House of Commons Hansard #142 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was prices.

Topics

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Peterborough Ontario

Liberal

Peter Adams LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development and Minister responsible for Democratic Renewal

Madam Speaker, my colleague always speaks passionately to these matters. I know he has the concerns of low income people greatly at heart.

I too have received a lot of calls from people who do not qualify through the present criteria. I hope there might be some expansion in this legislation but if not, it does seem to me to be a way to deliver some relief to a large number of people very quickly and efficiently.

I know my colleague studies these matters. I have an idea of the cost of this, and we heard it in the debate today, but I wonder if he has an idea in his mind of the amounts of money involved in the following.

It is my understanding that people like truckers and farmers who use gasoline and diesel already receive the GST rebate, so they are helped already by our system, the system we have here in Canada not overseas. Also, it seems to me that all low income people receive GST rebate cheques on a regular basis and they will continue to receive those.

I also know we have transferred from the gas tax, which we are discussing here, large amounts of money directly to the municipalities all across the country, particularly for transit but also for other purposes. I wonder if my colleague has any sense of the amounts of money being transferred from the GST in these particular areas.

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Rivière-Du-Loup—Montmagny, QC

Madam Speaker, the Bloc Québécois has done an estimate for each of the proposals it has submitted. Take for example assistance to remote regions, which is not in the bill. We estimate that this measure would have cost about $158 million for Quebec and $600 million nationally. For all of Canada, assistance to taxi drivers would be $17.5 million; to independent truckers, $75 million; to farmers, $250 million; to logging companies, $50 million. That gives a general idea of what we wanted on this side.

On the other hand, where would this money come from? It would come from the contingency fund that the government has set aside in its estimates for extraordinary circumstances. I hope that we all consider the rise in gas prices that we have seen to be an extraordinary circumstance. Otherwise we are giving a free pass to the oil companies. In any case, its economic impact is extraordinary.

To answer the hon. member, it is very important that we bravely draw $500 million from the extra profits of the oil companies. To date, the government has not been imaginative enough to find any solutions other than helping out seniors and people with children—as is entirely proper—since administrative mechanisms already exist for them.

The Minister of Finance has openly admitted before the Standing Committee on Industry, Natural Resources, Science and Technology that there was no mechanism for making payments to other people, so therefore he was not going to grant them assistance. This response does not seem particularly astute, but in reality it conceals an even deeper reason: the implication is that the Minister of Finance did not want to further tax the oil companies so that this assistance can be paid for.

That woman from my riding, 35 or 40 years of age, earning $9 an hour, who has to travel 10 or 12 kilometres per day and lives alone, should have been entitled to some form of allowance. That money could have been taken right out of the extra profits of the oil companies: that would have seemed completely natural.

The bill should be amended so that we can get that additional money from the oil companies to help our loggers, our farmers, our independent truckers and the people in our remote regions. That way, all of these people would be able to deal with the repercussions, which are similar to those of the depression of 1930. Before that date, people were stripped of their purchasing power. The same thing has been done in this gasoline crisis, especially to the people who make the economy work. We expect the government to make this effort and to have the courage to take a significant amount back from the oil companies, so as to then give it to the people who have been hurt in their pocketbooks and dearly need that money to make ends meet every month.

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for his analysis and the list of improvements to the bill and for pointing out not only the redundancies in the bill but also its shortcomings. It is almost as though the legislation was brought forth to diffuse attention on the current scandal of corruption that has plagued the current government.

A couple of years ago my colleague had a situation that involved a constituent who travelled across the border to fill his car up with gasoline. This individual was attempting to make ends meet.

Will the bill help that unfortunate constituent who went to jail for not paying the extra taxes that had been put on our gasoline?

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Rivière-Du-Loup—Montmagny, QC

Madam Speaker, that person, like all people who live in remote regions like the riding I represented before the last election, if he does not have any children and if he is not a senior, he will not get any compensation. This has a major economic impact in our regions. If he is looking for a job, there are additional costs on which he has not planned. If his wages are not very high, and suddenly there is a $10, $20 or $30 increase in the price of gas, he will be caught short.

Maybe if someone earns $100,000 a year, another $10 a week does not seem like very much. But for a person with a family income of $25,000 or $30,000 a year, it affects what is left to pay for the groceries and the rent. So the economy slows down because people make a mental calculation and say, “In the end, I lose out if I travel 30 kilometres or more. So it does not make any sense to continue working there”. And that leads to all kinds of other problems.

The government really does have its hands full with the sponsorship scandal. Nevertheless, in regard to this bill and the principle behind it, the increase in the price of gasoline leads to a redistribution of wealth. It must be admitted that there is a valid principle here and that is what the Bloc Québécois has been saying since the beginning. There must be major improvements to the bill now for the groups of people whom I mentioned in my speech. I hope that by the end of the debate, the government will finally support this.

There was a request that the bill be referred to committee first, which would have made it legally possible to expand it, give it a broader scope and make adjustments. The government refused to do so. I hope that the government is not going to hide behind an administrative procedure or a parliamentary practice. The hon. member for Peterborough just said a few interesting things. He said, “I hope that there might be some expansion in this legislation”. So I hope that all members of the House of Commons will view things in the same way, especially those on the Standing Committee on Finance, which is going to discuss this bill. The committee needs to improve it. A valid principle is being served here, but in regard to the procedures and the people who are going to receive the money, it is clearly not enough.

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Madam Speaker, the hon. member said that this would only be a temporary measure. Could he comment on how the bill would deal with speculation in the industry of ongoing profiteering and stock exchanges? More barrels of paper are traded per day than are barrels of oil pulled out of the ground. This has a cost on consumers.

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Rivière-Du-Loup—Montmagny, QC

Madam Speaker, there was a time when the current government would say, “There is nothing we can do”. We had to come back many times so that it would realize that perhaps we should change the Competition Act to see if, indeed, things were being done properly and to provide the power to investigate.

There is another thing that has not yet been done at this point. The government should, through the Prime Minister, among others, say, “What could be done about international speculation and refining margins?” This work must be done in the next few months. Otherwise, in one year or two, we will find ourselves again facing the same situation and the government will have to bear responsibility.

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Madam Speaker, before I begin my debate, I would ask the House for unanimous consent to split my time with the member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley. I believe if you would ask all parties, there would be agreement.

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)

Does the member have the consent of the House to split his time?

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

4:55 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Madam Speaker, I thank all parties for allowing us to split our time today as it is a very important debate.

There are some good things in Bill C-66 which the New Democratic Party supports, especially the introduction of some of the interventions in fuel efficiency and economies for our homes to help us kick our dependency on oil. We support that. However, there are some weaknesses which we will touch upon, but it is a step forward.

The great disappointment the New Democrats is this will do nothing to address the systemic problem of dependency, speculation and fluctuations in the oil and gas industry which impact on the Canadian economy, consumers and our sovereignty.

Energy pricing is something that affects every industry as well as almost every consumer. With the wild fluctuations that can take place, it literally can drive people out of business. It also can cause people to make choices in buying prescription drugs to treat their health, or paying the rent, or buying food or getting their kids to and from school.

Canadians face these significant problems. When there are wild fluctuations and prices go up, there is often little time in between to deal with it and budget for it. Too many Canadians now are dealing with issues related to home income costs and being unable to afford the things that are necessary for them to prosper. The bill does not address that issue.

I want to touch briefly on what is happening with the industry in general. First, heating oil prices have risen by a third over the last year and natural gas prices have nearly doubled. World production of oil and gas continues to meet world demand, but three apparent physical factors are the main contributors to the problems that we are facing today.

First, we have a growing demand from industrialized countries like China and India, as well as a growing demand from North America. Because of NAFTA, our market is integrated with the United States. As well, the massive industrialization of China and India is usurping resources not only in the oil and gas industry, but also in other industries, for example, steel, where it will have a significant impact upon Canadian companies as well as on our ability to compete.

Some of those countries, and I point to China in particular, subsidize those industries and have lower working and environmental standards that allow them to compete at a lower wage. This is affecting Canadian jobs.

Second, we have increasing prices and demand. OPEC countries are uncertain about their reserves and ability to increase production for the long term. The statements that came out of OPEC after Katrina identified that it could do little to keep oil prices down any more because refining capacity was so restricted. Although it pulled more barrels of oil out of the ground, it had little opportunity to move that into refining to keep the price down. That is very important to note.

During our hearings in the industry committee, we heard testimony from the industry as well as outside industry which identified that Canada's refining capacity was at 95% to 97%. At the same time a company like Petro-Canada was closing the Oakville refining. It decided not to invest in the improvements and upgrades of that facility or to build a pipeline to Montreal to increase refining capacity. The end result was it lost half of its refining capacity. Now we will be importing oil from another company to offset that lost refining capacity. That vertical integration is very critical on the market.

Last, another threat to future supplies and increased demands is related to the political uncertainty in certain countries where exploration has taken place. There is the potential of tapping into those markets because of the environment and political instability. We witnessed the retreating of plans to expand or to get into those markets. For example, Petro-Canada had to leave an opportunity behind most recently.

The industry committee convened a meeting over the telephone because of the price spikes related to Katrina and the effect upon Canadian consumers and society. There has not been enough talk about the industry, its profits and what happened during that time period.

Recently, the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives released an independent study on gas pricing entitled “What's Behind High Gas Prices”. The study proves that Canada's oil and gas industry has reported record profits of $16 billion in the last year alone, according to Nickle's Energy Group.

Michael Ervin, a leading industry insider and consultant himself, described the industry's recent profit margins as spectacular.This would not have been so bad if it were not for the expense for Canadian consumers or if it were down to simple market forces, as had been advocated by the industry. However, it is not. There is clear evidence of price gouging by the Canadian oil and gas industry, particularly during the period of the recent U.S. hurricanes.

Continuing with that study, it was able to conclude that the price of crude oil rose by $10 U.S. per barrel between June and September. If the industry had kept its other expenses constant, that should have led to an increase at the pump of just 70.9¢ per litre. Instead, the average increase was 15¢, with some communities paying significantly more. Over Labour Day weekend, the average increase was 40¢ on the June price alone. According to a report from the CCPA, the price of Canadian gas should never have gone above $1 per litre.

The gas industry was engaged in clear gouging, taking advantage of public fears over Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. For every penny per litre the gas rises, the industry takes an additional $1.1 million per day. This means that the point of peak gouging, when the difference between a justified crude oil increase and pump price was as much as 45¢, the industry was raking in $15 million of excess profit every day.

Regarding the industry and its refining capacity, the evidence presented by experts at committee was that the profit zone was spectacular. That came from its own advocates.

We need to talk a bit about what is happening with the industry and what it is getting from the Canadian citizen. The Auditor General did a report and analysis of the industry. She found that the fuel sector received more than $40 billion in federal subsidies over the last 30 years. What we have is record profits at the pump, record prices at the pump and the industry continues to get massive subsidies from the Canadian government. This is incredible. Canadians would be shocked.

The Pembina Institute recently stated the industry had $1.4 billion annually in grants and subsidies. It is based on lowering the cost to producers, not to consumers. The industry gets tax deductions in terms of forgoing tax revenue, due to industry specific tax concessions.

It also is important to note that the industry will receive a general corporate tax reduction under the government. There has to be a sense of balance in this. That is not happening in terms of the debate. We will see, with this legislation, that some Canadians will benefit to a certain degree by a few hundred dollars. They will be able to put that money toward the increased cost that they have incurred and will incur in the future related to the price of gasoline and natural gas for heating their homes.

That money will be shifted over to the industry. There is nothing in the legislation that does anything to have a significant overview as well as accountability that will ensure the gouging does not continue. At the same time we will have a settling of prices.

I understand and appreciate the fact that we are moving to more sustainable practices, but that has been done out of crisis. Once again the bill, which will be administered over five years, looks to address some of those concerns, but it is not aggressive enough.

I would point to the auto sector. I represent a significant auto sector strategy. We are trying to work toward getting more energy efficient vehicles on the road, while at the same time creating Canadian jobs. The government has yet to come forward with a national auto policy on that. We should have incentives on the front end and at the same time ensure that the technology is based in our country. This will help to create jobs. We will have cleaner, more efficient vehicles on the road that produce less pollution. More important, it will take our dependency off a system that creates far too much vulnerability for ordinary citizens and does not have a great accountability in terms of the environment and where are country will go.

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca B.C.

Liberal

Keith Martin LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence

Madam Speaker, I take this opportunity to respond to my colleague's speech.

The situation, for those who are watching, is one that we were seized with as a government. It was one that came to our attention as elected officials because all of us were aware that the increase in gas prices was increasingly frustrating and demanding on people, particularly those on fixed incomes.

My colleague brought to the attention of the House the environmental aspects of this issue. I know there are people in the House today who are far more knowledgeable on this than I. However, I want to pose a question to the member because it is a challenge we have.

As time passes and as populations increase, we have a number of opportunities and options in terms of fuel resources and protecting the environment. We know we have the obvious which is oil and gas. There is coal of various qualities. There are also tidal opportunities and wind opportunities.

As a government, we are trying very hard through investments in the public transportation system, which is part of the bill, to assist Canadians in refitting their homes to ensure that they are insulated in a better way. If I may add, it is interesting that in trying to meet our Kyoto requirements, if we are able to insulate the homes in which we live and use existing technologies, we will not only meet our Kyoto requirements but go beyond them. This particular initiative on the part of the finance minister and the Government of Canada will do just that.

My question for the hon. member is this. While we are seized with looking at alternative fuel energy sources, is he aware of the energy costs that are involved in wind power in particular? Is he aware of the efficiencies of wind power and the costs that go into putting wind power up and making it functional?

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Madam Speaker, absolutely there are costs to move us off this habit and this dependency. That is why as New Democrats, we have put forth the Kyoto plan and costed it out. We have encouraged not only in terms of the front ending that we have to do but how it is integrated into our economy, so that we are actually going to be doing the production, manufacturing and the assembly of all of those new technologies that we seem to be losing out to other jurisdictions and countries that are being more progressive.

If it is a question of resources. The parliamentary secretary should understand that I do not think his constituents or mine believe that this industry deserves another corporate tax cut because that is what it is going to get under this administration. The industry has record profits. The total tally is $51.9 billion in corporate profits as reported by StatsCan and 75% of the increase in profits in the first quarter came because of the soaring oil prices. Therefore, it is getting a benefit right now. It is doing quite well frankly. On top of that, the industry is getting grants of $1.4 billion in corporate tax cuts and that is not acceptable.

That money and resources need to be transferred to those types of systems of energy production that are cleaner and more sustainable. It will reduce our pollution, reduce our health care costs, and put Canadians into factories across the country who will pay taxes to the government because they have a good job. That is what we need to do.

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Madam Speaker, my question will be short. Could the hon. member tell us if he believes that an oil price information bureau could keep Canadians, Quebeckers and people from his own province informed of the oil price variations? If so, why? And if not, which is more important, why?

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

No, Madam Speaker, I do not think it will. What we got was a website, not a watchdog. This body lacks any type of real authority. That is what is critical. There has to be some type of mechanism to put in place prevention and accountability. This was done in the past under the previous Conservative administration. In the Bill Davis years in Ontario, he actually froze the price of gasoline at that time. The country created Petro-Canada to put some teeth in against the industry. Now we do not even have any competition.

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

5:10 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Madam Speaker, obviously a debate around energy in this country at any point raises quite a bit of energy within this House and that is as it should be.

I am pleased to speak to this bill at such an early stage. It is at the early stages that we must set the foundations of this debate. We must find out why it is so important for this House to consider this issue. We must alter the fundamental direction of this country when it comes to dealing with our energy and resources and I use those expressions very purposefully because they are ours.

The endowment that we have received from the benefit of being within this country is an incredible supply of both traditional carbon based forms of energy and the energy that we need to be investing in for the future. The expression that has been used over and over again is in a post-carbon world.

I will hit briefly upon four points in the time allotted to me. First, we have the concept of investment and intelligent investments. The government needs to switch course and start to make those industries and those cycles profitable.

Second, I would like to bring this issue home to the people that I represent in Skeena—Bulkley Valley and to Canadians that live in the rural sectors of our country. They are often left out of this type of debate and often left out of the legislation such as this, especially when it is poorly drafted legislated that has been drafted on the fly. It does not address the people living in those smaller and more remote communities.

Third, I would like to talk about the Liberal record on this file and the lack of action; and fourth, there needs to be some sort of future strategy that we need to go ahead with.

With respect to investments, this country often at times cites its key competition with the United States. I would suggest we need to further expand our horizon to consider where the world is moving when it comes to energy security.

So often we fixate upon millions of barrels of oil produced, cubic metres of natural gas produced, yet we see time and again, both in the developing world, in China and India in particular, and much of the advanced world that the question has moved beyond how many millions of barrels can be produced. The question has moved to a place where the diversification of the energy supply is going to dictate the efficiency and effectiveness of the economy and the effectiveness and strength of the society as a whole. Simply relying upon traditional forms of energy will no longer suffice and continue into the next millennia. Among the major industries in our world, many of the most successful are those that are looking for the greatest efficiency.

My colleague from Windsor West pointed out quite succinctly that at the time when we had an oil and gas sector achieving reasonable profits, some would say “exceptional profits”, well and good. Is this a time that Canadians are demanding upon their government, in the same year that a company is turning a record profit, that we should also be subsidizing that company? There is a strange ideology within this government, which is supported by members in the Conservative Party, to continue to subsidize a sector in the midst of record profits.

We all understand that we need to encourage investment in those areas we wish to pursue further, particularly in those sectors that are hurting on the west coast. This past season we witnessed one of the worst fishing seasons that we have seen in decades. The cry for support and the cry for help for some small investment to keep the fleet on the water for next year goes awry. Whereas, when a sector such as the oil and gas sector is doing quite well and calls upon the government for further tax subsidies, it is well adhered to.

There is something in this bill completely lacking and that is the vehicle with which the disbursements will be allocated. It is completely ignoring the community groups and the activist groups that are on the ground dealing with low income Canadians close to the marginal edge trying to assist those Canadians to become more efficient. This bill completely ignores them.

It goes directly through CMHC. It goes through another bureaucratic mechanism and ignores the not for profit sector who are often times cited as one of the most efficient ways to deliver direct programming, particularly to those groups who they most know best, those Canadians who are closest to the edge, closest to the margin, seniors on fixed income, low income families, and those that need the support that this bill is purported to support.

I will move to Kyoto for a moment. When the government signed on to this protocol in 1997, there was so little recognition of the investments required to actually achieve a more efficient economy. There was much rhetoric, there was much spin, and there was much re-announcement of money, but the key investments that should have been made, such as having Canadian families understand how to invest in their child's education and having the business community understand how to make themselves more profitable, were not made by this government. As it scrambles and stumbles toward the Kyoto deadlines, we are meant to believe that somehow we will meet our targets.

There is very little that the environment committee heard from any of the experts we talked to on any side of the issue that held that up to be anything other than a fabrication. The Liberal record with respect to the environment and efficiency on energy is mixed at the very best. Signals are sent to both industry and consumers, and then a different signal is sent the next day.

This legislation was made in a moment of crisis, I would suggest, rather than a strategic plan. When we ask the government to paint for us a picture of what the country may look like in 10 years, in terms of our energy mix and where we are deriving the energy from to enhance our security to enhance our economy, the answer is empty.

The answer is another spending announcement, which the Auditor General herself has pointed out time and time again is money that is re-announced. It is money that is rarely dispensed, and the results that the money is meant to achieve, in this case, greater energy efficiency for Canadians, is suspect because the record is so poor on the environment.

The reason I can say this with confidence and outside out of general political rhetoric is that the numbers do not lie. Our pollution continues to go up. Our economy remains inefficient,. Our economy remains behind in productivity of most of our OECD competitors. This simply cannot continue to go on.

Legislation is made in some sort of political storm and in an intellectual vacuum. I suggest many pieces of this are back-loaded legislation, coming into force four or five years down the road. There are no specifics in this bill that we can find whatsoever as to when this money will actually be given to Canadians who, this winter, will be facing incredibly high energy costs, 30% or 40%, depending on the energy that they rely upon.

What does this mean for a senior on a fixed income or for a low income family just now making it who are having to make these impossible decisions, which members in this House, I would suggest, do not fully appreciate?

I do not believe that there are any members in this House who do not fully understand what it is to have to make those tough choices, between the kids' soccer lessons and the heating bill or between prescription drugs that one needs to survive and the heating and electricity bill. Those are profound questions that Canadians, we are meant to represent, deal with day in and day out.

There is no accounting for a piece of legislation that provides some small band-aid, and that is administered in a way that we are unsure of the results. We still do not know, over a five year program, when this money is meant to come forward. It is not as if this crisis came about all of a sudden. It is not as if hurricane Katrina and the spike in energy prices was unexpected.

There was a sound and profound knowledge that energy would continue, in its traditional forms, to get more expensive, that our supply, while being exposed, in the tar sands would begin to dry up, and that the energy demands of the world would continue to increase.

Therefore, the security of this country, the efficiency and productivity of our economy, and the security of Canadians who are just struggling to get by, depends upon us as members of Parliament making sound decisions. This represents intelligent investments in our energy and developing a strategy whereby we can describe this future to Canadians. This will allow us to describe how the mix of energy would be both sustainable with respect to Kyoto and beyond that, and climate change in general. It would also lead to a greater efficiency in economy, providing the types of jobs that we want people in this country to have, and people's children in this country to have. I would suggest that this bill does not address that in any respect.

The last point I would like to make before wrapping up is that there must be a profound understanding of who these resources belong to. In this debate, when we talk about energy, energy security and supply, we often times move to a laissez-faire market-driven mentality, which works in some instances. However, it ignores any concept of sovereignty and any concept of what it is to be Canadian. It also ignores what it means to be blessed with the land that we have been endowed with, and the incredible resources that we have, both traditional carbon and the new energy resources.

This endowment is both a responsibility and it is something to be cherished. The Canadian government, if no other body, needs to be making decisions through legislation and through investment that protects that endowment, that ensures it will continue to serve Canadians for generations to come, and this, beyond all else, should be the focus of all our decisions in this place.

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca B.C.

Liberal

Keith Martin LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence

Madam Speaker, my friend's comments are a bit divorced from reality. One of the things that was proposed to the government in terms of reducing the cost to individuals was to reduce the taxes at the pump. As I said before, we had a choice of whether to do that. We chose not to do it because it would have given a direct financial tax benefit to the gas companies and that was not fair.

What have we done? We have centred the benefits to the individual, to the Canadian public and to the user, which is what our objective was, to help the public by putting money in their pockets.

On the productivity issue, the member may not be aware that our government has reduced taxes to individuals by $100 billion. Is that the end? No, it is not the end because we are going to continue to approach the issue of productivity to ensure Canada, Canadians and Canadian companies can compete internationally.

The second point I want to make is on the issue of corporate tax cuts. Does the member balk at corporate tax cuts? Yes he does because the NDP is against it. Are we against corporate tax cuts? No, we want to ensure Canadian companies are on a competitive tax basis with other companies. If we did anything less, if we penalized Canadian companies by elevating the taxes to corporations, as the NDP would, what would we be doing? We would be hammering the Canadian economy, reducing employment, increasing unemployment and reducing money in the pockets of Canadians, and that is not acceptable.

We reduced corporate taxes so far from 28% to 21%. The individual tax cuts and the corporate tax cuts to keep our businesses competitive are just the start. Are we doing more? Yes, we are.

Does the member not approve of Canada, Canadians and the government making sure Canadian companies are on a level playing field and on a competitive tax basis based on a competitive tax base with their competitors internationally?

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

Madam Speaker, the parliamentary secretary asks if I balk, which I believe is a baseball metaphor. I suggest he just threw all of us a wild pitch.

The question about the corporate tax cuts in general, if he would like to address that and perhaps even listen to the response to his question, I am recalling back to the last federal campaign. The Conservative Party, to its credit, actually spoke about its plan for corporate tax cuts in some measures. The Liberal Party, what I remember from the debates that I engaged in with the candidates in my riding and the national debates and the literature that went about, mentioned nothing about this. When they arrived in Parliament, lo and behold, the tax cuts were there. The Leader of the Opposition felt that he did not need to hear the whole budget speech before getting out in the middle and applauding the government on the budget and the surprising corporate tax cuts.

We put a halt to that and asked for sound investments to be made on some things that I think all members in the House agree with around the environment, for which our investment is used in this bill, ironies of ironies.

The member is proposing apples and oranges when he talks about one of the most profitable sectors of our economy. We do not begrudge them this. We congratulate them on making lots of money. However I fail to see how the $1.3 billion to $4 billion given right now in subsidies to the industry, such as the Shells, Petro-Canadas and other companies making huge profits, helps Canadians.

Why subsidize this and why ask a question when he is not willing to listen to the answer?

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

David Anderson Liberal Victoria, BC

Madam Speaker, the first objective of the bill is to give financial assistance to low income seniors and low income families with children. Its second objective is to help families to reduce their heating bills and accelerate the transfer of funds to municipalities. Its third objective is to increase transparency and accountability on the market.

Those are the three basic objectives of the bill. As outlined in a number of news releases prepared by the committee that presented us with the legislation, the total bill for this would be $2.438 billion and, of that, we find that new funding is marked down as $1.333 billion. In other words, there is a substantial amount from existing systems that would go into this particular legislation.

With respect to the issue of who should receive the energy cost benefit of almost $600 million, that is being discussed at length. Obviously some people feel that it should be a wider net. Some people feel that this is the most appropriate one given the difficulty of getting out such cheques in a short time before the winter. That debate can go on forever depending on the number of constituents one would like to add into the mix, but it is clearly designed for low income Canadians, particularly those with families, and seniors who happen to be on the government assistance program.

Putting aside that large chunk of money, which is a successful approach, I should simply point out that this is in anticipation of future costs in the coming year and is essentially an increase in their disposable income of that $250 and is something they can spend as they wish. It is essentially an increase in the payment by the Government of Canada to these individuals. It is not linked to them producing receipts, for example, for energy payments. I think it is important and it is a good thing that we allow them that freedom of choice.

When we get into some of the other elements of the program, low income retrofit and public transit, we get into areas where money has been promised before. What we are really doing in these areas is advancing that larger context that was discussed in the budget and also by the Minister of the Environment in the months gone by. This is essentially putting forward a little more in the area of giving energy efficiency for public buildings, private homes, public transit, et cetera.

It is quite important to have a look at this. If we look at the numbers we realize that we are still dealing with very small numbers of, let us say, the public buildings in Canada, the buildings of municipalities, universities, schools, hospitals and things of that nature. I doubt whether 5% of those buildings will be aided by this program.

Similarly, if we look at the commercial buildings that are in the program, I think we will find a similar figure. It may be greater than 5% but it would not be a great deal more.

The number of homes expected to benefit is still substantially below 10% of the 11.5 million apartments or detached dwellings that we have in Canada. The issue that I put--

Energy Costs Assistance Measures ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)

I am sorry to interrupt the member at this point in his debate but you will have 16 minutes left at the continuation of the debate.

The House resumed from October 20 consideration of the motion, and of the amendment.

FirefightersPrivate Members' Business

5:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)

It being 5:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the amendment to Motion No. 153.

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the amendment, which was agreed to on the following division:)

FirefightersPrivate Members' Business

6:05 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I declare the amendment carried.

The next question is on the main motion, as amended.

(The House divided on the motion, as amended, which was agreed to on the following division:)

FirefightersPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

I declare the motion, as amended, carried.

The House resumed from October 21 consideration of the motion, and of the amendment.

Queensway Carleton HospitalPrivate Members' Business

6:15 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

The House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the amendment to Motion No. 135 under private members' business.

(The House divided on the amendment, which was negatived on the following division:)