Debates of May 3rd, 2005

Committees of the House

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the member for Churchill for her comments and for the support of the NDP on the budget. It will put more money, beyond the $9 billion I referred to earlier for public safety and national security issues, into the hands of the RCMP and the Canada Border Services Agency to deal with public safety issues. I want to clarify a couple of points that were made by the member for Churchill.

First, the commissioner of the RCMP appeared before the committee and stated very clearly that in the last five or six years the annual budget allocation for the RCMP has gone from $2 billion a year to $3 billion a year. There will be more in budget 2005. I wanted to clarify that point.

Second, when the commissioner of the RCMP appeared before the committee, he said that this was not about funding. He said very clearly that this was not about budget, that this was about redeploying resources to utilize them more effectively to fight terrorism and organized crime.

He also said very clearly at the committee that this does not result in a reduction in head count with the RCMP in the province of Quebec. He was very clear and categorical on that point. Finally, he was very clear and categorical that this decision was required for the safety and security of Canadians and Quebeckers.

How can we in Parliament become instant experts on law enforcement? We have many opportunities in Parliament to deal with the RCMP through the estimates, through the budget, through the input into the Speech from the Throne, into the very parts of the Criminal Code that we enact and which the RCMP enforces.

There are many, many ways in which parliamentarians can become engaged. In fact, they engaged very clearly when they enacted the RCMP Act. It is an act of Parliament which states that the commissioner deals with the operational decisions of the RCMP. On the closure of detachments in Quebec, notwithstanding that they served a useful purpose, they had to be consolidated. That is what the RCMP commissioner said was necessary.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, if the RCMP commissioner was given additional dollars because Parliament and the people of Canada felt there was a need to have additional RCMP officers in smaller detachments, I would be greatly surprised if he would turn that down. I would also be greatly surprised that he would not close those detachments if he saw that there was another risk somewhere else and he had to decide where he had to move those members.

The reality is, if there is a mandate given by Parliament and the government to ensure that there is representation in smaller areas of Canada, the commissioner would follow through, but we cannot give a mandate without putting the funding behind it.

There is no question there has been an increase in dollars. There is no question there has been an increase in need. There is no question there needs to be proper funding for the security services. The parliamentary secretary should think about the reality for a second. If Parliament and the government gave a mandate to maintain offices and detachments in smaller communities, and the commissioner turned that down, I would be shocked.

I am using my own riding as an example. I have gone door to door in communities. I have been told by people, “If we had a detachment, it would be a deterrent for crime. We want the RCMP here”.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I will try to encapsulate the deal with the devil the hon. member made. The fact is that in the two weeks preceding the deal that was made, the NDP socialists voted against the government on two occasions. It was only when the corrupt Liberals promised to pay them off in some way that they agreed to support the government.

Just because the NDP got paid off does not make the government any more honest. That fact has to come out. The NDP socialists have made a deal with a dishonest and corrupt Liberal government. One has to ask the question, does this speak to the integrity of the leader of the NDP and the members of the NDP caucus when they are willing to sell out their integrity, sell out their principles in order to climb into bed with a corrupt Liberal government?

I want to make it clear that the Conservative Party was prepared to work with the government. We supported it on two occasions. It was when the Liberals tried to renege once again on the offshore oil revenue plan with Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia that we became angry at the them. That would have been the second time they had reneged on the plan and Atlantic Canadians who relied on those resources did not deserve that dishonesty from the government.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, there is no question that nobody deserves the dishonesty that has come from the Liberal government.

The member himself said that the New Democratic Party voted against the budget before, and rightfully so, because it did not reflect areas of concern that we wanted addressed.

The member should tell the people of Canada that the NDP brokered a deal to put dollars back into the pockets of Canadians, to provide funding for education and for students' tuition, to provide for affordable housing. He should tell Canadians that the NDP is working on the Kyoto plan. He should tell Canadians that it was the NDP that brokered a deal for child care. He should tell Canadians that it was the NDP that worked out a deal to make sure the gas tax would get to the municipalities. He should be honest with Canadians and tell them that.

[Raymond Simard, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Deputy Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I move:

That the debate do now adjourn.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Deputy Speaker]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Deputy Speaker]

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Deputy Speaker]

Call in the members.

(The House divided on the motion, which was negatived on the following division:)

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

I declare the motion defeated.

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I believe the member for Calgary Centre-North came into the chamber after the question had been put and did vote.

[Jim Prentice, Conservative, Calgary North Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I was here throughout the vote. I was in my seat in the chamber before the bells had finished.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

We accept the member's comments.

Resuming debate, the hon. Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Mr. Speaker, for over 130 years the RCMP has been trusted with protecting the people of this country from coast to coast to coast. The hon. member's motion undermines the RCMP's ability to do its job, without changing the government's vital obligation to ensure the safety and security of Canadians. This contradiction is not acceptable.

I should remark and clarify, after the remarks by the hon. member for Brome—Missisquoi, for whom I have every respect, that the government will be voting no to this motion. My remarks today outline the government's position and are addressed to the opposition parties who at every stage have sought to obstruct the commissioner of the RCMP from doing his job.

Since the government must continue to protect Canadians, I urge hon. members to support the right and responsibility of Commissioner Zaccardelli and his senior executives to make policing decisions for the good of our country. They should vote no to this motion.

Let me say at the outset that there is no reduction of RCMP resources in Quebec by even one officer. They were reorganized to improve efficiency. This motion is asking the House to vote, not for improvement, but for a worsening of the position. They are asking us to vote for inefficiency. I urge members on both sides of the House to defeat the motion.

Before going any further let me underscore what is at stake in this motion. The RCMP under the RCMP Act has the authority to manage our national police service and direct resources where they are needed most. Subsection 5(1) of the RCMP Act clearly states that it is the commissioner of the RCMP, under the direction of the minister, who has the control and management of the force and all matters connected therewith.

This motion cuts to the very heart of this responsibility. It undermines the legislative foundation of our national police service.

In addition to challenging the legislated authority of the commissioner of the RCMP, the passage of this motion would have a detrimental impact on Canadians. There would be a serious impact on public safety and the ability of the RCMP to deal with current and emerging priorities in Quebec; namely, organized crime, terrorism and the protection of our shared border with the United States.

Hon. members who support the motion put at risk the ability of the RCMP to address these priorities and are jeopardizing not only the safety of Quebec and Quebecers, but of all Canadians.

We all know the rule of law. The rule of law dictates that a minister may never direct the RCMP as to the investigation of criminality. Yet this is not the limit of our long convention and practice in this country. It is the first word of a tradition that holds the police apart from the power and politics of the day.

It is true by statute the minister does have the authority to direct the commissioner on certain matters, generally understood to be matters of strategic policy, but never day to day operations. The minister might, for example, instruct the commissioner to prioritize matters of national security affecting our airports. The minister might instruct the commissioner to develop new measures against organized crime. In this, the minister would be within the law and, importantly, within the conventions and propriety that shaped a relationship between the minister and the commissioner.

It is expected that the minister should use this authority sparingly and exercise careful judgment and restraint, recognizing that the commissioner has the statutory responsibility to manage the force and is in the best position to determine how the force can effectively and efficiently conduct its police work and criminal investigations.

The commissioner is a policing professional and his recommendation should be given the highest consideration. If the minister directs the RCMP to focus on organized crime, which is a large part of the force's federal mandate in the province of Quebec, it is the commissioner who knows best how to achieve this mandate in operational terms.

The commissioner's role is that of the expert and more. A commissioner of the RCMP is a distinguished figure. His advice should not be trifled with. He inherits the great traditions of the storied past and his professionalism today is a prized possession, his attempt to live up to that great example. He gives the government his best advice and takes pride in his work.

The commissioner has explained to parliamentarians that these detachments should be closed. He has told us that keeping them open would make Quebec less safe. He has explained that he needs the officers elsewhere. He has explained that even if he had more money, he would still close those detachments to focus on his priorities, including terrorism and organized crime.

I heard some members reject this advice at committee, and it is completely unacceptable. Frankly, I am appalled that members would dismiss the commissioner's advice. It is irresponsible and the worst kind of interference, and it should be stopped right here and right now. The commissioner has a serious job and members should let him do his job.

I have heard hon. colleagues on this matter. “If we can't do this”, they say, “why are we here?” This is one of the questions of philosophy, so while I will not settle anyone's existential angst, as members well know there is a broad expanse open to parliamentarians on RCMP matters. Not least of these is the budget process and all the associated financial procedures of Parliament.

Members will recall the substantial increases made of late to the RCMP budget. In fact, the commissioner pointed out that the budget of the RCMP in the last four or five years had gone from $2 billion a year to $3 billion a year. Some of these increases include provisions for funding for the integrated border enforcement teams and the provision five years ago of funds to introduce an additional 100 members at the Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver airports. The funds voted by Parliament for the use of the force are diligently used, an important expression of the will of Parliament and parliamentarians. There is also the annual Report on Plans and Priorities, tabled in Parliament for the scrutiny of all members.

Members should also consider the legislative process. It should not be underrated in its impact upon the force. Parliamentarians make the very laws which it is the duty of the police force to enforce. In criminalizing certain behaviours, we make decisions of the utmost importance and of the greatest impact to those who uphold the law. When a law officer carries out his or her duties, he or she is an officer of the law, not of Parliament.

Parliament has a place of first importance in these matters, but not the place imagined by members opposite. We are all privileged to play on the parliamentary field. However, when it comes to the placement of detachments and their operational consequences, we stray from that field and go out of bounds. It is the worst kind of interference, and it should be stopped.

The professional advice of the force should be accepted and it is shocking to see it dismissed so readily out of hand. I will say it time and again until somebody listens. The commissioner said that reopening the detachments would make Quebec less safe. Officers will be taken from duties of greater importance. They will not come out of thin air. It is members opposite who must justify their position, not the government. If the wording of the motion said, “that this House now make Quebec less safe”, I wonder if my colleagues opposite would still support it.

That is exactly what any supporter of this motion will be saying. They will be saying, “Let us all join together and make Quebec less safe by ignoring the advice of the RCMP commissioner, by taking officers away from more important duties, stranding them in outposts in ridings X, Y and Z”. I expect them to say just that and in large numbers.

Since the Royal Canadian Mounted Police was established in Quebec in 1920, this police organization commonly known as “C” Division has always been professional, keeping up with the realities of its time. It has evolved in step with society while at the same time preserving its own culture and traditions.

Today, these police officers are recognized worldwide for their professionalism, integrity and respect for the right of every citizen to be different and equal.

In Quebec, the RCMP enforces the law in a strictly federal context. Its mandate is to prevent crime and protect Canadians at home and abroad. Its areas of activity include national security, organized crime, tobacco and alcohol smuggling, economic crimes, computer hacking, money laundering, and VIP protection, including for the Prime Minister and for foreign dignitaries.

Let me assure the House that the requirements of the RCMP in Quebec will continue to be reviewed to ensure that its federal enforcement mandate can be met. Let me underscore that the RCMP will honour all agreements and memoranda of understanding that are entered into with the Sûreté du Québec and its other partners. The RCMP will strategically pursue its efforts in all Quebec regions.

Finally, notwithstanding what is done today, the RCMP will continue to ensure that the people of Quebec and their communities are safe for the good of the province and the good of all Canadians.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is no surprise to anyone who has followed the history of the Liberal Party to see Liberals on both sides of an issue. We have been treated to the spectacle in the last couple of months of supporters of the former prime minister in the Liberal Party who have made accusations against supporters of the present Prime Minister. There are members of the federal Liberal Party who have picked a fight and have made accusations against the provincial Liberals.

I am absolutely fascinated by the parliamentary secretary's speech. He is now attacking members of his own party. For Heaven's sake, the member for Brome—Missisquoi is a member of the Liberal Party. He had his own cheering section about an hour ago on this.

This is a Liberal motion brought in by a Liberal member and seconded by a Liberal member. Now the parliamentary secretary is saying that the Liberals down at that part of the chamber are against it and the Liberals at the other end are for it. It is one thing to pick a fight with the McGuinty Liberals or to say what one wants about the Chrétien Liberals, but this is within the House of Commons itself. Which half of the Liberal Party are we supposed to be listening to and accepting?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that is the same member who talks about reforming democracy in Ottawa. I want to congratulate the member for Brome—Missisquoi on his work on this file. With respect, on this question, he is somewhat misguided and I said so very clearly.

I am sure that from time to time Conservative members of their caucus have disagreed on one point or the other. I believe it has happened in the history of the House and that is good. It is a healthy situation when members of this caucus can speak up and argue against a position of the government and when members on the government side can speak against the member's motion.

This is about what is best for Canada and for Quebec. The commissioner of the RCMP has stated categorically that this redeployment, which does not result in any diminution of the head count in the province of Quebec, will improve the safety and security of Quebeckers. Quebec will be able to develop a critical mass of officers rather than have small groups that are not so effective. They will be brought in to a coordinated unit.

I know the Conservatives are in bed with the separatists these days, but they do not even understand what goes on in the province of Quebec. They do not understand that the province of Quebec has the Sûreté du Québec. It is not the same as the member's province. I think the member opposite was a member of Mr. Mulroney's cabinet and he would know about a lot of things, some good and some not so good.

He obviously does not understand that the province of Quebec does not have contracted RCMP. The role of the RCMP is to focus on federal policing and the Sûreté du Québec is the police force on the ground. That is the position of the government, that is the position the RCMP commissioner has taken and that is the best position we could take for the safety and security of Quebeckers and Canadians.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I find it unnerving to hear the member opposite talk about democracy when clearly he just stated that we should not interfere with the commissioner of the RCMP. I feel democracy should never be confused with interference, but I respect the member opposite has that confusion and I am sure it will live long in his heart.

I would like to ask the member opposite two questions. No one in his or her right mind would believe that no security at the border is better than what they have proposed. We see the impact at the border crossings. In fact, in one report it was noted that 1,300 cars crossed the borders unnoticed. I would like to ask the member opposite one question on that. Could he guarantee that those cars were not full of drugs and illegal weapons?

The second thing is this. The member brags about $9 billion in public safety. The member should be aware that fire departments across the country need $500,000, a simple half a million dollars, not $9 billion, but the government has failed to provide firefighters with proper training in chemical, biological, radioactive and nuclear hazardous material strategies.

Maybe the member should stop with the rhetoric and let me know if he can guarantee that the cars were not full of guns and drugs, and what about protecting our firefighters?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I know the member from Cambridge is still somewhat of a rookie, but I am sure the voters of Cambridge will have a chance to reconsider their choice when they send a member here to Ottawa.

The firefighters are in Ottawa making their case. The comment about the fund is not a bad idea. In fact, a couple of years ago the government implemented the pension accrual rate for the firefighters. They always come forward with some very good suggestions and I am sure the government will look at them very seriously.

On the main point, there is a fallacy in his argument. In case the member does not realize it, the border is 8,000 kilometres long. We would not have RCMP officers at every few metres along the border because it is not their role. However, if we had a police officer of some description every few yards, which would be the logic of his argument taken to an extension, we would have police officers about every five or six yards along our border. That is a fallacy. That is the illogical extension of his argument and it makes absolutely no sense. The RCMP does a great job and it will continue to get the support of the government.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have this opportunity to speak to the motion to concur in the sixth report of the Standing Committee on Justice, Human, Rights, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness tabled in the House on April 13, 2005. It is important to draw to the attention of the House that the report reads as follows:

Your Committee draws to the attention of the House the fact that the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness and the Senior Management of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police have not taken into account the opinion expressed by the Committee in its Fourth Report but rather have continued the process of closing nine RCMP detachments in Quebec.

Your Committee recommends that the Minister and the RCMP put a stop to this personnel redeployment plan and reopen the detachments concerned.

I am pleased that the member brought forward this motion, but I was very surprised that the Liberals, aided by the NDP, would shut down this debate in the same way that they are trying to shut down the detachments in Quebec. As the justice critic for the Conservative Party, I found it interesting that the Liberals moved the motion to adjourn the debate just before I stood up. They did not want to give me the opportunity to speak to this motion. I found that very disappointing.

I would have expected it of the Liberal Party which may not understand the significance of the RCMP in rural areas in the prairie provinces especially, but I would have thought the NDP, coming from a rural populace background, would have understood the significance of the RCMP in our areas. It was shameful to see NDP members vote with the government to try to shut down this very important debate. The NDP members should examine the roots from which they came.

First, I would like to state that members of the Conservative Party, and I think all members of the House, are thankful for all of the men and the women of the RCMP who serve our communities across the country. They put their lives at risk in the service of others every day.

The recent tragedy in Mayerthorpe, Alberta was a poignant reminder of our duty as parliamentarians to give our men and women in uniform the very best support and resources. In that context I would like to make some brief remarks about the cuts that have been made over the past decade to the front lines of our law enforcement.

Before I get into those comments, I want to address the parliamentary secretary's comments in respect of section 5 of one of the acts, and about the commissioner being under the direction of the minister. I think that is a very troubling situation. There is not a clearcut distinction in our country between policing services and the political direction of the minister.

It has been recommended on numerous occasions that there be a division between the minister and the RCMP commissioner. The scenario is that the RCMP commissioner is actually a deputy minister of the Liberal government. Let us not talk about him simply as a police officer. We are talking about a deputy minister who carries out the political will of a government. In a free and democratic state like Canada, it is simply unacceptable that there is not an arm's length distance between the commissioner and the minister. That kind of problem in structure relates to all kinds of other problems.

A problem arises when the RCMP commissioner comes to the committee and says what he thinks is the best course of action in a given situation. We, as members of the committee do not know whether he is there as a deputy minister on behalf of the minister and is making a political pitch, or whether he is speaking on behalf of law enforcement officials. That is a significant problem with which we are faced. When the RCMP commissioner comes to us, we want to hear from him not as a political person under the direction of the minister, but as a law enforcement individual. That is a concern.

Quite frankly, I cannot give the commissioner's evidence the weight I would like to give it because of that very close relationship. The government needs to recognize that problem. Why it has not taken the steps to make that simple political disconnection between the minister and the commissioner I simply do not know.

That leads us into this scenario. During the past few months the justice committee has heard testimony about critical shortages of RCMP officers in Quebec and other parts of Canada. This is not just to do with Quebec. We heard exactly the same kind of concerns about Ontario. During my career in the provincial government in the Prairies, we heard the same kind of concerns in the province in which I served.

I have also received information from internal RCMP sources which indicates that staffing levels for the RCMP in a particular province, Manitoba, are falling to a critical level, particularly the highway patrol divisions.

In my own riding of Provencher, virtually most of Highway 1, which is the Trans-Canada Highway, was unpatrolled. It had no highway patrol division virtually from the city of Winnipeg until a few miles before the Ontario border. This is the pipeline of Canada in terms of transport trucks, in terms of drugs, in terms of guns, in terms of tourism and an RCMP highway patrol is not patrolling it. We raised concerns and finally that RCMP highway patrol detachment was reinstated, after the government had shut down that detachment. Other detachments are still shut down in Manitoba. It is quite disgraceful.

I was in British Columbia the other day meeting with the RCMP. They are overworked and underpaid. They are trying to do a very difficult job with very few resources. I do not know if members are aware of the shortage of RCMP officers in British Columbia. The RCMP essentially perform municipal duties in many municipalities, including one of the largest municipalities in Canada, Surrey. In British Columbia the RCMP is short over 400 officers.

How do we rectify this situation? About one-tenth of all RCMP officers are retiring every year. One-half of all RCMP officers are eligible for retirement. Think of those kinds of numbers. How do we close the gap in Surrey and other places in British Columbia, in Manitoba, in Quebec? How do we close that gap when we are only training 1,000 RCMP officers a year? We cannot keep up to the rate of retirement and other officers who are leaving because the government back in 1998 decided to shut down the only training officers' depot in Canada. Since then, all RCMP officers have been under stress.

The RCMP is undermanned and is simply looking for the resources that it is never going to get from the government, in terms of front line police officers. Not just in Quebec, but across the country in areas like mine where we rely on RCMP officers, staffing levels are falling to a critical level.

That sets the background.

A committee motion two months ago summoned the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, the commissioner of the RCMP and the commanding officer of “C” Division to appear before it to explain why they had ignored the committee's previous order to stay the closure of nine RCMP detachments in Quebec.

I may not know everything about the province of Quebec, but I do know the crucial role the RCMP plays in patrolling the border. When the parliamentary secretary says that is not the role of the RCMP, I can tell the House that our border guards and customs officials do not have the jurisdiction because they only have the jurisdiction to arrest people who cross the border within a few hundred feet of their actual booth at the border crossing. They have to rely on the RCMP. If a car goes flying across the border, the border officials cannot stop the offender. They have to call the RCMP.

The news is that there are no RCMP officers in a riding like mine. Volunteer firefighters direct traffic at major traffic accidents on major highways in southern Manitoba because we do not have any RCMP officers. They cannot keep up to the work.

I was speaking to an individual in Richer, Manitoba who had a very big concern about a dangerous driver, very drunk, tearing up the town. They could not get an RCMP officer to the town in under three hours. They called and they called and they called. When the RCMP officer came, he said, “The problem is this weekend in our entire detachment we have two people on duty”.

There were two people on duty. One had to execute an arrest warrant for a violent criminal and therefore the other one had to attend with him. We do not want reoccurrences of Mayerthorpe. We want our officers properly protected, but there were two individuals in that entire area to take care of all these problems. After three hours the officer appeared but of course the culprit was long gone.

We have to ask the commissioner, who in effect is a deputy minister of the government, what is happening. I remember in 1998 when the RCMP said to me in my office, “We are going to reconsolidate”. They told me that the impact would be that there would be fewer people in administration and more people out on the streets. This is the load of garbage that is being sold to the people of Quebec today and it is wrong. It is not true. The government should be ashamed of itself.

What happened in Manitoba was that there were fewer police officers on the street. Why did that happen? Interestingly, with all the talk about the Gomery commission these days, some other facts unrelated to the sponsorship scandal itself have come to light during the testimony which actually shed some light on this particular issue.

On December 15, 2004, Mr. Dawson Hovey, who was in charge of the 1996 program review process, stated that he was required to reduce the RCMP budget by 10%. What did that mean? This is testimony that a government official gave to the commission. What did the 10% reduction mean? It involved a budget reduction of about $173 million and the deletion of 2,200 RCMP positions. What was motivating the RCMP to consolidate? I do not think anyone in the House actually believes it was to create efficiencies to get more police officers out on the street.

We have the testimony of Mr. Hovey, who was in charge of the program review process. He knew exactly what was going on. This minister also knew exactly what was going on when they came to my office back in 1998 and said, “We are going to consolidate to have fewer administrative positions and more police officers on the street”. The truth of the matter was that they were cutting 2,200 police positions. That is the truth of the matter.

My colleagues from Quebec are concerned about this issue and well they should be. That is why we asked the commissioner and the minister to come to the committee and explain some of these facts. Why was this happening? Was the experience in Manitoba simply going to be repeated in Quebec, where individuals fly across that border in their cars and the border patrol cannot stop them because they do not have the powers of arrest? Even if the border patrol had these powers of arrest, this government will not provide its members with proper training and sidearms to stop dangerous offenders coming into our country. They have to phone the RCMP. And where are the RCMP officers? They are dozens and dozens if not hundreds of kilometres away from the place of the incident.

Front line officers are telling us that they are seeing their numbers decrease and their resources being stretched, yet when the committee summoned Commissioner Zaccardelli to explain why he ignored the direction of the committee, the commissioner denied--

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

It is my duty to interrupt the proceedings at this time and put forthwith the question on the motion now before the House, which is that this question be now put.

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?