House of Commons Hansard #82 of the 38th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was liberal.

Topics

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4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK

Mr. Speaker, I have listened intently to the member opposite. I must say on a personal note that I find the minister a very engaging individual and a very compelling speaker. I would like to ask the minister to indulge me and answer a hypothetical question, because the minister has been stating continuously that it may have happened, that these are allegations, and that perhaps if it had happened there would have been a small group of people involved.

Hypothetically, how can he reconcile this? I am having trouble figuring this one out. If some of the allegations were true, hypothetically, and if in fact, as has been alleged, many members, Liberal organizers, were on payrolls being paid by Groupaction and others, but still doing work for the Liberal Party of Canada, would not the Liberal Party of Canada have been able to recognize it and say, “If these are full time organizers and we are not paying them, something is going wrong here”. Would it not?

How could it be contained to a small group of people, isolated people, without others within the organization knowing? If the allegations contained in the sworn testimony of the Gomery commission are true, to me it seems to be just inconceivable that only a few people would know about this. It has to be a larger problem than the minister is suggesting.

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4:35 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

Mr. Speaker, even if it is hypothetical, I have been searching quite a bit, as members can imagine, and this is what I have been told. On this idea that we had full time people at the party headquarters supposedly working for the party, the people I talked to have not seen them.

The reality is that some people may claim that they were working full time for the Liberal Party, but the legitimate elected executive of the Liberal Party did not see them as full time. Some of them might have been volunteers who would show up once in a while, but not full time staff. Obviously I would agree with the hon. member that if we have somebody there full time and we do not pay them we have to ask ourselves some questions. What we have heard about was potential volunteers who would drop by. The hon. member probably has the same in his riding association or at his party headquarters once in a while.

As for this whole system of people being full time and paid by somebody else, nobody has seen that, nobody I have talked to, and they were the elected officials, members of the conseil de direction. They have not been privy to that type of stuff.

That is why I say let us wait until the end of the Gomery inquiry, because a lot of those people who are supposed to have been full time or whatnot, they have to get in the box and answer the questions and Justice Gomery will decide, but at the present time we have a lot of question marks. I need those answers.

If people have been working full time for the Liberal Party and not getting paid by the Liberal Party, they should be totally reimbursed, I do not mind, but we have to know. Right now there are allegations, but people who were at headquarters never saw them full time.

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4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Lessard Bloc Chambly—Borduas, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transport. It is quite difficult to follow him. On one hand, he admits that there is a little group—or clique, for he also used that word—and, on the other hand, he pretends that this can happen in other parties as well. We agree that it could happen.

Unless I am mistaken, however, it was not the Conservative Party or the NDP or the Bloc Québécois that controlled the national unity fund. It was his party that managed that fund. I think that he will admit that.

Given that and given the existence of a small group, would the minister not agree that in a party that is at all informed and transparent, people usually know what is going on? It was not the Holy Spirit who inspired the Prime Minister to create the Gomery commission. In three and a half years, the Bloc Québécois asked 444 questions before the Prime Minister decided to create the Gomery commission. We must not forget that.

I would like to hear the Minister of Transport on that. How can he explain that nobody at any location or level in his party saw or heard anything? Everybody knows that the Prime Minister was number two in the party at that time. I was not in the House when all that happened, I am a new member here. However, among the general public, everybody knew and saw what was going on. The Liberal Party was the only one seeing nothing.

Today, I have an opportunity to ask the question in the hope of getting a credible answer. I would like to have an answer to this: if there is a clique, a small group, it cannot be in the other parties, but only where people had control of the fund and could help themselves to it. A transparent and perceptive party must know where the clique is and should identify it. That is the reason why the misappropriated money should be put into a trust fund.

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4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

Mr. Speaker, I want to tell the member that I did say, in light of the allegations, that perhaps a group abused the situation. It has been said that it was the party, but that is not true. The government implemented programs. The party, its supporters and the executive managed the party. I can say personally, as political lieutenant, that the Quebec wing of the Liberal Party does not manage the government whatsoever. That is not its job. The government manages and the party is separate.

So, are there people who might have abused the situation in the party's name? Did a group abuse the situation? It is possible. That is what Justice Gomery is currently trying to determine. The member says that everyone knew; well, I am sorry but that is not true. In fact, in the media, we were all trying to get the scoop. I wanted the scoop just like everybody else. In reality, they were the only ones who knew the truth. That is why I find this is a bit surprising from the Bloc Québécois. In reality, those who learned the first disturbing facts were not members of the Bloc, but Globe and Mail reporters, including Daniel LeBlanc. He should get credit for his investigative reporting at the very least.

The member read the morning paper and asked the question in the afternoon. That was the member's contribution. These investigative journalists will, I hope, keep doing what they do since that is essentially why this country needs a free press.

What we were all trying to do, none of us successfully, was to learn all the facts. That is why we created a commission of inquiry, since it has exceptional powers that no press agency has. So, a commission of inquiry is able to do the work. We are learning disturbing information every day. We have agreed to this, because we want to learn the truth. We want the report and, once we have it, we will take action; and that is a promise.

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4:40 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Speaker, there have been a number of references today, I believe by the Minister of Transport and by other members of the Liberal Party, of these forensic reviews. I believe those forensic reviews were commissioned under the direction of that minister. He may want to confirm that the reviews have been filed with the Gomery commission.

Would he would be prepared to table those in the House so the public would have access to them?

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4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Jean Lapierre Liberal Outremont, QC

Mr. Speaker, they certainly will be available. These accounting analyses cost us an arm and a leg. It cost some $200,000 to find out what happened and how the bookkeeping was done at a time when the Prime Minister and his people did not have control over the party.

The auditor was asked to conduct analyses in Quebec and at the national level. All the members of this House can consult these two audit reports, of some 200 pages, on the Liberal Party of Canada website. Everything was looked at. I am telling you, this money did not end up in the party's coffers. I can assure you of this since the auditor looked at every donation, every receipt, everything and it cost us an arm and a leg.

However, we have no idea if anything happened outside this context, in a parallel situation, without our knowledge, but the inquiry will find that out. Do you think that anyone who abused the name of the Liberal Party would tell us? Do you think that anyone who collected dirty money would brag about it? That is why we need the inquiry.

Liberal supporters are just as upset to hear about these things as I am. They are following the work of the inquiry and they are appalled, and rightfully so. All this happened without their knowledge and the name and good reputation of the Liberal Party has been abused. That is why we want this cleaned up. If there are any individuals or groups that abused the party's name, then they should pay.

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4:45 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Order, please. It is my duty pursuant to Standing Order 38 to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, National Defence; the hon. member for Edmonton—Leduc, Taxation; the hon. member for Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, Transport Canada.

I believe the member for Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier has used only 10 of the 20 minutes allotted for his speech and I understand that he wanted to share the remaining 10 minutes with another member.

The member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert.

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4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Mr. Speaker, the motion brought forward by the Bloc Quebecois simply asks that the Liberal Party deposit the money into a trust account. It is not complicated and it makes a lot of sense.

When one realizes that a sum of money belongs to someone else, based on what people have said under oath, the least one can do is to part with that money, to put it aside for some time and then decide what to do with it once the work of the Gomery commission is completed. However, that money must first be deposited into a trust account because some people said under oath that it does not belong to the Liberal Party. This is why I have a hard time figuring out why the Minister of Transport keeps saying the contrary at the top of his lungs.

I would like to remind members that the Liberal Party ran three campaigns with tainted money. Let us not forget that it was the member for Outremont who first used that term. We must prevent that party to run a fourth campaign with that tainted money.

The current Prime Minister, the member for LaSalle—Émard, did nothing until he was pushed to the wall by the opposition, the media and the ire of the public. If the current Prime Minister is still refusing to give back that dirty money, the House must force him to do so.

The Prime Minister does not have to wait for the end of the Gomery commission. For example, Bernard Landry, the president of the Parti Québécois, has a very strict code of ethics, that is, one that is healthy and normal. So as soon as allegations were made at the Gomery commission that money had been paid to the Parti Québécois, he immediately put it in a trust. He is awaiting the next phase, that is, the end of the Gomery commission. That is the way things usually work. That is how people act when they have a good code of ethics.

It is true that these are allegations, but remember, they are very serious, documented and made under oath. Let us not forget that.

How can anyone oppose the motion by the Bloc Québécois? I had a lot of trouble finding reasons, but I found three of them. Naturally, I will now elaborate on them.

Spontaneously, the first reason that came to me is that the Liberals are in denial. They deny the facts, do not see reality and are not aware of what is going on. Yet, as I said just now, the allegations at the Gomery commission are documented, serious and made under oath.

I have drawn up a little list so that, together, we can remember all of this. First, let's talk about the sources of the money. There is the money officially paid to the Liberal Party by the companies of Jean Brault and Groupaction: $166,000. There are the salaries and “other payments” made to Alain Renaud, who was working for the Liberal Party: $1 million. There are the payments to PluriDesign “for the cause”: $530,000, broken down into $430,000 and $100,000 according to Jean Brault's estimates. Phoney invoices from Commando: $70,000, including $50,000 for certain organizers and $20,000 for eastern Quebec. There are payments of various invoices: $44,000, including a Liberal Party video by Nathalie Tremblay, $24,000; Verchères golf club, $14,100; and Georges Farrah's canvassing at the Summit of the Americas, $6,000. And there is more.

There is the assistance sought by Mr. Corbeil after the 2000 election: $60,000. The hiring of “Liberal friends”: $230,000. Who are these Liberal friends? They are Daniel-Yves Durand: $500 a week for two months; Serge Gosselin: $80,000; John Welch: $97,000; Marie-Lyne Chrétien: 8 months at Groupaction; Wiseman: $20,000 or $25,000. There is also the payment by Richard Boudrault: $40,000 for three election workers, and a loan from Richard Boudrault for the 1997 election. There are cash payments in 1997: $50,000. There are cash payments to put off the call for tenders on the “firearms registry” account: $50,000. There is a phoney invoice issued by Gaby Chrétien for Liberal Party funding: $4,000. The total comes to $2.2 million.

As you can see, these facts are so specific that one cannot just shrug them off and say they are not serious allegations. I remind you that they are very serious, and documented, and made under oath. So it is not very likely that the Liberals are going to deny the facts.

The second reason why one might perhaps not vote in favour of the motion is that one might deny that there was a system. For there was indeed a system in that party.

One would have to be very naive to think that no system existed for organizing all this misappropriation of funds from the Liberal government. According to my colleague from Nepean—Carleton, it was theft.

We have learned from the commission that there was indeed a system. According to sworn testimony—I remind you—the system consisted of networks, in the plural, or cliques, still in the plural, where some very highly placed public officials, owners and employees of greedy communications agencies, and senior Liberal Party officials met, but most of all and most importantly, as the crowning touch, with political direction. The obvious pretext was to plaster Quebec with red flags and use flagpoles to drive Canadian unity down the throats of Quebeckers—a failing proposition, obviously. In fact, 54 members of the Bloc Québécois are here in the House and they are the living proof that it failed.

The results of the next election campaign will show again that they achieved the opposite effect, and I do not dare yet to predict the results of another referendum.

I want to tell you a bit about the system that was discussed at the Gomery commission. First there was Jacques Corriveau, the main Liberal Party financier and bagman, who took 10% of the agency commissions collected by Groupaction on sponsorship contracts awarded to Polygone. Through this scheme alone, Jacques Corriveau was able to collect half a million dollars for the Liberal Party of Canada.

Jean Brault was highly sought after financially by the Liberal Party of Canada between 1995 and 2002. He and his companies provided more than $2.2 million, either in cash or through the payment of fictitious professional fees, the payment of phony invoices, the settlement of bills incurred by the Liberal Party, such as for golf tournaments, restaurants, videos, etc., the payment of contributions to funding activities, and Groupaction hiring various people who never worked there. This dirty money is only a start. Further testimony will make it possible to add to it.

While the member for Outremont blames these acts on a parallel group or clique, as he just said, in order to minimize the situation, the witnesses at the Gomery commission tell us that the highest levels of the Liberal Party were involved.

The office of Prime Minister Jean Chrétien, Jean Pelletier, Jean Carle approved the budgets and projects. Every year, the Department of Finance replenished the Canadian unity fund, which was financing the Sponsorship Program. The Treasury Board and its president, the member for Westmount—Ville-Marie and its vice-president, the current Prime Minister, closed their eyes to certain dubious practices. The bagmen and agencies doing partisan work for the Liberal Party filled their pockets.

The system worked extremely well. Funds were merrily taken from the Department of Public Works to fill the Liberal Party's coffers, while greasing the palms of agency friends. The latter tried, by the way, to reproduce in Quebec the model that they had learned on the federal level, but it did not work. The Liberals must put the dirty money into a trust fund.

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4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Françoise Boivin Liberal Gatineau, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask my colleague, following her intervention filled with allegations, if, on one hand, she believes in the Gomery commission and if, on the other hand, she believes that it is also a good approach to have pursued civil action against those who have allegedly diverted funds?

Furthermore, does she believe that it is a good approach to go before criminal courts when we think we are able to prove that some individuals have committed fraud, what could even be called influence peddling? Does she agree with these approaches?

Finally, she insists on telling us that it is absolutely extraordinary that the Parti Québécois has established a trust account, as if this were the panacea of the century. If my memory serves me well, having heard some comments and read probably the same newspapers as my colleague, it seems to me that I heard that it had received $100,000 from the famous witness whom she mentioned a lot in her speech. As far as I know, according to what the leader of the Parti Québécois said, with his hand on his heart, $20,000 was put into the trust account. Where is the other $80,000? That is the question I would like to ask my colleague.

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4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Mr. Speaker, I have such faith in the Gomery commission and in all the other legal proceedings under way that I think it is important to deposit the money in a trust right away and to at least wait for the commission to complete its work before deciding what to do with that money placed in trust.

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4:55 p.m.

St. Catharines Ontario

Liberal

Walt Lastewka LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services

Mr. Speaker, I listened carefully to the previous speaker. There was mention of Mr. Brault and some of his testimony. I am surprised the opposition is making all its decisions based on that testimony. Mr. Brault has been indicted for fraud. He is being sued for $30 million. There will be other witnesses testifying before Justice Gomery in the next number of weeks.

I go back to the fact that the public accounts committee has reported. There were 29 recommendations and the government has acted on 16. The special counsel for financial review has reported and made recommendations. Nineteen individuals and companies have settlement claims to the tune of $41 million. These were all actions taken by the Prime Minister and the government as soon as the recommendations came through.

Does the member agree that it is important for Gomery to finish his work in the next number of months as far as witnesses and to ensure that his report is completed as soon as possible so the government can then act on those recommendations that the Gomery report brings forward?

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4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Mr. Speaker, obviously I believe that the work done by the Gomery commission is extremely important. I believe the allegations that have been made have been well documented. They have been very serious and made under oath.

That is why we must take the money that was diverted to the Liberal Party, put it in trust and wait for the conclusion of the Gomery commission before deciding what the Liberal Party should do with that money, depending on the outcome of the trials or the findings in the Gomery report.

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4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Walt Lastewka Liberal St. Catharines, ON

Mr. Speaker, some of the 19 defendants who have been served statements of claim to the tune of $41 million are members of some of the groups she has mentioned: Groupaction, Groupe Everest, Gosselin and Jean Lafleur Communications. It would seem that out of justice of proper law in Canada this will now be brought to the Superior Court in the judicial district of Montreal and the court proceedings should go forward with the statements of claim for these various communications agencies.

Does she agree that this action by the government is the proper way to serve justice in our country called Canada?

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5 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Mr. Speaker, the way to do justice to Quebec and Canadian taxpayers is to prevent the Liberal Party of Canada from waging a fourth election campaign with dirty sponsorship money.

Paul Martin has said that he had the moral responsibility to act. But as early as 1993-1994, the Liberal Party received contributions from certain agencies, and as a result—

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5 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

I apologize for interrupting the hon. member, but I thought I heard the name of an hon. member of this House. I believe she knows the rule.

The hon. member now has the floor to rephrase her remarks.

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5 p.m.

Bloc

Carole Lavallée Bloc Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC

Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, I got carried away.

I was saying that the Prime Minister said he had the moral responsibility to act. We all agree on that point. However, beginning in 1993-94, the Liberal Party received contributions from certain communications agencies, notably those of Jean Brault and Jean Lafleur and all of those that the hon. member named. So the Liberal Party waged a campaign with dirty money in 1997, in 2000 and in 2004. The same thing must not happen again in 2005.

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5 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, first, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert for her excellent speech. I think it will be remembered as one of the best analyses of this scandal, and particularly of the irresponsibility of this government and of the Prime Minister, who does not want to finish the job that he should be doing.

I am also very proud to rise in this House to defend the Bloc Québécois' motion. In my opinion, this motion makes perfect sense under the circumstances. I will read it again, so that those who are watching us at home can see that it is easy to understand and that it should normally enjoy a consensus in the House. So, the motion reads as follows:

That the House call on the government to immediately establish a trust account into which the Liberal Party of Canada can deposit all funds received from companies and individuals tied to the sponsorship scandal and identified in testimony before the Gomery commission.

This motion asks that the government, as the steward of the Canadian and Quebec taxpayers' money, act responsibly following the revelations made at the Gomery commission and establish a trust, that is an account to ensure that, when the Gomery commission has completed its work, when Mr. Justice Gomery has presented his findings and recommendation, the money will not have disappeared—as too many people with close ties to the Liberal Party of Canada probably imagined would happen—and can actually be recovered.

So, the government is basically being asked to act like a reasonable person—or a good parent, as we used to say—and to establish an account, so that the Liberal Party of Canada can transfer at least $2.2 million and thus satisfy the wishes of the House and of the government. Again, this measure would ensure that, at the end of the Gomery commission process, we can recover that money. Let us not forget that this whole scheme was funded with our taxes.

So it seems to me that the argument often used by the federal Liberals, that we have to wait until the Gomery commission finishes its work, is totally irrelevant. We want to ensure that this money will be recovered when the commission tables its report and makes its recommendations. That is why we must take immediate action, before the money disappears. This is the only responsible thing to do, and it is what the government and the Liberal Party should do.

Instead, our friends opposite are resorting to sophistry to delay, once again, assuming their responsibilities, which, unfortunately, has been the case since the new leader of the Liberal Party took over the party and became the Prime Minister of Canada. All his decisions have been the result of pressure from the opposition, particularly the Bloc, public opinion and the media.

Once again, the Bloc Québécois is doing its job and showing the Prime Minister, the government and the Liberal Party the way forward. That is why I am extremely proud to belong to this party. On this side, we know full well that, sooner or later, the Liberal Party of Canada and the government—if it is still there after the election—will have to move in the right direction.

I am pleased to see that there is consensus among the opposition parties on this motion. As a result, we expect that the House will adopt this motion next week. I hope that the Prime Minister and the government will obey the decision of a majority in this House.

Once again, this motion is in keeping with the work being done by the Gomery commission and aims simply to ensure that the government assumes its responsibilities and ensures the proper use of public funds. When funds are misappropriated, we must take steps to recover them. In this case, in order to ensure that, ultimately, these funds can be recovered, the Liberal Party of Canada must immediately put this dirty money, identified in testimony before the Gomery commission, in an account created by this Liberal government. We are talking about $2.2 million.

I would still like to add one element regarding the political aspect and I believe my colleagues mentioned it earlier today. Since the referendum in 1995, we have seen the Liberal government and the Liberal Party of Canada consistently sliding, identifying Quebec and Canada's interests with the federalist interests, as if the sovereignist option had no legitimacy. To quote Jean Chrétien, who was talking here in this House only a few months ago, any and all means are acceptable when it comes to preventing Quebeckers from making a democratic and informed decision about their common future.

This totally anti-democratic vision led to the sponsorship program aimed at increasing the visibility of the federal government. They thought that by increasing their visibility, they could promote federalism, which in my view is insulting for Quebeckers. We went from there to another vision that is becoming progressively clear in the testimonies heard at the Gomery commission, a vision in which the interests of the Canadian federalism have become the interests of the Liberal Party of Canada.

We have seen it many times in the attitude taken by that government and that party who believe they are the only party in Canada. To them, there is no other alternative than the one they promote, whether for forming a government or planning a society.

Finally, things have slipped. We must understand that through this system they were defending not only a vision of Canada that is totally anti-democratic and the partisan interests of the Liberal Party of Canada. They also found a way to be very generous with governing party's cronies and finally, as the Gomery commission has shown, to increase funding for the Liberal Party.

There has been an impressive shift since 1995 and it did not go unnoticed among Quebeckers as indicated by the opinion polls made public in the last few weeks. Not only did last June election showed that the Quebeckers wanted to teach a lesson or two to the federal Liberals, but Quebeckers are now looking forward to the next election and the opportunity to condemn even more strongly the actions of the Liberal Party of Canada and of the agencies with close ties to the Liberal government and that party.

Quebeckers could not be fooled by the shenanigans of Jean Chrétien's Liberals and others, like the current Minister of Environment who thinks that Quebeckers can be brainwashed to become good disciplined federalists.

That is not how things work in the life of a people. Values, objectives, and national identity are such that the number of flags and the amount of money spent in publicity will not stop history. I believe that is quite obvious in Quebec since in the last election 54 Bloc Québécois members were elected, which brings us back to square one.

The sponsorship scandal is not our doing, but theirs. We are placed in a situation where the sovereignists in Quebec are going to take the offensive, are taking the offensive. We hope that the federal election will be called as quickly as possible in order to teach the federal Liberals a lesson and also to get to the bottom of this all, to what lies behind the sponsorship scandal, namely the question of the Quebec nation. We want to settle that once and for all.

Once again, we are not the ones who created the situation. The Gomery inquiry will, I believe, enable us to convince those Quebeckers who were not, unfortunately, convinced in 1995 that a healthy and democratic political life, without the corruption we are seeing at the federal level at present, requires us to have our own country, that it requires Quebec sovereignty. This is what lies behind the sponsorship scandal, and what puts an end to that scandal will be the sovereignty of Quebec

In my opinion, the hon. member for Gatineau is a pretty extraordinary woman. She really believes the party line she has been given. She is trying to draw a comparison with the situation in Quebec. She speaks of the $100,000 mentioned by Jean Brault at the Gomery inquiry. She speaks of the $50,000 the Quebec Liberal Party supposedly received from Jean Brault's agency.

It is not at all the same thing. The Deputy Premier of Quebec, Jean Dupuis, who is a Liberal working with Jean Charest, has no desire for Quebec's sovereignty. He has made that clear. Quebec's system is not perfect, but it has avoided scandals in awarding contracts or plumping up the electoral funds of various parties. It is quite likely that Jean Brault somewhat naively thought he could set up the same system in Quebec as the one in Ottawa, but it did not work.

The beauty of the Gomery inquiry is that it has shown us that the same people in Ottawa, who got rich on the backs of the taxpayers, wanted to set up the same system in Quebec, but it did not work. Quebec's political party financing legislation and the parties' ethics, whether the Parti Québécois or the Liberal Party of Quebec, ensured that this system did not get off the ground. Even though some people made contributions that did not comply with Quebec legislation, the system generally prevailed. The proof is that Jean Brault did not get the Société des alcools du Québec contract.

Quebec's chief electoral officer was called by some people to conduct an investigation following the revelations at the Gomery inquiry. He looked at the case and said there was nothing to investigate, that it was an obvious aberration, and that the guilty parties would be found, those people who contributed to the Liberal Party of Quebec or the Parti Québécois, those who set up their expense accounts so that their employer could deposit a cheque. Sometimes the employer did not even wait for an invoice and issued a cheque immediately. That is illegal and it is in this context that Bernard Landry did the only responsible thing, the only honest thing, and that is to create a trust account.

Commissioner Gomery now says, “I cannot provide you with the list because that is not my mandate.“ Indeed, Radio-Canada journalist, Pierre Tourangeau, followed a similar path and he arrived at the same result as the Parti Québécois. So far, with their resources, since the Gomery commission states that it does not have jurisdiction in that regard, they have managed to track down somewhere between $20,000 and $30,000. However, they have acted entirely in good faith, which is not the case with this government and this party. They have been given a chance. They should take it and maybe approach the problem differently than they have been doing since at least the year 2000, if not since 1997.

The Liberals must take their responsibilities to the end and not just talk about them. I understand more and more the definition of a Liberal: You talk, you talk, you talk and you do not take action. You do not do anything, except maybe slip a little something to your cronies.

In that sense, we are doing them a service today. We are giving them a chance to change course or to make a fresh start with the Canadian and Quebec public. In my opinion, as far as Quebec is concerned, it is over forever. On the other hand, the Liberals may still have an opportunity to redeem themselves in the eyes of the citizens of Canada.

If they were intelligent, they would accept the solution offered to them by the Bloc Quebecois and the other opposition parties, which is to establish a trust account. Also, because of the close relationship between the government and the Liberal Party of Canada—in fact, the Prime Minister is the leader of that political party—that party should be asked to deposit the $2.2 million in that trust account immediately, as well as any other amount found by the commission as it continues its work.

There is no reason to wait. The first responsible step to take is to establish that trust account. However, I would like to add a few elements. I said it and I will repeat, the sponsorship scandal was not caused simply by the greed of ad agencies with close ties to the Liberals or by the greed of the Liberals themselves. It is also related to the issue of Quebec sovereignty. After the 1995 referendum, the federal government thought it could buy Quebeckers with a program aimed at increasing its visibility, but that effort failed, as I mentioned earlier.

Why was the government able to do such a thing? Because it had money, which brings us back to the fiscal imbalance. If the federal government and the federal Liberals acted responsibly with regard to the fiscal imbalance, they would not have these huge surpluses and they would not have been able to hide from the public, from the Auditor General and from Parliament that, for many years, they funnelled millions of dollars out of the system. In Quebec and in most provinces, money is so tight that everybody knows exactly what is spent on health, education, culture and infrastructure.

Here, the need creates the means. First, someone has the idea. This was the case with Mr. Chrétien and no doubt with the people around him. So, for example, it was decided to set up a sponsorship program. No problem. The money is there, and there is a little secret fund. It is not a problem if they lose money, because there will be more and they can get as much as they want.

I recall that, since the Liberals have been in power, over $70 billion in unforeseen surpluses—come on—have gone in part to repay the debt, when it should have been used to enable the provinces to meet the needs of their people in health care, education, culture, the fight against poverty, highway or other infrastructures, public transit, and so on. But no, the government prefers to continue to have the provinces, especially Quebec, in a stranglehold. It uses the money to create new programs, but deviations continue.

I would not be surprised if there were also a scandal in the case of the firearms registry. Indeed, some facts have started to come out at the Gomery commission. We are totally in favour of such a program and we do not question its soundness. However, it is totally out of line that a program that was supposed to cost, according to what Martin Cauchon said in the House, $2 million a year, will end up costing almost $2 billion, and that it will have zero effectiveness, which is a record.

I received yet another letter from one of my constituents who has been trying for four and a half years to register his firearms. I was also told a story that I will relate as an anecdote to lighten up the atmosphere, since what is happening here, in Ottawa, is so serious. One of my constituents managed to register his Black & Decker as a firearm. That is how totally ineffective this program is.

I am convinced that some firms, particularly those which specialize in computer systems, have taken advantage of this ineffectiveness to suggest some gizmo or some other program. As I mentioned to you, certain facts came out at the Gomery commission. This $2 billion went into someone's pockets; it did not simply disappear.

The same happened with the $4 million or so national unity fund. At the time of the referendum, Option Canada's estimate was $4.6 million, if I remember correctly. But the Auditor General at the time was unable to find out how this $4.6 million was spent. He gave up, because there was insufficient documentation.

This kind of thing could not happen in Quebec, where there is a requirement and a desire to manage money properly. It could happen, however, should the federal government repeatedly show surpluses and manage to keep all the money it wants to cover its needs, invade other jurisdictions and implement programs like the one that led to the sponsorship scandal, with which we are taking issue.

All in all, everything that is coming out of the Gomery commission these days is a clear indication of how worn out this government is. We have known it for quite some time. The Bloc Québécois was denouncing it back in the late 1990s. Just think of Auberge Grand-Mère and other conflicts of interest we raised. The ethics commissioner at the time, who reported to the Prime Minister—imagine that—said there was no problem. We saw that coming. We can safely say that, as early as 1997, the Liberal government was already showing signs that it was at the end of its worn out rope. The wear and tear is even more obvious from the Gomery commission.

Once the trust has been set up, the only logical thing to do will be to call an election, so that these worn out Liberals can be sent back to the opposition. They are riddled with corruption and unable to put their party in order. They have become devoid of imagination and are unable to resolve the problems of the unemployed.

In this context, I encourage the House to adopt the motion put forward by the Bloc Québécois. I thank the opposition parties for supporting it.

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April 14th, 2005 / 5:20 p.m.

Ahuntsic Québec

Liberal

Eleni Bakopanos LiberalParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Social Development (Social Economy)

Mr. Speaker, I will repeat what I have said in another question to one of the Bloc members. The Prime Minister said time and again that if the Gomery commission that he has set up, or the special counsel whom he has appointed, conclude that sponsorship money was paid to the Liberal Party, that money will be repaid in full. I am surprised that the Bloc Québécois, which usually has respect for justice and for the procedures established by the Prime Minister, is looking at allegations made by people involved in another criminal process. I would like to quote what the Prime minister said on April 13, 2005 to journalists here outside this House:

Doing the right thing doesn't mean much when the right thing is easy to do. The true test of character is whether you do the right thing when it's difficult. I believe that Canadians look to their political leaders to take responsibility and to show character, and as Prime Minister, I accept my responsibility, and I am accountable. And I have taken the hard, the difficult decisions, and we need to hear Mr. Justice Gomery's conclusions. Establishing the Gomery commission has cost me and my party political support, but it was and remains the right thing to do, because it is needed to defend and protect the integrity of our political process.

And I would add “of our judicial process” as well. That matters a great deal more than the ambitions of any political leader, be it Stephen Harper, Gilles Duceppe or Jack Layton. I would like to know from the member if he will respect the judicial process or if he will accept Mr. Brault's allegations.

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5:20 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, to be responsible is also to be logical. When the Prime Minister terminated the sponsorship program, he did not wait for the completion of the Gomery commission. In fact, he set up the Gomery commission when he saw that there was a problem. He launched legal proceedings to recover the money and he fired Gagliano. We knew about it. I remember very clearly that we were in the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs—I was with my colleague, the member for La Pointe-de-l'Île—and we had requested that Mr. Gagliano, who had just been appointed ambassador to Denmark, appear before the committee. He came and we tried to ask questions related to the sponsorship scandal, which was starting to come out. We did not have the Auditor General's report, but we had information and we asked questions.

It is the Liberals, who talk about respecting the judicial process, who prevented us from asking questions of Gagliano. They covered him. When, later, they had to face the facts, which they could no longer deny because everybody knew about them, they brought him back. Why? To try and have him take the rap. That is the tactic of the Prime Minister, of the Liberals and of the government--to hope that somebody else will take the rap. We will never accept that.

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5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Eleni Bakopanos Liberal Ahuntsic, QC

Mr. Speaker, I just want to say that Mr. Gagliano was recalled by the Prime Minister. I would like to put my question again. Will the process that has been put in place and for which someone, namely the Prime Minister, has assumed responsibility be respected?

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5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, he did so because public opinion figured out that he was involved in the sponsorship scandal. This has nothing to do with the recall by the Prime Minister. He had to do it, the same way that he will have to establish a trust account; otherwise, he will lose his election. He is already losing it anyway.

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5:25 p.m.

Conservative

Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON

Mr. Speaker, justice should not just be done, it should be seen to be done. We have heard a lot of the former from the government over here and a lot about justice being done, but we have not heard anything from the government about justice being seen to be done, which is at the heart of this motion today.

We have sworn testimony, under penalty if it is perjured, establishing $2.2 million used to buy at least two federal elections in Quebec by the Liberal Party of Canada. A trust fund for this amount seems a reasonable thing in order for justice to be seen to be done while the Gomery inquiry continues. Would the hon. member care to comment on justice being seen to be done?

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5:25 p.m.

Bloc

Pierre Paquette Bloc Joliette, QC

Mr. Speaker, I fully support what the hon. member just said. Indeed, justice has to not only be done, but also be seen to be done.

I cited the example of Mr. Gagliano. Everyone knew, it was a matter of public knowledge, that he was involved in dealings where there appeared to be irregularities in the bookkeeping. That did not stop the government from appointing him as Canada's ambassador to Denmark. Only under the pressure of public opinion and opposition parties was Mr. Gagliano recalled.

I find it unfortunate that the government and the Prime Minister are not assuming their responsibilities and taking the initiative—that is what leadership is all about—to prove that they are being honest. Instead, they constantly have to be pushed and backed into a corner before they act.

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5:25 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)

It being 5:28 p.m., pursuant to order made earlier today, all questions necessary for disposal of the opposition motion shall be deemed put, and a recorded division deemed requested and deferred until Tuesday, April 19, 2005, at the expiry of the time provided for government orders.

It being 5:29 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

The House resumed from February 4 consideration of the motion that Bill C-265, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (exemption from taxation of 50% of United States social security payments to Canadian residents), be read the second time and referred to a committee.