Debates of Feb. 15th, 2005

Questions on the Order Paper

[John McKay, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance]

Madam Speaker, I am splitting my time with the hon. member for Ahuntsic, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Social Development.

Supporting low income and modest income families is a priority for the government. We have delivered on our commitment in a number of ways through different instruments, including tax relief and, more specifically, by providing access to additional funds to help offset the costs of raising their children in a safe and supportive environment.

The government recognizes the important contributions that parents make to society. Parenting, as many members know, is never easy. I have five children, and frankly, I find that being Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance is a cakewalk compared to parenting five children.

It is particularly difficult if one is from a low income or modest income family, because of course money is always then an issue. On behalf of the government and other members of the Commons, let me begin by acknowledging these challenges and sacrifices of low income and modest income families on behalf of their children in order to provide a nurturing environment in which they can be raised despite their financial constraints, which are for many a constant struggle.

I would also be remiss if I did not remind members of the steps the government has taken to help low income and modest income families raise happy and healthy children. These measures are designed to offset the costs incurred by having children and to recognize the financial status of the families themselves. More important, these measures put money back in the hands of people who need it most, and I think that is a significant distinction. The help we have tried to provide is targeted to people who need the most help so that they can create safer and more nurturing environments for their children.

As hon. members will recall, the 2004 budget reaffirmed this enduring commitment by announcing a number of measures to help Canadian parents with their responsibilities. For instance, we accelerated the implementation of the multilateral framework agreement on early learning and child care. We introduced a new Canada learning bond. We enhanced the Canada education savings grant, matching rates for low income and middle income families. These measures are designed to help families through every stage of a child's development.

Members will also recall what was done prior to the most recent budget. In the year 2000, we introduced a five year tax reduction plan. I would draw the House's attention to the fact that in the five year plan of $100 billion in total, three-quarters of that was directed to benefits for individuals, with the most relief going to low income and modest income families with children. In 2004-05 the government's tax reduction plan will have reduced personal income taxes by 21% on average. Families with children benefit even more with an average tax savings in the order of 27%.

May I also remind the House that under this plan, families with children also benefited from reduced tax rates for all income levels, the elimination of the deficit reduction surtax, and the restoration of the full indexation of the personal income tax system, which protected families against automatic increases and erosion of benefits caused by inflation. The first number of measures were specifically targeted to people with low and modest incomes; the latter number applies to all tax filers.

The plan also included significant enrichments of the Canada child tax benefit, possibly the most significant initiative of this government in quite a number of years. It is to these changes that I would like to draw members' attention specifically.

The Canada child tax benefit, CCTB, is the main vehicle through which the government achieves its commitment to generally assist families with costs associated with raising children. It is a non-taxable amount paid monthly to help eligible families with the cost of raising children under the age of 18.

Since its inception this program has been significantly enriched. For example, the 2000 budget and the 2000 economic statement and budget update enriched the CCTB by an additional $2.6 billion. The CCTB enhancements under the five year tax reduction plan continue to benefit families with children, with the final steps implemented in July 2004.

These include increasing the family net income threshold at which the national child benefit supplement, the NCB supplement, is fully phased out and the CCTB benefit begins to be phased out, and reducing the phase-out rate of the base benefit of the CCTB. Taken together, these measures will ensure that more Canadians will receive CCTB benefits.

The 2003 budget went even further and announced further substantial increases in the NCB supplement by annual amounts of $150 per child in July 2003, $185 in July 2005, and $185 in July 2006. These enrichments translate into an increase of $965 million per year in the NCB supplement of the CCTB by 2007.

Currently the CCTB provides $9.1 billion annually in assistance to 3.5 million families, roughly 10% of the population, with annual benefits of up to $2,719 for the first child, $2,503 for the second child, and $2,507 for each additional child. In fact, I would say it goes to probably more than 10% of the population of Canada.

With these increases, together with full indexation restored under the five year tax reduction plan, the minimum CCTB benefit is projected to reach $3,243 for a first child, $3,016 for a second, and $3,020 for each additional child, by July 2007. Overall assistance to families with children through CCTB is projected to reach $10 billion annually, an increase of over 100% since 1996. So from 1996 to 2007, we will see a 100% increase in the benefit.

From an individual family's point of view, this means that over the same period the maximum annual benefit for a first child under CCTB will have more than doubled from $1,520 to $3,243. That is $1,723 more per year to help cover the costs associated with raising a child.

I would also like to add that the 2003 budget created a new child disability benefit. This benefit is paid for children qualifying for the disability tax credit, with the full $1,653 per child benefit being paid to all families receiving the national child benefit supplement who have a qualifying child. The measure is expected to benefit 40,000 low income and modest income families and will represent an investment of $50 million per year.

Given these initiatives, there could be no clearer evidence than this of the high priority the government attaches to families with children. The growth in the CCTB is a clear example of the government's efforts to put money in the hands of families of low and modest incomes.

Let me conclude by saying the Government of Canada continues to work diligently on ways to support families of low and modest incomes. The government's record on tax relief for families with children is solid. From the perspective of government, strong arguments can be made that assisting families is not only the right thing to do but the smart thing to do.

The fact of the matter is that it is also an area in which this government has created a number of initiatives, many of which have been very well received by Canadians. The government can be counted on to continue its support for low income and modest income families and expand and improve the multitude of supports like the CCTB that we have already put in place.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

Madam Speaker, the hon. member and I have discussed as colleagues on the finance committee the issue of eliminating the discrepancy or the discrimination in the taxation system between dual and single income families, and how this obviously would be a benefit not only to working women and young parents but also to senior citizens. I wonder if the hon. member can commit to those kinds of changes in the tax system being in the upcoming budget.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Madam Speaker, the short answer to the question is no. The budget will be delivered on February 23 at 4:00. I am sure that the hon. member's attention will be riveted to what the finance minister has to say.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance for laying out to the House a broad range of initiatives which have taken place over a series of budgets. It is very important to understand that every budget cannot address all issues. We can look at them over a period of time and see how children have been a very top priority of the Liberal Party.

I want to ask the member a question with regard to the tax relief for Canadians with low and modest incomes. I think the way everyone has been talking about it, that the Canada child tax benefit is in fact part of the tax system although it is a non-taxable payment, it is an effective way to target because the Canada child tax benefit is means tested. After a certain level of income, families cease getting that benefit.

Certainly the Canada child tax benefit is targeted at Canadians with low and modest incomes. Is the parliamentary secretary aware of any other efficient way to direct so-called tax cuts to Canadians with low and modest incomes without having them also automatically extend to the highest income earners because of our marginal tax rate system?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Madam Speaker, the hon. member for Mississauga South has asked a very subtle question.

It is something that gives us some difficulty. Clearly on the face of it, if we simply raised thresholds, we would appear to be giving relief to all tax filers. If we merely lowered tax percentages, we would give relief to all tax filers. If we look at it more carefully, in terms of the benefit in thresholds or marginal rates, we would find that the disproportionate benefit goes to the upper and upper middle income tax filers. That makes it somewhat difficult to simply give a broad base tax relief if the decision is to target folks with low and middle incomes.

One of the ideas that came up at the finance committee which I thought was quite intriguing had to do with enhanced GST tax credits. A lot of people particularly at the low end of the spectrum have either no income on which to declare, or have income that is fairly modest. One of the benefits would be that an enhanced GST tax credit would benefit those who are at the lowest end of the socio-economic scale.

That is one of a myriad of ways in which the government could possibly look at the modification of things. A great number of witnesses at the finance committee had suggestions along those lines. It is not as if we are not aware of those.

The other point I want to make with regard to the CCTB is that it is a directed benefit that actually puts real cash into the hands of people who are, as the hon. member said, means tested.

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Social Development (Social Economy)]

Madam Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to address the motion tabled by the hon. member for Calgary Southwest on the question of reducing taxation for low and modest income Canadian families in the upcoming budget. For my part I would like to put the question into a larger context, because I believe the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance has already put it into context in terms of tax cuts, by examining the economic implications of child care for all Canadians.

Even as the Government of Canada was taming the deficit during the 1990s, it continued to invest in Canada's children. Indeed, in 1996, first ministers established children and families as a priority for joint action, and they remain at the forefront of the national policy agenda today.

As the October Speech from the Throne clearly states, investing in our children is the best investment we can make as a nation. Experts agree that the early years are the building blocks for a child's future. They establish the foundation for competence and coping skills that affect learning, behaviour and health in later life.

For that reason alone, it would make good sense to invest in children.

There are even more compelling reasons. If the early years are the building blocks for our children, it is equally true that our children are the building blocks for our future and that of our country. The future viability and prosperity of Canada depends on our children's ability to become adults who can thrive in an increasingly complex global environment. That is why the Government of Canada has invested in children and their families.

By the end of this fiscal year, as my hon. colleague the Parliament Secretary to the Minister of Finance said, the Government of Canada will have invested more than $13 billion in programs that support children and families. We have invested in child benefits that have helped lift 55,000 children out of poverty in the year 2000 alone. We have expanded parental benefits to allow parents to remain at home with their infants for up to a year. We have developed new partnerships and joint initiatives with the provinces and territories from the national children's agenda, to the early childhood development agreement, to the multilateral framework on early learning and child care.

Yet for all the positive impact of this set of initiatives, there is a glaring omission. I speak, of course, of the need for an early learning and child care system in each province and territory.

The Canadian family has evolved dramatically over the past few decades. Close to 70% of mothers with children under age six now work outside the home. Everyone in this House agreed on this, even the Conservatives.

I want to emphasize that quality child care can help bring opportunities that might not otherwise exist for children whose families may face broader challenges

Too often parents of low income families cannot find quality accessible and affordable day care, contrary to what hon. members on the other side of the House have been saying all day. In Toronto alone in 2001, 17,000 low income children were on a waiting list for subsidized child care. In Montreal apparently the list is even longer. Across the country we have regulated child care spaces for only about 27% of young children with mothers in the workforce.

Low income parents in fact pay a high price for taking care of their children at home. By the time they put their children in school and start to look for work again, they may no longer have the skills to get well-paying jobs in a rapidly evolving economy.

That is why quality child care is so important. It allows both low income parents to work outside the home if they choose to do so. Not only does employment bring immediate economic benefits, but it also begins to reverse the cycle of poverty. By staying employed while their children are young, parents can continue to develop skills that will keep them employable in the knowledge economy, again if that is their choice.

Research shows that, over the long term, the right combination of income and service supports for all young children and families—including, I might add, children in middle-income families—pays handsome dividends. Every dollar invested generates a long-term payoff of between two and seven dollars. Quality child care is an important part of this economic equation.

I would like to make reference to the OECD report which was referred to earlier. In fact if the hon. members would take the time to read the report, they would see that it underlines the fact that with a good early learning and child care system in the country, the quality of life for children and their families will be increased.

It is for that reason that the Government of Canada has committed to spend $5 billion to develop an early learning and child care system in each province and territory over the next five years.

We know this money is well spent—that the benefits far outweigh the costs. Not just for the positive impact on our children families, but also for the economic returns for Canada as a nation. That is exactly what was said in the OECD report.

The Government of Canada is working hand in hand with its provincial and territorial partners to create an early learning and child care system that is based on the principles that experts and parents say matter: quality, universally inclusive, accessible and developmental.

The motion being considered today stresses the need for the child care system to respect provincial jurisdiction and as I come from the province of Quebec, I think I am very sensitive to that issue. I have not heard, as I said when I put my first question earlier this morning to the hon. critic for social development and early learning, in what way will the Conservative Party work with the provinces in order to make sure that the system that is in place, or the system that is not in place, will in fact develop? The Conservatives do agree, and the last speaker from that party said so, that there is a need for quality day care across the country.

The new initiative will give the provinces and territories the flexibility to address their own particular needs and circumstances. They will use the money to make existing programs and services better and to create new quality spaces. I am still waiting for the answer from the Conservative Party on exactly how it would contribute to that, besides the issue of tax cuts.

While the specific impacts of the initiative will vary across the country, Canadians can expect to see more child care providers and early childhood education, more children with access to safe, secure and stimulating early learning environments, and higher rates of retention among early childhood educators. I repeat that is exactly what the OECD report said is needed.

At a meeting last Friday of ministers responsible for social services, the federal, provincial and territorial ministers took another step forward in realizing our joint vision. In the words of the co-chair, the hon. Chester Gillan, Minister of Health and Social Services in Prince Edward Island, the provinces and territories were extremely pleased with the progress. We all agree on the need for clear accountability that allows citizens to track the progress of their respective governments on child care.

The time has come for an early learning and child care system in every province and territory—for the sake of our children, our families and communities, and our country.

Once again, I will emphasize the fact that this is precisely what was said in the OECD study, that Canada needed this system. I was very encouraged by everything that has been said by the hon. members from the Conservative Party of Canada. They agree that we need an accessible, quality system all across Canada.

However, they have said nothing about how to set up such a system. What methods, what tools will they adopt to have this system all across Canada? Neither have they answered the question of their view of the system currently in place in Quebec. How are they going to collaborate with Quebec to ensure that they have the tools necessary to set up a system like Quebec's all across Canada? I see nothing about this.

We know that the hon. members from the Conservative Party of Canada are always talking about giving money to parents, but this system exists right now. How are they proposing to encourage this system?

We on our side are working with the provinces and territories. We have $5 billion on the table. We also want to provide parents with choices, with quality choices on child care.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Madam Speaker, it is clear from the studies which came out just this past week that the Canadian people do not want the system that the Liberals are proposing.

What else is clear is the difference that is forming in today's debate. On this side of the House we believe that parents, not politicians, should decide what is best for their children. We on this side of the House believe in parents.

What the government would do is effectively expropriate billions of tax dollars and put that money into a single option that is not universal. It would exclude stay at home parents, family based care, community based care, linguistic and religious institutions that might provide care. It would exclude 95% of the options, and the Liberals call it universal. It is universal in only one way. Everybody gets to pay. Even if they do not like what is on the menu, they have to pick up the tab.

How would the member, while looking into the eyes of stay at home parents, explain to them why they should be forced to pay for a system which they do not believe in and which they do not wish to use?

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Ahuntsic, QC]

Madam Speaker, I would have no problem looking at parents and telling them that they have that choice at the moment. In fact, they have those choices based on the type of tax measures we have already brought into the system for low and middle income families.

They also have a choice if they choose to work. They also have a choice under our parental leave to stay home for a year if they wish. If they wish to go back to work, we want to make sure that those children, who we care as much about as the other members on the opposite side, have a system that offers them the best possible tools to grow and become contributing members in our society.

What we are talking about today is providing children with the a foundation to become members of this society. However, to have that basis we need to have a system, which is what we are talking about today. I have heard nothing from the other side in terms of how they will contribute to the existing system that is uneven.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Canadians do not want a system.

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Ahuntsic, QC]

Yes, they do. The polls say that they do want a system.

The difference between our party and that party is that it wants to force its vision of society on families but that is not the family's vision.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Madam Speaker, the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Social Development has spoken passionately many times, both here in the House and in committee, about the building blocks for a social economy.

There is no question in my mind and in her mind that the legislation is very important for building those building blocks for the social economy.

On the issue of child care, which is essential for so many parents and, of course, for the province of Ontario and the city of Toronto, which is where I was elected, about 20,000 people are on a waiting list for subsidized spaces. No matter how much money is given to parents, there will never be enough spaces in the system. We do have to be aggressive in implementing this particular policy.

The federal Liberal government has been trying for many years to get all provincial parties to the table in order to put a comprehensive child care system in place but most provinces in the past have resisted. Perhaps the hon. member could give us her views on the social economy.

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Ahuntsic, QC]

Madam Speaker, it is a fact that a lot of the day care centres are part of the social economy, or l'économie sociale, in Quebec. Those day care centres do provide day care and an educational early learning program that is very beneficial for children from low and middle income families. That is the type of social enterprise that will be encouraged by this government and I am assuming by the provinces when we reach the agreement that we are working toward.

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the member for Regina--Qu'Appelle.

I rise today to speak in support of the Conservative motion that reads:

That the House call upon the government to address the issue of child care by fulfilling its commitment to reduce taxes for low and modest income families in the upcoming budget, and, so as to respect provincial jurisdiction, ensure additional funds for child care are provided directly to parents.

I support the motion because I strongly believe that parents, not the government nor any other government for that matter, are in the best position to determine what is best for their children based on their own values, their own culture and their own traditions.

I would like to read an excerpt from a report called “Canadian Attitudes on the Family”. I reads:

...many Canadian parents feel trapped by economic pressures and are not able to make the sort of choices they would like for their families. Sometimes, of course, this is unavoidable. Economic reality has a way of interfering with our dreams, and everyone has to live within their means. In this case, however, the Canadian tax system is clearly stacked against the interests of Canadian families....

I agree wholeheartedly. This tax system is stacked against the interests of Canadian families.

The Liberal government's national child care strategy does absolutely nothing to address the problems with the tax system. It does absolutely nothing to provide for the choices that parents need to address, the specific and varying needs of their children, inasmuch as the proposed $5 billion that the government will be bringing forward over five years is slotted only for government run day care centres and educational programs.

The government needs to stop pushing Canadian families in one direction, which is toward government run day care centres. Instead, it must allow Canadian families to make their own choice with as level a playing field between the alternative choices as possible.

We advocate choice because the Conservative Party of Canada truly trusts Canadians to make decisions that are in their best interests, in the best interests of their children and, ultimately, in the best interests of society as a whole.

Last week there was an article in the National Post entitled “Listen to the Parents”. The article reads:

It is worth noting that the study shows nearly half of all Canadian mothers and fathers still do their own parenting. And the category that displayed the biggest increase was care at home by relatives, such as grandparents, rather than in formal daycare centres. All of which suggests Canadian parents are still not sold on the notion that their children should be raised by strangers in an institutional setting.

However the Liberal government has totally ignored this most important aspect of child care. The Liberals “one size fits all” day care strategy ignores the realities of Canadians' delicate work-life balance. It ignores the realities of rural Canadian families who do not have access to government run facilities, who work varied hours, or who are self-employed on their farms and therefore not eligible for any day care assistance despite the fact that many Canadian farmers and farm families are living below the poverty line.

Many farmers, depending on the way their farm is structured and the way it is set up for tax purposes, are ineligible to use receipts for day care on their farming operation. Although the most dangerous time for young children to be on the farm is harvest time when everyone is tired, the tax structure does not, in some cases, allow parents to use a child care receipt as a deduction on their income tax.

The government ignores the fact that many Canadian families choose to have one parent stay at home with their children. Where is the assistance or subsidies to help these struggling families?

One of my former constituents, a long time neighbour and friend, Joyce Oberg, has been a home day care provider in my home town of Killam for many years. Joyce rightfully points out in a recent letter she sent to me that not all parents work Monday to Friday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., and yet there is no government run day care that is open seven days a week ready to accommodate parents who work those types of shifts. Why should these parents be short-shifted by a government that ignores or is oblivious to this fact and to many other realities of the work-life balance in Canada?

Many of my colleagues today have spoken about the financial burden that has been imposed on Canadian families. They have come forward advocating tax cuts that go directly to parents to pay for their preferred choice and in providing care for their children. I wholeheartedly agree with those tax cuts.

However I have noted that what many have neglected to talk about today is the horrific stress that work imposes on Canadian families and the growing need to provide more flexibility in the workforce to alleviate those stresses and the stresses placed on society in general.

A recent article in the Ottawa Citizen stated that, “An alarming number of Canadians are at risk of developing serious health problems unless something is done to redress the balance between work and family life”.

The Ottawa Citizen referenced a Health Canada study which found that:

The health care system is completely overburdened and a large part of that is because people are completely overloaded. They have way too much to do and no time to do it in. People are more likely to be absent from work, take mental health leaves, have stress episodes, depression.... You're going to see direct and indirect costs to productivity.

A number of factors have created this result, including: 25% of the population is working 50 hours or more a week, which is up from 10% in 1991; employees are more likely to work overtime without being compensated, which adds to more stress; 70% of all workers are parents with an average of two children each; 60% had elder care responsibilities; and 13% were what is called the sandwich generation that cares for both children and for an elderly relative.

What do the authors of this study recommend? They recommend that the government take the lead in issues of child and elder care, to lead by example in letting employees work flexible schedules and find ways to reduce the “financial penalties” associated with parenthood. This study is drawing reference to the fact that there are financial penalties right now in the tax system that need to be addressed.

The Liberal government has failed dismally in this regard. It has failed dismally because it does not understand the social and financial realities of Canadian families. We would implore the government to ensure that, in the 2005 federal budget, low and middle income Canadians are given tax relief, tax relief that will allow them to make the choice in how to care for their children, whether that be in their own homes, with a relative, with a neighbour or in a government run day care centre. The operative words are “choice, freedom and flexibility”.

The Conservative Party of Canada is asking the Liberal government to allow Canadian parents to parent, allow them to make the choices and allow them to make decisions without the government's intrusion, obstruction or penalties.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, I want to be very clear that I am very much in favour of supporting a first step on a national child care program. It is one of the tools that we have available for parents. The choice and flexibility are also important.

The member commented a couple of times about the objective of providing tax relief for low and modest income Canadians. We have heard the rhetoric. Could the member explain exactly how a tax break for low and modest income Canadians can be delivered without having the same benefit go to the higher income earners in Canada? Can he be very specific about what changes would be made in the Income Tax Act to specifically target low and modest income Canadians?

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

Madam Speaker, we, in this party, have suggested that we allow Canadian parents to make the decisions. In my own circumstances as a farmer and the owner of a small business, there have been times when we have had to use day care facilities. We have used babysitters, family members and one of us at times stayed at home.

We are suggesting that the marketplace can always make the decisions and that it will react. If more money were put into the pockets of young mothers and young families who are raising their children which would allow them the opportunity to choose with their own dollars where they would best want to have their children--

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Ahuntsic, QC]

How?

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

We do it by increasing the credits. There are many different ways of doing it. We allow so much for the child credit. We have always suggested that we need to encourage this and we need to allow parents to stay at home.

Members opposite are hollering and screaming over there. Government members typically stand in this place and say that they know what is best. They know what is best for the farmers. They come up with a program and the farmers do not like it. They know what is best when it comes to provincial jurisdictions and they jump into those jurisdictions. Now they are telling us that they know what is best when it comes to parenting. The only way it will work is if we have a government day care centre that everyone will be able to access.

People and critics across this country have made it clear that even with a government day care centre, not everyone will be able to access it. There will be many people who will not access it. Let us give them a better credit so that they can choose the facility they want to use. Put more money back into their pockets. Allow them the opportunity to choose.

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Ahuntsic, QC]

How?

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

Members opposite continue to say “how?”. We do not have a revenue problem with the government; we have a spending problem with the government. Now the Liberals are looking for ways to rip off more money from hardworking Canadian taxpayers, and I say shame.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Madam Speaker, I have three quick questions here and he may need to take notes so he can give me intelligent and wise responses.

Earlier today, we heard the minister talk about the whole issue of parents needing to suppress the guilt. It is a given that parents would feel guilty because they do not have enough to time to spend with their kids. Parents have to live with that and it is par for the course. In effect, he was inferring that we need to suppress the guilt.

When there is guilt about something in a person's life, and I know the Liberal minister's Ph.D. is not in psychology, I would have thought the person should do something about the root cause that is creating the guilt. He is inferring that we simply suppress that guilt. Do we not try to nudge or move to the ideal of spending more time with our children instead of just living with it, going with the flow and suppressing the guilt, as he put it?

I believe that parents would like the choice. Maybe there will continue to be many families where both parents work full time outside the home. Some will choose full time, some part time and some not at all. I would like the member's response to those questions.

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

Madam Speaker, as far as the minister's comments are concerned, I was in committee this morning and did not hear him talk about guilt for putting children in child care. The guilt thing is part of what society is. Parents will be putting children into day care centres. I have had to use babysitters on occasion. However, there are also choices.

It boils down to two things. First, there is absolute need. In some cases, there may only be one parent who has to work and they need help. The other thing is the choice of priorities. Some people have the ability to decide that one parent stays home. Whether it be the husband or the wife, we leave that up to them. Parents must decide what is best for their children.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Madam Speaker, there are three main things I would like to discuss today.

First, is the issue of the limits of the federal government. It is important that part of this babysitting debate is centred around the acceptable limits of government intrusion into our lives.

Second, is the issue of the quality of babysitting. Many of the arguments from the proponents of a national babysitting program have made statements concerning the fact that only a government-run, government-delivered babysitting program can meet qualifiers.

Third, is the issue of the matter of choice. If the House does indeed decide that we should provide further assistance to families to ease the burden of rearing children, how best can we deliver that assistance?

On the issue of the proper role of the federal government, I must say that the Liberal government is giving a whole new meaning to the term nanny state. Not trusting Canadians to make their own decisions about child care, the government is again stepping into unchartered territory of government control. We used to believe that it was the role of parents and guardians to raise children, but now we have a government that pretends that the raising of children is now a federal responsibility. Is there any aspect of society that the government recognizes as being outside of its scope? Is there any area of our lives that we can be sure the government will not tread on? I fear that with this government, the answer is no.

On the matter of quality, the rhetoric coming from the backers of a state-run child rearing program is disturbing. I sat in committee where I heard one proponent of this notion saying that early childhood development starts in the womb, that waiting until the baby is actually born before addressing early learning is placing the child at a disadvantage. My wife is about to deliver our first child and to date she has not gone once to a day care centre to allow our unborn child to have access to this form of early childhood learning. I guess we are letting our child down. I guess we have a lot to answer for, that my wife is not going to day care pre-birth.

The basic premise of the early learning argument is that early learning cannot happen unless the child is in a state-run day care centre, and I have a big problem with that. I know people who offer babysitting programs from their homes. I have close family who do this. I challenge any bureaucrat to deliver the quality of care that these people provide. My relatives who babysit from their homes offer a wide variety of activities for the children they watch: arts and crafts, field trips to museums, sports, reading exercises, and the list goes on, and all this without any form of certification from any level of government. It is shocking that we are letting people provide care without being certified from a government program. I am really concerned about this. Note the sarcasm in my voice.

I can think back to the times when I was cared for by my grandmother. To state that she did not enhance my early childhood development is an outright falsehood. I can think of many important lessons she taught me, as well as the socializing aspect of growing up with several of my cousins. The Liberal babysitting program offers nothing for those options for families.

I would even argue that not only can family members provide similar levels of early childhood development, in many cases that level of care is superior because the bottom line is that nobody cares for a child more than that child's family. The love a parent, a grandparent or any other family member has for their child or grandchild surpasses the love that the government-licensed day care provider working in a government-run facility could ever provide.

This is not to detract from the dedication of institutionalized day care providers. In many cases they choose to go into the field because they love children and they enjoy caring for them. However, I do not think anyone could argue that family members do not provide a unique level of care. The argument cannot be made that only government-licensed institutional facilities can provide early childhood learning.

The last thing I wish to speak about is the question of choice. In typical Liberal fashion, the government is using circular logic to justify the idea of socialized babysitting. The stat has been used that around 70% of mothers are in the workforce. I heard a member of the NDP say that those 70% have chosen to be in the workforce. Many women choose to re-enter the workforce to further their own career and they make a conscious choice to do so, but how many parents are there in Canada who would love to have one parent stay at home to raise the child, but cannot because they need the extra income to maintain their households?

This entire issue is centred around the question of taxation. We have a situation where people need to have two incomes just to pay their tax burdens, so we need two parents in the workforce. What is the answer? We spend more tax dollars on providing a service because both parents have to be in the workforce. It is a circular argument.

The Strategic Council polled 1,500 Canadians across the country on a range of family issues. It found that 82% of respondents agreed with the statement that governments should change the tax law in Canada to make it easier for parents with young children to afford to have one parent stay at home if they choose. About 76% of respondents stated that they would prefer to have a parent stay at home with the children if finances and other circumstances made it possible.

How many families face such a huge tax burden that they are forced back into the workplace? How many families would make that decision to have one parent stay at home if they had the extra income?

However, instead of looking at tax credits and direct funding to parents or other incentives to allow this, the government is embarking on a program that would take an enormous amount of tax dollars to provide. We have seen some of the statistics. The government says that it can do it for perhaps $5 billion over five years. In 1999 a study by the Department of Health estimated that it would cost $12 billion to $15 billion annually to provide a universal system. That does not sound like we are in the same ball park. We know the Liberals have numeric dyslexia over the surplus. I think this is another example; however, in this case, they are underestimating the cost.

The government's program has a one-size-fits-all approach that does not allow a choice for parents. We have seen other provincial models where direct funding goes to the parents.

I would like to address something that was brought up by one of the members over there. He said the length of waiting lists for institutionalized day care is dramatic in some regions. What we saw in other provinces is that when they provided that funding directly to the parents and they had that money in their hands to make their choice, whether it is to pay a family member to provide the care, a neighbour, a synagogue, a church or a mosque, the wait list for institutional day care goes down dramatically.

I received numerous e-mails from stay-at-home parents who are furious that the government's plan leaves them out. I support this motion because it places choice in the hands of parents, it puts money back into the pockets of families, and it keeps governments out of the business of raising children.

[Nicole Demers, Bloc, Laval, QC]

Madam Speaker, I truly envy my colleague and the ideal childhood he just spoke of where his grandparents loved him, took him to the museum, read to him and all the rest.

I wonder whether my colleague realizes that thousands of families in Quebec and Canada are not as lucky. In fact, thousands of families are poor and should probably use the money my colleague wants to give in order to buy milk or diapers for their children. What does he hope to achieve for these people if suitable child care services are not set up by the provinces?

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Madam Speaker, I did have access to a grandmother for some of my day care. Both my parents had to work to pay the excessive tax burden they faced. I spent time at day cares and with babysitters, both neighbourhood babysitters and a babysitter who came to our home. I have experienced a wide variety. Nothing compared to the family members who provided that care for me, as great as was all the other care.

I do not doubt her sincere intentions on this. I know she approaches this question out of a legitimate concern. However, I think my colleague missed the point because when we provide those dollars directly into the hands of parents, they can make those choices themselves. We do not need to have to pump it into a system, a government-run facility, and have all the examples that we have seen of how governments deliver services. We should put the money back into the hands of parents, let them make those choices, let them find out what they need to do for their own children to get those things the member mentioned, and let them provide the care for their own kids.

[Eleni Bakopanos, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Social Development (Social Economy)]

Madam Speaker, speaking of the type of supports we have given families, I think the hon. member missed the whole speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance on the amount of tax cuts we have made and the types of support we have provided, such as the child tax benefit.

However, I thought it was a way of demeaning the whole debate by talking about babysitting. We are not talking about babysitting. We are talking about early learning and child care. There is a huge difference, and it is by choice. It is by choice because we have increased the limit on the child care expense deduction from $4,000 to $7,000 a year for each child under seven years of age. We have provided the child disability benefit for low and modest income families to provide up to $1,600 per year for a child with a disability. We also have reduced net personal income taxes for families with children by at least 21%. Since they are very good at quoting different studies, I will quote the Caledon Institute. It said, “at the current level the child tax benefit reduced the rate of poverty among families with children by 25%”. There is more to come in the budget.

When the hon. member refers to babysitting, does he not agree that there should be a system in place for those families who choose to put their children in a child care system? Does he object to those families, because his vision of society is not the vision of society that we share in the House?