Debates of May 30th, 2005

Budget Implementation Act, 2005

[Paul MacKlin, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's private member's bill to repeal the disallowance power has been debated in the House. Members of the Liberal Party, the NDP and the Bloc all rejected his proposal.

The hon. member's procedure, timing and sense of priorities all attracted wide-based criticism. The hon. member attempted to spark a debate about the same subject, but on hypothetical terms, by his subsequent question to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

The hon. member would like the House to debate the status of the power and hypothetical scenarios that might give rise to the consideration of its invocation perhaps by some governments in some distant future.

The Minister of Justice, quite appropriately in my view and I suspect in the view of many on all sides of the House, replied that he would not speculate on such a hypothetical question. It was not necessary for the minister to say more, but since the hon. member has asked for a further explanation, let me say that the subject he is raising has no relevance to current realities. In addition, anything said in the abstract on a controversial subject on a hypothetical basis when nothing requires that anything be said really serves no useful purpose. The minister quite rightly refused to be drawn into this hypothetical debate.

The hon. member favours the repeal of the disallowance power and is intent on furthering his one member crusade to raise the issue as worthy of priority consideration by the House and all provincial assemblies for constitutional amendment. The fact is it is simply not on anyone's radar screen and the government, like members of the other parties who have spoken to the hon. member's private member's bill, has no intention of changing that.

When the hon. member's motion for the repeal of the constitutional disallowance and reservation powers came forward for discussion in February, there were many reasons provided by members of three parties in the House why this was neither an appropriate process nor an appropriate time for this discussion.

Let me begin by very briefly repeating that there is no reason for these constitutional provisions to be a pressing concern or priority for anyone in the federal or provincial governments and in fact, they are not.

The concern expressed by the hon. member is more academic and hypothetical than real. Certainly, to my knowledge at least, it is not a concern seen by anyone as pressing in any way. There is no apparent merit in selecting these provisions in isolation as a new unilateral federal constitutional reform initiative seeking to engage, as it must and after the fact, all the provinces.

The Liberals, the Bloc and the NDP all expressed agreement that this is not the way to go about making constitutional amendments. That shared view was independently arrived at and expressed. It is founded on the wisdom of experience and practicality and the need to focus on real issues and priorities.

In addition, in my view the hon. member's concerns behind this motion and his question to the Minister of Justice regarding the disallowance power focused far too much on the formal text rather than the constitutional practice thereunder.

The hypothetical concerns raised by the hon. member can be raised in theory regarding many written provisions of our Constitution, or any constitution for that matter. Constitutions by their nature consist of written laws and constitutional conventions supplemented by unwritten practices and understandings of a political nature.

If I may use a perhaps overused cliché, the hon. member's concerns reflected in this question lose sight of the forest for the trees. Like the Minister of Justice, I do not propose entering that forest when there is only a hypothetical interest in its exploration.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is ironic to be lectured on constitutional conventions by a member of a government that has just broken one of our most fundamental constitutional conventions by governing unconstitutionally after it had lost several confidence motions in the House until it could find a way of buying or bribing its way back into power.

I will simply point out that this is far from being a matter that is irrelevant, unlike for example, Bill C-9, which we were discussing today which will change the name of a department, or the debate many engaged in this morning over whether or not the House of Commons should have a symbol. Those are truly irrelevant debates.

We will just use Liberal Party policy as opposed to the others who have spoken in favour of getting rid of the power of disallowance. Pierre Trudeau advocated this in the 1960s. In 1972 in the Victoria charter he actually brought forward a constitutional amendment to get rid of the disallowance power. He brought it back again in 1978 in the constitutional amendment bill. It was once again brought forward in the Charlottetown accord, which members from many parties, including the Liberals and the NDP voted in favour of. The Bloc did not exist then.

This is a matter of national consensus, but for some reason the minister has decided to reverse, as I say, half a century of consensus in this country.

[Paul MacKlin, Liberal, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the disallowance issues raised by the hon. member continue to be of neither practical nor widespread concern. It is my understanding that following Confederation, statutes of the provinces were originally considered for disallowance if they were either unwise or unjust, although the laws were rarely disallowed on that basis.

If they were unconstitutional, and this was the most common ground for disallowance, it was often combined with other grounds such as clashing with current federal legislation or affecting the interests of the Dominion generally.

Historically, laws might also be disallowed if they conflicted with imperial treaties or policy. Despite this broad overview, scholars have suggested that it is not possible to define clearly the principles that were applied in disallowing legislation after Confederation.

Despite the arguments of the hon. member, there would be no purpose served in debating such principles hypothetically for modern times, considering that the power has not been exercised at all for more than 60 years.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, on February 25 I rose in this House to express my dissatisfaction, and not only mine but of many people, with the paltry funds allocated to post-secondary education in the Liberal's original budget introduced for 2005-06. This represented an astonishing betrayal of a promise made by the Prime Minister during the last federal election.

Specifically, Canadians will remember that during the great Canadian job interview held with the Liberal leader and the NDP leader in St. John's, Newfoundland, the Prime Minister, before a national audience, promised to restore $8 billion to core funding for post-secondary education in Canada.

The failure to make even a modest down payment, even a small installment, toward that promised $8 billion was one of the major reasons why the New Democratic Party was not able to support the Liberal's original budget. The failure to deliver on even a portion of that promised $8 billion, and no one expected it would be delivered in full but at least a significant portion, left education core funding in this country below the level it was at in 1995.

It was not surprising, therefore, that students all across this country were infuriated. This occurred nowhere more so than in Nova Scotia, where 37,000 students face almost $1,800 above the national average for tuition fees. This is the highest by far in Canada.

A few weeks in politics can make quite a difference. That brings me to the better balanced NDP education budget measures negotiated on behalf of many, not just education stakeholders in the narrow sense but Canadians who care about the future of this country and understand the importance of post-secondary education.

We have here amendments to the Liberal's budget as set out in Bill C-48 that would provide for an investment of $1.5 billion for post-secondary education and training. It is true that $1.5 billion does not exactly come close to the $8 billion promised, but at least it is a start and can begin to repair the damage from those massive unilateral cuts.

Let me say what it means for Nova Scotia alone. It means a minimum of $22.5 million in two successive budget years. The Nova Scotia legislature, led by the NDP official opposition leader Darrell Dexter, deserves a great deal of credit. All the parties deserve credit for having come together and passing a bill that specifically dedicated the money that will flow from Bill C-48 to improve training opportunities, provide needs based grants and reduce tuition fees for Nova Scotia students.

Over the last 11 months since I have had the privilege of being the post-secondary education critic for the NDP, I have met with countless numbers of students, faculty, support staff and administrators. They have all furnished examples of the serious crises they face in regard to the education system. Their examples differ, but the source of their problems is the same, namely the chronic underfunding since 1993 by the federal government in post-secondary education.

I hope we will hear from the government's spokesperson today that this government will commit to a pan-Canadian post-secondary education act, where we can establish objectives--

[The Deputy Speaker]

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate my colleague's enormous interest in post-secondary education. She is a great supporter of post-secondary education, but so is the Government of Canada. It provides over $5 billion each year for research support to institutions, student grants, and loans and tax measures. I could easily increase that by several billion dollars if I extended the range of the expression “post-secondary education”.

The federal government supports post-secondary education by many means. For instance, the Canada social transfer is a federal block transfer to provinces and territories in support of post-secondary education, social assistance and social services, including early childhood development, and early learning and child care. The Canada social transfer is made up of both cash transfer and a tax transfer component, and is allocated on a per capita basis to ensure equal support for all Canadians regardless of their province or territory.

Further, the government, as the member mentioned and I greatly appreciate her support, has introduced Bill C-48 aimed at improving the standard of living for Canadians by promoting a highly skilled workforce in an efficient and effective labour market. The new bill would augment the budget bill to better reflect the priorities of Canadians.

Nothing better exemplifies these priorities than this bill's emphasis on post-secondary education. Bill C-48 would maintain the excellence of our post-secondary education system and would build on it to maximize learning opportunities for all Canadians. The emphasis on learning contained in this legislation would create the conditions for continued economic expansion and increased prosperity. It would also demonstrate our collective determination to ensure all Canadians could participate in building our future.

Bill C-48 commits the government to invest, as the member said, $1.5 billion over the next two years, if surplus funds become available. These additional funds would be used for initiatives which will assist students and strengthen our colleges and universities. Canada's social transfer cash levels are currently set in legislation up to 2007-08 and planned levels were established in budgets 2003 and 2004, all the way up to the year 2010-11, providing a predictable, sustainable and growing funding framework for the provinces and territories.

Canada's social cash transfer will rise from $8.2 billion in 2005-06 to $9.35 billion in 2009-10. This translates into transfer increases of more than 3% annually over that period. In addition, further support is provided through the underlying tax transfer which grows in line with the economy.

The Government of Canada will work with all the partners, including the provinces and stakeholders, to promote post-secondary education in Canada. The Government of Canada respects provincial and territorial jurisdiction. We welcome the opportunity to work effectively with our provincial partners; however, and I know my colleague mentioned the high tuition rates, that is an area under provincial jurisdiction. I personally wish we could influence the provinces more than we can. I know that she feels it more than many of us here because her province of Nova Scotia has the highest tuition rates in the country.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the government member for his comments. I am aware that he is very concerned and committed in trying to repair the damage and to do better with respect to the level of education and core funding.

I know in particular that the member has had a good deal to do with pressing the government to deliver on increased research funds. That has been a very good beginning and in fact one that is seen by education stakeholders as something of a model. I think there are some challenges in it, particularly for smaller regions and smaller institutions but, nevertheless, if the government could begin to do for post-secondary education generally what it has done for research, we would actually begin to get back on the rails.

I am disappointed that the member has not spoken about what a disaster it is for us to continue with a block transfer. We know that education was trumped again and again by urgent acute health care needs when we had a combined health and social transfer. We need to break it down to a single--

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. parliamentary secretary.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am glad that in the health transfer now we have criteria on which the provinces must report. We do not just transfer the funds to them. I would like to see similar criteria in the post-secondary areas, as I believe my colleague knows.

The Canada student loans program though, with all its problems, supports 350,000 students across the country with $1.6 billion every single year. The Canada millennium scholarships total $289 million a year. The Canada study grants totalled $75 million for 55,000 students. The Canada learning bond for very low income children born after January 1, 2004 is reaching out to low income families, so that their kids can stay in higher education. The Canada education savings grant program has paid out $2 billion since 1998 and was made stronger this year for middle income families.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The motion to adjourn the House is now deemed to have been adopted. Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a.m. pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 6:52 p.m.)