Debates of Oct. 3rd, 2005

Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act

[The Deputy Speaker]

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, National Defence.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will begin with a little aside. I would simply like to say to the hon. member who just spoke that my memory of the clause by clause review of this bill is not the same. I think that everyone contributed. We knew that the work of the House was wrapping up. Every member of the committee wanted this bill to be ready for the House when it reconvened.

Several members of the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates have already spoken and raised several points that I too would like to address. I think it is important to highlight a few of these points.

I feel it is important to remind those watching us of one thing. It is not always easy for them to watch us on various stations, nor is it easy for us to address them on relatively technical matters. I remind them that this bill establishes a procedure for the disclosure of wrongdoings in the public sector, including the protection of persons who disclose the wrongdoings. This bill is the result of an initiative that I will now take the time to describe.

In 2001, the Policy on the Internal Disclosure of Information Concerning Wrongdoing in the Workplace was approved. It was commonly referred to as the internal disclosure policy. In the meantime, the public service integrity officer position was created. That was in 2001.

In 2003, we saw the Values and Ethics Code for the Public Service come into effect. Also in 2003, the integrity officer I was referring to recommended in his annual report, in light of the difficulty he had carrying out his mandate, the implementation of a new legislative scheme applicable to the entire public service. This recommendation was approved by the Auditor General herself.

Then, the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, in its 13th report—I did not have the pleasure of being an MP at the time—entitled “Study of the Disclosure of Wrongdoing (Whistleblowing)”, recommended that the government introduce legislation to make it easier for workers to disclose wrongdoing in the federal public service and to protect whistleblowers.

That was the genesis of Bill C-25, which died on the order paper, and we all know why. In October 2004, the government introduced Bill C-11, which is before us today.

I mention this chronology to demonstrate that even a policy of disclosure and even a relatively well fleshed-out code were largely insufficient tools, in the very opinion, by the way, of the person who was appointed integrity officer and, by extension, of the Auditor General. She also would have liked to see legislation.

Those tools were inadequate. In my opinion, which is shared by others, the main cornerstone missing was confidence. What was needed for us to have a valid tool was for the general public to have confidence in this law, but more specifically that disclosers have confidence in the disclosure mechanism and in the protection that was offered to them from the beginning to the end of the process. There was even a need, in cases where there might have been reprisals, for them to be confident that there would be mechanisms to protect them or to redress reprisal measures which might eventually be taken against them.

In short, the discloser must have confidence, first, that the very disclosure mechanisms are rigorous, in the same fashion as inquiry mechanisms are. As mentioned by some colleagues, the fact that the responsible person, namely the integrity officer in the civil service, will be an officer of Parliament gives all its credibility to this process.

The discloser must also have confidence that his or her integrity will be protected. That person must be confident that he or she will be protected should there be reprisals because of the disclosure and thus, that there will also be well-fleshed-out protection mechanisms.

This bill—it seems to me—appropriately takes into account those two aspects. In that sense, my colleagues were saying this morning that it represented a significant step forward and I feel they are right.

Once this bill is passed, it will be critically important that an integrity commissioner for the public service be appointed. Naturally, disclosure must be made in good faith.

In this respect, allow me to digress. This fall, I felt very concerned. On various radio stations, I heard radio hosts make very valid comments overall, reflecting a relatively high degree of cynicism toward this bill. “Would it not be perfectly normal for any public servant in any situation to make a disclosure?” they asked, “That is their job”. It struck me that these people, both in the private and the public sector, did not have a good grasp of the reality of what a burden it can be to make a disclosure, and particularly to live with the reprisal and all that comes with it.

Under whistleblower protection, reprisals cannot be taken against public servants. I want to stress—not to toot our own horn—that, while all members of the committee have worked on this, the Bloc Québécois gave it special attention. In particular, the Bloc claims responsibility for having transitional clauses included in this bill. I was and still am convinced that, the organization in which a public servant works being relatively small, whatever the nature of the disclosure, it will not be long before people figure out who the whistleblower is. It is therefore important, in my opinion, that transitional measures are in place so that, from the start, the head of that organization, be it the deputy minister or whoever else, can tell this government entity that immediate steps will be taken to ensure that the public servant in question can work elsewhere.

As far as I am concerned, this has to be done, even if it means paying this person to stay at home because he or she made a disclosure. A civil servant must never be victimized because of this legislation and its requirements. I was very pleased that all my colleagues approved this provision, among others.

When this bill has been passed, the legislation will work only when all departments and agencies really “promote ethical practices in the public sector” and “a positive environment for disclosing wrongdoings”. I find that phrase a bit odd, but there it is. People must feel free to disclose if they have a substantial doubt in good faith. This will not take concrete form unless and until a rigorous and detailed broad scale awareness program is carried out . This will, of course, have to encompass the entire public service, in conjunction with—and I cannot emphasize that enough—the various unions representing the employees, because they are equally involved.

While it will not be a cure-all, this bill ought to make it possible to raise the public's level of confidence in its democratic institutions. It will definitely protect the public purse and, let us hope, will prevent any more scandals and other flagrant cases of using public funds for purposes other than those for which they are intended. It will therefore oblige governance to be far more tightly controlled.

This is a tool with both a defensive and an offensive aspect. It is, moreover, important to note that no one will be above this law. Even the public service integrity officer could be investigated in connection with a disclosure. At such time, clause 14 in motion 4, one of the tabled documents, clearly indicates precisely at which point the Auditor General herself would investigate, and thus would on that occasion play the role of the commissioner.

In conclusion, it will be worthwhile for all members of this House to study the annual report the commissioner will be presenting, at the appropriate time, and to gauge the way this tool is evolving, based not only on statistics, but also on two things: the impact of its implementation and the recommendations made by the president and what systemic problems giving rise to reprehensible acts are identified.

The provisions in the bill on the minister's obligation to carry out a five-year review for submission to both Houses constitute a sign of the committee's desire for the disclosure mechanisms and the protection of whistleblowers to adapt to new realities and new issues as they arise.

[Marc Godbout, Liberal, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I commend the hon. member for Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques for her excellent presentation and her exemplary work at the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

There was one thing all parties could agree on in improving Bill C-11 and that was the fact that the commissioner needed to be entirely independent.

As for the testimony, I call on the hon. member for Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques to stress how important it was, especially to the Public Service Alliance, for the commissioner to have complete impartiality and how all the parties agreed on this almost right away during the discussions. I would like her to elaborate on what was said at the parliamentary committee.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member. Seriously, I am not kidding when I say that five or ten minutes would not be enough time to really deal with all the representations that we heard. These representations were precisely to the effect that—and I will put it the way it was mentioned to us—it should not be the incumbent, but the position of President of the Public Service which should have this responsibility. In this respect, I agree with the member who just put the question to me, particularly regarding the fact that—for reasons which, in certain respects, were unknown to me—the perception is that, by virtue of his or her mandate, the president is not someone who is neutral. That was the position of the Bloc Québécois, and it was based on the existence of a doubt, given the hierarchy in place.

So, we began to make representations to the President of Treasury Board, on behalf of all those who were coming to us. Indeed, it was necessary, for the benefit of this legislation, that it be an officer of Parliament just like other officers of Parliament, so that public servants would have total confidence in the process. That process must be used. This legislation was not created only to be left unused. But in order for it to be used, in order for people to have confidence in the process, and in order to ensure transparency, we had to make this request and we were all pleased when it was met.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, under clause 55, which is consequential amendment to the Access to Information Act that was referred to by one of the speakers as the “cover-up clause”, the clause basically states that information gathered during an investigation may be withheld under the Access to Information Act for five years if it is expected to lead to the identification of a public servant who made a disclosure under the act.

The Conservative member who spoke on behalf of his party suggested that this clause should be eliminated. I thought that as part of the witnesses and the concerns about the anonymity of people, it would be very important that this clause stay. In fact, the Auditor General, under her investigatory powers, has a 20-year protection under the release of information under investigation.

I wonder if the member would share her views on whether this clause should stay.

[Louise Thibault, Bloc, Rimouski—Témiscouata, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I could provide an answer in three seconds. It is very simple. We took part in this work and we agreed, during the clause by clause review, on the content of this legislation. We will see as time goes on. I would certainly not ask for changes today. As the hon. member mentioned when he made his comparison, it is generally 20 years. We managed to bring in down to five years. The bill provides for a five-year review. Therefore, we will be able to see very quickly if we were right to include this provision, or to not shorten that period even more. I have faith in the process and in the clauses that we just put together to create this act, and I am totally satisfied with it.

[Benoît Sauvageau, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I think that you would find unanimous consent to amend a section of the bill. The amendment would read as follows:

That Bill C-11, in Clause 21, be amended by replacing, in the French version, line 22 on page 12 with the following: “fait l'objet de représailles pour avoir divulgué de”.

And that is all. That will correct a concordance omission in the present text of the bill. It will simply replace the word “dénoncé” with the word “divulgué” as in the rest of the bill. I think that you will find unanimous consent to approve that amendment

[The Deputy Speaker]

Does the hon. member for Repentigny have the unanimous consent of the House to move the amendment?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The House has heard the terms of the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Amendment agreed to)

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I too am pleased to speak on behalf of Bill C-11. I appreciate the hon. member's amendment because it sets the tone for just how conducive and cooperative the passage of this was through the committee stages.

As previous members have already explained, the government operations and estimates committee worked hard to strengthen the so-called whistleblowing legislation to ensure it would meet the needs of public service employees today and into the future. I would like to provide a few more details on the amendments that have been made.

As has been noted, the biggest issue raised in the committee's hearings was the designation of the President of the Public Service Commission as the neutral third party. She explained the committee's position and the resulting commitment of the government to propose a new independent officer of Parliament as a neutral third party for disclosures.

I applaud the committee, the witnesses who appeared and the government. This is truly a demonstration of what democracy can achieve if there is goodwill.

The work of the committee was not done with this one change. The committee and the government proposed several additional amendments to further strengthen the bill during the clause by clause review. Some hon. members have mentioned a few of these and I would like to talk a bit more about them.

The RCMP was initially excluded from the bill due to the unique and specialized nature of its operations and concerns about information security, though it would have had to establish similar disclosure regimes for its members and employees. It now explicitly is included in the bill and the committee received appropriate kudos from those parties.

In addition, other amendments were made to broaden the bill. For example, the definition of wrongdoing now includes any activity in or relating to the public sector, regardless of who carries it out. It is not restricted to an activity carried out by a public servant. As well, the proposed public sector integrity commissioner would have the discretion to undertake an investigation on the basis of information received, not only from public service employees, but also from outside the public sector.

Another amendment makes it clear that a public servant can disclose any information he or she believes could show that a wrongdoing has been or is about to be committed, or that a public servant has been asked to commit a wrongdoing. In other words, the bill requires less certainty in the mind of a public servant about a potential wrongdoing before he or she can disclose information about it. These amendments significantly enlarge the scope of the bill.

Other amendments strengthen the protection of public servants making disclosures. For example, the bill would allow for providing temporary assignments to persons making disclosures or persons who have been the target of reprisals.

The bill had required the Treasury Board to establish a public sector-wide code of conduct and indicated that organizations could also establish their own complementary codes. An amendment during the clause by clause review now makes it obligatory, not optional, that organizations establish their own codes of conduct.

Though the committee adopted several additional amendments, time limits me to mentioning just one more set. In order to reflect the positive spirit of the bill that the committee was trying to achieve, the French version replaced the more pejorative “dénonciation” and “dénonciateur” with “divulgation” and “divulgateur”. This reflects our belief that disclosing information that could indicate a wrongdoing is an honourable thing to do.

As well, the definition of a protected disclosure has been changed from one that “is not frivolous, vexatious or made in bad faith”. That has been changed to one that is made in “good faith”. These wording amendments may seem minor, but the change of a few words has captured the positive light in which the committee and the government view the proposed legislation and the positive way in which they would like Canadians to understand and support its objectives.

I also would like to offer my thanks to those who took the time to appear before the committee and to the committee itself for working so diligently and cooperatively. The bill will create a positive public sector environment that will support public servants in playing their important role in serving Canadians and the public interest.

The goal was to create a strong and efficient mechanism for disclosures, one that was broad, flexible and fair. I believe this goal will meet every potential situation.

We must remember that we did not start from zero. There was a Treasury Board policy on disclosures that had served well since it was put in place in late 2001, and it was effective. However, enshrining disclosure protection in legislation is a significant step forward.

Because of the amendments, of which I spoke, it does three main things. It sets out a very broad range of circumstances in which a disclosure investigation can be launched. It includes measures to give federal public servant sector employees confidence to come forward. It promotes and supports ethical behaviour throughout the federal public sector.

A key feature involves protecting employees from reprisal. To embellish this, they include strong confidentiality provisions to protect the identity of the person making a disclosure, reasonable time to register a complaint of reprisals, provisions for the temporary assignment of employees affected by a disclosure case and the option to make reprisal complaints to labour boards that have the authority to make orders to remedy the situation. All these are aimed at giving public servants more confidence to come forward.

The fact that it is an officer of Parliament as a neutral third party is also something quite positive. It has been mentioned and spoken about by other hon. members, but I would like one thing to be emphasized. The bill makes it very clear that public servants have the option to make disclosures directly to the proposed new public sector integrity commissioner. Using this option to use an internal disclosure mechanism, I believe is something extremely positive. There are a few other examples that we could use, but the existence of these two avenues reflects the bill's third main thrust and its overall larger purpose of building a positive environment.

The bill as it exists will ensure that what may be small matters now do not have the opportunity to grow into major situations.

With all of these in view, the codes, the values for our public servants and the fact that they exist in a vast majority of honest and committed public servants, they know they can help not only Canadians but each and every one of us as legislators. I am proud to have been part of this and to have worked with members of the committee and the government. I am proud of having had the opportunity to learn from the presenters.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I said this morning that the bill in front of us is a welcome one. It is a major step towards the protection of honest civil servants.

Earlier, I heard my colleague from the Conservative Party say that very often it was the civil servants who were good workers, who were extremely honest and who really took their job to heart who noticed wrongdoings that had to be brought out into the light of day.

I also said this morning that the bill reflects demands that came mainly from the Public Service Integrity Officer. That officer has been asking for several years to have more power to be able to do more and to help people who have problems with their supervisors or because they disclosed wrongdoings. The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada also requested a legislative framework that could guide its members, who are professionals. The Institute also requested legislation to protect in all senses of the word public servants who decide to disclose wrongdoings.

The bill guarantees to a certain extent that whistleblowers will be protected. As a member of Parliament, how can I be sure that whistleblowers will be protected for a certain number of years? Even if they are transferred to a new working environment, as is proposed in the bill, what guarantee do I have that in their new place of work they will be protected from people whose friends may have had the whistle blown on them?

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, all four parties discussed this at quite considerable length to ensure that not only were the reprisal mechanisms in place to protect employees, but that it would have longevity to it.

When we went through all the possible scenarios, we had the value of being provided with a great number of witnesses who explained various processes and amendments that would help us get through this. Through that process of the details, many of the ambiguous terms have been removed. The bill is very specific about what recourse employees would have if they felt they were being subjected to reprisal. They would have places to go. The independence of the commissioner also makes it much more solid. The atmosphere, attitude and environment ensures that employees have credibility. It encourages them to come forward.

In terms of transference, I believe that the legislation would do that if an individual moved to another department.

[Louis Plamondon, Bloc, Richelieu, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have a quick question, since there is not much time left.

I want to ask the hon. member, who is a member of the most corrupt government in Canadian history, if he believes that this bill would have been possible without the sponsorship scandal and the pressure exerted by the opposition, particularly in terms of the independent commissioner.

[Ken Boshcoff, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in the spirit of cooperation the committee to a large extent tried to avoid that type of invective. I believe the plans were on the books to bring this type of legislation forward. I feel very proud to have been part of a government that did that. The fact that we managed to do that in a minority situation confirms that we expect the same attitude to prevail and we hope for unanimous passage of Bill C-11.

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-11, the whistleblower protection.

I speak with some trepidation on the bill. I have not been here quite as long as Mr. Speaker. However, some of the stories I have heard over the last eight years about the abuses in some departments leaves something to be desired. I will get into some specific examples of the culture that has permeated within the Liberal Party, which is quite shocking and appalling.

Before I do that, I would like to acknowledge the Conservative member for Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry. He took a bill which we could not support and, through a lot of hard work, he managed to get enough amendments so there will be some meaningful aspects to the whistleblower protection.

In its first form from the Liberal government, the whistleblower's report would go to cabinet or the minister. Now it comes to Parliament. There have been some meaningful amendments that will allow us to at least support it and send it off to committee.

Again, I do this with a certain amount of skepticism. I will explain why. I will give an example which is not exactly about whistleblower protection, but it has all the elements of what that party has created.

I have been working on a file in my riding for a number of years. It is called the JDS tax file. This situation is where hundreds of employees were wrongfully taxed on a phantom income of which they never saw one thin dime. It has been in the media and the news nationally. For a long time it has been in the local news.

It was incomprehensible. Some of these people were facing tax bills of $200,000 or $300,000 on what I call a phantom income. These people never saw this income, yet Revenue Canada was aggressively pursuing them. They were desperate. They came to see me. We took up their cause and we worked on this for a number of years. This goes back to when the current Prime Minister was then the minister of finance. We had numerous meetings with him as the minister of finance and some of his staff members, such as Karl Littler. We were close to a solution.

All this time these people were hanging on to a glimmer of hope, a thread that this could possibly be solved and they would not be put into financial ruin.

As the story unfolded, we had lots of promises and empty rhetoric, but then we got into the last election. During the last election some of these people had an opportunity to speak directly to the Prime Minister, one on one with cameras rolling. This is all a matter of public record. The Prime Minister was fully aware of the file because he had met with me on at least two or three occasions. He knew that they were tax people. He said that they would fix it, that he had told Ralph to take care of it. They got passed off from one minister to another minister. It was a very frustrating time for these people. I will get to the element of the whistleblower protection.

I shake my head in disbelief that the government would do this. I have to question its sincerity and genuineness in this.

Numerous promises to fix this situation are on the public record. There were numerous meetings with other members of Parliament. The member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca apparently became involved. Privately and on the radio he told these people that he had an agreement in place, that a deal had been struck and that their problems were solved. Then all that fell apart, and these families face financial ruin.

To add insult to injury, one family in particular, the Woods family, has been very vocal. They have been in the media. They have been telling their story. They are not being partisan. They are not on one political side or the other. They are telling their story about how they have been treated by Revenue Canada and how no one on the government has listened to their concerns.

They were frustrated beyond our wildest imaginations. Everything they worked for was on the line. This went on for three or four years. The government kept dangling carrots in front of them that it was going to resolve the matter, that a solution was imminent. We heard language from the Prime Minister's staff that they had advised Revenue Canada to cut the motor on these files. The member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca would tell them that a deal had been struck that they would only be paying pennies on the dollar. This file has been going on for three or four years. What did the government have the gall to do?

The family that spoke up, the family that was in the media trying to get the public's attention, the Liberal government punished them the harshest. The ones who were silent and were not out in the media—I do not think were treated fairly at all; they should never have been paying taxes in the first place—did not have to pay the back interest. Some of them paid 80¢ on the dollar, some paid 60¢ on the dollar, but all of the ones who never spoke up virtually did not have to pay the full amount. The families that spoke out, the whistleblowers, the families that went public, the government berated them and charged them back interest.

[An hon. member]

It has nothing to do with whistleblowers.

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I heard someone say that this has nothing to do with whistleblowers. It has everything to do with whistleblowers and the culture of that party. That is what I am talking about. The family that went public and brought the issue to the forefront was punished severely, unfairly and unjustly by the Liberal government.

The government dithered away for four years trying to resolve this matter and the government had the gall to charge them interest for all that time. It is unconscionable. Never mind the principle. Why? Because they went public to the media and criticized the government. That is how the government responded. They ended up paying the entire phantom tax bill when they never saw a penny of the income, and tens of thousands of dollars in interest because the government dithered for four years.

The member for Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca said to me and said it on public radio that they were going to pay pennies on the dollar, and then he denied saying it. The problem is he said it on an open line radio. There is an audiotape of it. The government's response was to chastise the families.

The Minister of National Revenue, fully aware of the file, was out in Victoria in the middle of September, only a few weeks ago. One of the families called in and spoke to him on air. He wanted no part of that, “Let me take your number off the air and I will get back to you”. Have they had a call yet? No. Does he care about these people? No. Is he a Liberal? Yes.

That is why, when we talk about whistleblower protection, maybe it is about time. That party has been in power for over 10 years. It is coming up on 12 years. We have witnessed one scandal after another scandal. Billions of dollars have been wasted. Money is being shoveled back to their Liberal Party friends. We have watched the whole sponsorship scandal where suitcases of cash have been sprinkled throughout ridings in Quebec. We need whistleblower protection, because how are they going to treat the people who dare to speak up?

This is all a matter of public record. It is all a matter of fact. Well I am sorry, it is a little too late to salvage those Liberals. What they have done to the Canadian people and the taxpayers, how they have treated their tax money with utter disdain, one scandal after another, and the corruption, and giving defeated Liberal cabinet ministers like Mr. Dingwall plump posts, it is outrageous.

Am I skeptical about this? Yes. Will we support the bill again at committee? Yes. However, no legislation can fix the way the Liberals have treated Canadians for the last 11 years. The Liberals need to be thrown out of office today.

[Gary Carr, Liberal, Halton, ON]

Madam Speaker, from listening to the earlier speeches of the member's colleagues, I believe they will be supporting the bill. Many of his colleagues said that it was a good bill.

Having listened to the member's presentation this afternoon, one of the things that did not come out is how the member will be voting on the bill. I take it as a result of the circumstances that he outlined to the House today that this bill would help some of the people involved.

My question is a very simple one. Now that the member has finished his speech, how will he be voting on this bill?

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Speaker, as I said earlier, we will be supporting this bill. I applauded the Conservative member for Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry for bringing forward amendments that would make the bill at least to the point where we could send the bill to committee and try to get further revisions. It is a step in the right direction, absolutely.

However, it is almost shameful that this is what is needed after 11 years of scandals, to have whistleblower protection. The Liberals have been at the centre of all the scandals, every single one. It does not matter, the political interference; I can name file after file. Yes, sadly, we do need this type of legislation.

Would it help those people? No, because the Liberal Party has a very narrow focus on who it can support. The Liberals have left the option for the cabinet to exclude certain crown corporations, “Let us just have a look here. Maybe we played with these crown corporations; we had better exclude them. Heaven forbid, we would not want any whistleblowers coming forward”. They have the power in this legislation to exclude specific crown corporations.

Would it help the people I referred to? No. Because the Liberals would come down with an iron club, club them over the head, take away their home and everything they have. Even after making promises to the public, with the cameras rolling, the Prime Minister during the election would say anything just to get a vote, but when the rubber hit the road, his words were hollow. They were empty. They were meaningless. His words were not worth anything. He knows it. The people in greater Victoria know this, because it is all public record. Clips have been shown on television of the Prime Minister speaking. Thank goodness there were cameras to catch all of it. That is why I am so deeply offended.

To answer the member's question, we will support it. We will try to improve it at committee. We will try to amend it even further so that when whistleblowers come forward and expose the waste, the corruption, the money that goes to the Liberals' friends, that goes to defeated Liberal cabinet ministers, yes, we will do everything we can to protect the Canadian taxpayer.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would like to help the member correct the record.

Bill C-11 was referred to committee after first reading. It has already been there. The member maybe misspoke himself with regard to that.

The other matter he raised was with regard to crown corporations. All crown corporations and agencies are subject to this bill. The only exclusions whatsoever with regard to Bill C-11 are the military and CSIS.

Unfortunately, the member is not on the committee and has not had an opportunity to read the bill, but I want to assure him that Bill C-11 had the unanimous support of all parties at committee. We worked very hard to make Bill C-11 a good piece of legislation. Hopefully, now that we are at report stage and second reading, it will pass this place very quickly on behalf of all public servants and Canadians.

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Speaker, I meant to say that we will try to amend the bill even further to ensure that it is in the best interests of the Canadian people.

With respect to the cabinet, let me say this. Cabinet can arbitrarily remove several government bodies from the protection of Bill C-11. They are listed in the schedule to the bill. To suggest that everybody is included absolutely is not accurate. In fact, they include the Bank of Canada, the Public Service Pension Commission and the CPP Commission. There are bodies that cabinet can exclude. They are listed in a schedule to the bill. I advise the member to get a copy and read it.

[Marc Godbout, Liberal, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Madam Speaker, it is a great privilege to speak today on behalf of the amended Bill C-11, the proposed Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act.

I would like to add my voice to those of my other hon. colleagues, and commend the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates for its excellent work on Bill C-11. We could almost talk about a collective will to achieve something that may not be perfect but that has been greatly improved over the original version, which had been under consideration for a number of years. This collective will was also determined to have this Parliament adopt this legislation as soon as possible.

I do not want to spend a lot of time walking through the history of this bill, but I do want to remind hon. members that indeed it has a long history, one that goes back to the Sub-Committee on Whistleblowing of the government operations and estimates committee in 2003.

Bill C-11 is an evolution of a previous disclosure bill that received much input and debate, but which did not progress through Parliament due to the election call in the spring of 2004. And the bill that is before us today is an amended and, I would add, improved version of the Bill C-11 we saw at first reading. In other words, the disclosure bill has been the subject of intense scrutiny and consideration in the House and in committee. Involving all sides of the House and dozens of witnesses, debate over what Canada's disclosure legislation should look like was long, open and fruitful. The bill we have arrived at is the product of that debate.

I also want to underline to hon. members that if and when the bill is passed, our involvement in this disclosure legislation will not end. Hon. members will hear more over the coming months and years about various elements of the bill and will have a role in how many of them play out. We will still have the opportunity and the responsibility to keep tabs on how the legislation is being implemented. Let me explain.

As other hon. members have noted, the proposed public servant disclosure protection act requires the Treasury Board to establish, in consultation with employee unions and bargaining agents, a code of conduct for the public sector. The importance of this code cannot be underestimated as a serious breach of the code is considered a wrongdoing under the act. Once the code has been developed, it will be tabled in each House at least 30 days before it comes into force. Parliamentarians will have the opportunity to review the code of conduct before it comes into force.

In addition, if the bill passes, a public sector integrity commissioner will need to be selected and appointed. I must say that we had a thorough discussion on that very subject. We had many representations to that effect and all parties agreed to submit the amendment to the House.

The appointment is approved by the House and the Senate and thus parliamentarians would have a participatory role in the process of selecting the right candidate for this very important position.

As an officer of Parliament reporting to Parliament, the proposed new public sector integrity commissioner will report directly to Parliament, that is, to hon. members of the House as well as the other chamber. The commissioner will be accountable not to a minister, but to us in this House.

The commissioner would report annually to the House on the disclosure investigations undertaken during the year and on any related issues of concern. The annual report would be reviewed in committee. In addition, the proposed public sector integrity commissioner would be free to make special reports to this and the other chamber, at any time, on any subject related to his or her mandate.

Unfortunately, I will not have enough time to get into some very important clauses of Bill C-11. Just the same, I would like to call to the attention of members clause 8, which defines wrongdoings. The standing committee took a lot of time and heard many witnesses to develop the most accurate definition possible of what could represent a wrongdoing.

Obviously, it does not cover all government activities. But I think that we kept the definition short to prevent diluting the legislation per se, had we gone into too many details.

Hon. members should take a look at clause 20 as well. I personally met with representatives of the Public Service Alliance of Canada on many occasions on this topic, to ensure that this legislation, Bill C-11, protects whistleblowers. There have been problems in the past. We consulted other jurisdictions and other countries. What we have now may not be perfect, but we can take the next five years to examine, as other members said, how the legislation has worked and make changes as required. What is really important is that those of our civil servants who do disclose wrongdoings have the full protection of the law.

And what about the independence of the commissioner who will be reporting directly to Parliament? Once again, this was a request from our civil servants, which we understood well. I was pleased to see the government amendment in this respect, which will be part of the consideration of the bill by this House.

Finally, the bill also requires a review of the proposed act five years after its implementation. The proposed legislation specifies that an independent review of the act, its administration and its operation must be undertaken and the review presented to Parliament. This will allow Parliament to assess how well the legislation has worked, whether there have been unintended consequences and whether any changes need to be made.

I raise these issues to impress upon hon. members that Bill C-11 has evolved through the hard work, input and expertise of many individuals and organizations over the past few years. The result, in my view, is that the amended bill has met the government's goal of being the best bill it can be.

At the same time, if the bill passes—and I sincerely hope it does—we in this House will still have an important role, to ensure that it is implemented well and that it lives up to its potential.

We will have the responsibility for exercising an ongoing thoughtful and responsive role towards the commissioner.

We will also have the ongoing responsibility to ensure that this legislation supports federal public sector employees, today and into the future, to play their important role in supporting ministers, under law, and to serve the public interest.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Madam Speaker, I have been listening to the debates all day.

We are turning this bill into a model bill. It still needs to be polished, but it is a great bill. We must commend the hon. members who worked on this committee.

That said, I still have not received an answer to my question or the comments I made this morning. I will ask my question more directly, then maybe I will get an answer.

Public servants have asked for unequivocal protection, wall-to-wall protection, if I may say so. An employee of the federal public service who discloses wrongdoing will be protected beyond the moment of the incident in question. They will be protected even if they are transferred to another establishment or another sector. What provisions have been made for this? What unequivocal protection does this bill provide public service employees?