Debates of April 12th, 2005

RCMP and Law Enforcement in Canada

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, the short answer is, yes. Mandatory minimum sentencing puts the emphasis on deterrence. It actually raises the stakes for those who choose to flaunt the law, for those who choose to engage in the illicit proliferation of drugs.

Grow ops are a huge problem. A massive epidemic is the way it has been described by many in the law enforcement community.

It is causing a lot of spinoff crime. Because of the stakes, because of the money, because of the activity that encompasses drug use, drug proliferation, we are seeing more murders, more break and enters, more terrible addictions that lead to all sorts of other crime and all sorts of other moral decay.

We know that in British Columbia this is the biggest export from that province. This is a huge challenge with our relations with the United States of America, as well. This is another collateral damage as a result of letting this issue run rampant.

It is about resources. It is about having the ability to shut down those grow operations. Part of that is ensuring that there will be consequences, mandatory minimum sentences, deterrents, put in the mind of those who would break the law. As well, it indicates that the justice system is prepared to take these crimes seriously.

Sadly, the government appears to be moving in the polar opposite direction. Talking about decriminalizing marijuana and lessening the consequences sends the complete opposite message of what we should be trying to attain here. We should be telling those who grow marijuana, who produce drugs that there are consequences. Crystal meth and other drugs like OxyContin are rampant in Nova Scotia, and Cape Breton in particular. These are life altering, life destroying drugs. This is happening in this country.

The law enforcement community is that thin blue line which is there to protect us, to enforce the law. When the law enforcement officers have done their job and placed the criminals into the hands of the criminal justice system, the crown prosecutors, judges, lawyers, those around the justice system who support that program, there has to be consequences. There has to be a mandatory minimum sentence, because of the money involved.

It is becoming the cost of doing business to be arrested, to pay a fine or to be placed on probation. Those consequences are not real. People know that, particularly those in organized crime, particularly those who see the profit and are prepared to take the risk. There must be serious jail time. There must be serious consequences if we are to try to combat the scourge.

[Bill Casey, Conservative, North Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, I would like to ask the hon. member for Central Nova a question about the Northeast Nova drug section. The Northeast Nova drug section serves his area and my area. Also, the Premier of Nova Scotia lives in the same area that is served by this section.

There has been speculation that the RCMP will be cancelling the Northeast Nova drug section. The member for Central Nova has objected to this and has spoken out against it many times, as have I and many others. We totally oppose this because of the risk it would place on the communities in northern Nova Scotia.

I would like the member to give his perspective on this as a former crown prosecutor and someone who has been recently working very closely with the RCMP on several issues. I wonder if he could give us his point of view on the damage that could result from the cancellation of the Northeast Nova drug section.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, I, along with my colleague from a neighbouring riding in Nova Scotia, have queried the minister and have repeatedly made the point that this drug section does invaluable work. In fact, compared to other parts of the province, including metro Halifax, this has been per capita the most successful drug section in the province of Nova Scotia. Its ability to shut down grow ops, to make arrests and to break up drug rings and circles of trafficking has been remarkable. Members of the section are to be commended, as are all those in the law enforcement community, for the work they are doing in this regard.

To withdraw that service from northern Nova Scotia at this time is an absolute travesty. To withdraw those officers, to reconcentrate, to reallocate, to do what we have heard the minister and even the commissioner of the RCMP describe as simply reallocating resources, is again a withdrawal of services. It is taking law enforcement officers away from the source of the crime and leaving people vulnerable. Drug use and drug trafficking will grow in those areas, as opposed to having the officers front line, on the street and in close proximity.

I know many of the officers personally who are involved in the efforts to ensure that the streets of our communities are safe. They are actively engaged in doing that important work and the government is preventing them from doing so by withdrawing that support and closing that particular drug section and moving it to metro Halifax. That is not to say that Halifax does not have a problem as well, but we are taking officers away from the actual source and the actual problem with drug proliferation in northern Nova Scotia.

It should be stopped. If the decision has been made it should be reversed. What the government should be doing is putting more officers in this drug enforcement unit as opposed to closing it or withdrawing the support.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Chair, in my opinion, the subject of tonight's debate is extremely broad. I thought it would be more useful to select a single aspect and talk about it in detail.

So, I will talk about something that is extremely important to the RCMP, even if it is not currently in the news. I am talking about protecting women from the sexual advances and sometimes even abuse they may be subject to within the organization and how such cases must be handled.

My goal is not to cause undue problems for the government, but rather to contribute to improving human relations within the important organization that the RCMP is. My goal is to convince the government to act.

I want to talk about the case of Sergeant Blundell, with the RCMP in Calgary. He specialized in infiltrating criminal gangs and he apparently got numerous murder convictions because he gained the trust of the murderers. It also seems that, to gain this trust, he felt it was necessary to have a female officer come along and pretend to be his girlfriend. Drinking alcohol was always part of how he gained the trust of his targets and, sometimes, started before they arrived. Most of the time, the evening ended at a hotel where, coincidentally, there were never two rooms available and, once, not even two beds.

Four of these female officers complained that Sergeant Blundell made sexual advances over the course of the evening and specifically after the targets had left, when his words and actions became increasingly aggressive. Apparently Sergeant Blundell ripped the blouse of one of the complainants in an elevator in order to touch her breast. Another complainant was allegedly so inebriated that he managed to take full advantage of her.

The four female officers filed a complaint and sued the RCMP for damages they alleged suffering. In their court action, they complained of the many obstacles they met in pursuing their complaint and the little cooperation they had had from the authorities.

The woman the accused took advantage of complained in July 1999 and was told she would have to meet the investigators. The meeting did not take place until September 2 and, again, in a hotel room. Two months later, on November 23, she was asked to make her deposition again, this time before a video camera. Three months later, on February 22, she was asked for another statement. This time when she wanted to use an office, she was told to make her statement in the corridor of a hotel in front of the elevator doors. She was asked for another statement on May 4, 2000, and another on May 18.

Prior to the hearing of the adjudication committee, she was unable to meet with the lawyer who would be arguing her case. She asked to reread her statements before testifying. She was not permitted to do so. The committee concluded after a very thorough examination of the evidence that the policewoman had consented to the sexual relations. It criticized both those involved of unprofessional conduct, but decided that no infraction of the code of discipline was involved.

I acknowledge finding the decision convincing. However, after reading all the allegations in the female officer's case about the difficulties caused her before she submitted her claim to an adjudication committee, I must admit I have serious doubts, especially since the committee seemed quite unaware that the relationship was between superior and subordinate. In addition, it seems to me, as a former criminal lawyer, that it was material to present what is known as similar act evidence. The preliminaries in all three cases seemed so similar. This was, however, not done.

In the case of the two other policewomen, the matter will be on the basis of admission. The committee hearing it advises that discussions between lawyers continued for a long time before the prosecution and the defence agreed on a presentation of the facts.

In essence, Sergeant Blundell acknowledges having touched the private parts of one of the women and grasped the breast of another, when none of this behaviour was part of the infiltration scenarios.

After expressing shock at the behaviour of Sergeant Blundell, the committee imposed a warning: cancellation of one ADR day and a recommendation of counselling from a specialist. I believe an ADR is a paid day when the constable can attend to personal matters for certain reasons.

The committee took it for granted that the sexual touching by Constable Blundell—his rank at the time—was done without the consent of the female officers, even if the admissions made no reference to that point. It appears obvious under the circumstances.

It must, however, be realized that this absence of consent is of considerable importance, since deliberate sexual touching without the consent of the person touched constitutes a sexual offence under the Criminal Code. I believe that counsel for Sergeant Blundell was perfectly aware of that in the course of the long discussions that led up to the joint statement of facts. At any rate, I learned that all of these facts, including the allegations of the fourth policewoman which were not supported by sufficiently credible evidence to justify an adjudication committee, were submitted to the office of the Crown in Calgary, where it was concluded that there were no grounds for criminal proceedings.

The final outcome was, therefore, a warning and possibly the loss of a day's pay. I would point out that, in Quebec, when a police officer is alleged to have committed criminal conduct, this must be assessed by the Crown prosecutors of a district other then the one in which the officer works. The purpose of this is to avoid the possibility that those required to pass judgment on the officer may have developed a friendship with him through working relationships.

Before concluding, I will add that the four policewomen all complained about the many persistent pressures they and one of their spouses have been under not to follow through with their accusations. They have also suffered greatly from these incidents at their workplace. So, they pursued their court action and, in August, a press release came out, announcing, amid almost total indifference from the press because of the summer holidays, that there had been an out of court settlement to the mutual satisfaction of all parties. The release added in cryptic fashion that the allegations of the prosecution had not been proven in court. That goes without saying, since there was no trial.

One cannot say, however, that the RCMP management was insensitive. It had one of its senior officers, Chief Superintendent Ian Atkins, investigate the entire matter. Superintendent Atkins produced a voluminous 114-page report containing 11 recommendations. I requested this report. An almost completely expurgated copy of it was provided to me. In fact, the only remaining fragments deal with discussions about points of law concerning the interpretation of the act and regulations. I know that 11 recommendations were made but have the text of none.

I understand that there might be a wish to keep some police investigation techniques in murder cases secret, but it is obvious that when this document was expurgated, there was another philosophy at work. It is this philosophy that has to be changed, the idea that in law enforcement organizations, the weaknesses and sins of members have to be hidden, things worked out behind closed doors, the dirty linen washed in private, as they say. This is the same philosophy that seems to have existed in the Church at one time with regard to pedophilia. The modern and reassuring approach should be that when members of a respectable organization commit an error in judgment, and more so when they commit a crime, they should be treated the same way as other individuals guilty of the same improprieties. And this should be able to be done in all transparency.

After thoroughly examining this pathetic and, I hope, rare case, I cannot help but be very concerned about the situation for women in the RCMP. I believe that any reasonable person reading all the documents available on this matter would share this concern. Only the establishment of a clear and transparent policy could reassure us.

For the first time in its history, the RCMP is accountable to a woman, a lawyer. I am sure she would not want us to continue to worry and that she would want a policy to be established and disseminated in order to help potential sexual abuse victims within the RCMP. I am confident that I can expect that of her.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, like a number of the other speakers this evening, I too wish to express publicly on behalf of myself and my party our sincere regrets for the loss of the lives of Peter Schiemann, Leo Johnston, Anthony Gordon and Brock Myrol.

These murders were profoundly shocking to the country. We have not seen this type of overwhelming tragedy and loss in our police forces for well over 100 years. Arguably, any time in the past when we lost this many RCMP officers it was in a military action, not in a police action as was occurring in Mayerthorpe earlier this year.

As I was preparing for this evening I could not help but think of the commemorative service that we had in Windsor. In fact, Peter Schiemann's uncle is a Presbyterian minister in Windsor. He officiated at the commemorative services. He told us in the course of the service, as is so often with our police officers that they act way beyond their absolute responsibilities in doing extra work. In this case, Constable Schiemann was not even on duty. He had stopped by to spend some time with his colleagues. As a result he was trapped and ultimately murdered.

That type of dedication of our officers so often, generally, goes without recognition by our society. We all believe that we do whatever we can to support our police officers. I suppose our responsibility here as policy-makers is to continue that responsibility in that role as policy-makers.

In the last year or so I believe there have been a number of incidents in various ways that have drawn to our attention the dependency that we have on the RCMP and its extreme responsibilities. That was even more heightened after 9/11 and the added responsibilities it took on at that point to deal with the issue of terrorism, both domestically and in our relationships with other countries, particularly the United States.

There have been, quite frankly, a number of criticisms of both the government and the senior members of the RCMP, muted I think most of the time, but it raises questions as to whether it is not a time, and maybe these deaths in Alberta have re-emphasized this, that we may be at one of those periods of time when a broader oversight should be taken of the role that the RCMP plays in our country. Should it in fact be expanded? Should greater consideration be given to the role between the RCMP, the commissioner and the government?

It was interesting to listen to the Deputy Prime Minister earlier this evening discussing that, She was taking, as she has on a number of occasions, an absolutist position, that the present relationship between what used to be the solicitor general and is now the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness should be at quite some arm's length.

I know that this has been a friction point between the minister and the justice committee, and in particular over the closing of the detachments in Quebec. I must say that I could not help but feel on a number of occasions that the minister was misapprehending her responsibility.

It was interesting to listen to my colleague from the Bloc. He was the former minister in the province of Quebec responsible for police forces. He played a much more activist role, without interfering with the day to day operations and nobody is suggesting we do that, in the setting of policy and particularly in combating organized crime.

He and his government brought about some shifts and similar activities are being carried on in the province of Manitoba by the minister responsible for police in the fight that Manitoba is waging against organized crime. Innovative criteria and policy are being put in place, but a good deal of that is being driven by the political master, not left exclusively to the senior administration of the police forces in those provinces.

That comment is in no way a criticism of our police forces. The point being made is that there are times when it is appropriate that the policy-makers and legislators take positions and then see that they are implemented at the policy level.

At this point I am going to speak specifically about the decision that has been made, which occurred in Ontario first and is now in Quebec, to close detachments. That happened to a number of detachments in Ontario. It is clear from listening to the commissioner, when he appeared before the justice committee on a number of occasions, that these decisions were made based on a policy that, quite frankly, we have adopted from another country. I cannot remember right now, but a policy that in effect was saying we would concentrate our efforts in larger metropolitan areas and in effect leave the policing at the local level to local police forces.

The problem with this is that it reminded me of the decisions that were made by local police forces both in Canada and the United States in the mid and late fifties when we stopped community policing and moved police officers into police cars. It was sort of a high tech advance at the time. That policy proved to be a disaster in a number of major cities in the United States.

I cannot help but think that if that decision had been made not based on some of the limited resources that police forces had and not by senior police officers but by political people, they would have been faced with the reality of what they were doing and maybe paid the political price. What I see happen all too often is that we as politicians use our police forces as a shield. Politicians say that it is an operational issue and they have nothing to do with it. It is their responsibility; they make the decisions. They have nothing to do with it.

In fact, what it really is about in most cases is that we have denied adequate resources to our police forces. They are forced to make these decisions, which are oftentimes economic, financial, and limited resource decisions. We blame them and as politicians and policy-makers we avoid any responsibility. Quite frankly, in my opinion, that is reprehensible and an area that we should be looking at and reviewing.

In particular, with regard to the RCMP, it is an issue that has to be addressed. I expect at some point, if the government itself does not do it, that the legislative committee, in the form of the public security subcommittee or the justice committee itself, would be taking this on and making recommendations in that regard.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Mr. Chair, I am going to disagree profoundly with the member for Windsor—Tecumseh when he talks about the need for parliamentarians to be involved in the day to day decisions of the RCMP. In fact, the RCMP Act, which was passed by this Parliament, establishes that the RCMP commissioner has the control and management of the force and all matters connected therewith.

Imagine what it would be like if a committee of the House or the House of Commons itself was involved in the day to day decisions of the RCMP? That is what some members opposite are calling for in terms of the decision by the RCMP to shut down certain detachments in the province of Quebec. In fact, the member has it wrong. It is not a question of resources. The commissioner and the minister have been very clear that the resources and the head count in the province of Quebec are exactly the same before and after these decisions.

If we were to have political interference in the day to day operations of the RCMP, that would be a tragic day for Canada. Is there going to be a single mayor in this country that will go to his or her member of Parliament and say, “The fact that you shut, or are going to shut, that detachment in my town, I think that's a good decision”. Does the member opposite believe that will occur? Of course, it will not.

We know what is motivating these issues. It is local mayors and local communities distressed that a detachment in their area has been closed. The reality is that the RCMP and the commissioner have been very clear that this is actually concentrating resources, bringing together a critical mass, so that they can fight crime and terrorism more effectively.

The small detachments may be a thing of the past. We have to evolve and we have to rely on the RCMP who are on the front lines facing this day in and day out. When the RCMP commissioner says that this will enhance the security of Canadians, how can it be that a group of parliamentarians, who go in and out of these issues maybe every few weeks or few months, could second guess the commissioner of the RCMP and his organization who deal with these matters day in and day out?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, I am not surprised at the parliamentary secretary taking a different position from mine. We have been having this fight for the better part of several months, not just between ourselves but between myself and a number of members of the justice committee.

He consistently throws the section of the RCMP Act at us, but he consistently, and he did it again this evening, does not quote the whole section.

Section 5.1 reads “that the governor in council”, that basically is the cabinet in these circumstances, “may appoint an officer to be known as the commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who”, and this is the part he always leaves out, “under the direction of the minister”, and then goes on with what he always quotes, “has the control and management of the force and all matters connected therewith”.

There is a role for the minister; it is a legislated role. It is, quite frankly, a role that is the responsibility of the minister in a representative government. That is what we have with the Westminster system which says that “you are responsible as the minister” and cannot hide behind part of this section of the act.

When we deal specifically with the Quebec situation, we are talking about a policy decision, one that has been adopted by a number of countries. It does not say it is right and it is one that the minister should have been involved in. She has refused to do that. She has consistently said that she will not get involved. I believe what she has been consistently saying is that she is shirking her responsibilities under section 5.1 of the act.

[Paul Devillers, Liberal, Simcoe North, ON]

Mr. Chair, Canada's national police force is a modern police organization that is responsible for enforcing the law, preventing crime and protecting Canadians at home and abroad. It is accountable to the communities and the partners it serves in the use of tax dollars and resources to accomplish this mandate.

The RCMP is an organization that serves Canadians well.

Providing police services to a country as large and diverse as Canada requires an organization that is both dynamic and well structured. The RCMP has changed with the times to deliver leading edge policing to all Canadians.

Created by Parliament by merging the Royal North West Mounted Police and the Dominion Police, the RCMP has a mandate to enforce laws, prevent crime, and maintain peace, order and security. Through agreements between the federal government and other bodies, the RCMP provides national, provincial, territorial and municipal police services across Canada.

Since 1996, the RCMP has followed a regional system of management, and is now divided into four regions. Each region is headed by an RCMP deputy commissioner. Additionally, the organization is sub-divided into 14 divisions plus its national headquarters in Ottawa, each of which is under the direction of a commanding officer. At the local level, there are more than 750 detachments.

For management purposes, the RCMP is structured along business lines. Overarching these business lines are strategic priorities that are reviewed periodically to focus both operational and organizational efforts on the goal of providing safe homes and communities for Canadians.

Today, these strategic priorities are organized crime, terrorism, youth, international police services, and serving aboriginal communities. Additionally, wherever possible, these priorities are supported through partnerships and integrated policing efforts.

National Police Services, managed by the RCMP on behalf of all Canadian law enforcement organizations, offers valuable resources to members of Canada’s 500 or so other law enforcement agencies.

These resources include databases—fingerprint, criminal record, forensic image, missing children, firearms—and other specialized services such as those offered by forensic laboratories, the Canadian Bomb Data Centre and the Automated Criminal Intelligence Information System.

The RCMP Contract Policing Services gives it jurisdiction over eight provinces, three territories, more than 200 municipalities, 65 aboriginal communities, three international airports and numerous smaller airports.

Providing police services to a country as large and diverse as Canada requires an organization that is both dynamic and well structured. The RCMP has changed with the times to deliver leading edge policing to all Canadians.

The RCMP's scope of operations is vast. The organization combats terrorism and organized crime and targets specific crimes related to the illicit drug trade. The RCMP is also concerned with economic crimes such as counterfeiting and credit card fraud. Increasingly, it is involved in investigating and prosecuting offences that threaten the integrity of Canada's national borders.

The RCMP also protects VIPs, including the Prime Minister and foreign dignitaries. Additionally, it provides the law enforcement communities with a full range of computer based security services.

While civilian members and public service employees join the RCMP as professionals in a specific area, all regular members begin their careers at the RCMP training academy, also known as Depot Division, in Regina, Saskatchewan. Here they become part of a troop and undergo an extensive 22 week basic training course under the guidance of some of the best police instructors in the world. Training methods include physical and endurance training, values, role playing, performance demonstrations, lectures, panel discussions and community interaction. There is even a small village on campus where various real life policing scenarios are enacted.

The program is tough and not all participants make it through but those who do have a clear understanding of their roles and responsibilities as members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. As they head off from Depot for six months of recruit field training under the supervision of a detachment coach, new Mounties do so knowing they have just received some of the best police training in the world.

Whether on highway patrol in the communities of Newfoundland, educating youth on the dangers of illicit drugs in the classrooms of rural Saskatchewan or intercepting illegal activities along the B.C. coast, the men and women of the RCMP can be found all across Canada. They provide daily policing services in communities, provincial and territorial policing services in every province except Ontario and Quebec, and federal policing services from coast to coast to coast.

The RCMP strives to fulfill its commitment to Canadians to keep our homes and communities safe.

The men and women of the RCMP have a long history of acting in the best interests of Canadians. This commitment is evident in every regular and civilian member, from the newest recruit all the way to the commissioner of the RCMP.

Starting from the moment they enter Depot, RCMP officers are called upon to strive for excellence in everything they do. To become an RCMP officer is to embark on a fulfilling career of public service with an organization that is recognized worldwide as being one of the best police services in the world.

Our world has changed a great deal since the frontier days and the role of the RCMP continues to evolve. Technological and demographic changes, economic uncertainty and diversity make the challenge of policing today very different from yesterday's job. In an ever-changing society that is more globalized, technology based and terrorized, our front line officers and senior managers who set operational and directional priorities must be prepared more than ever to respond in a timely and effective way to keep our citizens and our communities safe.

The men and women of the RCMP provide a vital service to Canadians and Canadian communities in keeping our citizens, our homes and our country safe and secure. The RCMP is recognized internationally for its commitment to excellence. We are indeed fortunate to have them as our national police service.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have a great deal of respect for the member opposite who is the chair of the justice committee.

There has been some discussion recently, after 9/11, about the role of the RCMP in combating terrorism and some suggestions that they may be able to perform the role of providing security for the country in that regard if we were to re-merge CSIS with the RCMP under one chain of command.

I wonder if he has any thoughts on the viability of that and whether it would be an effective way of dealing with that problem.

[Paul Devillers, Liberal, Simcoe North, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think one has to go back to the original reason for the separation of the intelligence service from the policing function of the RCMP. I think the concerns that led to that separation are still very real today. There is still the potential for conflict between the two roles.

I know for a fact that currently the RCMP and CSIS, the intelligence service, are working more and more closely together. They have joint projects and officers are seconded from one to the other. However I am not sure we are at the point where we would want to merge them again because of the possibility of conflict between the two very separate roles, where we are asking the intelligence service to go out and obtain information on citizens, whereas it is an entirely different role and function to be enforcing the laws that are in place.

I am one who would see it as still a good separation provided we are having the cooperation and the coordination between the two forces.

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Mr. Chair, I listened intently to my hon. colleague go on and on about how wonderful our RCMP forces are across the country and how great a job they are doing in municipalities, provinces and for the nation. I could not agree with him more but what we are here tonight to do is to take note of an incident that happened with regard to the police force.

I am wondering what the member, who is a member of the Liberal Party, has to say with regard to our weak laws and the way that the government has moved us and allowed the pendulum to swing so that we have taken such a soft approach to our criminal justice system. How was a man like Mr. Roszko allowed out on the streets after 30 convictions? Why did we just slap his hand, turn him loose and allow him to intimidate a community and many lives in the process? Why have we taken such a soft approach on drugs and on sexual offenders and predators?

For me, when a nation fails to protect itself from the criminals in society it is on very dangerous ground. I believe that is where we have allowed ourselves to come as a society.

Tonight we take note of an incident in reflection of the role of the RCMP. I wonder what the member would have to say to the family members who are watching right now with regard to this incident and the failure of our criminal justice system in light of what has happened.

[Paul Devillers, Liberal, Simcoe North, ON]

Mr. Chair, I want to take issue with the characterization of our system being soft on criminals and so on. This is a frequent refrain that we hear from the Conservative Party in particular.

The incidents that led to the death of these four officers obviously was a tragedy and it is something that needs to be looked at more in the sense of the circumstances that led to this individual being able to have the intimidating effect he apparently had.

I have seen media reports. I am always loathe to make a comment in this place based strictly on media reports but given the media reports it appears that in many of the other criminal charges that the individual faced they were not pursued through to successful prosecutions, mainly because many of the witnesses were so intimidated that they were not coming forth and providing the tribunals with the evidence they needed. I think that is something we need to look at.

The situation we must always be wary of is the one where we have individuals who are in a state where they would almost more properly be dealt with in our mental health system than in the criminal justice system. It seems that this individual, again from media reports, was not the most balanced individual in a lot of ways. Perhaps it is a question of working with the provinces and territories in the area of mental health in being able to deal with these people, even if they have to be incarcerated while we are dealing with them so they would not be a danger to the community.

However one has to deal with particular criminal charges based on the evidence that is available to pursue those prosecutions and, from what I understand, in these instances oftentimes that evidence was not available.

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Mr. Chair, I understand my colleague's comments with regard to this being a mental illness case rather than a law enforcement case, but I do not believe that for a minute. I do not think anyone living in our communities believes this man was insane. He was a master manipulator who had manipulated the court system since he was 12 years old. He received over 30 convictions. That is not the issue here.

The issue is that we have this one incident and woe to the House if we do not take note of it. We have to understand that we have a problem in society and in our criminal justice system. We have a serious situation and it has developed over a number of years. We had better wake up and do something about it because it will get worse and we will see a repeat of what happened in Mayerthorpe.

There are individuals like Mr. Roszko in every riding across the country. We had better understand that this could happen in any one of our ridings. Our police officers are doing their very best with the resources they have. Our court system has failed them. We have failed them with their resources. We will continue to fail them in the House with weak laws that do not allow them to do their job properly.

I would ask the hon. member to seriously consider that this was not mental illness. If he wants to use that as an argument, I would say the government has serious problems dealing with mental illness, if we are looking at that as an issue.

That is not the case with respect to this incident. Nor is it the case with respect to the criminal element that is loose in our society. We continue to return them to our communities. These offenders will keep repeating if we do not do something about them.

I implore the House to understand the importance of taking note of this incident.

[Paul Devillers, Liberal, Simcoe North, ON]

Mr. Chair, I do not want to diminish the impact of this incident and indeed we do need to take note of it. However, I cannot resist taking issue with the picture that is being painted of our criminal justice system letting us down.

Opposition members, and in fact members from all parties, often operate under the misconception that violent crime is on the increase. The public also has that impression. However, the statistics are to the contrary. They indicate that violent crime is not increasing; it is decreasing. Our society is a safer place than it was in the past few years.

I am not trying to diminish the consequences of this incident. We have to ensure that everything is done to prevent any repeat of this type of incident. On balance, our society is less violent than in the past and the statistics are there to prove it. Unfortunately, this is something that many politicians, who are pushing the hot button and seeking public support, are assisting, aiding and abetting in giving the wrong impression.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Chair, I am pleased to have the opportunity to participate in the debate this evening on the RCMP and law enforcement in Canada.

I am splitting my time with the member for Edmonton—Spruce Grove.

I just want to take issue with what was said by my colleague from the justice department. He said that violent crime was somehow going down. I would tell that member to take a look at statistics from 40 years ago and compare where our society was then to today. Now we have the additional fact that crimes are not even being reported any more under the Criminal Youth Justice Act. It is not in issue that crimes are going down; they are simply not being reported any more. People have given up.

If the hon. member wants to find out what the statistics are, he should go back 40 years and compare them year to year and he will see the truth, that violent crime is rising.

The request for the debate was made by my colleague from Yellowhead, following the March 3 deaths of the RCMP officers near Mayerthorpe, Alberta. I want to thank the member for bringing this matter to the House and for all his work.

I want to say again how profoundly grateful Canadians are to these four brave young men who lost their lives on duty. We are also thankful to all the men and women of the RCMP who serve our communities across the country and put their lives at risk in the service of others every day. My own riding is primarily serviced by RCMP officers. The only complaint that people in my riding have about the RCMP is that there are not enough officers. They want to see more of the RCMP and unfortunately they do not.

The crime of the four young officers who were killed like that, and I use the word “crime” deliberately because it is not a tragedy. Tragedies are not preventable. This is a crime that could have been prevented. It was a poignant reminder of our duty as parliamentarians to give our men and women in uniform the very best in support and resources.

In that context I would like to make some brief comments about the cuts that have been made over the past decade to the front lines of our law enforcement officials.

During the past few months, the justice committee has heard testimony about critical shortages of RCMP officers in Quebec and in other parts of Canada, including my own province of Manitoba.

I have received information from confidential internal RCMP sources which indicates that the staffing levels for the RCMP in Manitoba are falling to a critical level, particularly the highway patrol divisions. In my home town of Steinbach, the highway patrol was closed down on the number one highway. Basically, from Winnipeg to almost Falcon Lake, let us say, about 75 miles, was not patrolled by the RCMP because the highway patrol had been shut down.

A committee motion two months ago summoned the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, the Commissioner of the RCMP and the commanding officer of “C” division to explain before it why they ignored the committee's previous order to stay the closure of nine RCMP detachments in Quebec.

The Minister of Public Safety declined to appear in front of the committee and the RCMP Commissioner, although he did appear, did not give much by way of explanation, other than saying that he felt confident he had made the right decision.

During that same committee meeting, we heard from front line officers about the porous nature of our border, the fact that the border was not secure and that our officers simply were not there to take care of incidents as they arose.

Increasingly, with all this talk about the Gomery commission these days, some facts unrelated to the sponsorship have come to light during the testimony that actually shed some light on this issue. I would point members to the testimony of December 15, 2004. Mr. Dawson Hovey, who was in charge of the program review process of 1996, stated that he was required to reduce the RCMP budget by 10%, which involved a budget reduction of about $173 million and the deletion of over 2,200 RCMP positions. This was his sworn testimony.

I recall when I was in the public service in Manitoba as the minister of justice, a Liberal minister came to see me and said that what they were doing was reorganizing and that there would not be any cuts, knowing full well that there would be cuts. In fact, we learned the hard way in Manitoba that there were cuts. The people of Quebec are now learning that there are cuts.

It is no secret that our RCMP have been suffering from budgetary cuts. The government talks about increases in actual money, but it is not going to our front-line police officers.

The health of our police officers and the safety of our communities are suffering because of it. I do not know why the RCMP commissioner simply does not come out and say that the cuts have been made.

I want to take note of this incident. Let us learn from it. Let us honour those officers who have fallen by treating their fellow officers with respect, by providing them with the appropriate resources.

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Transport]

Mr. Chair, I want to join my colleagues across the way, as well as on this side of the House, and pay homage to the four officers whose lives were taken away so suddenly.

I know it depends on which side of the House a member sits. I know my colleague, in whose riding this town was, said that this individual had a long history of crime and was certainly known to the police. Other people say he was probably mentally unstable. We have four police officers who were gunned down by a criminal. That criminal was certainly known to the police.

All the police forces across the country are saying to us that gun control works and that they need to know firepower when they arrive at a house. The individual in question, Mr. Roszko, had guns and he had modified them. Would the hon. members across the way join us in saying that this is what the police want? These are the tools we must give them and we must ensure they are working.

We cannot pick and choose our subjects. We cannot say on one day that we are supporting the RCMP and the police and on the next day turn around and say that gun control does not work. Clearly, the RCMP and a lot of the police forces across the country have asked us to give them the tools they need. This is one of the tools they need in order to make it work.

I wonder if my colleague across the way can stand up and say that they support the RCMP and they support their wishes.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Chair, the issue of gun control is not in dispute here. Conservatives support gun control. What we do not support is the long gun registry. To suggest that a police officer would rely on that registry to determine whether there was any firepower inside a house would be gross negligence on the part of that officer and the supervisor.

Imagine supervisors saying that they have checked the registry, that there is not a gun registered there and that police officers can walk right in. That is absolute foolishness. Every front line police officer who I have spoken with says the registry does not work.

We have now spent almost $2 billion on a registry that does not work. This statistic comes from the CBC. The CBC is another funded government organization. I am relying on the CBC to give me that information that it says it is $2 billion. Let us assume that the $2 billion figure is correct.

I know those members do not want to hear that. I can say that officers would like proper equipment. They would like more officers in the field. RCMP officers in my riding are working 70 and 80 hours a week. They work those hours because they do not have any replacements. Do members know that much of the time they put in is free overtime?

Let us put the money into paying our officers and getting more officers in the field, rather than this foolishness of the gun registry. That gun registry should have been gone a long time ago. Let us demonstrate that we care about our police officers by giving them backup, by giving them equipment and by paying them properly.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Mr. Chair, the member for Provencher had so many facts wrong, but I know my time is limited. I am surprised that a former minister of justice in the province of Manitoba would stand here like this. He knows full well that long guns are in fact one of the most serious weapons used in the commission of violent crimes. In fact, the use of long guns in crimes exceeds the crimes committed with handguns.

The police are making about 2,000 inquiries a day on the gun registry. I guess he is suggesting that the police sit around and have coffee and just tap into the system for fun. it seems to me that the police are saying this is a useful tool, as my colleague has rightly pointed out.

The member knows full well that RCMP Commissioner Zaccardelli was at the committee and said the resources of the RCMP have gone from $2 billion a year a few years ago to $3 billion a year currently. The commissioner has stated categorically that in the province of Quebec it is not a question of resources. The head count and the resources have stayed exactly the same, and in fact, they have increased.

The member opposite knows full well that in certain provinces like Manitoba the RCMP are contracted services. There is a cost sharing formula, with the RCMP paying 30% and the province paying 70%. The RCMP only responds to demands from the province. It is not for the RCMP federally to say that Manitoba needs more RCMP; it is for the province of Manitoba to request support from the RCMP.

The member knows full well that the crime rates in Canada since 1991 have been on a downward trend consistently and that includes violent crime. Although I will concede that in the last year or two it has stabilized, it has been consistently on a downward trend from 10 years ago.

The member, a former minister of justice, knows these facts. I wonder if he would now care to correct the record.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

First of all, Mr. Chair, in respect of the cost sharing and the fact that the province is the one that asks for the police officers, during the time that I was minister of justice, and my colleagues were ministers of justice in a government there, what we used to do was put as much money as we could into the RCMP budget, but we knew that money could not be spent because the RCMP could not supply us with enough officers consistently every single year. We knew that.

In fact, that government over there shut down Depot, the only training centre for RCMP officers in Canada. That government shut it down. That created a huge problem in terms of replacing individuals. Seven years ago we were told that within seven years over 50% of all RCMP officers would be eligible for retirement. We were told, “Increase recruitment. Increase classes”. What did the government do? It shut it down.

So yes, we can go to the province of Manitoba today and it has a budget for RCMP officers, but it cannot get the officers because this government will not deliver on those officers.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

Mr. Chair, I am proud to take part in this debate to pay tribute to the four fallen RCMP officers from my home province of Alberta and discuss ways of preventing similar tragedies from happening in the future.

I want to thank my colleague from Yellowhead for pushing to make sure this debate happened today. He knows full well that safety and security are fundamental principles that must guide this debate as we pay tribute to the fallen, seek answers as to why this has happened, and search for new and innovative ways to deal with the realities of 21st century law enforcement.

Since the 1880s, a total of 191 officers have died in the line of duty, yet only 59 of them have died for the most tragic reason of all: simply because they were targets when they proudly wore the uniform of our nation's national police force. The murders of Constables Peter Schiemann, Anthony Gordon, Leo Johnston and Brock Myrol happened for just that reason.

My riding in the community of Stoney Plain was particularly hard hit because one of those brave officers was one of our own. Constable Peter Schiemann is fondly remembered by all in my constituency of Edmonton—Spruce Grove.

However, it has also been a time when our community has come together in both grief and hope. The town of Stoney Plain itself has been an example of the heart and compassion that has emerged from this tragedy. I had the great privilege of being in Stoney Plain to attend the funeral service for fallen RCMP Constable Peter Schiemann. He is our hero and he is our friend.

It was wonderful to hear his brother and sister, Michael and Julia, talk about their brother, share their memories with us and assure us of the love and faith that Peter had in God and in his fellow RCMP colleagues. I know the Schiemann family has been touched by the support received. This is clearly a Canadian tragedy and many people from across this country want to contribute to the healing process. From this, we must move forward. We must look for ways to prevent this from happening again so that the deaths of our officers did not occur in vain.

When I was speaking to RCMP officers in my riding, they told me that the killer, James Roszko, represents a larger problem that is facing all police officers today. RCMP and law enforcement officers increasingly encounter mental health issues on the job, yet they have limited power to act in these types of situations and limited resources for dealing with this difficult community challenge. They expressed to me the need for more funding and for support for community programs to deal with mental health issues.

There is no doubt that federal funding for mental health issues is lacking. This is inexcusable. The officers want the tools to work with these individuals, not simply the tools to investigate the unfortunate aftermath that neglect often leads to.

The location of this crime also provides an unfortunate glimpse into the dark world of the illicit drug trade. Marijuana grow operations have become a low risk, high profit industry in Alberta and indeed all of Canada. In the face of this crime, my constituents want to know why we do not have a national drug strategy.

I would also like to raise the manpower issue as the top concern of my constituents and, indeed, small communities across the country. Funding for the RCMP continues to remain stagnant and that directly translates into less protection for our neighbours, families and friends and into increased risks for our officers. For example, in Stoney Plain alone we could use another three to four officers. Spruce Grove would like to have at least another four to six officers.

We have to find ways to properly fund our forces so they are there when we need them most. It is hard to believe that we have to go back years to find a time when funding was actually substantially increased to these units.

Canada's laws have to be enforced, but we must also not forget the issues that these brave officers have once again brought to our attention: the issues of mental illness, gun control, marijuana grow operations, and increased funding for the RCMP.

Unlike the Liberal Party of Canada, we do not support the decriminalization of marijuana, nor do we defend a tragically failing long gun registry.

We have to act before it is too late. We must increase the size of our police forces in small communities. We must enforce our national laws against grow operations. We must look for ways to intervene before these unthinkable acts occur. That is our responsibility to the Canadian people and to our fallen heroes.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Chair, in speaking with RCMP officers or other police agencies in the province of Alberta and in her riding, what do they identify as their greatest needs in order to meet the challenges of fighting crime in the 21st century?

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

Mr. Chair, just this weekend I had an opportunity to talk to the RCMP officers in my riding. The issue they spoke most passionately about was the need for funding.

The hon. member for Provencher has mentioned how many of these officers work in our communities, communities like mine, like Spruce Grove and Stoney Plain. They volunteer and coach hockey in the community. They work countless hours as volunteers in the community, adding to the community, and they love their jobs and their communities, but much of the work they do with volunteer organizations in our communities of Spruce Grove and Stoney Plain is unpaid.

While they love their jobs, it is important that we find the funding necessary to be able to retain and attract the good people that we have in the RCMP force today. As I said earlier, just in my riding alone the town of Stoney Plain requires at least another two to three more officers and the city of Spruce Grove is looking to replace and supplement another four to six officers.

I think the issue of funding is the most particularly pressing issue right now.

[Rob Merrifield, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Mr. Chair, I listened very intently to the hon. member, who is in a neighbouring riding, the closest riding to me with regard to these slain officers, so I think her community feels the impact of this as intensely as we do in Yellowhead.

There is a significant problem in Yellowhead. It has been addressed somewhat by the media. We tried to address it here when I introduced a private member's bill on methamphetamine, but marijuana certainly is a significant problem.

I think it is important for the House to understand that marijuana from the 1970s and the hippie movement was at 3% to 5% THC. As for what we are seeing on the streets now, I talked to an RCMP officer in my riding who told me that now most of the grow ops are into the upper 20% to 30% THC levels, so this is a completely different product, which is what the RCMP officers are saying. I do not think we quite understand that when we get into a debate in the House, but my hon. colleague would know some of these things because of the significant problems we are seeing.

Marijuana is a big problem. This incident also sheds light on that problem in that this individual had a grow op, not of 20 plants but of 283 plants valued at over $300,000. He certainly was not smoking that all by himself; obviously he was linked to some sort of organized crime.

I have to tell the House how big a problem grow ops are in this nation. Why is there such a problem with methamphetamine and how do we link the two? That is what we are seeing happening on the streets and in the schoolyards in our ridings where the marijuana is being laced by methamphetamine, which is a very addictive product.

I am no expert, but the professionals tell me that of people who use this twice, over 92% become addicted. This product is unbelievable when it comes to ravaging the individual. The average lifespan of an individual on crystal meth is seven years. That is why it is such a significant problem.

I would like to ask my colleague about her concerns with this drug. Our riding happens to be the unfortunate target of the methamphetamine labs and there are significant amounts of methamphetamine use. It has happened since I became a member in 2000 and has progressed over the last number of years. Communities have linked arms to do their very best to push back against it. There is no lack of political will. There are tremendous amounts of resources going to fight this, but I can tell the House that we are losing that fight.

I wonder if my colleague has the same concerns in her riding with this very significant problem. Her riding is very close to mine along the Yellowhead highway. The reason it is important to bring it into this debate is that if members of Parliament do not believe it is a problem in their ridings, they just have to wait a very short time and it will be. I guarantee it.

[Rona Ambrose, Conservative, Edmonton—Spruce Grove, AB]

Mr. Chair, over the last few weeks I have spoken to the RCMP about this issue and I have learned a great deal about it. I was not aware of the great impact of this drug trade and this growing drug problem in our community. It is a huge problem in high schools, but unfortunately I have to say that it is also a huge problem in junior high schools and middle schools. Very young children are using this. Children up to university age use it. My understanding is that the problem with this drug is that it is so easily accessible in terms of the materials needed to produce it.

Of course, having said that it is very cheap to make, I note that it is also easy to distribute and cheap to buy. As my hon. colleague mentioned, it is also extremely addictive. It is a huge problem in my riding as well. Increasingly I have parents coming into my riding office to talk about the problems in their own communities and high schools. This is something we absolutely need to look at, particularly along the lines of a national drug strategy, which we have spoken about before.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food (Rural Development)]

Mr. Chair, I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on the RCMP and law enforcement. I take special privilege, appreciation and pride for the period of time when I served as solicitor general responsible for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

I had the opportunity to work with all levels of the force: the commissioner, senior management and the rank and file. While as solicitor general one does not get into specific operations as related to investigation and cases, the government through the minister is ultimately responsible for policing and the RCMP in the country.

I expect that it has been mentioned earlier in the debate, but I do want to review the fact that the RCMP is really unique in the world since it is a national, federal, provincial and municipal policing body in the country. We provide a total policing service to all Canadians and policing services under contract to 3 territories, 6 provinces, except Quebec and Ontario, and approximately 198 municipalities and, under 172 individual agreements, to 192 first nations communities.

I think all of us can say that when we go to an event and we see the red serge that the RCMP wears, we feel that pride in our hearts.

The RCMP is involved in five strategic priorities, the first one being organized crime and the second being terrorism. In both those areas I think we have made significant progress in recent years. We have set up the integrated border enforcement teams. I have had the opportunity to be at some of those sites. What an integrated border enforcement team really does is integrates the local police forces, both in the United States and Canada, and many of the other organizations that are involved in emergency response. As a result of that integration and really sitting down to develop some understanding between forces, which are often for the wrong reasons competitive with each other, we actually do a better job of policing.

I can say that of the ones that I have been able to visit, and after looking at our standards in Canada through the RCMP and the standards south of the border, we can actually see and feel the respect that there is for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in how they do their job. Their training comes through.

On the terrorism side specifically, we have set up the IBETs and the INSETs, the integrated national security enforcement teams, and they too are doing an exceptional job as they coordinate with all the departments that are involved, with other intelligence agencies across North America and, in some cases, beyond in terms of doing a good job of protecting not only Canada but our neighbour to the south as well.

In terms of working with the youth, which is a fairly major priority of the RCMP, the RCMP go out to schools, where they are so highly respected and trusted, and educate and try to prevent young people from becoming involved in crime. They try to gain some understanding in what this really means.

As well, now through the Department of Public Security, which was previously the solicitor general and the Department of Justice, we have set up the national crime prevention strategy which is also, in many instances, designed to work with youth, whether it is carjacking or whatever, in terms of working at the prevention level to prevent incidents of crime happening.

The RCMP is involved in the international policing perspective which involves the RCMP going elsewhere around the world, working with other police forces in local jurisdictions and in other areas and training them in the techniques and the kinds of policies that we use in this country that will assist them in doing better policing. I was talking to an officer on the weekend in my own community who will be going to Jordan to train the Iraqi police force in terms of doing better policing from their perspective.

As has been mentioned here a number of times this evening, the RCMP works extensively in the aboriginal community in terms of policing in that area. We have aboriginal police officers who understand the community, can work with the community and at the end of the day do a better job of preventing criminal activity from happening and, if necessary, enforce the laws of the land.

We may, if we like, question the laws established by Parliament or we may question the sentencing provisions as imposed by the judges and the courts but we absolutely cannot question the dedication and the efforts made by the rank and file of the RCMP or, in my view, the senior management in carrying out the policies and the laws as established by Parliament.

The area on which I want to take a moment to speak to, based on my experience and my time as solicitor general, is an area in which I believe we and especially the courts must do a better job. As solicitor general I made it my job to go out and visit as many detachments as I could. I do not have a lot of time so I will just mention one.

I can remember vividly a meeting with the detachment in Surrey, B.C. Members opposite raised the question earlier of marijuana grow operations. In the room that day when I met with the detachment in Surrey were probably 28 or 30 RCMP officers. I remember two officers vividly: one was probably 28 and the other was probably 29. One had been out of Depot a year and a half. They sat in the corner to my right and they were almost in tears talking about their concern in terms of taking down marijuana grow operations and the fact that before they were back to the office the next day, the people were out on the streets.

As the solicitor general I spoke out against this, although we are not supposed to criticize the judiciary, but the judiciary has to come to its senses in terms of exercising the full intent of the law in terms of marijuana grow operations. What those RCMP officers clearly told me when I met with them on site in the Surrey detachment was that they put their lives on the line and they see the devastation that marijuana grow operations cost. Anyone who visits Vancouver's east side can see that devastation personally, as a number of us in the House have. I would suggest maybe some of the judges should do that.

I want to come back to the two young RCMP officers who were basically asking me as solicitor general why they should put their lives on the line to take down a marijuana grow operation, which causes devastation, only to find out that before they get back to work the next day the suspects are out on the street.

What I am trying to express here on behalf of those RCMP officers who talked to me is that the courts, especially the judges in B.C., have to clearly enforce the intent of the law which is to penalize those people who are involved in marijuana grow operations to the full extent of the law.

On behalf of the RCMP officers who are trying to enforce the laws that Parliament adopts and puts in place, I would suggest to the judiciary that they take those laws seriously and, in terms of marijuana grow operations and the people who operate that criminal activity, that they enforce those laws to the full extent of the law as intended by Parliament and not on the lenient side.

We can at least do that for the RCMP officers who went into the occupation, who did the training and who want to exercise their responsibilities and activities for the benefit of all Canadians.

We are so fortunate in this country to have a police force like the RCMP and the RCMP make us all proud as Canadians of the work they do as law enforcement officers across this nation.