Debates of Feb. 7th, 2005

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Telecommunications Act

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure speak today to Bill C-37, the creation of a suggested do not call list, something that we as New Democrats actually had in the election platform, as well as other initiatives for consumers, including the reduction and control over credit card interest rates and lowering the GST, as part of a package relating to consumer initiatives that we were putting forth.

[Some hon. members]

Great NDP ideas.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Absolutely, a great idea. It is something that provincially as well we have been advocating.

The bill is going to be very important to get at some finer details that are still missing from the legislation. Although we are going to support moving it to committee and we are supporting the concept, there are a few things we need to take a look at.

I want to start by giving some background to this. We know there already is a process from the Canadian Marketing Association where if we do not want to be on a call list we can put our name on. However many of my constituents have complained about wanting to have actual legislation with repercussions for those who violate the process. They want accountability in terms of legislation. If people really want to get off the list and they know the companies will be mandated to follow those initiatives laid out in the legislation they will be able to check every 90 days to see if they are on or off the list.

One of the things we value so much in this country is our privacy. In fact it is not talked about enough. Our personal privacy and the personal privacy of our families is really the essence of democracy, the ability to feel free at home and out in society, but that is being invaded to a certain degree by telemarketing.

There are some great telemarketers out there and the legislation would provide access for those who do want this service to their homes. At the same time, there are also telemarketers who are very determined to call multiple times. They use different strategies by forward calling to see if someone is home. They call at different hours depending upon the region and the times. It is just inconvenient for some people.

For example, I have a one year old son and a four year old daughter and when a telemarketer calls at dinner time it is not very convenient. I would argue that most of them are getting better about respecting people's privacy at home but others will call back and insist on it or push it forward to the next person.

There are issues related to the actual type of calling as well. The people receiving these calls often feel assaulted or pressured about that type of initiative. I know seniors have sometimes felt compelled to purchase or say things to get telemarketers off the phone. Working in the past with persons with disabilities I know they have the same type of experience where they just wanted to get the caller off the phone, or where there was a misunderstanding about the commitment that was taking place that would lead to another stage of the process of either acquiring a ticket for something, or a contribution for something, or a product that would then be billed to the person in their home. It is imperative that we have an examination of the bill.

One of my concerns about the bill is that it would have the CRTC monitoring this and it would be the actual provider of the service but it would be able to outsource this work. We have seen from this government the breaches in personal privacy because of the patriot act. We know the government is currently auditing many of the different departments and it is one thing that gives me great concern. It is costing Canadians millions of dollars to go back and redo work. I am glad that is happening finally now but I will give an example.

When the government decided to outsource the census, it realized that the data collection by Lockheed Martin, one of the world's largest arms manufacturing outfits that won the contract, which was highly controversial in itself, but second to that, it was going to outsource the data collection to the United States. That outsourcing caused a breach in Canadian security and a breach of privacy that has cost us dearly. The government has refused to answer in terms of how much specifically it has cost right now but it had to go through a number of steps, which is why I will be very interested to see how the outsourcing issue works.

One of the steps that it had to admit to, and this is from the chief statistician, was that for the 2006 census operation site we will have a security audit completed by at least three independent information technology security firms prior to beginning the processing operation. In addition, even though the census test operations are in Statistics Canada's head office building, the chief statistician has requested an independent security audit at the site as well.

They also took three other types of initiatives. Because this government was absolutely driven by the ideology that the public service is bad and the civil service cannot complete tasks, even though the fact of the matter is that the census had always been done in-house, for many years, it was driven by this ideology and so it outsourced the contract and caused the privacy breach.

That is my concern with the CRTC in this situation: we could see outsourcing with another breach of Canadian privacy. People who call in to be on the do not call list are going to be providing information to make sure that they are registered and to make sure that they are not going to be harassed or solicited the way they were in the past by these companies. That is very important. If we are going to give that up to the CRTC and it is going to be able to independently do this, then we need to find out the terms and conditions to ensure that we do not have a breach of Canadian privacy.

A number of different things are also very important in the bill. They will be special features as opposed to the voluntary issue that we have right now. One is the start of administrative monetary penalties. Penalties can be imposed on an individual, who could be charged $5,000 for an illegal call, and corporations will be charged up to $15,000.

There will be a process whereby companies and individuals that violate this law can then be prosecuted. We are actually adding teeth to what currently exists. That is very important, because if this type of activity is just seen as a drawing a slap on the hand or a warning and there is no real complaint process that leads to a penalty, there is not much of an incentive to stop this practice and respect people's privacy.

I would also like to point out that we as New Democrats are really proud to have finally pushed the government to do the right thing in stopping fines from being tax deductible. Business fines, environmental fines and a number of different levies after court cases, or penalties after tribunals, issued to companies for practices and behaviour that led to the breaking of laws used to be tax deductible. That tax deductibility element is finally being ended right now.

It was promised in the budget speech and never happened. We forced it at the industry committee so that it would be tabled back in the House of Commons and in Bill C-33 the government finally agreed to reintroduce that legislation. We now are going to see that very important aspect. It is just unbelievable that in this day and age a company can be fined and at the same time claim it back at tax season as a business related expense.

I am sure that a lot of Canadians who have paid a traffic ticket or a parking ticket would like to be able to claim it at the end of the year and get some of it back. Why companies could do it forever, I have no idea. Since 2002 it has taken three years to get this corrected. We are very pleased that we have been able to push that victory, because there is no sense in increasing fines if people are going to get more taxes back. Why the government would shovel money their way, we have no idea, but that has finally ended.

We are going to be looking at the impact of the bill on charities. Charitable organizations often derive many of their proceeds from calling. It is important to note that there are going to be provisions whereby they would be able to work with this legislation. We want to make sure that it does not eliminate or block the ability to do telephone solicitation for specific purposes.

We will hear at committee about some of those purposes. Right now, for example, political parties are not on the call list, which creates a big complication for reaching out to voters and also reaching out to individuals for volunteerism, which often happens through the party systems we have right now. These are things that will have to be discussed to ensure that there will be the ability for people to make contact.

It will be good to hear from the charitable organizations about the do not call list. I know that a number have already called in to express their concerns about a few issues but also with some support if it is done appropriately.

There has also been an impact on businesses, which are very much concerned, and we like to hear their issues. One person wrote in from Beautyrock Inc.. The person was concerned about the do not call list and also the violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In fact, the submission actually stated, “I think Mr. Trudeau would jump out of his grave if he thought individuals and businesses would be shut out from tooting their own horn.” That is in terms of an expression related to that opinion on the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I think it is important for us to hear from those businesses that are going to make claims about and will have some expertise in understanding what this legislation will do to them and their employees. At the same time, I think we have to go back to what is really important here at the end of the day and that is for persons to be able to control the environments they are paying for, that is, their homes. People do have and should have the control element in order to have privacy.

That is why we are in support of moving this to committee. We believe we can work out this file's smaller details to ensure that people can enjoy their privacy and that charitable organizations and groups can still enjoy the fruits of their success through campaigning.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak on the referral stage debate of Bill C-37, an act to amend the Telecommunications Act. The goal of the bill is to create the right regulatory environment for sensible, smart telemarketing. We want to safeguard the privacy of Canadians and their right to choose with whom they wish to communicate.

Bill C-37 deals with unsolicited telemarketing and proposes to create a national do not call list. Such a list, administered by the CRTC, is preferable to other more regulatory approaches. Through the bill, the government is taking steps to give Canadians an effective and easy way to curtail intrusive telemarketing and protect their privacy.

Canada is not alone in facing the challenge of balancing the wishes of consumers with the needs of the telemarketing industry. I would remind the House that telemarketing activities span a very broad spectrum, from legitimate commercial enterprises with existing customers to fraudulent calls that prey on seniors and the unsuspecting.

Legitimate telemarketers and the marketing industry require an environment where they can conduct their business in a way that is acceptable to most Canadians. They have asked for a regulatory environment where their integrity is not undermined by the activities of the less scrupulous telemarketers.

The bill before us creates a model that would promote a positive atmosphere for legitimate businesses to undertake commercial communications within a well regulated structure. The amendments would strengthen the role of the CRTC under the Telecommunications Act with respect to the regulation of telecommunications facilities for unsolicited telecommunications to prevent undue inconvenience or nuisance.

Public opinion polls tell us that unsolicited telecommunications have become an inconvenience and a nuisance for many Canadians. In fact, during a survey conducted in 2003, 97% of respondents reported a negative reaction to unsolicited calls, with 38% saying they tolerate the calls, 35% reporting being annoyed by them, and 24% saying they hated receiving them. The majority of respondents, nearly four out of five, supported the creation of a national do not call list. Some two-thirds indicated they would likely sign up for a do not call list service.

I would like to remind the House that the CRTC imposed limitations on telemarketing in 1994. These limitations included a requirement that telemarketers maintain individual do not call lists. This provision, however, required consumers to enlist with each telemarketer separately, and there may be hundreds of telemarketers. The consumer has no way of knowing when his or her number may find its way onto another telemarketing list. It is not surprising, therefore, that many consumers consider this practice unsatisfactory.

Earlier this year, however, the regulator rendered Telecom Decision CRTC 2004-35, “Review of telemarketing rules”. In this decision, the CRTC concluded that a national do not call list had considerable merit and recommended a do not call list as approach that is preferable to other regulatory approaches. In its decision, the regulator also noted that changes to legislation would be necessary to enable it to operate a do not call list effectively.

What is required?

The bill before us would enable the CRTC to do three things: first, impose fines for non-compliance; second, establish a third party administrator to operate a database; and third, give the ability to set fees to recover costs associated with maintaining the list.

When the bill has been passed, we expect that the CRTC will undertake consultations to find an administrator of the do not call list. It will also determine how the list will operate and how much it will cost.

The CRTC will also consider whether any types of calls should be exempt from the do not call list.

In particular, I would like to make a recommendation that was raised by one of my constituents of Don Valley East. At all hours of the day and night he is harassed by unwanted fax transmissions. Similar to unwanted telephone solicitations, unwanted faxes can be equally intrusive and a waste of paper in home offices.

When the CRTC announced interim rules on telemarketing as a result of telecom decision CRTC 2004-35, the industry stakeholders maintained that these rules imposed too high a regulatory burden. The industry itself prefers a national do not call list. The CRTC has stayed its interim rules and awaits the passage of this bill before implementing a new regulatory regime.

In fact the industry may become more efficient and productive as a result of the creation of a do not call list. This would eliminate calls to individuals who do not want to be contacted and thereby reduce the number of unsuccessful calls. By passing the bill we would enable the CRTC to move forward on this issue.

Telemarketing has become more and more pervasive. There is no sign that it is going away. The inability to control a telemarketer's access to phones in our homes and businesses has become a source of frustration for a large percentage of Canadians. With this bill we provide the CRTC with the necessary tools it requires to enforce a national do not call list. In that way we give Canadians an easy and effective way to curtail intrusive calls. We will take steps to protect their privacy.

I urge hon. members in the House to support the bill.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak in support of Bill C-37, an act to amend the Telecommunications Act.

This is a bill that responds to the needs of Canadian consumers. They are fed up with unwanted and unsolicited telemarketing calls. I am sure that every member in the House could give anecdotal evidence of the frustrations felt by our families, friends and neighbours. Many of us could speak from personal experience. Everyone can tell a story about being interrupted by telemarketers in the middle of dinner or in the midst of putting the kids to bed or some other quiet time.

There are times when we are willing to listen to people who want to sell us something, or want us to donate to a worthy cause. There are other times when these pitches are intrusive and a nuisance.

But we no longer need to rely upon anecdotal evidence to tell us what Canadians think about telemarketing. In 2003, Environics conducted a survey on consumer attitudes toward telemarketing, and 81% of respondents reported receiving unsolicited calls. On average, respondents received 3.43 unsolicited calls per week.

Of those consumers who receive at least one call per week, 44% are more likely to report receiving calls from charities; 24% report receiving calls from firms they have done business with in the past; and 27% report receiving calls from firms with which they have not done business.

Hon. members will not be surprised to learn that many Canadians do not like receiving unsolicited telemarketing calls. The poll tells us that 38% tolerate them; 35% are annoyed by them; and fully 24% say that they hate them. In fact, some 14% of the people Environics polled reported that they had tried to make a complaint regarding an unsolicited call.

Among this subgroup 39% indicated that the complaint was resolved. A significant majority, 59%, said that their complaints were not resolved. This is an indication of a system that simply does not work. When nearly three out of five complainants state that their complaints were not resolved, we know that there is something wrong with the framework laws that govern telemarketing.

It is time to present some accountability and consumer response to the telemarketing rules. That is precisely what the bill does. It provides Canadians with an effective, easy way to curtail intrusive telemarketing and establishes the authority to set fines against those telemarketers who ignore the rules.

At the heart of the bill is the government's decision to create a national do not call list. The Environics research indicates that 79% of those surveyed would support a national do not call list, and 66% likely would sign up for the service.

The bill gives the CRTC the authority to set up an arm's length administrator for that list, and the authority to fine those telemarketing companies that persist in calling people who have registered on the list. The bill also provides the CRTC with the authority to establish fees to recover the costs of maintaining this system.

Once this bill has been passed, the CRTC will undertake public consultations to work out the implementation details. It will seek public comment on what types of organizations should be required to use the do not call list, and on who should pay for the operation of the list.

To get an idea how this system would operate, we need only look south of the border to see how a comparable system in the United States works. Media coverage has made the Canadian public well aware of the success of a national do not call registry to regulate telemarketing there.

In the U.S., telemarketing businesses are required to register with a regulator. A minimum of once every three months they must download an updated list of registered telephone numbers. These registered telephone numbers will come from consumers who have requested to not be called. The telemarketing businesses are required to delete any registered do not call telephone numbers from their call databases.

In Canada there would be penalties for telemarketers who violated the do not call list. The penalties would be $1,500 per offence for a person and $15,000 per offence for a corporation. The CRTC's decisions to impose penalties would be subject to review by the CRTC itself and may be referred to the Federal Court of Appeal.

Consumer groups, including the Public Interest Advocacy Centre, already favour the creation of a national do not call list. We know that 79% of those surveyed by Environics also said they would be in favour of a national do not call list. I am sure that if hon. members canvassed their constituents they would find them solidly in favour of a national do not call list.

I know that many of my colleagues on the other side of the House have also favoured this approach to regulating telemarketing. I especially want to acknowledge the work done on this issue by the hon. member for Vancouver Island North.

Occasionally the House has the opportunity to do something good, something great, for many Canadians. Sometimes these issues have enormous magnitude, such as improving the quality of our health care system, or ensuring that Canadians from low income families have an opportunity for higher education. However, I venture to say that there are few bills that would receive such widespread support as the one we are debating today.

It would create the right regulatory environment for sensible, smart telemarketing. It would safeguard the privacy of Canadians and their right to choose with whom they wish to communicate. For thousands of Canadians who may opt to register on a national do not call list, it would mean quiet evenings with their families free from commercial interruption.

I urge my colleagues to join me in supporting this bill.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today to address an issue that is of interest to many Canadians.

It would be safe to say that few people enjoy receiving a call from a telemarketer during supper hour. In fact public frustration with the persistence of ill-timed incoming phone calls has entered the realm of popular culture. I am not sure if members remember the Seinfeld episode where Jerry Seinfeld turned the tables on the telemarketer by saying he was too busy and asked the caller for his phone number so that Jerry might call him back during the caller's supper hour. This amusing sitcom moment illustrates the intrusion felt by many of my constituents when the phone rings as they are about to sit down for dinner or do something with their children. Someone is either trying to sell them something, probe them for information, or leave them listening to a recording.

Clearly the Conservative Party and I as the representative for the riding of Saskatoon--Humboldt do not support such invasions of privacy.

Let me say that the principle of this bill, the underlying goal, is very good. However the do not call legislation under discussion has some serious problems. Legislation that is flawed but good in principle must be amended. It is typical of the government to produce such legislation.

As has been pointed out too often in the past, Liberal governments try to deal with important issues by designing half-baked solutions. Ask any farmer in my riding about the prospect of losing their land without guaranteed compensation under the Species at Risk Act and members will get an idea of what I am referring to by poorly crafted laws.

Let me pause for a moment in order to say one thing about the Species at Risk Act to illustrate the problem of poorly thought out legislation. If only the federal government had had the presence of mind to work with farmers and ranchers, the protection of wildlife habitat could have taken a quantum leap forward across this country. We in the Conservative Party recognize that our farmers and ranchers are stewards of the land. They are quite willing to preserve the habitat, to cooperate with groups such as Ducks Unlimited Canada, yet the Liberals in their anti-rural and often unthinking way with their legislation showed evidence of not following through on the details. In bills like the Species at Risk Act the devil was in the details, as it is with this legislation.

Bill C-37 is poorly drafted legislation because the bill is very scant on important details. Bill C-37 would allow the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, the CRTC, to create a national do not call list. The CRTC would be empowered through Bill C-37 to hit telemarketers with substantial penalties. Bill C-37 does not spell out how this national do not call list would be maintained. There are no details in this bill concerning what information would be required from consumers to build the list into an effective database. There are no details in Bill C-37 setting up how telemarketers would check the do not call list in order to comply with the law. There are no details in Bill C-37 setting out how often telemarketers would have to check the list to be operating within the law. These are all important details, and details can change legislation.

In summary, under Bill C-37 telemarketers could be fined $1,500 per offending call, for individuals. The penalty for corporations that do not respect the do not call list is $15,000 per offending call. However there are no details in Bill C-37 setting out how telemarketers would check the national do not call list in order to comply with the laws.

In addition Bill C-37 does not explain who would have access to the do not call list. Imagine that, a national database of telephone numbers, callers' names, and who knows what other information provided by callers, and there are no legal parameters spelling out who has access to this information. We must be sure in this legislation that we do not, in seeking to protect privacy, end up invading privacy even more severely.

To top this all off, Bill C-37 does not have any reporting requirements on how the list is being run. Let us consider the implications of this. It would be a massive database with no reporting requirements. It is rather odd that there is nothing in Bill C-37 about these reporting requirements.

I thought the Prime Minister was going to have more government transparency and accountability as hallmarks of his government. Apparently, the timely reviews of government programs are not a priority of the Liberals. We need to know the details. We need to have proof up front about how the bill would work.

Too often we have seen that there are promises made and they never seem to be delivered. As another example of other government activities, I point to what my colleague from Edmonton—Leduc is still waiting for, a full review of Technology Partnerships Canada. It is a review that has been promised to be undertaken by three industry ministers.

Canadians watching this debate will be pleased to know that the Liberals have strived to recover a stunning 5% of the $2 billion in Liberal taxpayers' money spent on TPC since 1996. The government is following up this excess with the national do not call list, with no reporting requirements. Promises must be spelled out so that promises are kept.

We think of another registry, the national gun registry, a $2 million program that ballooned to $2 billion. Now the Liberals want to create another mega database of information, allowing the CRTC to create and regulate a do not call list as it sees fit.

Will the do not call list turn into another gun registry in terms of costs and management? I certainly hope not, but with this government, it is more than possible. Is the creation of a do not call list, its administration and enforcement including the penalty phase, within the CRTC mandate?

Finally, I want to talk about the bill's effect on charities. There are no exceptions in the bill for charities or companies that wish to have a relationship going on between themselves and their current existing clients, whether it is a charity or other groups that use the telephone to contact their members or clients.

In addition to a wide range of charities, this group could include telephone survey, polling companies and political organizations such as parties. Many charities and not for profit organizations rely on telemarketing campaigns. Without proper thought, exemptions for charities, Bill C-37 is going to severely restrict the good that a lot of groups do for our fellow Canadians, and people abroad like tsunami victims.

Personally, I do not know what the Liberals have against charities and volunteer groups. They drew up Bill C-21, the Canada not for profit corporations act, a bill which places a heavy burden, a continual bureaucratic burden, on not for profit corporations to keep up with all the reporting requirements stipulated by Industry Canada.

The legislation has been described as very detailed and technical, even by officials at Industry Canada. Bill C-21 is thick with regulations. Volunteer groups and service clubs will have to change their bylaws and their constitutions in order to comply with this new act. The legislation with its long list of requirements would make it harder to attract good volunteers and good directors for not for profit organizations.

Now the Liberals have brought forward Bill C-37 without any exemptions or exceptions for charities. What we have here is another Liberal example of symbol over substance. The PMO is quite happy to have a photo op showing the Prime Minister drinking purified water by the DART members, quipping meanwhile that he needs a little scotch while the troops are in, of all things, a dry camp.

While the Prime Minister is touring tsunami ravaged areas, the Liberals back here in Ottawa are pushing forward legislation that would hurt charities and not for profit groups to raise funds for others. I hope this is pure thoughtlessness.

A do not call list of some fashion would provide relief to people across our country who do not want their family time, their meals or TV programs interrupted by someone on the other end of the telephone selling some unsolicited service. I support the principle involved, but I believe the details need to be adjusted.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Rivière-Du-Loup—Montmagny, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak today on this bill to amend the Telecommunications Act. Let us first recall the purpose of this bill. We all know what telemarketing is. What it means, in concrete terms, is that our phones ring on Friday night, or Saturday morning, or during the week, with offers to sell us the best product in the world. Often we are not very interested because we already have all the services we need.

For example, if we have just renewed our insurance policies, someone calls us to propose insurance services on a Friday night, while we are entertaining or busy with the family. If there were a way to avoid being interrupted by such calls, many people would jump at the chance. A poll by Environics, in fact, reports that 79% of Canadians say they would support a Canadian do not call list, and 66% indicated that they would subscribe to such a service. In other words, two out of three people would like to be removed from the list so they were no longer bothered by such calls.

In the United States, both legislation and practice have been developing and show interesting results on what they also refer to as a do not call list. For example, it is reported that the first year this law was in effect, 62 million Americans put themselves on the list, and there were 428,000 charges laid against offending companies. Thus, there is a way to create a means to take care of this problem.

We have already seen such things in other sectors where it was easier, such as the distribution of advertising flyers every week in the Ad-Bag. If we do not want them, they are not left at our door, and the address is corrected.

In telecommunications, we are not yet at that level. Now we even have automated telemarketing. A machine calls you up, talks to you, bothers you for several minutes. You have to answer that machine's calls. Personally, I am not very interested in getting calls from machines. Moreover, when the calls are about subjects we have no interest in, we absolutely need a way to correct the situation.

However, in the bill that was introduced and in favour of which the Bloc Québécois will vote, there are still elements that are quite imprecise. For example, the bill does not specify any exclusion provision about the list of calls that would not be allowed and those that would.

We would like not-for-profit charitable organizations to be excluded from this list. We have seen this during the most recent international events. I think that it may be appropriate not to take away this tool from organizations that are really charitable, that seek to collect funds for international aid or aid in our communities to fight poverty. However, this must be well regulated to ensure that people will not do indirectly what they could no longer do directly.

We should thus ensure that organizations that are exempted have all the necessary authorizations and permits and that they are indeed charitable organizations. There are also political parties. For the quality of democratic life, it would be important that they be exempted from this list. The same goes for business contacts, that is, we call someone, we have already established a contact and they call us back. This must be specified as much as possible so that we have an operational law that will have the desired effects.

The bill would allow the Canadian Radio-Television and Telecommunications Commission to administer databases for the purpose of its power under section 41, namely the power to:

--prohibit or regulate the use by any person of the telecommunications facilities of a Canadian carrier for the provision of unsolicited telecommunications to the extent that the Commission considers it necessary to prevent undue inconvenience or nuisance, giving due regard to freedom of expression.

I think we will also have to ensure something else. There are many call centres located outside Canada, and even outside North America. We sometimes receive calls from all parts of the world and we must get in touch with them. We will have to ensure that the provisions dealing with this issue in our legislation are sound and strict.

Indeed, if we were to prohibit Quebec or Canadian companies from doing this, but they could still do it indirectly, through branches in the United States or elsewhere in the world, we would not gain anything. We would only, once again, help the moving of our jobs out of the country.

We must ensure that there is adequate protection to deal with these issues, and that the procedures to prosecute these companies are very clear, so that we do not become entangled in legal battles.

The CRTC is known for the studies it does and the permits and licenses it issues. These sometimes take a lot of time. We should make sure that, when it implements this bill, the CRTC shifts into high gear, and that it has the resources to execute its mandate. It should also follow up the implementation of this bill, and make sure this follow-up is different from the one on complaints about licenses and permits so as to avoid getting mired in a multitude of complaints.

During the first year, in the United States, 428,000 complaints were filed against non complying companies. In Canada, if we had only 42,000 or 40,000, we should be able to handle them if we are to provide adequate service. If somebody is on the do not call list and still gets calls, and if he files a complaint and the situation is not corrected, this service will be counterproductive.

We must make sure this system is foolproof, operational and efficient and that penalties are tough enough to completely dissuade companies from engaging in this kind of activity when they know it is prohibited. If a company sells high value products worth $100, $200, $500 and the fine for an illegal call is $3 or $5, it will soon figure out that, with the high price of its products, it is worth taking a chance and act illegally.

So, there must be a sufficiently detailed consideration in committee. The principle of the bill is acceptable to us and we agree to support it. However, the Bloc Québécois hopes that the work in committee will allow a sufficient number of amendments to be made so as to have a real impact and ensure legislation that will truly meet the industry's current and future needs.

We see how fast the telecommunications sector is changing. Often, the regulations are outdated with regard to existing telecommunications. The legislation we pass in third reading must be as current as possible with regard to known future telecommunications. We must ensure that there will not be any problems in this regard.

The bill before us is a welcome one. It corresponds to the kind of action the public mandated us to take when it elected a minority government, in other words to correct things that were inadequate in the past. Often, in such cases, lobbying by companies was much stronger than by the public. In contrast, the fact that there is a minority government means that lobbying of the government by individuals carries more weight. This must be brought to the fore.

We have here a concrete example of a positive result. We hope we will see similar results in the government's next budget. Here again, it must contain elements presented by the opposition parties and which the government will have adopted as its own. A number correspond to commitments it made during the election campaign. Often, the day after an election, a majority government forgets the commitments it made. A minority government, however, is obligated to keep its promises, otherwise it goes back before the electorate and could pay the price.

The government still has to prove itself through its actions. In the field of telecommunications, specifically telemarketing, this is a step in the right direction. We hope that consideration in committee will ensure that the real objectives of the government and this House are reached and that the relevant amendments will be made. The Bloc Québécois will collaborate to ensure that this goal is reached.

[Paddy Torsney, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Cooperation]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to speak to Bill C-37. It was very important that the minister introduce this bill. I was quite surprised, during this debate, to hear the member for Saskatoon—Humboldt.

Saskatchewan is one of the provinces that has been leading the way in assisting consumers to put themselves on a list. SaskTel has a specific service to aid consumers who want to stop these unwanted calls.

Let us be clear. The telemarketing industry is an important industry in Canada. It has a very legitimate place in the marketing grid. Marketing is important. Marketers have to get their product to the right people at the right time and in the right place, but they want to ensure that they do not annoy customers. All of us as members of Parliament have heard from constituents who are spending precious time with their families, trying to instill good values and have some quiet time, yet are being inundated by callers. They need a do not call registry.

The other day I was helping out somebody who had been away for a couple of days. I opened the individual's voice mail and found that seven out of ten calls were from unwanted telephoners. They are the kind that I want the minister to include in the legislation, the kind that are dumped in, as somebody mentioned earlier, to the voice mail system.

Telemarketing is important to our country. It provides important jobs. It is important to the business community. That is why the business community particularly supports the bill. The Canadian Marketing Association and I have been working on this. My private member's bill, Bill C-520, was introduced in the last Parliament and enjoyed support from consumer groups and businesses. They want to clean up the industry.

Right now they are maintaining, as individual companies, a whole series of registries to avoid calling people who do not want to be called by these individuals. It will be cheaper, more effective and more efficient, particularly for Canadians, to have one do not call registry, one that would list their names, addresses and phone numbers in case there are two people living in the same location sharing a phone number. It has to be specific to the individual and to the address in case phone numbers are reissued to other individuals.

The member for Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel also has a private member's bill in Parliament on this issue. I would encourage the members of the House to vote for Bill C-37 and for the private member's bill to ensure that both bills are considered and that the details of how we deal with the registry, how we instruct the CRTC to consult on this, and I hope they will do it forthwith, will ensure we get a call registry up and running as quickly, as efficiently and as cheaply as possible. One registry for all Canadians will make sense.

The member for Saskatoon—Humboldt talked about exemptions. My bill exempted charities, and I believe they should be given that exemption. It should also make an exemption for businesses that are calling current customers. Let us face it, that makes sense.

I was telemarketed by the Globe and Mail , which I am a subscriber to on Fridays and Saturdays in my constituency. It called me with a great offer for the Sunday New York Times , a legitimate, perfectly positioned telemarketing call. It was on the money. I was happy to hear from it and to get that service. To have continued to call me when I did not want its services, would have been a bad business practice. The businesses in the first case should be exempt, but in the second case they had better be sure to take off customers who do not want to hear from them.

There has been a lot of discussion about the need for this bill. I encourage all members to participate in it. Again, we need to recognize that there is some concern in the industry from those who are operating call centres in all our constituencies. If we can single out the calls that are on the money and that are directed at the right people, it is more efficient and more effective, rather than all the noise coming at people right now.

It is the same thing with direct marketing and the flyers that come in our mail. We will see the ones we want to see if we clean up the industry. I had a private member's bill that good pieces of consumer protection legislation, which were adopted by the minister of industry of the day, in this case a do not call registry in the last run through of the Competition Act, to ensure that we cleaned up and had the highest standards for Canadians and that we ensured the industries that were marketing, marketed effectively. They are important.

We have an example, as the Bloc Québécois member mentioned. He talked about how important it was to look to our neighbours to the south. They have had this registry for a number of years. They still have a vibrant telemarketing industry. They still provide an opportunity for people to market through the use of the telephone. More important, there is an opportunity for consumers to take their names off these lists and to be protected so they can have quiet time and not be harassed by nuisance calls.

When the CRTC does this consultation, I want to be sure that it includes, contrary to what its most recent ruling was, the kind of calls that dump a message into our voice mails when we are not there. This type of call is causing great concern, particularly among a number of constituents who do not understand how they necessarily work, especially when a person receives a call from a moving company. It is a bit disconcerting when a person has not heard the phone ring and all of a sudden the company is trying to move that individual out of his or her place of residence. We have had concerns from constituents who are not quite sure what this is.

For anyone who is exposed to the possibility of dealing with the experiences of loved ones in some early stages of dementia, it can be extremely disconcerting. We need to protect consumers.

Some of the calls that are more harassing in nature are also a real concern to me. Again, guidelines by the industry are important. However, not everyone in the industry follows the guidelines.

Under this system, everyone will have to follow the guidelines or there will be punishments. In the minister's bill there is an infraction per call per day. In my bill there were very strict penalties: $25,000 on a summary conviction, a maximum or an imprisonment of six months or on an indictment, a fine of not more than $1 million or imprisonment to a term not exceeding five years.

It is important to ensure that we clean up the industry. We must have everyone follow the same rules. We have to ensure that people are not harassed into giving money or buying products for which they are not interested. However, we know they become quite intimidated by the callers. As I said, yesterday seven out of ten calls were an annoying waste of my time and that of the individuals.

There is also the ability for people to fax when we are least expect it. That costs money. It costs money for the cartridges and paper for the fax machine. Those companies too must follow these guidelines. I send back the faxes, just as all the members of this House have, and ask to have my name removed from the list. However, I still manage to get them.

Before the legislation goes through this House and the Senate, I want CRTC to begin consultations. Canadians are ready for the bill. We have a need for the legislation. We need protection of consumers. We need to ensure that telemarketing and other forms of marketing are as effective as they can be.

Why not set the highest standard possible? Why not have one system for the whole country? Why not make it easy for people to follow through on this?

I have received a fair bit of correspondence on this. SaskTel has a system where a person can get a tracing of the numbers that have called. That will be an important piece of this, to ensure that when we take our names off a list, we will have those convictions. If we are to have those high standards, we need the ability to track from where the phone calls come.

Ironically, I called a telemarketer who had called the number I checked yesterday. Unfortunately, I had to call another set of numbers to remove those calls. That is more time and money. They were long distance calls for me.

Finally, ironically, like most people in this House, I am never home. I rarely receive telemarketing calls. Lately, however, I have been inundated. I would ask those telemarketers to take my name and phone number off their list. I am happy to buy their products, but only if I they do not call me.

This has been interesting. As a consumer, I am interested to hear what my constituents are subjected to on a regular basis. I get a lot of hang ups because I am not there.

Also, as a member opposite mentioned, we are put into a locked in system that ties up the phone line. This has implications for people who have emergency situations. It has implications for those of us who have people trying to reach us. We need to clean up this industry with one easy registration system for constituents across the country.

I commend the Minister of Industry for getting this legislation to the House. It is important consumer protection. I hope the bill will proceed to committee as quickly as possible and that it will look to other examples of private members' bills that address the issue as well.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today on behalf of the constituents of Fleetwood--Port Kells to participate in the second reading debate on Bill C-37, an act to amend the Telecommunications Act.

The bill would enable the CRTC, the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, to establish and enforce a national do not call registry similar to ones already existing in the United States and Great Britain. Bill C-37 would also give the CRTC the power to levy substantial penalties against telemarketers and to contract with a private sector third party to operate the service.

I want to support the concept, but the bill does not get it right. The bill, consisting of a measly five pages, is extremely light on details. It tells us nothing about possible exceptions to the list, how the list would be maintained, how telemarketers would check the list, how often they must check the list, who would have access to the list or any reporting on how the list would be run. All these crucial details are left out of the regulations.

The telemarketing industry employs more than 270,000 Canadians and $16 billion worth of goods and services are sold over the telephone in Canada annually.

The industry is important to the livelihood of many of my constituents. Last year, U.S. financial giant JPMorgan Chase & Co. became the latest company to set up a call centre in Surrey when it opened a customer service centre employing over 800 in Surrey City Centre. Call centres have added substantially to Lower Mainland employment levels in the last few years.

In addition to JPMorgan, RMH Teleservices Inc. now employs 1,800 workers in North Surrey, with plans to add staff this year. In August 2003 eBay announced plans for an expansion of its Burnaby call centre from 200 to 1,000 jobs within two years.

There are currently an estimated 14,000 call centre jobs in total in greater Vancouver. The centres hire numerous entry level workers. In addition to the mostly front-line clerical staff who earn from $9 to $13 per hour, they also hire supervisory, management, sales and information systems staff.

It is unclear what impact a national do not call registry would have on the Canadian telemarketing industry. The impact will depend in part on any exemptions that may be given.

In the U.S., industry officials expect more than one-third of workers will lose their jobs within the next two years under that country's do not call rules.

Already Canadian regulations require individual telemarketers to keep a do not call list and respect requests for three years. However, most people have not been aware of this fact and they just hang up when they hear a telemarketer on the line. If they remain on the line, the telemarketer will ask whether the consumer wants to be excluded from all lists maintained by the telemarketing agency, not just from a list used for a particular client. This was started last fall.

The Canadian Marketing Association, which 800 corporate members include Canada's major financial institutions, insurance companies, and charitable organizations and which has been a vocal supporter of a national do not call list, has operated its own mandatory do not call service for its membership since 1988. The list also restricts the number of marketing offers received by mail and fax and now includes more than 450,000 phone numbers. The list has little legal bite, even less publicity, and is currently only adhered to by 80% of telemarketers who are association members.

The American do not call list came into force on October 1, 2003. Millions of Americans have signed up since then and the registry now includes more than 62 million registered telephone numbers. Any telemarketing company that calls one of these numbers can be fined as much as $11,000 per call.

However, the American legislation exempts some of the biggest users of telemarketing, for example, long distance phone companies, airlines, banks and credit unions, insurance companies, charities, pollsters, political organizations. Also, the do not call list can be ignored if the company already has an existing business relationship with its client. With all those exemptions, I am not quite sure whom Americans will be avoiding by signing up for the registry.

The CMA, along with the Canadian Bankers Association, argues that the current regulatory regime put in place by the CRTC is costly, ineffective and too broad. They want the regime scrapped and replaced with a U.S.-style do not call service. Besides requiring do not call lists, the CRTC also now requires callers to first identify themselves and the entity they represent and to offer a toll-free information line to be staffed during business hours, all before the sales pitch begins.

The CMA and the Canadian Bankers Association feel these regulations should not apply to a company's existing customers. CMA president John Gustavson suggests that these regulations would be bad for industry and would help make customer frustration fester.

Bill C-37 would do little more than allow the CRTC to establish databases, make orders regarding databases, delegate those powers and enforce those powers with financial penalties. The legal text on the penalties is far more extensive than the text on the databases that may be created.

The details on the operation of the do not call list are left entirely to the discretion of the CRTC. I consider this an affront to Parliament. As members of this chamber, we should be debating more than the mere idea of a bill. We should be considering the details of the proposed legislation as well.

We may agree with the idea of a do not call registry, but before we can support this bill we also need to know, for example, how or if the law would apply to charities and pollsters, how or if the law would apply to candidates who attempt to contact voters during an election campaign, whether the law would apply only to live sales pitches or to recorded messages and faxes, and what charges are to be paid by telemarketers to access the database.

The whole question of money is of particular concern. The government claims the registry would be self-financing, but it provides no further details. We must be mindful that the do not call registry does not become another gun registry in terms of both cost and management. My constituents are fed up with telemarketers calling them but do not want another $2 billion fiasco either.

As a consumer, I do not like receiving these calls from telemarketers. A do not call registry offers consumers a tool with which they can protect their homes against intrusions which are particularly invasive. Simply put, it gives consumers an option.

As parliamentarians, we must safeguard personal privacy and reduce the danger of telemarketing abuse. However, this must be done with clear legislation that spells out exactly how a do not call service would work, including any exemptions and how much it would cost taxpayers.

Bill C-37 is short on details. Almost everything is being left to the regulations. It would be irresponsible for me as a member of Parliament to allow this bill to pass in its current form. I will therefore be opposing this bill unless it is significantly amended to provide the full details of the proposed list.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today in support of Bill C-37, an act to amend the Telecommunications Act.

Consumers will no doubt welcome a bill designed to give them an easy, effective way to curtail intrusive telemarketing. Many may turn to the do not call list as a means to preserve their privacy.

But what about the impact of this bill on the telemarketing industry? What about its impact on the call centres that provide jobs for Canadians? If this bill is such good news for consumers, does it spell bad news for the industry?

Canada has become one of the key locations for call centres. Canada's established reputation in the call centre industry is due to its highly skilled, multilingual personnel. Other advantages include excellent telecommunications infrastructure, competitive labour costs and overall lower business costs.

Many companies have located their call centres in Canada to take advantage of these opportunities. According to a 2004 customer contact centre study, there are more than 6,000 call centres in Canada employing 360,000 call centre workers. Between 2002 and 2003, an estimated 128 customer contact centre deals or expansions were made in Canada, creating 40,000 new jobs.

Are these jobs at risk if the CRTC implements a national do not call list? To find an answer to that question, I think it is important that the House understand the changing nature of the call centre industry. I would like to review the difference between outbound and inbound telemarketing.

Some call centres make so-called cold calls to potential customers, customers with whom no previous relationship exists. As I am sure my colleagues who have ever received a call from such a telemarketer will appreciate, these salespeople go through many no responses before they get a yes. That is the nature of cold call marketing. They must make many calls where the answer is negative before they find someone on the other end of the line to answer that they are interested in the product or service being offered.

The chances of getting a yes improve significantly if these outbound sales people are working on a list that does not include the people who explicitly state that they do not want to be called. This is an effective way to reduce the number of unsuccessful calls and thereby increase the efficiency and productivity of the people in the outbound sector of the telemarketing industry.

In fact, the Canadian Marketing Association itself sees the creation of a national do not call list as a preferable form of regulation to the alternatives.

For example, under the current regulation, individual telemarketing companies must maintain their own do not call lists. This current system makes no one happy. Telemarketers are not happy because maintaining such a list is an administrative expense. Consumers are not happy because even if they register on one company's list, they are still going to be pestered by scores of other telemarketing companies.

The creation of a national do not call list will present a more cost effective and efficient way of regulating the industry. Consumers will opt into it. Telemarketers will pay to subscribe to it, thus supporting its maintenance.

There are also significant changes taking place in the call centre industry, which make the do not call list approach well timed. A transition to inbound calling is underway. Call centres for this new kind of telemarketing are called customer relationship management contract centres. These call centres make up the vast majority of the industry today. This fast growing sector consists of customer order and catalogue sales, assistance for online sales and service centres for handling inbound calls.

The bill before us would have no impact on inbound calls.

Perhaps it is useful to consider what has happened to the industry in the United States, where a national do not call registry has been in effect for more than a year.

In the United States, the percentage of outbound calls from call centres as a total of their business has been decreasing for several years, since 1998, in fact, five years before the passage of do not call legislation. The percentage of inbound calls has been increasing.

A similar trend has occurred in Canada, with 90% of Canadian contact centres having an inbound focus while only 10% are focused on outbound calls. The nature of the call centres in Canada has already changed.

I believe we will see this trend continue once the CRTC puts in place a national do not call list. The call centres will be more focused on giving the people at the other end of the telephone line better service for something they already have rather than making cold calls to try to persuade them to buy something new. I believe this is a much more stable business case on which to create jobs.

We want a regulatory environment where consumers have more control over who contacts them. We want a regulatory environment where a telemarketer that implements a well developed business plan will be able to succeed. That is the balance that is struck in the bill.

I encourage the House to support this legislation.

[Gurmant Grewal, Conservative, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise today on behalf of the constituents of Newton--North Delta to participate in the debate on Bill C-37, an act to amend the Telecommunications Act.

This bill would enable the CRTC to establish and enforce a do not call registry. Specifically Bill C-37 would amend the section of the Telecommunications Act that deals with telemarketers by adding the power to establish databases and to make any order with respect to these databases. This power may be delegated to any person, including a body created by the CRTC. The person or body exercising the delegated powers may charge fees which are deemed by the bill to not be public money. The bill also sets out financial penalties of up to $1,500 per offending call by an individual and up to $15,000 for a corporation.

This bill was first introduced in the last Parliament, but it died on the order paper.

All of us have received unwanted calls from people attempting to sell a good or a service. The telemarketer could be pitching the local newspaper, a credit card company, a cleaning service, a charity, or even a politician wanting one's vote. Sometimes we may welcome the call. It could provide useful information on a product or service we are interested in, but other times it is nothing but an annoyance.

Many members may have experienced receiving calls at very odd hours. Sometimes we receive calls when we do not want them. I have received calls at four o'clock in the morning, and when I have answered the phone I have heard a fax tone. The next time I have turned on the fax machine I have found that it was a telemarketer trying to promote some sort of service.

In my constituency office I often receive faxes promoting products or services, but members' offices are not even remotely connected with those products or services. Sometimes it is annoying and a waste of time. On the other hand sometimes it is useful information that people want.

My first job when I came to Canada was with a telemarketing company. I worked for a couple of weeks for that telemarketing company. I found out that the company was calling seniors in the U.S. to sell lottery tickets. It was a scam. The company was skimming them of money. Seniors can become addicted to buying things like lottery tickets. They probably lose more money than they would gain. I thought it was a very unethical practice and I immediately left that job because I could not do that.

A survey conducted by Decima Research, undoubtedly by telephone, found a large majority of Canadians, 75%, wants the federal government to institute a do not call list to protect them against unsolicited telephone calls from marketers. I agree with the survey. People do not want unwanted calls. I agree with the principle of the bill, but as members can imagine, like many other bills this is a poorly drafted bill with no substance, just an intent. It is very poorly managed, contains lots of hot air and things are not practical.

That survey also found that Canadians do not want to pay anything to be included on such a list. Sixty per cent of respondents said they would not want to pay for this service.

To much fanfare in 2003 the United States responded to the annoyance of unwanted telemarketing calls by establishing a national do not call list. Our government is now attempting to follow the American example, of course.

There already are do not call lists in Canada. The Canadian Marketing Association has been registering consumers on its do not call list since 1988. In addition the CRTC already requires that each telemarketing company maintain its own do not call list. Consumers can ask to be placed on that list. The only hitch is they first have to be called by the company. These lists must be maintained for three years.

The first thing we notice when reading Bill C-37 is that there is very little to the bill. Most of the details have been left to the regulations. As a result, we do not know if there will be any exclusions to the list, how much it will cost, who will operate the list and so on. These are very important details that deserve our consideration.

How can we do our job as parliamentarians if proposed legislation comes to us with so little detail? The government is asking us to give it a tabula rasa. Unfortunately, this is not without precedent.

Legislation inevitably comes to this House without the accompanying regulations. Much of the law that affects Canadians is not found in the Statutes of Canada , but in the thousands of regulations made pursuant to powers granted by the acts of Parliament.

Each year the federal government introduces about 1,200 new regulations. Since 1975 the government has made over 28,000 regulations. That is more than 122,000 pages of regulations.

The government introduces bills that lack substance, which are vague in intent, often incomplete and written just in general terms. The regulations follow the acts that we pass and those regulations sometimes contradict the intent of the legislation. Sometimes the regulations are completely off track. We in Parliament have no control once the legislation passes, but the accompanying regulations come from any angle contradicting anything or whatever it may be.

This leaves the door wide open to put through regulations that define our laws without the proper checks and balances in place. By doing so the Liberal government has effectively gutted the parliamentary process of accountability and transparency in the formulation of laws. Parliament is no longer at the centre of the law making process.

Twenty per cent of the laws that we see in the country are passed in this House. The remaining 80% come through the back door by way of regulations, which are neither debated nor subject to public scrutiny. For practical purposes the Liberal government rules, not governs, Canada.

As members of Parliament we passionately debate proposed legislation in the House of Commons. After debate we vote either yea or nay depending on the merit of the proposed law. Regulations receive virtually no debate in the House. We do not see them attached to the legislation that comes to the House or in the other place. There is no public study or input. There is even no media scrutiny. This is an affront to democracy.

The Standing Joint Committee on the Scrutiny of Regulations does only a limited scrutiny as per the limited criteria. Members of Parliament and senators on the committee, legal counsel and staff work very hard scouring through thousands of pages of dry, technical, legal subject matter. In this thankless job they are unable to review the legislation in many general terms because their mandate is restricted and limited.

As parliamentarians most of us want to put an end to the nuisance of telemarketing calls, but the bill is poorly drafted and does not deal with the substantial issues spilling over from it.

There are many problems in this country which probably should get higher priority. People can have alternatives. The government's priorities are wrong. Its modus operandi is wrong. Therefore, I cannot support this proposed legislation. I need more information in all honesty. For one thing I need to know how much this scheme is going to cost and there are many other pressing issues.

In conclusion, I agree with the principle, but to make it work, we need more information. I will not be in a position to support this legislation until it is amended.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is: the hon. member for Montmagny--L'Islet--Kamouraska--Rivière-du-Loup--Noranda Inc.

[Marc Godbout, Liberal, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today in support of Bill C-37, an act to amend the Telecommunications Act.

First, I would like to take a few seconds to thank the member for Burlington for her excellent work in the past and for taking up this issue on limiting telemarketing calls.

In 1994, the CRTC introduced regulations restricting unsolicited telemarketing. However, under these regulations, people who do not want to be disturbed by calls from companies that want to sell them something may have to register on hundreds of lists maintained by individual businesses.

This is surely not a workable system. The bill before us creates a better regulatory environment by providing the CRTC with the tools to create one national do not call list. In its telecom decision CRTC 2004-35, the CRTC recommended that it be provided with additional powers to establish a national do not call regime. In the interim it established new rules to govern telemarketing, rules that reinforce the existing regime.

The telemarketing industry itself took exception to the new rules to reinforce the existing regulatory system. The Canadian Marketing Association, the Canadian Bankers Association and three telemarketers asked the government to suspend those interim rules.

I point out that the Canadian Marketing Association has operated a do not call service since 1989. Since 1993 participation has been compulsory for the CMA's 800 corporate members. Even though this voluntary registry tries to address the problem, Canadians continue to be dissatisfied with their ability to control unwanted telemarketing.

The Canadian Marketing Association itself requested that the government introduce legislation to provide a national do not call list. Some players in the telemarketing industry are asking for smarter regulation. The government has made smart regulation a priority, and this bill introduces smart regulation to the call centres of Canada.

Other countries have introduced new regulations to protect consumers from unwanted telemarketing calls. In 2003 the U.S. Federal Trade Commission launched a national do not call registry. Some 62 million Americans subscribed to the registry in the first year alone.

Last January an online survey found that the U.S. do not call registry had been remarkably successful. More than half of all adults said they had signed up and most of those people said they had either received no telemarketing calls since then or far less than before. This survey, conducted by Harris Interactive, estimates that on average those who subscribe to the registry have seen unsolicited calls drop from 30 calls per month to 6.

The operation of the U.S. registry is straightforward. Subscribers register their home telephone numbers, not their names, online or via a toll free telephone number. U.S. sellers and telemarketers are charged fees to access the registry. They have to check it every 90 days and to scrub names on it from their call lists.

For some types of calls, telemarketing firms are not required to respect the registry: calls to current clients, calls for the purpose of administering a survey or poll, and those made on behalf of charitable organizations. Telemarketing companies working on behalf of charitable organizations must, however, keep their own do not call lists.

The costs of the American registry are relatively low. A T & T administered the list in the first year of operation, and the cost was $3.5 million. Costs are recovered from telemarketers and other vendors from registry access charges. In the United States, consumers do not have to pay to be added to the list.

What is the situation elsewhere? In 1999, the United Kingdom passed legislative provisions creating a telephone preference service to protect people for unwanted telephone calls or faxes from telemarketers. They were amended in 2003 to include all telecommunications.

The restrictions the UK has imposed on the telemarketing industry apply to a broad range of activities, including the marketing of goods and services, but also the promotion of the organizational goals and ideals, including those of charitable organizations and political parties seeking donations or support.

The costs of the service are recovered from the direct marketing industry. Again, the consumer pays nothing.

In the end, the implementation of systems in other countries to protect consumers from telemarketing calls has proven a cost-effective means of protecting them from unsolicited telemarketing. The experience elsewhere provides us with examples for a Canadian system. The bill before us provides the CRTC with the tools it needs to establish a do not call list tailored to Canadian requirements. The CRTC will designate an independent administrator for the list.

It will also set up a system of fines. It will consult the industry and consumers in designating organizations to be exempted from the regulations.

The evidence is clear. Almost all parties and the CRTC itself recognize that current rules do not serve the interests of Canadians concerned with nuisance telemarketing. The industry finds that the CRTC's interim rules are unduly onerous and from coast to coast Canadians will applaud our efforts to provide them with relief from nuisance telephone calls.

I urge hon. members to support the bill and to refer it to committee. It is good news for our privacy and good news for Canadians.

[James Moore, Conservative, Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise in the debate of Bill C-37, an act to amend the Telecommunications Act.

I noticed from reading the bill that it does not have a short title. If it did have one the bill would be known as the control telemarketers act.

If we were to ask the average Canadian to make a list of life's greatest irritations, telemarketers would surely be near the top of that list. In fact, so hated are telemarketers that when America's Federal Trade Commission set up a national do not call registry in the United States, on its opening day the registration button on the website received 1,000 per second. Clearly there is broad public support for a do not call registry.

At the same time, one of the least popular government agencies in this country is the CRTC, seen by a growing number of Canadians as blind to the increasingly rapid changes in the telecommunications industry, archaic in its approach to regulation and unresponsive to the needs of Canadian citizens. This is the agency that the government would like to put in charge of our do not call list.

To many Canadians this would be like putting the folks who ran Enron in charge of our health care system. All Canadians want health care but they do not have a lot of confidence in Enron style management.

To make matters worse, the CRTC's own officials have said that the agency is not equipped to administer such a list and does not have the power to enforce it properly. Moreover, even if the CRTC were the appropriate agency to create a do not call list and had the muscle to ensure that its rules were respected, it is having trouble dealing with its current responsibilities.

The CRTC is currently under considerable fire for its revocation of CHOI-FM's licence in Quebec, its handling of Al Jazeera and Fox News and its total bungling of satellite television policy. Ask most Canadians what they think of the CRTC's ability to conduct meaningful consultations and the results are less than encouraging. Some will tell us that the CRTC's decisions are virtually meaningless and have no real effect. Only the CRTC would give an ethnic channel at category 2 TV licence and require it to provide Canadian content while imposing the obligation to convince a cable or satellite company to carry it.

We have seen ethnic TV being bounced back and forth between the CRTC and various committees of this House with no meaningful resolution to the debate. Few would say that the CRTC has not conducted consultations but the link between those consultations and concrete policies that benefit Canadians is often tenuous at best.

Therefore I draw no comfort from the Minister of Industry's December 13 press release in which he announced his intent to table this legislation.

In the release he stated:

If the bill becomes law, the CRTC will then consult Canadians on the implementation of a national Do Not Call List. The Commission plans to start such a consultative process shortly after the bill is adopted by Parliament. Such consultations could include the question of whether any organizations should be exempt from a Do Not Call List.

However anyone who carefully reads Bill C-37 will be surprised to find that it actually contains no requirements whatsoever for the CRTC to consult with anyone. The operative clause would add a new section 41.2 of the Telecommunications Act, and essentially it reads:

The Commission may, for the purposes of [setting up a do not call list],

(a) administer databases or information, administrative or operational systems; and

(b) determine any matter, and make any order, with respect to the databases or the information, administrative or operational systems.

The more one reads Bill C-37, the more one becomes aware of its purpose: to allow the Liberal government to take credit for dealing with telemarketers without actually having done anything.

In fact, Bill C-37 is a smokescreen. It suggests that an agency with a poor track record of public consultation may consult with the public. It could require an overworked agency to take on new responsibilities without any additional resources. It ignores the CRTC's own claims that the agency is not equipped to administer such a list and does not have the power to enforce it properly.

The English version of Bill C-37 is just two and a half pages long and uses the word “may” 20 times. The CRTC may set up a list, it may delegate powers, it may impose penalties. It does not have to do anything, and moreover, it has told the government that it does not have the resources to administer this do not call registry.

If the government is really serious about setting up a do not call registry, Parliament must clearly define the parameters and provide reasonable exemptions provided for charities, political parties, polling firms and companies that wish to contact their current customers. We must also ensure that we provide the proper resources to the agency tasked with implementing and enforcing this idea.

In this regard it is helpful to look south to the United States at its legislative experience in this area. In 1994 the U.S. Congress passed the telemarketing consumer fraud and abuse act, 15 U.S.C., s.s. 1601-1608.

Section 3 of the act reads:

The [Federal Trade] Commission shall prescribe rules prohibiting deceptive telemarketing acts or practices and other abusive telemarketing acts or practices.

Section 10 reads:

Upon the expiration of 5 years following the date of the first promulgation of rules under section 3, the Commission shall review the implementation of this Act and its effect on deceptive telemarketing acts or practices and report the results of the review to Congress.

The U.S. legislation imposes obligations on the Federal Trade Commission and, more important, requires it to report back to congress, to the legislature.

The FTC reported back, and on January 28, 2003, representative Billy Tauzin of Louisana's third congressional district, introduced house resolution 395, an act to authorize the Federal Trade Commission to collect fees for the implementation and enforcement of a do not call registry.

Section 4 of the act requires the FTC to transmit detailed annual reports to various congressional committees. The report must include: an analysis of the effectiveness of the do not call registry as a national registry; the number of consumers who have placed their telephone numbers into the registry; the number of persons paying fees for access to the registry and the amount of such fees; an analysis of the progress of coordinating the operation and enforcement of the do not call registry; and, a review of the enforcement proceedings.

The very next day, January 29, 2003, the house of representatives committee on energy and commerce asked a very basic question: How much will all of this cost? It was a very basic question and one that the Liberal government has failed to ask with regard to the legislation.

On February 4, 2003, the congressional budget office estimated that fines would amount to roughly $18 million annually and that the net cost to the U.S. government would be approximately $13 million a year. President Bush signed HR 395 on March 11, 2003.

It is important to understand that the U.S. do not call registry does not affect charities, political organizations, telephone surveys and a number of very important industries. I do not think the government has given nearly enough thought to this legislation or has clearly understood or clearly consulted, and, most important for taxpayers, I think it is quite clear that the government does not understand the importance of having a proper cost benefit analysis of the legislation.

The U.S. do not call registry will offer genuine relief to Americans. The Federal Trade Commission has teeth to enforce it. The commission has punished companies such as California Pacific Mortgage and AT&T, and top offenders such as Faxes.com are facing up to $5.4 million in fines.

Large telemarketing companies, such as Mainstream Marketing Services, are challenging the constitutionality of the U.S. do not call registry stating that it violates the first amendment guarantees of free speech. Nonetheless, the U.S. Direct Marketing Association estimates that about 90% of the telemarketing activity has been stopped to the more than 50 million numbers on its registry.

I am very much in favour of a do not call registry. However what the Liberals are proposing would potentially prevent us from surveying our very own constituents. We only need to look at the same sex marriage debate to realize how important it is for members of Parliament to be in touch with their constituents and to reflect their values in the House.

I want the government to give us a truly effective do not call registry that can be fully enforced. I want a broad consultation process so that we can be sure that we get it right, and that we get it right the first time. The Federal Trade Commission created its do not call registry after a comprehensive three year review, numerous workshops, meetings and over 64,000 public submissions.

I am tired of being told by the CRTC that it is beyond our reach. If the government wants to create a do not call registry, I want significant parliamentary oversight over the process and the ability to ensure that the appropriate resources exist to effectively implement the registry.

Just like so many things with the Liberal government, it comes up with an idea, it offers a solution but it does not offer the real means in order to get it done. The Liberals boast about our armed forces. They stand in line with our armed forces and take photo ops with them but for them to do the business and the job that they need to do in order for the Liberals to be able to have those photo ops, they persistently fail to provide those resources.

From the health care system to bragging about its importance to Canadians and not giving it the funding, to bragging about our armed forces and taking the photo ops but not providing the funding, in area after area the Liberal government talks one way, walks another and fails to provide the resources in order to get the job done right.

Bill C-37 is a shadow of what is needed. I am voting to send it back to the drafters so that the government can bring it back in a way that respects the will of Parliament. The need for consultation, the requirement for enforcement resources and the teeth to ensure that a do not call registry would provide us with the same comfort that our American neighbours are getting are crucial for the legislation to have meaning and to stop telemarketers from invading our homes and causing us the kind of annoyances and headaches that all of us wish would just go away.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

On division.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

Accordingly, the bill is referred to the Standing Committee on Industry, Natural Resources, Science and Technology.

(Motion agreed to and bill referred to a committee)

Department of International Trade Act

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Minister of International Trade]

moved that Bill C-31, an act to establish the Department of International Trade and to make related amendments to certain acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, today I have the great pleasure of rising to speak on the legislation that would formalize the establishment of the Department of International Trade. In this work, I am very pleased to have the assistance of the parliamentary secretary for new and emerging markets.

On December 12, 2003 the governor in council passed an order separating the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade into two separate departments.

The legislation before us today would codify the changes made by that order. It would mark a milestone in the creation of the departments which have been functioning independently since the Prime Minister's announcement more than a year ago.

The purpose of the new department is simple: international trade and wealth creation for Canadians.

International policy is an extremely complex and multi-faceted area, bringing together aspects as varied as human rights, development, diplomacy, defence, international security and trade.

In this new century, Canada's active involvement in the global arena must rest on integrated strategies that take into account the relationship between these various aspects. In our department, however, our priority is obviously international trade.

Bill C-31 would establish a Department of International Trade headed by a minister responsible for the overall direction of the department, both in Canada and abroad. The powers, duties and functions of the minister are set forth in clauses 6 and 7 of the bill stating in particular that:

6.(2)--The minister shall--

b) conduct and manage international negotiations;

(c) conduct and coordinate Canada’s relations regarding international trade and commerce and international investment;--

(e) foster the development of international law and its application as it relates to Canada’s international trade and commerce and international investment--

1. The Minister may, with the approval of the Governor in Council, enter into agreements with the government of any province or any of its agencies respecting the carrying out of programs--

Behind these words lie the realities of our new global economy. It is a world in flux, with business internationalizing at a dizzying pace and carrying us along with it. Trade investment and all other elements of modern commerce fix us firmly in that economy, from science and technology partnerships to licensing arrangements, from geographically dispersed design and innovation and thousands of small and medium-sized firms through to global distribution of world renowned goods and services. We prosper as a nation because we do well in the global economy. It is that prosperity that gives us the choices that make us who we are in social programming, in culture, in sustainable economic development, and all the myriad contributors to that very high quality of life that makes Canada the envy of people around the world.

Continuing to succeed in international commerce is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of vital interest to all Canadians, and that is why the bill is before the House, to create a Department of International Trade to champion our international competitiveness through negotiations, through commercial relations and the expansion of trade, commerce and investment, through the security of a fair and transparent legal regime, and through programs delivered with our partners in the federal government, the provinces and territories, the Canadian business community and other stakeholders.

I remind hon. members that exports lie behind one in four Canadian jobs, that exports of goods and services are 38% of our GDP, or nearly a trillion dollars per year, and that two-way trade with the U.S. is running at over $1.2 million a minute. The stock of foreign investment in Canada now tops $357.5 billion and, more important perhaps, direct investment by Canadians abroad is now nearly $400 billion.

There is not one business in Canada which does not depend directly or indirectly on export sales or imported input, foreign technology, the skills of our immigrants or, in a nutshell, one aspect or the other of international trade. There is not one Canadian who does not contribute in some way to the global economy. Even in our trade with the United States, we supply them and, in turn, they supply the world.

That is how Canadian avionics ends up onboard the European Airbus. The same is true of the operation of our supply lines here, in Canada. While a growing number of businesses are turning to the foreign market, others are selling their services on the domestic market without realizing that they are contributing to the international competitiveness of their clients.

Canadian prosperity is anchored in our global economy, and that is why the government has made a priority of sustaining our international competitiveness. The last Speech from the Throne challenged Canada to elevate its economic performance to the next level through a commitment to excellence, a vision directed outward to the challenges and opportunities the world presents.

International trade and investment is one of those five key elements that were outlined. Even if International Trade Canada will not exist in law until the bill is passed, I can assure the House that we exist in fact and we are hard at work helping Canadians meet the challenges of our modern economy. We have tools for all critical business needs, beginning with the front line cultivation of leads and contacts and business intelligence for our clientele delivered to 1,200 registered Canadian business clients through the department's virtual trade commission.

The tools are only as useful as the purpose they serve. Ours serve in particular to secure and improve access to the North American market and to ensure that Canadian businesses have access to opportunities increasingly found in new economic powers such as China, India and Brazil.

We want to position Canada advantageously in global value chains through innovative approaches and through closer economic cooperation with established economic powers like the EU and Japan.

This work is not just carried out abroad. It is hard to determine the true boundaries of our economy. That is why, in keeping with the approach set out in the Speech from the Throne, we are working to ensure that no internal factor contributing to innovation and competitiveness is neglected. If we do not succeed nationally, we cannot succeed internationally.

I would like to remind the House of some of the challenges we face and some of the things we have done.

First, thanks to our continuing close partnership with Foreign Affairs Canada, and I appreciate the cooperation and goodwill of my colleague, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, we have managed an important and complex transition while improving our level of service to business. The department now services our clientele from 12 regional offices across Canada and through our trade offices in over 140 cities worldwide.

We are deepening our partnerships with business, provinces, territories, municipalities, and other stakeholders. I shall personally be meeting with my provincial and territorial colleagues in Winnipeg in 10 days to exchange advice and perspectives on international commercial challenges and opportunities. This is part of our ongoing dialogue with all Canadian stakeholders.

I would add that the hon. members have been and—I hope—will continue to be independent sources of advice in the pursuit Canada's strategic objectives in international trade.

I am grateful that the subcommittee, chaired by the hon. member for Scarborough Centre, will be undertaking nationwide hearings on these issues.

Our key economic partnership is with the United States and our relationship with Mexico is rapidly gaining in size and maturity.

The Prime Minister and President Bush agreed last December that we had to break the vicious cycle of protectionism that has clouded the effectiveness of the NAFTA dispute settlement mechanisms in areas such as softwood lumber, but the political weight of protectionist interests will not just go away: we need to cultivate allies, to show how two closely knit economies jointly facing an increasingly competitive global environment cannot allow these aberrations to happen.

Accordingly, we have continued to increase our representation in the U.S. regions under the ERI, under which we have opened seven new consulates and upgraded two more to consulates general. This strategy allows us to extend our ability to advocate for Canadian interests, not just in the disputes I have mentioned but also on varied and important subjects such as energy or access for our agricultural commodities such as wheat, beef and swine.

This initiative will help us forge closer ties with opinion- and decision-makers across the U.S. and I plan to build on this solid base by personally leading advocacy days in key U.S. centres. I look forward in this endeavour to the active participation of parliamentarians from all parties.

Looking to the future, the Prime Minister and President announced a new partnership, a partnership for prosperity and security. The commercial component aims to expand our opportunities by making our businesses more competitive in the global marketplace. This builds on decisions by my NAFTA counterparts and me, dealing with the NAFTA work program itself.

Another accomplishment of the past year was the launch of the Canada-Mexico partnership. This provides opportunities for small and medium sized enterprises, enhances trade and investment flows, promotes links among cultural, research and academic groups, and increases our respective economies' global competitiveness, all within the North American context.

In planning for the future, we cannot lose sight of what is important today. We have defended Canada's interests in softwood lumber by taking action through NAFTA and the WTO and by working in close cooperation with the provinces and the industry. We have achieved some success. We will maintain our resolve while being flexible in our determination to find a lasting and fair solution to this problem.

We will use the tools at our disposal to defend the interests of our wheat farmers, among others, who are faced with American protectionism.

Canadians have important interests in many areas of the world, from Austria to Chile, from Russia to the Arabian gulf. I would like to speak, however, about the European Union and Japan, which are truly important economic partners for Canada on trade and investment and on science and technology grounds, to say nothing of how they, like the United States, are movers and shakers in the value networks that increasingly characterize world production.

We agreed on a framework for a Canada-EU trade and investment enhancement agreement last March to consolidate and extend the economic partnership in ways that complement the WTO's market access focus. We both now are negotiating mandates.

The U.K., Germany and France and other European states are among our most important partners and investment goals. This is a relationship clearly worth investing in. Equally important are the bilateral discussions launched with Japan to structure a new framework for enhanced economic relations.

I am also developing an aggressive new approach to positioning Canadian business in emerging markets such as China, India and Brazil, as well as other partners strategically positioned in relation to them, such as Korea. To shape this strategy and assess priorities we have conducted consultations, including recent round tables with business, academics and civil societies. This dialogue is ongoing.

We are already taking measures to expand our options. The Prime Minister announced the opening of exploratory talks on a possible free trade agreement with Korea. I have already sent a team to get the discussions underway.

Last year we resumed talks with China and India on negotiations for protecting investments. In November, I headed a trade mission to Brazil. I have just gone back to China, where I accompanied the Prime Minister and I foresee sending a trade mission to India in early spring. The hon. Gar Knutson, the Minister of State for International Trade for New and Emerging Markets, led a trade mission to Central America.

As well, the hon. parliamentary secretary for new and emerging markets undertook a recent trade mission to Syria, the U.A.E., Qatar, Yemen and Egypt.

There is much more I could mention, from the World Trade Organization's Doha development agenda, to other elements of our activist trade and investment policy agenda, to the very way my department is being organized to seek out and deliver new solutions in support of various client groups such as SMEs, various drivers of competitiveness like science and technology and investment, and various challenges to be overcome on the way to success in established and in emerging economic partners.

There will be other opportunities to discuss broad strategy or specific issues such as the annual trade update. Right now I look forward to working with all members of Parliament to promote Canada's prosperity through enhanced trade and investment, and I humbly seek members' support for this bill, Bill C-31, so that the important work we are doing together might continue.

[Gary Lunn, Conservative, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Speaker, I have listened to the minister's speech. As a former critic for international trade, I look back at the problems we faced four years ago and what I see is that we are facing the same problems today.

I had a look at Bill C-31. What this bill really seems to be about is splitting the department and spending a whole lot of money with a whole lot of process. After the government has been in power for 11 years, it is facing the same problems and the same battles today that it did 11 years ago. The productivity gap is widening. On this side of the House, obviously, we agree with more free trade and the global economy, and it is coming at us, yet the government seems to be failing us on so many fronts and not dealing with this issue.

That was a wonderful speech that the minister gave, but he did not really address the costs that are associated with splitting this department. How is this going to help address these problems? After 11 years the government has failed to address them, so how is splitting this department going to be any different? How is it going to help the Canadian taxpayer? How is it going to help businesses abroad succeed? Why are we still facing the same problems 11 years later under the same government? The same ministers who have been trying to address these problems for so long are still sitting on the front bench.

[Jim Peterson, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Madam Speaker, the member's questions are very legitimate.

Let me deal first with the cost issue. The cost of separating the one department into two is going to be cost neutral. That does not mean I will not be asking for more funds to promote international trade and investment. After all, we have a brand new mandate of new and emerging markets and a whole bunch of new responsibilities.

Let me add for the hon. member that I believe splitting the department and giving us a separate department for international trade shows the great importance that the Prime Minister attaches to trade and investment being critical to the prosperity of Canadians. It means that there will be a separate voice at the cabinet table arguing for these issues. There will be greater flexibility in being able to respond quickly to global changes. There will be new government investment in the international centres for Industry Canada. We have taken over those functions from Industry Canada. This gives us the ability to give one stop shopping through our department to the clientele in Canada.

I might add in closing that other countries have seen the importance of having separate departments for international trade and investment, such as the U.K. and Japan and the European Union. They have separate ministers. In the U.S., the U.S. trade representative reports directly to the White House.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Madam Speaker, the minister has painted a somewhat bleak picture of what would happen if the two departments, namely International Trade and Foreign Affairs, were not split.

Roughly a year ago, I was fortunate enough to travel to Mexico, mainly to Ciudad Juarez, where maquiladoras are located. Some 2 million people live in extreme poverty there. Of these maquiladoras , 50% are Canadian companies, which I will not be naming for now. People are paid $1 or $2 dollars a day for their work. They live in extreme poverty.

Some companies negotiate contracts for their workforce which are below the international standards. That is what we learned. Canada is well aware of that. It is an accomplice in that.

Moreover, Canada has not ratified the International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of their Families. Some Mexicans come up here to work. They have problems with Canadian companies. Canada has not ratified the American Convention on Human Rights.

And now, the minister shows up and talks about trading with the United States, Mexico and China, the latter, a country which does not respect human rights.

My question to the minister is the following: Trading is fine, but in your bill, is mention made of protecting human rights?