debate about the effects of registry, its cost and overruns. This would be funded by the operators. Therefore, there is something of significance if lack of accountability in the registry occurs.
Hopefully, we have learned lessons that will provide some guidance to ensure that there would not be an additional burden placed upon the industry and the charitable organizations because of the registry and the funding required to ensure that lists are scrubbed and updated. There also would be accountability at the end of the day.
Those consequences could be significant if there were a problem. We now have a changing culture where there will be opportunities for people to remove themselves from lists to which people formerly had access.
It is important to note that some of the lists to be removed from the system are quite helpful to the industry. There is a significant growth in the industry right now, in terms of jobs and employment in Canada and even abroad. I think we have all received solicitation calls from destinations outside of North America. We also have call help centres out there. However, there will be a change in the culture. If there is a burden of responsibility for paying this and there is an impact on the revenue coming in related to the implementation and the culture experienced by people, then there could be significant problems for charitable organizations and businesses. It is a responsibility of the House to ensure that we correct those problems. We are intervening into a curtained system.
Another important thing to note is there will be fines once a full registry is set up, established and operating, which will take approximately 19 months according to the CRTC. In testimony in front of our committee, Mr. French identified that it would take several months to get this thing going. Once that happens, penalties will be imposed. I want to read the section on penalties so people understand there will be expectations on those who are intolerant of the government legislation and of the laws of the land. In particular, section 72.01, the administrative monetary penalties, states:
Every contravention of a prohibition or requirement of the Commission under section 41 constitutes a violation and the person who commits the violation is liable
(a) in the case of an individual, to an administrative monetary penalty of $1,500; or
(b) in the case of a corporation, to an administrative monetary penalty of $15,000.
That is a balanced approach to take to ensure there will be some accountability at the end of the day.
We know that voluntary standards do not often work and that they are problematic because there is no punitive action at the end of the day. Different organizations or individuals will take advantage of that opportunity. Some are law-abiding and will follow the rule, but if there is not a penalty at the end of the day, it becomes increasingly problematic.
I want to bring forward the important factor of charitable organizations and the impact that the bill could have not only on their membership but also on the services they provide to Canadians. We heard testimony from Imagine Canada in a submission to the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry, Natural Resources, Science and Technology on May 4, 2005:
Cumulatively, nonprofit and voluntary sector groups contribute $75.9 billion annually to the national economy—$34.7 billion if such institutional charities as hospitals, universities and colleges are excluded. This constitutes 8.5% of GDP; 4.0% excluding institutional charities.
It is very important to note that this is a significant shift in our Canadian economy, with 8.5% of the entire GDP being influenced by a new government public policy that is supported by Canadians but which is going to have an impact.
Ms. Dawn Regan, director of finance and fundraising for MADD Canada, quoted a specific item that I think is important to note, because we can see the dependence of particular organizations on calling and the impact it could have on Canadian culture.
We know that MADD is one organization that is supported universally across the country. It does great work in Windsor West, I know, as well as in other constituencies across the country, affecting not only its members but also protecting other Canadian citizens by being proactive with regard to drunk driving and its consequences.
MADD's Dawn Regan said, “Over 90% of our funds are raised through personal donations”. It has asked for an exemption, which it does not currently have. That will go before the CRTC when it starts to develop its list. It is significant that 90% of MADD's donations are susceptible to this change in the bill. This will take away its infrastructure.
I come from a background of working with not for profit organizations. When their systems are built up with that type of dynamic, it makes it very difficult for them to fill the vacuum with other types of revenues. It is important not only in terms of the way that organizations are structured but also for the volunteers and their ability to bring in the resources necessary for their programming.
For example, if that 90% funding drops, then they are going to have to backfill with some other type of funding mechanism, which is very difficult. Fundraising is competitive in this day and age because we have so many charitable organizations competing in difficult circumstances. Many of the corporate donors are tapped out in terms of the availability of capital for organizations and groups.
MADD will have to do their fundraising in a new culture. If that lost revenue is not backfilled, Canadians will lose out and there will be a safety issue on our streets. I think that eventually there will be a further cost if we do not continue to fight drunk driving in our communities.
It is important to note that some of these charities are not going to be classified under the Income Tax Act. As New Democrats we wanted to see a broader exemption to begin with. Then, after looking at the testimony and the input after three years, we wanted to be able to narrow the scope if Canadians chose to do so or continue the status quo.
Some of these organizations do very good work. Greenpeace, for example, is an organization that is not going to have the exemption. It is going to have to change and it will be important for Greenpeace to adapt.
There are also: the Toronto Police Amateur Athletic Association; the Toronto Professional Fire Fighters' Association; Special Olympics Manitoba; the International Association of Fire Fighters and all its locals; the Canadian Professional Police Association and all locals; the National Action Committee on the Status of Women and all locals; the Lions Club; the World Wildlife Federation and so on. The list goes on and on. All not for profit groups whose primary role is advocacy cannot get charitable tax status, but they do depend upon this type of calling format to reach their base and also to reach out to new donors and expand their operations.
It was interesting to note that in the debate today we heard about the lack of accountability that we still sometimes see in the industry. I have personal experience working in call centres. Some of them have come a long way in terms of working standards and improvements; they are so far ahead of what they were. When I was in high school, I worked after school in a call centre that was set up in a hotel room. I can still picture it and smell it today. Twenty-five kids were packed into a dingy small room with one window. Wooden tables, underlaid with iron, were set up with a bunch of telephones on top. Everybody smoked.
We were calling on behalf of an organization that was using a charitable front. We had scripts to read when we contacted individuals in the community. We were led to believe that all of the money collected would be going to the charitable organization but later discovered that the funds were not going to it at all.
My friend and I eventually quit the job in absolute disgust and reported this incident, but there was nothing in the law that prevented this from happening. At the time, it was allowed. Not much could be done with regard to overseeing the message we were conveying versus what the charitable organization actually received.
That needs to change. That type of thing puts other charitable organizations and legitimate businesses that would like to use call centres in a lesser light. That is why accountability is very important.
The bill will provide a screening process which would make people who are contacted by this type of service feel better. It will also provide an opportunity to have some of the calls made to residences withdrawn. Parliament will have the mandate to review what the CRTC is doing and what the government is doing to make sure that the CRTC has the right support and is following the right process.
I raised a concern regarding Canadians' privacy through an amendment which unfortunately was defeated. It related to the PATRIOT Act in the United States. In any type of outsourcing done in the United States, even if it is information about a Canadian, the CIA and the FBI can get all that personal information. For example, if an individual is a credit card holder and the call centre has the data, neither the company nor the individual are told about that. The individual has no rights in terms of what happens with the information.
I had concerns that we would be outsourcing to a third party American firm which would then locate in the United States. We had that situation when the government outsourced the census project to Lockheed Martin. Subsequently, we had to take action that cost millions of dollars in taxpayers' money to correct the situation so the data would remain in Canada and not go abroad where it would be susceptible to other third party governments.
Unfortunately, the committee did not support this recommendation. The Privacy Commissioner thanked me for allowing him to be a part of the committee process and told me my fears could be allayed and put to rest. He told me his office would watch for this and be part of this.
It is a healthy part of our current parliamentary democracy when we have a committee like the industry committee that does a lot of good work in a non-partisan way. I would suggest that this bill is part of what we have done.