Debates of Nov. 3rd, 2005

Sponsorship Program

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Speaker, there is nothing more rigorous in defence of a Liberal than a recent convert.

The Prime Minister's pledge that there would be no more “Who do you know in the PMO” was just another phony promise. His democratic deficit has now widened to an integrity deficit. Dingwall broke lobbying rules and awaits his severance entitlement from the Mint. Francis Fox and Art Eggleton got their rewards with Senate appointments because of who they knew in the PMO.

The Prime Minister has not called the RCMP to investigate cases where kickback money was used by Liberals, but clearly, the culture of entitlement has continued.

Will the Prime Minister launch a lawsuit against his own party and--

[The Speaker]

The hon. Minister of Public Works and Government Services.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, as a government, we have launched lawsuits against 28 firms and individuals to recover $57 million. However beyond that typically what would happen in these cases is that the government would determine what an appropriate figure would be and what the right figure would be based on facts, in this case the facts in Justice Gomery's report. It would then sue the party if in fact the party did not pay the money.

The fact is that in this case the Liberal Party has paid the money so why would we sue it?

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has decided to ban for life a number of members of the Liberal Party, including Marc-Yvan Côté. Justice Gomery's inquiry has shown that M. Côté gave dirty money to Liberal candidates in eastern Quebec ridings in the 1997 election.

Since the Liberal Party of Canada banned Marc-Yvan Côté on the grounds that he had handed out dirty money, does the Prime Minister intend to identify those candidates who benefited from this dirty money and ban them for life, like Marc-Yvan Côté?

[Jean Lapierre, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, once again, the leader of the Bloc Québécois is trying to go further than Justice Gomery did. Justice Gomery had Marc-Yvan Côté and all the other witnesses appear before him. He got to ask all the questions he wanted to ask and he drew his conclusions. We trust Justice Gomery's conclusions and we support them. But we do not want to have a second Gomery inquiry just because the leader of the Bloc Québécois is not happy with the results of the first one.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, during Justice Gomery's inquiry, the lawyer for the Liberal Party objected to Marc-Yvan Côté naming names.

Now, the government is taking measures following the Gomery inquiry. These are announced by the Prime Minister with great fanfare. Ten individuals were banned, seven of whom are no longer members, including Marc-Yvan Côté, on the grounds of having handed out dirty money.

I assume that logic would have it that both the person who gave the money and those who received it illegally ought to be banned.

Following the Gomery inquiry and the measures that have been announced, will the government be consistent?

[Jean Lapierre, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the most consistent thing to do following Justice Gomery's inquiry is to read his report and follow his indications. Justice Gomery identified individuals who he thought were responsible for misappropriating funds. He identified them, and we banned them.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, let us be clear.

In response to the Gomery report, the Prime Minister asked the Liberal Party to ban Michel Béliveau, who had given money, and to ban Marc-Yvan Côté for life for having transported the money.

Would it also not be appropriate to dismiss in perpetuity from the Liberal Party those who received money and pocketed it?

[Jean Lapierre, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the Bloc Québécois House leader is going a little too far.

I would like him to make such accusations—that he knows people received money and put it in their pockets—outside the House. If he is serious, let him repeat this and name the people outside, rather than abuse his parliamentary privilege.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Transport has to understand that, while it is pretty serious for someone to provide money, someone to transport it and for these two to be banned by the Liberal Party, is it possible that some people received this money?

That is what I am asking him. Will he release the list of the people who received the money? They are just as guilty as the person who transported the money and the person who provided it. That is our point of view.

[Jean Lapierre, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, I realize the Bloc Québécois wants an army. Now it wants a police force to investigate instead of the RCMP, which has the Gomery report in its possession and can take whatever action it deems appropriate. We are confident the RCMP will do a proper criminal investigation. It is not up to the member to do it.

[Jack Layton, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to return to the broader question of the culture of entitlement that Justice Gomery identified, and it really speaks to the credibility of the Prime Minister, someone who speaks passionately about how he is going to end corruption, the same passion that he used when he said that he would relegate the whole practice of cronyism to history.

Does the government believe that the Prime Minister has kept his promise to end the culture of cronyism, yes or no?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Mr. Speaker, the answer to that question is quite simple. The answer is yes.

[Jack Layton, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, yes is what we are hearing. That answer has zero credibility.

The communications director of the PMO is an ambassador to Costa Rica. Losing Liberal candidates have choice posts even though the House of Commons said they should not get those posts. Liberal bagmen are in the Senate.

I would like the minister to tell me how this culture of cronyism has ended. I would like the minister to give me an example and give Canadians some proof.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Mr. Speaker, it was this Prime Minister who determined that all Canadians had the right to know what happened in relationship to the sponsorship program. It was this Prime Minister who put Mr. Justice Gomery in place. This Prime Minister accepts the findings of Mr. Justice Gomery's first report. This Prime Minister has referred that report to the RCMP. This Prime Minister has ensured that our party has written a cheque for $1.14 million to go back to the Canadian taxpayer. This Prime--

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Saanich--Gulf Islands.

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, let us talk about the findings of Justice Gomery. This Minister of Public Works has very selective memory. The Kroll audit, part of the Gomery commission, identified $40 million were still missing and unaccounted for. Justice Gomery also stated that because of the cash they could not come up with the exact number. Nobody knows for sure. We do not know the number. The only way to get the real number is to sue the Liberal Party of Canada and let it defend the numbers in court.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member once again is pulling figures out of the air. We prefer to base our analysis on Justice Gomery's facts.

We do not trust the Conservatives or the Bloc with their figures. They have talked about $45 million. They have talked about $5.4 million. They have talked about $700,000. I prefer to trust Justice Gomery. The analysis of his facts lead to a figure that is credible and right at $1.14 million, which has been paid in full to the Canadian taxpayer.

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, all that rhetoric. The minister can read Gomery's report. The Kroll audit is part of that. The Kroll audit clearly states that $40 million are still missing.

Justice Gomery also states in his report that it is impossible to give an exact number because they do not know, that there is no paper trail for the cash and that it could be millions of dollars. The Canadian public are the shareholders and they deserve every last penny to be returned. The government has no option but to sue the Liberal Party--

[The Speaker]

The hon. Minister of Public Works and Government Services.

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, once again it would be highly unusual for the Government of Canada to sue an entity that has already paid the Government of Canada what it owed.

One does not sue based on figures that are pulled out of the air. One actually takes action to defend the interests of Canadian taxpayers based on facts, and in this case the facts in Justice Gomery's report. The Kroll Lindquist audit was part of over 28 million pages of documents that Justice Gomery considered and analyzed to give us his facts.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, all the money has not been returned and that is what taxpayers want to see happen.

Two of the people who the Prime Minister wants to ban from the Liberal Party are Michel Béliveau and Jacques Corriveau. They gave $8,000 in illegal sponsorship cash to Hélène Scherrer, then a Liberal candidate and now the Prime Minister's principal secretary. Ms. Scherrer was elected as a Liberal MP with $8,000 of illegal, dirty sponsorship money. The only way taxpayers can be certain that this money will be returned is if the Prime Minister takes civil action and sues to get it back. Will he do this, yes or no?

[Scott Brison, Liberal, Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, once again, the $789,000 specifically identified by Justice Gomery's inquiry as having been improperly received, in addition to the $354,000 that was properly receipted and received from agencies against which Justice Gomery specifically assigned blame in relation to their conduct, creates a figure of $1.14 million, which has been paid in full by the Liberal Party.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the concern taxpayers have, quite frankly, if this minister has not figured it out, is that they do not trust the Liberal Party to clean up its own mess. That is the problem.

Perhaps if I put my question in French I would get an answer.

Will the Prime Minister initiate legal proceedings to recover the stolen money? Yes or no?

[Jean Lapierre, Liberal, Minister of Transport]

Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party of Canada has issued a cheque in the amount of $1.143 million to the Receiver General for Canada to cover all of the money that went to the Liberal Party inappropriately, according to Justice Gomery. This amount covers everything in the Gomery report. Every cent of it was paid.