House of Commons Hansard #145 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was price.
Michel Gauthier Bloc Roberval, QC
Mr. Speaker, I completely agree with the Prime Minister. What has been established is that all the answers given by the Liberal government in response to our 441 questions were wrong; all the explanations it gave us were wrong; all the statements that it had complied with the rules of Treasury Board and good management were wrong.
Does the Prime Minister realize that he no longer has the credibility to do the necessary clean up, and that he should let the public judge him?
Jean Lapierre LiberalMinister of Transport
Mr. Speaker, we understand the Bloc Québécois' dismay. However, I would remind him that, on page 430, Justice Gomery states, “Mr. Martin, whose role as Finance Minister did not involve him in the supervision of spending by the PMO or PWGSC, is entitled, like other Ministers in the Quebec caucus, to be exonerated from any blame for carelessness or misconduct”.
That is Justice Gomery's answer, that is his conclusion. The Bloc members are rejecting it because it does not suit them.
Michel Gauthier Bloc Roberval, QC
Mr. Speaker, I would encourage the Minister of Transport to not choose only that part of Judge Gomery's response that suits him. On page 47, Judge Gomery also wrote that Treasury Board had abdicated its responsibilities and had not done its job. And the Prime Minister was its vice-chair. This too is written in Judge Gomery's report.
My question is for the Prime Minister. The public has serious doubts about this matter of his involvement. If he thinks that Judge Gomery has absolved him of it, let him—
Jean Lapierre LiberalMinister of Transport
Mr. Speaker, if the member is after other quotes, here is one. Judge Gomery wrote at page 20 of the summary: “The Department of Finance and its Minister have no oversight role for other departments' expenditures other than setting the financial context via the fiscal framework”.
This is the exact opposite of what the Bloc has been saying for months and months. I would ask the member and his leader to offer their apologies for the inaccurate remarks they have been making for months.
Jack Layton NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
Mr. Speaker, it is a sad and shameful day to watch the Liberal benches celebrate on a day when they are being forced to give $1 million of taxpayers' money back to the taxpayers. Is there no sense of shame?
Judge Gomery has shown today that there is a culture of “entitlement” in the Liberal Party.
Let us look at the Prime Minister's record: Mario Laguë, ambassador; Dennis Dawson, Francis Fox and Art Eggleton, senators; David Dingwall and Richard Mahoney, unregistered lobbyists.
What responsibility will he assume for the continuing culture—
Paul Martin LiberalPrime Minister
Mr. Speaker, I must remind the leader of the NDP that the Liberal Party created the Gomery commission. We did this because we wanted the facts. Now, we have them.
The leader of the NDP just said that $1 million will be repaid. That decision belongs to the Liberal Party of Canada. As a matter of fact, we decided that we would put money in a trust account. Since the amount has now exceeded that figure, we have added to the fund.
We made this decision, because we believe that this is the way that politics should be conducted in Canada.
Jack Layton NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
I get it now, Mr. Speaker. We are supposed to be thankful that the Liberal Party is giving back $1 million to Canadians. Give me a break. Seventy-eight per cent of the Liberals clapping were members of Jean Chrétien's caucus, including the Prime Minister. Who says he accepts Justice Gomery's findings?
If we look at what is going on in the Liberal Party today, we see the same practices: Mario Laguë, Dennis Dawson, Francis Fox, entitled; Art Eggleton, David Dingwall, entitled; Richard Mahoney, entitled. What about condemning the politics of cronyism to history? When is it going to happen?
Paul Martin LiberalPrime Minister
Mr. Speaker, I would simply ask the hon. member to take a look at what the government has done in terms of the way that improvements were made, in terms of the whole question of audits--
Sponsorship ProgramOral Questions
The Speaker
Order, please. The Prime Minister was asked a question and he is giving his answer. Hon. members are going to want to hear the answer.
The right hon. Prime Minister has the floor.
Paul Martin Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that substantial improvements have to be brought to the way government operates. The fact is that is why, under the President of the Treasury Board and the Minister for Public Works and Government Services, those extensive changes have been brought in. It is also why it is so important that we await the second report of Mr. Justice Gomery. Building on our reforms, that is precisely what he hopes to do. I would hope that all hon. members are looking forward to that.
Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS
Mr. Speaker, what is missing from Justice Gomery's report is true political accountability for the theft and corruption that was identified and verified.
The Prime Minister said he gave the broadest possible mandate to Justice Gomery. As usual, that is not true. Absent was an examination of chapter 5 of the Auditor General's report which dealt with polling contracts between his office and of course the Earnscliffe firm. There was no accountability or no ability to look at civil or criminal liability. Yet David Dingwall may get severance. Francis Fox gets appointed. We know that Art Eggleton gets appointed.
How can Canadians trust the government to clean up its own mess in the Liberal Party when the Prime Minister continues the culture of corruption and entitlement every day?
Scott Brison LiberalMinister of Public Works and Government Services
Mr. Speaker, once again in the area that Justice Gomery was investigating troubles all of us. The types of activities were wrong and went on for far too long. But let us never forget that in fact it is this Prime Minister who is making the fundamental changes to the culture of government to prevent this from happening again. He appointed Justice Gomery. We have supported the work of Justice Gomery. He tackled the problem head on when other leaders would have ducked the problem.
We respect this Prime Minister who is doing the right job, getting the truth for Canadians and changing the culture of government for generations of Canadians.
Peter MacKay Conservative Central Nova, NS
Mr. Speaker, the abuses go on to this day. The difference is now they got caught.
At least $5.4 million was stolen from Canadian taxpayers and made its way into Liberal Party coffers. That is reason to believe that the amount could be higher. The Liberal Party appears prepared to fork over a portion of that dirty money that it stole but Canadians will believe that when they see it.
Forensic auditors say that at least $45 million is still unaccounted for. There must be a full judicial determination of the amount that was stolen from Canadian taxpayers.
I ask the Prime Minister, when will he direct his attorney general to commence a lawsuit against the Liberal Party and its riding associations to recover the full amount of money that was stolen from Canadian taxpayers?
Scott Brison LiberalMinister of Public Works and Government Services
Mr. Speaker, once again the Prime Minister has been clear and the party has been clear that if the Liberal Party received funds inappropriately, they will be reimbursed. In fact, earlier today the Liberal Party indicated and later will be making the formal announcement that it will be repaying to the Canadian taxpayer $1.14 million.
It is interesting because the numbers that the hon. member was speaking about earlier bear no resemblance to what his leader was saying earlier today on national TV. His leader was saying that the figure is around $550,000 or $600,000. The Liberal Party is paying back $1.14 million.
Gary Lunn Conservative Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Mr. Speaker, I think they had better add a zero to that number.
Justice Gomery has accepted the evidence that envelopes of cash were sprinkled throughout Liberal ridings in Quebec. He is unable to quantify that because it is cash. There is no paper trail.
The only people who know for sure how much money was stolen are within the Liberal Party itself. These numbers have been submitted conservatively at $5.4 million.
I have to ask the government, is it prepared to instruct the Liberal Party to repay the $5.4 million of dirty money that it ran two election campaigns on?
Scott Brison LiberalMinister of Public Works and Government Services
Mr. Speaker, once again, I knew there were some caucus disunity issues over there, but the hon. member should speak to his leader who earlier today on national TV said that the number that the party should pay to the Canadian taxpayer would be around $679,000. That is what the leader of the Conservative Party said on national TV earlier today. Those members are bandying about figures that bear no resemblance to the facts.
The fact is that the Liberal Party will pay back any funds received inappropriately.
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
Mr. Speaker, ministers of the government are standing up in the House quoting from the report as though this is somehow good news for the government and for taxpayers.
It says that there is clear evidence of political involvement in the administration of the program, insufficient oversight at every level, a veil of secrecy surrounding the administration, gross overcharging by communications agencies, inflated commissions, use of the sponsorship program for other than national unity, deliberate actions to avoid compliance with federal legislation. This is a damning indictment of the government.
Taxpayers want to know, when are they going to get their money back?
Scott Brison LiberalMinister of Public Works and Government Services
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member can quote from the Gomery report because this Prime Minister appointed Justice Gomery to get to the truth for Canadians.
The fact is Justice Gomery also said that under the former Progressive Conservative administration, advertising and communications agencies having Liberal Party sympathies or connections had little or no chance of getting government business.
This Prime Minister has done the right thing by getting to the bottom of the issue and cleaning up the types of practices that have existed for generations, getting the truth for Canadians and making the fundamental changes to respect the Canadian taxpayer.
Michel Guimond Bloc Charlevoix—Montmorency, QC
Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has worked hard, right from the start, to make us believe that, if Justice Gomery has shed light on the sponsorship scandal, it is thanks to him, but if he had shown more courage, if he had spoken to Jean Chrétien, if he had been more vigilant, we would not be here and the Gomery commission would not have been necessary.
Does the Prime Minister realize that it is not thanks to him that the Gomery commission was created, but in large part because of him since he refused to do his job when he was vice-chair of Treasury Board?
Jean Lapierre LiberalMinister of Transport
Mr. Speaker, we certainly have nothing to learn about courage from this party. One thing needs to be said: what takes courage is for a prime minister to decide to abolish a sponsorship program and to charge Judge Gomery with getting to the bottom of things. The person with courage is the current Prime Minister.
Michel Guimond Bloc Charlevoix—Montmorency, QC
Mr. Speaker, on the contrary, what we have here is a Prime Minister who has abdicated his responsibility.
He accepted the basis of the sponsorship program at the February 1996 cabinet meeting. He spoke regularly with his buddy Alfonso Gagliano. As finance minister, he injected $50 million into the national unity fund, and closed his eyes to this as vice-chair of the Treasury Board.
Will the Prime Minister admit that his behaviour looks very much like deliberately turning a blind eye?
Jean Lapierre LiberalMinister of Transport
Mr. Speaker, the members of the Bloc Québécois certainly have trouble accepting the truth. They have been spreading all sorts of lies across the province for months now. What is more, last weekend, they were working on a misleading advertising campaign that they will have to withdraw because of the Gomery findings.