House of Commons Hansard #61 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was religious.
Marc Godbout Liberal Ottawa—Orléans, ON
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table today a petition from the citizens of Ottawa region asking that the Canada Health Act be amended to include IBI/ABA therapy for children with autism as a medically necessary treatment and requiring all provinces to provide funding for this essential treatment so people with autism can be helped.
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Mr. Speaker, the petitioners say that since marriage is the best foundation for society for families and for the raising of children and that the definition of marriage is being challenged, they recognize that it is up to Parliament to uphold the traditional definition of marriage. They ask that Parliament enact a federal law that marriage is the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
Mr. Speaker, I rise today to present a petition from residents of Langley and the Fraser Valley who are strongly opposed to any legislation that would in any way change the traditional definition of marriage.
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley, BC
Mr. Speaker, I also present a petition from residents of Langley, Surrey and Abbotsford.
The petitioners ask that the Canada Health Act be amended to include IBI/ABA as an essential treatment for autism and that university academic chairs be appointed at each university to teach autism treatment.
Rob Anders Conservative Calgary West, AB
Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a petition on behalf of the Canadian Coalition for Democracies. The group's goal is to encourage the spread of democracy and democratic values. They think Canadian foreign policy should support democratic nations like Israel, India, Taiwan and the United States.
Rob Anders Conservative Calgary West, AB
Mr. Speaker, I also present petitions on behalf of many constituents who support the traditional definition of marriage because it just works so well.
Garry Breitkreuz Conservative Yorkton—Melville, SK
Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege for me to present a large number of petitions with thousands of names of Canadians from coast to coast. They are very concerned about the issue that is presently being debated in the House.
The petitioners state that because the majority of Canadians believe that fundamental matters of social policy should be decided by elected members of Parliament, not the unelected judiciary, and that also the majority of Canadians support the current legal definition of marriage as a voluntary union of a single unmarried man and a single female, that Parliament should ensure that marriage is defined as Canadians wish it to be defined.
They petition Parliament to use all possible legislative and administrative measures, including invoking section 33 of the charter if necessary, to preserve and protect the current definition of marriage as between one man and one woman.
Jay Hill Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a pleasure for me to present yet another petition on Bill C-38, which is receiving its second full day of debate.
These petitioners from my riding of Prince George—Peace River, specifically from the city of Fort St. John and the smaller communities of Taylor, Baldonnel and Charlie Lake wish to draw to the attention of the House that marriage is the best foundation for families and for the raising of children, and that this House did indeed pass a motion in June 1999 which called for marriage to continue to be recognized as the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.
Therefore, the petitioners call upon Parliament to pass legislation to recognize the institution of marriage in federal law as being the lifelong union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.
Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present a petition also on the subject of the definition of marriage.
The petitioners, who are from my riding and from other parts of Canada, wish to draw to the attention of the House that the majority of Canadians do believe that the fundamental matters of social policy should be decided by elected parliamentarians and not by unelected judges, and that the majority of Canadians support the traditional definition of marriage.
Therefore, the petitioners call upon Parliament to use all legislative and administrative measures possible, including the invocation of section 33 of the charter, also known as the notwithstanding clause, if necessary, to preserve and protect the current definition of marriage as between one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.
Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings
February 21st, 2005 / 3:10 p.m.
Beauséjour New Brunswick
Liberal
Dominic LeBlanc LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons
Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-38, an act respecting certain aspects of legal capacity for marriage for civil purposes, be read the second time and referred to a committee, and of the amendment.
Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders
The Speaker
Before question period, the hon. member for London—Fanshawe had the floor. He has six minutes remaining in the time allotted for his remarks with, of course, 10 minutes for questions and comments to follow.
Pat O'Brien Liberal London—Fanshawe, ON
Mr. Speaker, in my nearly 12 years here this is the first time that I was speaking just before question period and had to conclude my remarks following question period. Given that, I will take the opportunity to reiterate a couple of the key points I tried to make in my earlier comments.
First of all, I quoted judgments by two judges, one from B.C. and one from Quebec, who ruled in favour of the heterosexual requirement for marriage. I addressed the false analogy that so many people draw between the women's rights movement and the black civil rights movement and the attempt to equate them to same sex marriage. That is a patently false analogy. It is only through a misreading of history and specious logic that someone could come up with such a conclusion. Many women in Canada and black people, including personal friends whom I know very well, find that highly insulting.
I quoted three gay or lesbian people who gave very eloquent testimony against changing the definition of marriage and who spoke directly to the deleterious effects that such a move would have. Harvard University Professor William Eskridge, John McKellar here in Canada, and lesbian theorist Ladelle McWhorter all spoke eloquently and persuasively against changing the definition or marriage. They spoke directly to the negative consequences that would quite likely flow from such a ridiculous course of action.
I took on the human rights argument that is central to the position of so many of the people who are proponents of this. I noted that proponents of same sex marriage cannot point to a single national or international judgment that same sex marriage is a human right. They cannot point to a single one. They can point to several lower court decisions in this country, but they cannot point to the Supreme Court of Canada speaking to question four because it deliberately did not speak to question four on the constitutionality of the definition of marriage as we know it.
The Prime Minister further stated that we cannot return to the past, that is, retain the traditional definition of marriage, with a simple snap of the fingers. Recall that incredibly it was a simple snap of the legal fingers of three judges in Ontario that instantly redefined marriage in June 2003. This shockingly arrogant ruling is an insult to the people and Parliament of Canada.
At that time as I served on the justice committee I called for this ruling to be appealed by the federal government. The failure to do so is clearly the reason the Supreme Court refused to address itself to the constitutionality of the traditional definition of marriage, which as I noted is question four in the reference to the court. At that time, June 2003, the justice committee hearings were reduced to a pathetic farce. That time should be recorded as one of the most disgraceful and duplicitous moments in the history of our parliamentary deliberations as a nation. It was also the quintessence of judicial activism at its worst.
I again call on the Prime Minister to extend to all Liberal members of Parliament, including cabinet ministers, a free vote of conscience. This is not a mundane piece of legislation. It is one of the most important decisions any Canadian Parliament has made or will make. It offends the core moral beliefs of many MPs, including ministers. All members should be free to vote their conscience without coercion or penalty.
As I close, let me say that for me there is a higher truth and a greater judge than any we will find in the courts of Canada or any earthly court. Our courts do not have a monopoly on truth. Our charter, though important, is not sacrosanct. The government, pushed by the courts, is making a very serious mistake in a reckless and headlong rush to redefine marriage to the point that in Canada the word could become virtually meaningless.
This court driven radical experiment in social engineering could have incalculable negative long term effects on marriage and the family to the detriment of Canadian society. For me, this is an issue much more important than mere party politics. It goes directly to the heart of who I am and what I believe.
While all persons no matter what their sexual orientation deserve to be treated with dignity and respect, that does not mean we must imperil the future of true marriage so as to satisfy the illogical and immoral demand for same sex marriage.
The eyes of the nation are on us as we engage in this important debate. I believe the eyes of our ancestors and our dear deceased loved ones are also on us at this historic time. The real question is, will we betray the precious legacy of marriage and the family that they left us? Will we so easily and carelessly discard that precious legacy so as to reconstruct marriage into something it was never meant to be? I answer, no. And so here I stand to bear witness to the truth about marriage.
Therefore, I cannot vote for this legislation in good conscience. I will vote against this legislation. I feel compelled to do all I can to defeat Bill C-38.
As I close, let me say that this is an emotional and difficult issue for many Canadians, including me and my family. I want to express my gratitude to the many people who have offered me their support and prayers as, in cooperation with so many others, I have attempted to defend the traditional definition of marriage. I especially thank my wife, Evelyn, for her unwavering encouragement and steadfast love.
Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB
Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity of serving with the member on the justice committee when we studied the question that was put by the justice minister to our committee regarding same sex marriage and the definition of marriage. I appreciated the time I was able to work with him.
I listened with some interest to his concerns in his speech. He spoke about a free vote. Certainly in this party we are given a free vote. In fact, the people of Crowfoot, whom I represent, have made it very clear that they want me to represent their wishes on these questions of social experimentation and social policy in our country. I appreciate that he himself on the other side called on his very own government to offer the same ability of members of Parliament to represent their constituents.
I have some grave concerns with some of the religious freedom aspects of what the bill may bring forward. Promises from the government to defend religious freedom I do not believe can be trusted.
In 1999 the Prime Minister also promised to use “all necessary means” to defend the traditional definition of marriage. At the time, the Deputy Prime Minister stated, “The government has no intention of changing the definition of marriage or legislating same sex marriage”.
Quite simply, I think that the government on some of these issues cannot be trusted. The record shows it blatantly violated these promises.
The member brought up the question of religious freedom. When we bring that up, the government responds by saying that it would want to enshrine that no church, no priest, no preacher, should ever be forced to conduct a ceremony for same sex couples. I wonder if the member could enlarge on that. Perhaps the church would not be forced to conduct a same sex marriage, but does it go beyond that?
There are certain churches in our constituencies that offer marriage counselling. They sent out brochures to their communities and invite all married couples to come to the church for marriage counselling seminars on the weekends. Some of those churches have wondered if, for example, same sex couples were to show up to prove a point, what would they do? Some have said that they would be concerned if they denied them the right to come to these seminars, that they would be hauled before the courts. Would they have to defend their actions in some court? With a great deal of reservation and hesitancy, they are even now concerned about what they can put forward as far as “ministries” of their local church.
It may not only be the marriage ceremony; so many other things may play into religious freedom. I wonder if the member, whom I respect, could enlarge on that. Does he see the same concerns coming from the government side? Does he believe that those things could happen?
Pat O'Brien Liberal London—Fanshawe, ON
Mr. Speaker, I too recall fondly the hearings we participated in, except for the farcical way in which they were ended with the pre-emption of the committee report by the incredibly arrogant ruling of three Ontario judges, who, with a snap of the fingers, instantly redefined marriage. It was shockingly arrogant.
I will tell my colleague that I certainly do share the concerns about the so-called guarantees of religious freedom. Let me be clear, though, that religious leaders in Canada have been very clear about the fact that even if so-called guarantees are airtight they have every right to speak out in this debate. As for this nonsense about the separation of church and state, I do not know who dreamed that up, but they need to read some Canadian history. That does not preclude people who have religious values or who are religious leaders from having their say in this debate.
On the question of the guarantees, I would not be very reassured if I were a religious official in this country. First of all, the court indicated that it is largely a provincial jurisdiction and that the federal government cannot in fact have jurisdiction in that area.
We have already seen the move against what is termed “abuse of facilities” in regard to the Knights of Columbus hall. The Knights of Columbus is a Catholic men's organization. I am proud to say that I am a member of that organization. There is already an attempt to insist that its facilities be made available for a celebration of a same sex wedding or at least be involved in that ceremony.
Here is what I think, given the track record of the courts in this country over the last number of years. We heard this at committee, as my colleague will remember. In case after case after case, when religious freedoms clashed with so-called gay rights, the courts in this country caved in to the gay rights lobby.
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to put some questions to the member for London—Fanshawe. The member has taken great pains to talk about the procreative imperative of marriage; in his opinion, it is the sole criteria for which marriage should be judged. It seems to me that when we are considering civil marriage this really has never been the operative aspect of civil marriage in this country.
I would like to know what the member would say to a heterosexual couple who has no intention of having children as part of their marriage. Does that make their marriage less than a “true marriage”, in the language that he used? What about a couple that is beyond the age for child rearing or beyond the biological capacity of having children? Is that marriage not a true marriage? Should that couple be prevented from marrying? It seems to me that if we take his argument seriously, we would have to answer that those people would not and should not be allowed to marry. I have some real difficulty with that discussion.
I am also concerned about families that adopt children. Is that not a true family? Is the relationship of those parents not a true marriage in that sense? It seems to me that he raises more questions than he solves by stressing the procreative aspect.
I would also like to ask him if he could point to one example, even in the Catholic church, where I believe he is a member, where a priest has been forced to marry someone who had been previously divorced. It is the church's policy not to marry those folks. Has there been any instance where religious freedom was violated to force a priest to marry someone who had been divorced or to marry a couple who were not both Roman Catholic, let us say? Has the freedom of the Catholic church to make a decision based on that been violated? By extension, why would he think that this is down the road?
Pat O'Brien Liberal London—Fanshawe, ON
Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his questions but I only wish he had been part of the justice committee that I sat on, because most of those red herrings were put there. With all due respect, they are red herrings and I will attempt to address them now.
First of all, I did not indicate that the sole criterion for true marriage was procreation. He will want to read my speech to verify the accuracy of what I said.
I quoted Judge Gonthier and I will quote him again for the member:
The fundamental nature of marriage inheres in, among other things, its central role in human procreation....
It is one of the central roles of a true marriage. It is not the only role or only criterion. The member misunderstood what I said there.
As for the argument that because some heterosexual couples cannot procreate or choose not to procreate, to bring that into this is simply a red herring. That does not invalidate those marriages. The reality is that a heterosexual couple is still a procreative unit by the very nature of the act of sexual intercourse, whether or not they themselves can or choose to procreate.
However, the important difference is this: never will a homosexual relationship or a homosexual so-called marriage ever result in procreation without the intervention of a third party. That is the major distinction between the two types of relationships.
The member mentions that I am a practising Catholic and that is true, but the point is that this is not a Catholic issue. The largest number of my constituents who have consistently spoken to me on this issue are Muslims.
Yes, the Catholic church and Catholic leaders and practising Catholic lay people are concerned, but so are they of every major faith in the world and so are Canadians of no particular faith; they are very concerned about changing the definition of the most fundamental institution in this society, marriage and the family.
In my speech, and I will be glad to talk to the member about it later, I quoted expert after expert, some of them gay and lesbian people themselves, who speak directly to the negative consequences in the long term of such a reckless course of action as this government seems determined to pursue.
Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders
The Speaker
Resuming debate, the hon. member for Oxford.
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Mr. Speaker, I have listened to the impassioned words of the hon. member for London—Fanshawe today. I had the opportunity on Friday evening to spend some time with him and some other members from the area of my riding. I have to say that the hon. member was perhaps the most popular member of the House present in that gathering. I know I would regret it if he decided to run in my riding. I would be in trouble with the folks there.
What caught my interest here today was the wealth of knowledge that he has gained from his research into this issue. One of the issues that has come up in this debate in the toing and froing in the House--
Civil Marriage ActGovernment Orders
The Speaker
No, I said resuming debate. I am afraid the time for questions has expired. The hon. member is recognized on debate. I was looking at the member for Fundy Royal who is next on my list, but he did not get up and the hon. member for Oxford did, so I assumed they had traded places.