Debates of Feb. 22nd, 2005

Supply

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Deputy Speaker]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Deputy Speaker]

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division:)

[The Speaker]

I declare the motion carried.

The House resumed from February 17 consideration of the motion.

[The Speaker]

Pursuant to order made on Thursday, February 17, the House will now proceed to the taking of the deferred recorded division on the motion.

(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the following division:)

[The Speaker]

I declare the motion lost.

It being 5:59 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

The House resumed from December 6 consideration of the motion.

Veterans

[Bev Oda, Conservative, Clarington—Scugog—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to the motion.

The motion is particularly important, given that 2005 is the Year of the Veteran, a well deserved honour for all of those who served in the first and second world wars and the Korean War.

We celebrate and honour Canadian Forces veterans, currently serving members, civilians who have served in the military and their families, as well as those Canadians who supported the war effort here at home.

The motion would ensure that funding is available to maintain and preserve war memorials in communities across Canada in honour of our war veterans. There is no question that any monument dedicated to the recognition of the sacrifice and commitment of our Canadian Forces, whether here or abroad, should be maintained in a dignified manner.

Last year, my first Remembrance Day as an MP, I was able to better see and more fully appreciate the importance of the cenotaphs and monuments to the veterans, their families and all Canadians in communities across my riding from Port Perry to Orono to Uxbridge. I look forward to next year joining those in Newcastle, Blackstock and Bowmanville. In fact, every community across Canada has given of its men and women to the freedom and democracy we enjoy in our country.

There are about 6,000 war memorials in communities across Canada today. The memorials erected in their honour are symbolic of their courage and sacrifice as they served our country. They are daily reminders of what we as a nation have contributed proudly and how we have distinguished ourselves in conflicts as they arose around the world. It is with this in mind that I support the motion; however, I do have a few concerns with the motion as it stands.

My local community, in partnership with other levels of government, has built and maintained these memorials. My concern with the member's motion is that it could be interpreted as taking the responsibility of maintenance for war memorials away from the provincial or territorial governments who currently have this responsibility. In cases where a cenotaph has been built by and is attached to a branch of the Royal Canadian Legion, it has been that Legion's responsibility to maintain it. I believe it will be important to work with these levels of government and organizations to ensure that we would not be infringing upon their work.

A further question I would like to see answered prior to any vote on this motion would be regarding instances where a memorial has been allowed to fall into disrepair. If the cenotaph is used and remains an integral fabric of the community in which it was erected, of course it should receive support for maintenance. If it has fallen into disrepair or is not used, I would ask if there is an alternative plan for community consultation as to the future of that memorial. Could the fund in question be accessed to move a memorial to an alternate location? As local governments, Legions and community groups struggle with their own resources, I believe that the Government of Canada has a responsibility to provide a portion of the funds needed to repair and restore these memorials.

We must continue to honour our armed forces in many ways. We celebrate Remembrance Day through national ceremonies and local ceremonies in every community. We have poppy pins to be worn on November 11. We recognize the Legions and their community work throughout the year as they continue to serve their home towns, but in addition to these acts and symbols are the memorials themselves, many of which stand in the centre of the town or the community. They, too, are symbols of our recognition of the dedication and commitment to our country given by so many. They should not be allowed to deteriorate or crumble.

We must do our part to ensure that these memorials are with us in every community for years to come. I would support the motion with amendments.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I have the pleasure to speak on Motion M-190. It was introduced on November 4, 2004 by our colleague, the hon. member for Tobique—Mactacquac, and reads as follows:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government should establish a fund to help ensure the maintenance and the preservation of war memorials in communities across Canada in honour of our war veterans.

I will make our position clear immediately. The Bloc Québécois supports this initiative, which is intended to pay tribute to our soldiers who fought for democracy and freedom. These memorials are part of our heritage and reminders of our history.

Just about everywhere in Canada, whether in my birthplace of Evain, in Abitibi, which is represented by my neighbour in this House, or whether it is in Amos, in Deux-Montagnes in my riding, in Montreal's Côte-des-Neiges Cemetery, whether it is the Croix du sacrifice in Quebec City, or whether it is in Sherbrooke or Trois-Rivières, or indeed virtually any municipality in Quebec, there is a memorial in honour of war veterans. Wherever there is a Canadian Legion, there is a memorial.

Today, we need to acknowledge and thank our municipalities and Canadian Legions, which have paid for repairing and maintaining these memorials out of their own funds. I must pay tribute to people like Claude McGuire of Amos, who wrote a letter to his MP recently. SInce I am responsible for the Veterans Affairs portfolio, I was sent a copy of the letter. In it he requested several thousand dollars for the upkeep of the Amos war memorial. Unfortunately, he could no longer afford to do it. His MP and I contacted the Minister of Veterans Affairs. I understand her situation. She had to respond by saying that there was no money and no program for this purpose.

The purpose of this motion is to remedy that situation, and I think it will help.

I must also pay tribute to some others who are in the same situation. Mrs. Côté, the president of the Granby war veterans, is one and my friend Victor Smart is another. He is the president of the Deux-Montagnes Canadian Legion and has done his utmost to maintain the two memorials in his area and to keep them in good shape. I thank the Legion members, and I thank the people in the municipalities who are fulfilling the federal government's role by maintaining these memorials.

In my opinion, the motion before me is far too vague. For instance, the amount of the fund is not specified, nor is the type of monument we should consider. Are there regulations establishing that certain monuments are a federal responsibility? Are there regulations establishing which monuments are considered federal veteran monuments? How do we determine that my colleague's monument in Amos is looked after, but the monument in my riding, in Deux-Montagnes, is not?

I think very clear rules need to be established to determine which monuments we want to keep and protect.

The monuments in Quebec were erected to pay tribute to war veterans. Again, unfortunately, they are the responsibility of the Royal Canadian Legion and the municipalities that host them. Most communities lack the resources to maintain these monuments because of the exodus to big cities and the aging veteran population.

Speaking of the aging veteran population, I want to caution all the hon. members in this House that we currently have young veterans in our society, people who went to war in Bosnia, people who are out in the street suffering from post traumatic stress. We must protect and take care of them.

In conclusion, I also want to thank my colleague from Abitibi—Témiscamingue, who I know fully supports my position.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to start by thanking the hon. member for Tobique—Mactaquac for putting this motion forward. A motion is not a bill. It calls on the government to turn its attention to a problem and try to find a solution. Motion M-190 states:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government should establish a fund to help ensure the maintenance and the preservation of war memorials in communities across Canada in honour of our war veterans.

We agree with what this motion states.

The Conservative Party suggested earlier that this is the jurisdiction of the provinces or the municipalities. When veterans turn to the federal government for help, this means that they have already knocked on every other door. It means that memorials are in a terrible state of disrepair and it is time to fix them up and make them look good again.

For example, we have a memorial in Caraquet. It fell down a few years ago, and was damaged. Help was sought from the department for the legion, our veterans, in Caraquet. But there is no budget to help our veterans with their war memorial at the federal level. That is unfortunate.

We must also consider the fact that issues relating to our military, our veterans, are not provincial or municipal issues. These veterans fought for our country, Canada. They fought for the freedom of Canadians. This is really a federal jurisdiction, especially when requests come from legions or veterans. I have great respect for that, and these requests are made at the appropriate level. If a municipality wants to look after the situation, that is great, and it should be congratulated for doing so. If a municipality can afford it, that is great. The same if a municipality decides to go ahead. But there may be municipalities which are financially strapped. It is not easy for them with all the cuts that have been made in recent years: federal cuts, provincial cuts. Cuts have affected the municipalities, and money is short.

There are 6,000 war memorials across the country. Some are in pretty bad shape.

On November 11, we take pride as politicians, as MPs, in spending the day with our veterans. For them, a war memorial is a place to remember the war of 1939-45, the other wars in which Canada took part, and those who were lost in those wars. The purpose of the 11th of November is to honour those who lost their lives in wars.

This is, therefore, a totally appropriate motion and I feel it would be absolutely shameful not to support it here in this House of Commons. As I said, when November 11 rolls around, we are all proud—and I am sure of that—to spend the day with our veterans, to support them, to spend time with them. They are equally glad to have us there. But when the time comes to give them something, they seem to always be at the bottom of the list.

The 60th anniversary of the end of the war will be celebrated from April 30 to May 10. We are proud to attend events with them, but now there is a symbol. That symbol is not there just for the November 11, we drive by it every day. We see it in cities, towns and villages. We see the cenotaph and we remember. No one wants to travel somewhere and find a memorial in disrepair. Our veterans deserve far more respect than that. This is one way of respecting our veterans and helping them. They will need our help and support, and this is the way to provide it.

That is the reason we in the NDP will support this motion. For me it is a very important motion respecting our veterans. They went to war for us and gave us the liberty that we enjoy today. When we go to some villages and cities it is very sad to see cenotaphs that are not in good shape.

There was a suggestion from the Conservatives that this is the jurisdiction of the provinces or the municipalities. I say no. These people fought for our country and as far as I am concerned it is the jurisdiction of the federal government. The federal government has to put in money when it is asked to do so by veterans. Veterans do not ask the provinces or municipalities. They fought for our country. When their request is made it is because they have decided they want help from the federal government and the country they fought for. We have the responsibility at the federal level.

That is why I want to thank the member for Tobique—Mactaquac for bringing this motion to the House of Commons for us to make a decision on. We must make sure that we make the decision, because I have raised this question before. I asked the minister if he could help us with one of the monuments that we wanted to repair. The minister said he would love to do it, but there was no budget for it, there was no rule for it and the government could not do it.

This motion will provide the opportunity for the government to come up with a program. It is in respect of all veterans. Veterans listening tonight are happy, I am sure, and are hoping that this motion goes through. Then they will not have to try to collect money for this. They have other things to do. They fought for us. I do not think we should throw it back in their hands and tell them if they want monuments for themselves they will have to work to get them. They have done their work. They went to war for us. They have done their work for Canadians. Now it is our responsibility to respect them. One way to respect them is to do the right thing. The right thing is to support this motion and finally have a fund.

To me it is a housekeeping matter. It is only a motion. The motion says to establish a fund. I am sure we can sit down together and make rules that Canadians will say will be used the right way, rules that will be fair and rules which will allow us to participate in respecting our veterans.

I think that if we do this, the veterans will be proud, and not just on November 11. We must think of our veterans every day of the year and not only on that date. I have a hard time understanding that November 11 is the only day we celebrate the veterans who saved our country and that we forget about them the rest of the year. We must remember them and help them all year long.

I am sure the hon. member for Tobique—Mactaquac enjoys support from veterans for his motion. I am sure he did not draft it all by himself and that he discussed it with the veterans who support it.

In my riding, the veterans have supported this proposal. They ask why the government does not want to pay to help them maintain their monuments. At their age, they are no longer interested in setting up a table in a shopping centre to collect money. They have done their jobs, they have worked hard, and they went to war for the country. Now it is time for them to have a little rest. As a country, it is our duty to take care of them.

I also think it is the right thing to do. I cannot repeat often enough that taking care of the cenotaphs is a way to pay tribute to our veterans. We must keep remembering the sacrifice they made. Many of them went to war as volunteers.

That is why the New Democratic Party supports motion M-190. We hope the hon. member has the support of his government and that the government will also vote in favour of the motion.

We hope this motion will be passed. In doing so, we will be doing a very honourable thing. On Remembrance Day, when we meet the veterans, we will be able to take pride in the fact that we have done something good, something to be proud of.

Our veterans would also be proud of this little thing we are doing in honour of the big thing they have done. Their contribution is huge: they put their lives in danger and they lost comrades and friends.

We can only do this one little thing, honouring them and respecting their monuments. Voting in favour of this motion will be honouring them. I thank the hon. member for proposing this motion.

[Don Bell, Liberal, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise to speak to Motion No. 190 so ably presented by our colleague from Tobique--Mactaquac.

I know that numerous times in the House my colleagues have heard the expression that if one wants to know the history of Canadian military service, especially during the wars of the last century, then one only has to visit the many Commonwealth war cemeteries scattered across northwest Europe, Italy, Japan, Hong Kong and in countless other nations around the world.

More than 116,000 of our finest citizens gave their lives in war and their final resting places are located in over 70 countries. Their gravesites are marked by headstones and monuments and kept with loving care by the Government of Canada through the Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

Such a history brings to mind a wonderful quote from King George V, who was visiting Flanders in 1922. He said at that time:

We can truly say that the whole circuit of the earth is girdled with the graves of our dead...and, in the course of my pilgrimage, I have many times asked myself whether there can be more potent advocates of peace upon earth...than this massed multitude of silent witnesses to the desolation of war.

That is what our debate is about today: silent witnesses.

I am very attracted to the notion that monuments can act as silent and ever vigilant witnesses to the sacrifice of others. If a visiting family arrived on one of our coasts and travelled by car from one end to the other of this wonderful nation, and if in doing so they meandered through small towns and villages, there would be one thing they would see that would tell them they were in the same country. They would see countless memorials, monuments and cenotaphs, all telling the same story, the story of how brave men and women served their country when their country called.

We Canadians are so used to seeing them as we go about our busy lives that we scarcely pay them much heed, except perhaps on special occasions. Yet they are probably the most important historical symbols we have. We only have to look up each time we pass a statue, a cenotaph or a monument and we are reminded of the astonishing contribution made by our servicemen and servicewomen.

I would like at this moment to also acknowledge the special role members of the Royal Canadian Legion play in maintaining our remembrance of the dedication and sacrifice of those who served with distinction in defence of our country and our freedoms.

Unfortunately, the ravages of time and mother nature have taken their inevitable toll. Although the large monuments that come under the direct responsibility of governments remain in good shape, many others have not fared as well. I can tell members that this has been a matter of some study and consideration by the minister and within Veterans Affairs Canada for some time, as it has been for my hon. colleagues on both sides of the aisle, who have encouraged us to consider possible remedies.

Today we say to the sponsoring member and to all members who support the motion that the government agrees with them and with the communities that want help in restoring their monuments. We agree that Canadians from coast to coast should have visible reminders of a century of sacrifice. We agree that our young people should have places where they can offer their respects and thank the men and women who bought them the freedom to do so.

Those places exist now, in communities large and small. It is up to us to support local groups and communities to ensure that they continue to be there well into the future. The government agrees that we must help bring back to life some of the wonderful memorials that pay tribute to our war dead here in Canada, so that monuments large and small, in cities and towns large and small, will continue to speak for generations that are no longer able to speak for themselves.

That is what monuments do. They bear silent witness. They speak to our common history and humanity. They speak to our common heart. History, humanity and heart, all so very worthy of preserving.

[Rodger Cuzner, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure to stand here today and support my colleague, the member for Tobique—Mactaquac, on this very important private member's motion. I think there is even an extra importance to the motion today. It gives it additional relevance when we look at the fact that the year 2005 is the year of the veteran.

For the decades after the wars we were very fortunate to have first-hand accounts from veterans who returned and were able to give us their stories about the rigours of war, the sense of loss and the acts of bravery and courage, those things the people back home could barely understand. We are very fortunate that we have been able to at least begin to understand the heroism that was exhibited by our soldiers, by the men and women who served this country. We were at least able to begin to understand what they went through. They had to deal with the gruelling situations they found themselves in and with the loss of comrades and the loss of life.

I think that only those who have experienced it can really come to terms with the tragedy of war, but as a people we are fortunate that those veterans made a point of coming back and sharing with us at least the stories of courage and bravery. Many young lives were lost. Many lives were not lived and many pages were not turned. That is indeed sad.

As we go into the legion halls, meet with veterans groups, attend Remembrance Day ceremonies and go to the various services, it becomes more obvious that each year our veterans are fewer in number. There are fewer of those people who can stand and give testament to the horrors and tragedy of war and that is sad.

Certainly as a people and as a country, I know that we, along with the world, were really given a true dose of reality on September 11, 2001. The unprecedented attack on the World Trade Center really awakened us as a country and as a free people to the fact that we live in a global world and that we are certainly not insulated. We are not immune to the horrors of evil deeds and the horrors of terrorism.

At that time as well, I think, it awakened a great sense of reality that we have been very fortunate as a nation and as a free people to have had young men and women who have answered the call of a nation to fight for democracy and freedom during the second world war and since then. I think the events of September 11 really shook us and made us more aware of the fact that the price that was paid back then was dear and it was real. Since September 11, the numbers are greater at local Remembrance Day ceremonies. I know that last year approximately 15,000 people turned out to the Remembrance Day service here in the nation's capital.

That speaks to the fact that not just the baby boomers, but the families, friends, all Canadians are more respectful, more in tune and more aware now that it is important to keep the alive the memory of those who served and those who died. We are fortunate that communities are still in tune with that.

When it comes down to it, the importance of the motion and the gist of it, it is all about some of our utmost precious national icons, our cenotaphs, our monuments commemorating the sacrifice of the men and women who went to war, the men and who never came home, the men and women whose families still mourn.

Over the years, communities big and small have taken it upon themselves to ensure that these memories are not forgotten. Local legions, army, navy and air force veterans have taken on the responsibility of ensuring that these people are remembered. Provincial and municipal governments and community organization sometimes, but volunteers for the most part have driven the projects to erect cenotaphs and memorials for our fallen soldiers and loved ones. Their sheer hard work, sweat, equity and investment in fundraising events to put moneys together have ensured that these cenotaphs and monuments are established.

I know in my own constituency, the local legion in Louisburg, branch 62, back in the spring of 2002 embarked on a project to build a cenotaph and develop a park area around it, a very solemn and quiet space where one could go and reflect. I recall the group asking for financial support from the federal government. That was the first type of request of that nature which I was able to pursue. I was totally shocked that there was no avenue for the federal government to assist this group. The group took it upon themselves to raise money, with a number of different fundraisers and donations from the community. They were very generous. However, I was amazed that there was no vehicle or tool for us to get involved in a project like that.

I guess that addresses the fact that this motion should be enable the federal government to work with these community groups to develop and ensure that these monuments and cenotaphs are preserved.

Whatever government action there might be, it comes down to ways and means. What is the best use of federal dollars when we look at trying to ensure that we honour and celebrate the memories of those lost, the fallen soldiers? Is it through education programs through the schools? Is it through written materials, printed materials?

Cenotaphs and monuments are key in this. People can go to see the names, the numbers and the ages of those young people who answered the call to go and defend freedom and democracy.

The other key aspect of this is, in no way does the motion identify that the federal government wants to take over total responsibility.This is an opportunity for the federal government to step in and assist community groups, legions, army, navy, air force veterans groups and community organizations to ensure that the memories of these very important people, who contributed to the great country we have in Canada today, are respected.

I can assure members that I will be supporting the motion when it comes forward for a vote, and I would like to congratulate my colleague for bringing it forward.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I will be very brief, but I want to take the opportunity not only to thank the member for Cape Breton--Canso for his comments and who I think speaks for all of us in the House, but also to salute the member for Tobique--Mactaquac who is also our very capable caucus chair. I am not at all surprised that this wonderful initiative came from the member. I know how deeply committed he is to the cause of ensuring that our heritage is well respected in years to come. This very worthwhile motion speaks to our heritage. It speaks to our proudest moments and to our moments of reflection.

I had the opportunity last year to be at Ypres. I was rather amazed at the number of Canadian soldiers lost in that battle, given the very small numbers that we had as a nation. I also was amazed at the statue commemorating the 1915 gas attack, which would be about 45 feet high. It was being redone by the Government of Canada. What an example of the tragedy, but also the great bravery of our men as they fought for the right cause and for the right reasons at a particular time.

There is concern about the state of disrepair of many of our monuments. However, I am also rising today because just a few days ago I had an opportunity to speak to members of one of the legions in my riding, Branch 606, as well as the mayor of Pickering, Mayor David Ryan. We have a concern over the movement of a particular monument commemorating the 1943 battle at Ortona, a significant battle where a number of our soldiers not only fought bravely, but many were wounded or perished in the assault. It was probably again another example of Canadian gallantry. Pickering has for some time wanted to move the cenotaph to a place that is more appropriate and fitting so people will see it.

The initiative by the member is not only one that he believes is important. It is clear that members of Parliament hear all have reasons and cause to ensure that the brave memory of those who fought for us, those who were prepared to give their lives for us, for this Parliament which exists today, including the statue of George Baker, a former member of Parliament who was killed in 1916, is respected through advice to the government, which is what we deem in terms of a motion.

Every day the Globe and Mail for the past few weeks has been continuing with a small picture and a few anecdotes about where Canada was 60 years ago today, as we head toward the denouement of the second world war, certainly in terms of May of 1945. It is interesting to note that in a very short period of time, starting with the Normandy invasion on June 6 all the way to May 7, virtually half of all servicemen who were killed in the second world war were killed during that period of time. It is important that we do not just talk about these things as we hit certain milestones, but that we in fact are able to give quiet reflection on what these people did to create the great democracy which we now enjoy and a debt for which we can never truly pay.

I also want to give thanks to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission which looks after many of the graves of Canadian fallen soldiers and other allied soldiers of the British Commonwealth. It is important for us to consider that in context of doing so well there, we can do more in terms of memorials.

I also hope these monuments in my Province of Ontario and the beautiful Province of Quebec do not simply become monuments that people do not bother to respect. I find it somewhat strange that these two provinces do not have motions in force to recognize November 11. If they did, all Canadians, from coast to coast, could celebrate together the great victories and the dedication of our soldiers still so vibrant today.

I commend the hon. member for his motion. I hope there will be ears in the legislature of Ontario and the great national assembly in Quebec and I hope that motions will indeed take place to give force to November 11 as a truly national holiday and that we make a point and a purpose of these monuments. I hope the monuments will become a place for our children and generations to visit and ensure that the proper amount of respect is given. I can think of no higher way for this Parliament to do this than to support the motion of my hon., very capable and devoted colleague from Tobique--Mactaquac. Without his motion, we could not go forward. We should try at the very least to pass this unanimously.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Tobique—Mactaquac by speaking will close the debate. He has five minutes to reply.

[Andy Savoy, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleagues who have indicated their support for my motion. We have talked about the pain and suffering of various veterans from the past wars, World War I, World War II, the Korean War and wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the need to recognize their sacrifices. I will put into context what those sacrifices were.

I have not known war in my lifetime. I have learned about war from history books as many people in the House have. We have heard stories from veterans at our Remembrance Day ceremonies. Let us look at some of the past wars and experiences. I would like to share a few with members now.

Bellenden Hutcheson won the Victoria Cross and the military cross. He was in the 76th Brigade of the Royal Field Artillery at Vimy Ridge. In a letter he wrote to a colleague, he said:

I felt particularly sorry for the young artillery men, (and many of them were about 19) who were being subjected to the ordeal. I remember one man who had a ghastly wound which would obviously prove fatal in a short time, pleading with me, amidst the turmoil of the explosions, to shoot him...Every soldier who has seen action since knows that it requires the highest type of stamina and bravery for troops to lie in a trench and take a heavy shelling without being demoralized and panic stricken, therefore I shall always remember the orderly rescue work carried on by the officers and men of the artillery in the face of the concentrated shelling that occurred that afternoon.

I do not think we can realize the horror of war. However. when we hear accounts of a soldier asking his doctor to shoot him amid heavy shelling, it gives us an idea of the pain and suffering that people went through during war time.

During the Korean War, for example, a Military Cross recipient Lieutenant Colonel Edgar Hollyer, in documenting why he received the Military Cross, talked about what he had done and the terrible situation in which he had put himself. Not only was he in a situation where he exhibited bravery, but he was surrounded by enemy troops in the Korean War. In order to fight for his country for freedom, he asked them to bombard the coordinates where he was sitting because he was surrounded. He said “bomb me where I sit because there are army troops around me”. He thought that was the most effective strategy. He put his life on the line so he would have the most impact in the war theatre.

Many of our colleagues in the House will remember a gentleman named Smokey Smith from New Westminster, B.C. As an MP, we often entertain guests in the gallery after question period. On of the proudest moments I had was when Smokey Smith was guest. Many members will remember the rousing ovation we gave him as the last surviving Victoria Cross winner.

There was an interview with Smokey Smith about his time in the Italian campaign in World War II. They had just knocked out a tank. He lost everybody in his group, and he was left alone. In the interview, he said the tank out. The interviewer then asked about the German infantrymen who were in the back of the tank and who swarmed around to the front and came toward him. He said “That is right”. The interviewer asked him how far would they have been from him and he said, “Oh, 30 feet, 25 feet, something like that”. The interviewer then asked who was firing at him and he said, “Nobody, just me because Jimmy was still in the ditch, he was wounded”. The interviewer said “So these 10 or so German infantry men were coming at you and you fired at them”? He said “ I opened up”. The interviewer then asked him what happen and he said, “Well, I got four of them; the rest of them took off, thank the Lord”.

Another story comes from my family's hometown of Saint John West. A gentleman named Donald Thompson talked about freedom. He talked about meeting a German gentleman in Inverary at the unveiling of a Canadian museum. The German gentleman talked about the fight with Germany and he apologized to him. The German said that he was sorry if he was offended by anything he had said. He said that he was not offended by his comments. He said that every thinking German would agree with him when he said, “If Hitler had won, we would not be free. So thank God you won”. That is the important thing that comes from war.

Those were in the words of Donald Thompson. He went on to say, “Mr. Thompson, it is important that young people and future generations of Canadians come to understand what you and your generation endured.

He responded by saying, “I think it is important from the point of view of the future of the country and the value of freedom. I think freedom is such an important thing, and it is something that comes at a price. If we take it for granted, then we can lose it. We can lose it, not only just from external forces, but we can lose it from internal conditions. So I think it is important that they realize the price that has been paid and realize that they have to be willing themselves, maybe not to”--

[The Speaker]

Order, please. I am afraid the hon. member's time has expired. It is now my duty to put the question.

The hon. member for Verchères—Les Patriotes on a point of order.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Mr. Speaker, could I ask for unanimous consent to allow my colleague at least to finish his sentence so that his complete thought appears in Hansard. This seems like the right thing to do for a motion in honour of our veterans.

[The Speaker]

Is there unanimous consent of the House to allow the hon. member to complete his sentence?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Tobique--Mactaquac may complete his remarks.

[Andy Savoy, Liberal, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleagues.

In completion, the war memorials bear witness, silent witness, to those who gave their lives for us and to those who protect us still.

Our job is to make sure the stories of Canada's veterans, men and women who served us so nobly in war and so ably in peace, are remembered and the memories are passed on to our children.

In a small way that is really what the motion is all about. It is a tangible demonstration of our pledge. We pledge to them to never forget.

[The Speaker]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Speaker, on November 3, I asked a question in the following words:

It is not just the forest workers in Nanaimo—Alberni who are suffering from the iniquitous imposition of countervailing duties. In Abitibi, Mauricie, Beauce and Bois-Francs, too, people are waiting for a fair and equitable settlement. The Liberals have the distrust and disdain of the Americans. Today, their partisan choice will cost exporters dearly.

When, in fact, is the government going to return the overpayment to softwood lumber producers?

I asked that question on behalf of the forest workers in Abitibi, in Mauricie and in Beauce, as well as on behalf of the workers in Nanaimo--Alberni and on Vancouver Island who also have been hit hard by the softwood lumber problem.

This softwood lumber dispute has been going on longer than anyone can imagine. People are upset, and rightly so, with the action the government says it is taking because we do not see action and we do not see resolution.

People are upset by the Liberal government's anti-American comments coming down which certainly have not helped in solving the issue, especially the derogatory remarks made by the former Prime Minister's director of communications and by the member for Mississauga—Erindale, and with cabinet ministers brandishing their partisan support for the candidate who did not win in the U.S. election.

Concerns have been raised in the business community on the effects these outbursts have had on Canada-U.S. relations. Tom d'Aquino, president of the Canadian Council of Chief Executives, said that our relationship was contaminated by Liberal anti-Americanism.

Perrin Beatty, president of the Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters Association, noted that Canada does $1 million a minute worth of business. He has better things to do with his time than try to explain to his American customers that the Liberal Party sentiment does not represent the rest of Canada.

We are concerned that not only has foot-dragging been a problem, but we have a real big problem now because we have tariffs, countervailing duties, anti-dumping duties that have cost our industry over $4 billion, $4.1 billion now, that are not being returned.

Because the government was asleep at the switch we missed a prime opportunity. Under chapter 19 of NAFTA we had the right to confront that Byrd amendment when it came in, that law in the U.S. which really has been sabotaging the dispute resolution process and allowing the Americans to hold our countervailing duties hostage. Those moneys should be coming back to our industry after the rulings we have already had under NAFTA, but because the government failed to act on the Byrd amendment, we are in this position now where they are holding some $4 billion of our industry's money.

Workers in our communities have been hurt hard. The government is making noises about getting some of that money back. There is $17 million that we could perhaps get back in tariffs on other products. The minister is making noises about trying to secure the $4 billion through putting tariffs on other U.S. products coming into Canada. In a sense it is going to hurt our own industry and our own people to get this money back.

We want to know what the government is going to do to get these tariffs back. Furthermore, I want to state that we have paid a terrible price in our communities because of this failure to adequately address this agreement. We have workers now who are basically unemployed. We have the Franklin River division in Port Alberni down. We have the Sproat Lake division that has recently closed down. There were another 200 workers there. We have another 200 workers in a pulp mill threatened; that is not directly related to this but it is in the same community.

Our communities have been hit hard. They want to know when this is going to be resolved and they would like some action on behalf of the government.