Debates of May 9th, 2005

Department of Human Resources and Skills Development Act

[Marcel Gagnon, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak on this bill. In fact, I am doubly pleased, since this is probably one of the last speeches I will make in the House. If the rumours prove to be true, there could be an election very soon. It is time for me to throw in the towel. I will be moving on and going home after 25 years of relatively active political life.

In all those years as a member of this House, I have had the opportunity to defend various files. Among others, the one that affected me most and into which I threw all my time and energy, the one of which I am most proud, is the guaranteed income supplement for seniors.

The House will recall that, when we took on this issue affecting the poorest seniors in Canada and Quebec, most had been deprived of the guaranteed income supplement to which they were entitled. The Bloc Québécois travelled around Quebec meeting with seniors and showing them the extent to which they had been deprived of an essential income. I met people with all kinds of conditions and I was surprised that the government had so little concern for the most vulnerable members of our society.

When we talk about economically disadvantaged people, we often refer to poverty and to children living in poverty. Indeed, it is sad to see a child who is suffering from poverty because his or her parents are poor. And these parents are often poor because, again, the government is not fulfilling its duties.

Let us take, for example, the employment insurance account. Instead of paying benefits to workers who lose their jobs, the government has used these funds to reduce its debt. Therefore, it is not surprising to see children living in poverty, because the money is not going to families.

When I see young people living in poverty, it affects me. But I keep thinking that there is always hope and love. Some change could occur. Some miracle could happen.

However, when a person has worked for society throughout his life, has raised six, seven or eight children, and is deprived of his due in the twilight of his life, it is a rather painful thing to see. I remember the day when the hon. member for Sherbrooke and I were supposed to meet someone. We were not able to do it, because that person was dying. However, we met the family and found out that, after raising a family of eight children, that woman, who was 88, had spent her senior years with an annual income of $6,000, and when she died, the government collected $90,000 that was owed.

When we see such things, we can only fight tooth and nail for these people. I can say that we met with some success. The number of elderly who fall through the cracks is still too high, but it has diminished significantly. The government has improved its way of informing the elderly. However, a lot remains to be done.

I would have liked to leave politics only after managing to convince the government that it must pay retroactively the people that it has—I will not use the term “robbed”, because it is too harsh, although I really wonder if it is—fooled and misled. Indeed, the government did not do all it could to locate these people, simply because they are economically disadvantaged.

We often meet elderly people who do not have a good education, and there are even well-educated people who, following some disease or a stroke—I, along with all the hon. members who helped me with this issue, met some—are often no longer able to get the information they need. In my view, if we make it complicated to get the information, we are guilty, if not of robbing people, of acting very irresponsibly towards society's oldest members.

This matter is not closed. Yet, I wish, among other things, that the government would continue to manage the country for some time, if only perhaps to close this matter and to pass this legislation now before the House, which would force the government to pay retroactively the people whom it has swindled.

Instead of solving these problems, what does the government do? It introduces legislation like this. The federal government takes pleasure in complicating what could be simple. Why simplify things when it is so simple to complicate them? We need to get closer to the people, to provide better service, to give more information, not to create another department that will add 14,000 more public servants. And why? To spend money within the government, to expand the whole thing, to increase the size of this government instead of providing services to those waiting for them.

The seniors' issue is somewhat a part of this. Instead of adding 14,000 public servants, the government could perhaps have taken the billion dollars and more that this will cost to pay out the $3 billion retroactively to seniors who are entitled to receive it. In the last six years, the federal government has increased the number of publics servants by 49,000. Here, it wants to add 14,000 more, which means almost 60,000 public servants. The total payroll is about $9 billion a year. Yet, it would be so simple to respect jurisdictions. This bill infringes on provincial jurisdictions. I am helpless before a government that really does not want to improve things.

If you can get your hands on the article in La Presse from three weeks ago, you should read it. In it, Mr. Castonguay, the former Quebec health minister and a Liberal federalist, was saying how much the federal government has missed the mark since the 1960s. In trying to get closer to Quebec, it has pushed it further away. It would have been so easy just to respect Quebec and its jurisdictions. Just read the piece by Mr. Castonguay, a Liberal federalist, in which he explains how badly you have been missing the mark since the 1960s. You are still missing the mark.

I had the opportunity to serve as an MNA in Quebec City and I worked with Mr. Parizeau, a finance minister recognized throughout Canada. He was a smart man. One day, he was to give a speech in my riding at a meeting of the chamber of commerce. Since I was unable to attend, my wife agreed to go and sit at the head table with Mr. Parizeau. This intimidated her immensely. She said she was not really sure what to do, that she was shy. I told her it was simple, all she had to do was ask a few questions and let him take it from there. I assured her the meal would go very well and that she would learn a great deal.

At one point during the evening she said to Mr. Parizeau, it must not be easy to run a country. Mr. Parizeau said he was surprised to hear a mother say that, because it is mothers who run the country. They are the ones who, in the past, took the household income and divvied it up according to each member's responsibilities and plans. It is simple, you have your budget and you allot a certain amount for education, leisure, food and housing. That is how a country should be run. We should go back to the basics and use common sense.

If the federal government had done that, then they might not have increased the number of public servants by 59,000 over the past six years only to duplicate provincial jurisdictions and services. Health, education and municipalities are provincial responsibilities. According to Mr. Parizeau, it is simple and very logical. We do not even need any experts. Out of its little budget, Quebec needs x amount of billions of dollars for the health system to work. The same goes for Quebec and the provinces who need a certain number of billions of dollars for education and for every area of need.

However, it currently costs a fortune in administration alone. Money is wasted because we have too much administration.

One need look no further than the sponsorship scandal. As René Lévesque would say, it is not one specific scandal but an atmosphere of scandal, and shameless waste everywhere despite crying needs.

Seniors did not need this legislation; they merely needed to be listened to. I feel we owe it to them to admit they have been fleeced, to have the honesty to admit that they were not given the information they needed and that steps were not taken to see that they could get that information.

One of the parish priests in my riding said that if it is not dishonest, it is at the very least totally irresponsible. That money is not ours. It belongs to the poorest members of society, particularly older women. They generally live longer than men, with a life expectancy of 83 years at present. So they are the ones who suffer the most from poverty and yet they are the ones who have raised families and made our society what it is today. This is completely irresponsible and immoral.

It would be appropriate to add some more public servants rather than putting the money into the big government machinery. I do not see the advantage of making that machinery still bigger and still more complicated, when there are responsibilities in our system that need to be divided. The system is not that badly designed, if there were the will to apply it properly.

We are not in favour of this bill, of course, because it is unnecessary and because it encroaches onto provincial jurisdiction. I would have liked to have felt that my time in politics had enabled me to make things better. If there is one area in which I can say that I have some satisfaction with what we have accomplished together, it is the seniors file. It would be so easy to make this country work better. I know, however, that we will not achieve that goal.

I can say, however, that this was my primary objective when I entered politics, even though I would have preferred it did not have to be done, with the federal government deciding to govern properly.

Perhaps Quebec need not become sovereign, but we can see from Castonguay and many others that the only way out with everything we want—with our money, which means not having to beg, and no more federal scandals—is through Quebec's sovereignty.

Having worked with various governments, I am convinced that Quebec would do a better job if it could govern itself. We would not have to encroach on anyone's jurisdiction. Quebec would be perfectly capable of administering itself. Quebec is promised a great future. René Lévesque once said of Quebeckers that they are something of a great people. I can assure the hon. members that Quebeckers will become a great people with a wonderful, beautiful country before my days are over.

I worked with René Lévesque, as well as with Gérald Godin, Pauline Julien, Camille Laurin. I have had the pleasure, since the 1960s, of working with the people, including Jacques Parizeau and others, who made up the “équipe du tonnerre” in those days. There was Jean Lesage, and his master of our own house theme. That was a truly extraordinary team.

Then came Lévesque's team, preceded by another team advocating sovereignty-association, or rather independence. Then there were the days of sovereignty-association with René Lévesque. I am convinced that there will soon be another referendum. You have amply proven to us to what extent you have trampled our rights. In 1995, you made us lose not only hope but also our name, our reputation. You—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

I remind the hon. member that he must address his remarks to the Chair.

[Marcel Gagnon, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I will be pleased to do so, Mr. Speaker.

Because of the sponsorship scandal, we lost much more than a referendum. We also lost our reputation in the eyes of many Canadians. They say this is normal, this is the way people do politics in Quebec. But that is not true. If there is one place where measures are being taken to clean up politics, it is Quebec.

Mr. Lévesque worked tirelessly on this issue and Quebeckers are able to be involved in politics, while respecting everyone's interests. However, when money is taken to voluntarily buy people's consciences, as was done, this is confirmation to us that the only way that Quebec can really be its own master in the future is by achieving sovereignty. As far as I am concerned, this should happen as soon as possible, and I will be very pleased to participate in the process.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development]

Mr. Speaker, I listened very carefully to what my colleague had to say and perhaps I should remind people watching this on television or perhaps some of the people in the gallery what the topic is. Bill C-23 would officially establish the new Department of Human Resources and Skills Development Canada. It is one of two departments that would replace the old, huge federal department of HRDC. The other side of this legislation is Bill C-22 which would set up the new Department of Social Development Canada.

The idea is to make the federal system more effective by delivering, for example, employment insurance and training programs by one designated department, HRSD. Other programs, some of which were mentioned by my colleague, would be delivered by Social Development Canada. For example, the Canada pension plan and the child care program would be delivered by Social Development Canada. The purpose is to make the federal government more effective and more efficient.

I can well understand that my colleague, who addressed this very little, has no real interest in the federal government. He talked about the waste of money. One of the purposes of the bill is to take a large, rambling department and make it more effective. In the old department there were five different privacy codes. If a person applied for something in one part of the department, it required different privacy information than in other parts. That has been changed now to one privacy code, which the Privacy Commissioner has commended.

My colleague mentioned the delivery of services to the elderly. Instead of the Canada pension plan being all mixed in with employment insurance, it would be on its own delivering pensions, along with the associated programs, such as the disability programs. As well, the new seniors' secretariat will be there and it will be more effective.

I know my colleague may not be interested in this, but the purpose of the bill is to make the federal government more effective and less expensive, not the other way around.

The other thing about this which puzzles me when I hear my colleague talk is that this is not something that the government has developed and brought out of thin air. This was unanimously recommended by a standing committee of this House and was unanimously approved by this House, including the Bloc, recommending that the old Department of HRDC be divided in some appropriate fashion. That is what, for the past many months, we have been debating here.

The Bloc members were onside. Like us, they felt that it would be better. Not just thinking now of nationalism but thinking of the clients, the people of Canada with whom we deal, it would be more effective for the people of Canada, people in need, people on employment insurance and people with disabilities, to set up this new department so that it would be more effective. I am puzzled. Why has the Bloc changed its mind on this having supported the original suggestion that the former department be divided? When did they change their minds?

[Marcel Gagnon, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am still puzzled. We have just seen an example. It looks like we always need a bigger machine to provide services. If we only respected the areas of jurisdiction, we would not have to increase the number of public servants. It is quite simple.

It has been suggested that an independent EI fund be created. Employment insurance does not concern you, except for regulations. Again, the federal government is not putting any money into the EI fund, but it is taking money out of it. Do not tell me that it is because we lack services that we are not giving EI benefits to a worker who loses his job. About 39% of the workers who contribute to employment insurance can expect to receive benefits if they are let go. The federal government took the rest of the money. What will an extra 14,000 public servants do? There is simply no will to provide services to the workers who qualify for employment insurance.

Why was there no new department for seniors? There were 270,000 seniors who were not receiving the guaranteed income supplement. That is now down to 100,000 people. No new department was created. The process was rationalized, forms were simplified and proper information was given. Instead of making things more complicated, they simplified them. They have shown a willingness to provide the necessary services. With 60,000 more public servants in the last five years and an increase of more than $9 billion in salaries for the Government of Canada, services are getting worse, not better.

[Jerry Pickard, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, as my hon. colleague pointed out a few moments ago, there is a need for reorganization, for setting new structures and for bringing in efficiencies in all government departments. The federal government has been striving for a very long time to deliver services to Canadians in as efficient a way as possible.

As my colleague pointed out, every party in the House, the Bloc, the Conservatives, the NDP, and the Liberals, unanimously supported in committee the restructuring and reorganization of that department. Regardless of how one looks upon the situation the member is presenting this morning, it is very clear that the movement was toward efficiencies and changing some of the archaic means by which things are done. Often as departments expand, we need to look at better efficiencies.

I understand from talking with my colleague that one of the panel groups that has been suggested in employment insurance is now a three person group. My colleague across the way was talking about expanding it to a 17 member group. Going from 3 to 17 is a loss in efficiency. I can understand that the federal government looks at the operations in a much more important way, making efficiencies, downsizing where possible and making sure that appropriate facilities are delivered to people.

I am going to ask exactly the same question that my colleague asked. When did the member's party change its mind and for what reason? How can it justify walking away from an agreement it made with all the other parties in the House?

[Marcel Gagnon, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Madam Speaker, we never changed our mind. In fact, we have always thought that the way the federal government works is bad for Quebec. It grabs more and more money, but never seems able to give it back.

Indeed, this weekend, the member for St. Hyacinthe said that the fiscal balance should not occur by pieces; it should occur globally. The federal government must give back to the provinces what is rightfully theirs. The Liberals have complicated things. Do they believe that if there was an independent employment insurance fund, it would be more complicated? It would be less complicated. They would not be able to take money from the fund instead of providing benefits to workers.

When I toured Quebec about the guaranteed income supplement, I received a nice letter from Jane Stewart, who was the minister at the time. She wrote me that she had given all she could, that she had improved the information in order to be able to give more, that she had given us all that we had asked for, but that there was only one thing that she could not give us: it was retroactivity.

Do we need a department to offer retroactivity? No, we need honesty. All they have to do is admit that that money is not theirs. It is not by establishing a department, by making the administration bigger, that we will have money to offer retroactivity. We do not need a department to offer retroactivity. And Mrs. Stewart's letter proves it. It is the same thing with employment insurance.

Since my time is up, I will conclude by saying that, in terms of employment insurance, it is not true that we need a department to improve the system; we only need to take it out of the hands of the Liberals.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Madam Speaker, I greatly appreciate this opportunity to speak to the legislation to establish the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development. I am proud to express my support for this legislation which will help the government act on its vision for a strong Canada with a thriving 21st century economy.

Our goal is to see opportunities available to every citizen who wants to learn and to develop the skills and flexibility so essential for success in our new economy. This is a vision in which no one is left out or left behind as a result of particular challenges they may face. We value the talents and abilities of all our citizens and want to support Canadians in realizing their potential, whatever their age or employment situation.

We see this commitment reflected in the legislation which is clearly articulated particularly by the mandate of the minister of HRSD and the new department. This mandate relates to improving the standard of living and the quality of life of all Canadians by promoting a highly skilled and mobile workforce and an efficient and inclusive labour market.

In my remarks today I will be pleased to demonstrate for hon. members how the new department directly supports this goal.

One way is through the active measures under the employment insurance program which HRSD delivers in partnership with the provinces and territories and community organizations across the country. In 2003-04 the department assisted close to 700,000 Canadians through EI program components, such as the employment assistance services, job creation partnership, and self-employment assistance. By helping Canadians to prepare for, find and keep jobs, these EI programs are enabling our citizens to achieve the personal security and well-being that results from fulfilling, sustainable employment.

The comprehensive EI program supports Canadians' well-being in other ways. HRSD delivers employment insurance to Canadians who are temporarily unemployed to help them bridge the period between jobs. In addition, the maternity and parental benefits under the EI program make it easier for parents to concentrate on the health and well-being of their baby.

The employment insurance compassionate care benefit is also delivered by employees of the department. By providing six weeks of EI benefits, this measure helps to ease the stress faced by Canadians who must choose between their jobs and caring for a family member who is gravely ill.

Many members of the House will also be familiar with the achievements of the department's youth employment strategy. This strategy, which helps young people between 15 and 30 obtain valuable work experience, is active on many fronts in communities across this country, including my riding of Davenport.

I spoke earlier of the government's commitment to assisting Canadians who encounter obstacles to obtaining employment. The youth employment strategy has programs specifically designed to assist young people who are experiencing particular difficulties in entering the labour market so that they can forge a brighter, productive future.

One of the obstacles many young people face today is their lack of literacy skills. The department is also at work on this important front, in partnership with the provinces, territories, business, labour, educational institutions and literacy organizations.

The government recognizes the crucial role of literacy skills as the foundation for all learning and for participation in our knowledge based economy and society. Literacy skills are linked to work skills, health and self-esteem. These skills play a key role in ensuring that Canada continues to be productive, competitive and economically secure.

Through its national literacy secretariat, HRSD invests close to $30 million in literacy partnerships each year. The goal of these partnerships is to find innovative ways of improving the literacy skills of Canadians of all ages in the home, in the workplace and in the community.

Committed partnerships are the essence of the department's programs. It is by working with and through a host of partners, including the provincial and territorial governments, business, labour unions, aboriginal organizations, training institutions, financial institutions and sector councils, that the department achieves its objectives.

On that note, I would like to emphasize that the legislation articulates that the new department will continue to work within its jurisdiction, and operate as it has always done with other governments. Indeed, the department has a long history of cooperation with the provincial and territorial governments as evidenced by the labour market development agreements in place across the country.

Continuing this cooperation, the department will be working closely with its provincial and territorial partners to find new ways of enhancing the access and affordability of post-secondary education. We want to ensure that all Canadians can pursue learning opportunities throughout their lives.

Creating a culture of lifelong learning is the precondition for building a quality workforce for the new economy. Starting in the earliest years, we must give Canadians access to opportunities to develop their skills and fulfill their potential as individuals.

For example, to enable more parents to start saving early for their children's post-secondary education, the department is working to improve low income families' uptake of registered education savings plans and Canada education savings grants. These efforts include the innovative Canada learning bond and enhancements to the Canada education savings grants to kick-start savings by low income and middle income parents. HRSD will also be working with provincial and territorial partners to improve assistance to students with disabilities and students from low income families, to help them overcome barriers they face in accessing post-secondary education.

As the House is aware, most new jobs are demanding more education and higher levels of skills than ever before. However, 42% of working age Canadians already in the workforce lack the literacy and other essential skills to meet these requirements. In order for Canada to prosper and stay competitive in the 21st century, we must ensure that Canadian workers have the skills, knowledge and supportive environment to keep pace with technological advances, to contribute to innovation and to stay resilient in the face of ever-changing work demands.

This is why the government is committed to developing a new workplace skills strategy to help boost literacy and other essential job skills for apprentices and workers. This strategy, led by HRSD, will build on current federal programs and activities such as sector council initiatives, apprenticeship programs, workplace literacy initiatives, foreign credentials recognition and labour mobility. In all these activities, the department will work in partnership with the provinces and territories, employers and unions, and learning organizations to promote the cost effective development of skills driven by the needs of the workplace.

I believe that all the partnership based programs I have highlighted today illustrate clearly how the department's activities benefit both the nation as a whole and individual Canadians.

In conclusion, I would like to draw the attention of the House to the provisions in the departmental legislation governing the disclosure of Canadians' personal information. The bill includes a single code applicable to all the programs and activities of the department. The code recognizes that personal information is privileged. It will create more clarity, transparency and accountability for the protection of citizens' personal information.

[Marc Boulianne, Bloc, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Madam Speaker, I would first like to come back to what my colleague from Saint-Maurice—Champlain said about poverty, which really is the core problem. Poverty among families, seniors and children is at the heart of the problem.

A few moments ago, the Parliamentary Secretary addressed the gallery. I too would like to address the gallery and tell them that the real problem is poverty.

During the weekend, I was reading the Campaign 2000 report on child poverty in Canada, the report published in November 2004. According to the most recent data, despite the economic boom, the child poverty rate is at 15.6%. About one child out of six in Canada suffers from poverty. For families, the statistics are the same.

I would like to come back to the prophetic words from my colleague earlier. We must act now to eradicate poverty. We have all the ingredients. Canada could be a leader. Only the political will is missing, as the report says, “What's lacking is the political will. It's time to end the social deficit”. Promises must be kept.

There is a whole report like that, talking about the need for more jobs and a better benefit system. I would like to ask my colleague a question. Given that two departments now exist and that, and that even before they did, these reports on poverty had been available for a while, why was nothing done about the problem? Will creating a new agency or hiring many more civil servants eradicate poverty among seniors, families and children, if there is no political will? They are not interested. It is not essential for them.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Madam Speaker, I believe it has already been stated several times in the House, certainly by members on this side, that what we are debating today is the creation of the new department, a splitting of the two old departments of human resources and skills development. This is what the bill is about.

Basically the bill is about upgrading programs, making them more efficient and delivering them in a more balanced way to the citizens who are most in need in our society. It is a bill that at one time was supported by all members in the House; unfortunately, that is not the case today.

When we speak about the issues facing our society, be they poverty, seniors' issues, youth unemployment or literacy concerns, these are issues that this department and this government are handling and dealing with on an ongoing basis. So many measures that we have put in place, including the education savings plan and the Canada education savings grants, are part of the building blocks of what we call a social economy.

If we want to get people out of poverty, we have to give them tools, whether that is literacy skills, parents being able to stay at home and take care of their kids or child care. All of these tools are part of the building blocks of a social economy that help to get people out of poverty. We cannot eradicate poverty with just the stroke of a pen. It is a long process that takes place with a series of measures, which this government started on day one and continues to this day.

[Jerry Pickard, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry]

Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate my hon. colleague from Davenport for putting forward what I would perceive as probably one of the most important roles in the federal government.

In his speech, he focused very much on the education, training and lifestyle enhancement that is so important and has done so much for my riding and, I am certain, for ridings across Canada. What I want to be sure of, though, is that these programs we are presently putting forward do cover the same gamut of concern that we have had in the past.

I go back home each summer and I know that youth employment programs are extremely positive and well received. They employ so many young people, giving them skills, work experience and further career development through the youth employment strategy of Canada. That strategy has been extremely successful in my area.

I also know that the job creation partnerships program has gone many miles in order to bring people with skills together with employers who can work with them and develop those skills further. That has been extremely important as well.

As I look at two of these programs for training and developing career skills, I must say that I think both of them have done an amazing job in the past. I would say to my colleague that I hope this type of program will still be high profile in the new arrangement and also will advance and enhance the lives of so many people who are looking for further employment opportunities.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Madam Speaker, the hon. member is absolutely right: this is certainly a priority for the government. We have put an incredible amount of money and resources into youth development programs and literacy programs. We value education. In the 21st century economy, we know how important it is for our society to have higher education and people who are highly skilled.

It is lifelong learning that we are talking about, learning from a very early age to whatever age one may be. It is the whole process of training people at all the different ages in their lives, making sure that they go back into training and education programs. As a government we have been encouraging that for years. We continue to do that with this budget and of course through the development of the new department that is going to be created through this bill.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development]

Madam Speaker, I think my colleague has put his finger on it. I have argued strongly in favour of this new department as a more effective delivery mechanism for the range of programs we have had in the past so that they will be even more effective. My colleague from Davenport made the point about lifelong learning. I see this becoming the department of lifelong learning in the federal system.

I really like what the member for Davenport said with respect to partnerships and cooperation. While I am very keen that this department and the new department, Social Development Canada, will be more effective, one might say, in the delivery of their line programs, I am also very conscious of the fact there is a danger in the federal system of departments operating in silos.

My colleague mentioned the literacy secretariat, which is HRSD's. That is a secretariat which reaches out, as he said, to the not for profit sector, the provinces and the territories, the first nations, seniors' groups and a variety of others. Also, because there are literacy problems all across the federal system, it reaches out to other federal departments.

I would like some further comment from my colleague from Davenport on ways in which this new and we believe more effective department would be able to reach across the traditional boundaries between levels of government and between government departments.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Madam Speaker, my hon. colleague is absolutely correct when he says that this government has gone out of its way to cooperate and work with all levels of government, not just provincial levels of government but also municipal levels of government. We see them all as partners. We are here to work in partnership with the other levels of government.

On that note, I want to thank our government for the incredible work it has done with municipal governments. For many years municipal governments were not even recognized as legitimate partners in the equation and we dealt with provincial governments only, but we have come a long way in working not just with provincial partners on every issue facing this country but also with municipalities across this country.

That is creating great benefits in dealing with environmental issues, transportation issues and of course some of the issues that we have talked about, such as literacy, youth, and employment and poverty issues. We cannot deal with them in isolation. We need to work with our partners. Our government is forward thinking and is willing to work with those partners.

It is important to understand that the mandate of the announcement made by our Prime Minister on December 12, 2003, basically states that we will support government priorities to strengthen the social foundations of Canadian life by helping Canadians to acquire the skills they need to get meaningful work, promoting an efficient labour market and encouraging lifelong learning for Canadians. This is what we are doing today with this legislation. I encourage all members to support it.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-23. It has been a long time in the pipe and we still do not have any clearer understanding now than we did when we started as to exactly what this ministry is about or how it will operate.

On the surface, it may be a housekeeping bill to give legislative framework for the new ministry that has been operating since December of last year. I believe we are putting the cart before the horse by creating a ministry and allowing it to operate for more than a year before getting parliamentary approval.

The mandate of this ministry touches on important issues for Canadians, including workplace strategy, apprenticeship programs, employment insurance, student assistance initiatives and the shameful record of the government on social housing, the homeless and persons with disabilities.

When we look at policy relating to what makes our economy healthy and strong, we have some fundamental questions to answer. We have to get it right, whether we operate out of a mindset that says the economy exists to serve human beings or whether we think human beings were created to serve the economy. All social and fiscal policy flows from the primary understanding of the right relationship between people and the economy. Until we build an economy that honours human beings, that permits each and every Canadian to contribute fully and enjoy all the justice and wealth that flows now only to some, I believe we have failed in our work here.

I want to speak for a second about skills development and training. Regrettably, there has been a dismantling of the cooperative approach to training. We need to seriously examine how to improve apprenticeship programs. Canada has a shortage of tradespeople and it will worsen in the next few years. The Conference Board of Canada believes Canada is not prepared to deal with this issue under current apprenticeship programming.

There is a real disconnect in Canada between the need for a trained, skilled workforce and the opportunities available for workers to meet that need. We have systematically dismantled a cooperative approach to training which saw government, industry and labour organizations working together. Funding has been reduced, shifting the burden and the cost of training to the individual in the context of the market. Anywhere we look in the world today, particularly where economies are doing well, education and training are seen as a social investment that benefits everyone, including business and industry.

One of the first and most important decisions by the Irish government, for example, when it moved to kickstart the Celtic tiger, was to invest heavily in education for everyone. Finland sees the availability of skilled, trained workers as essential to any future growth in its economy.

One of the major competitive advantages in the new world economy is a country's workforce. This is why European jurisdictions are changing their laws to allow for dual citizenship to attract immigrants back with their education, training and experience.

In my own community of Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, young people are trying to enter the workforce, displaced older workers are looking for retraining and middle age retirees are looking to make a further contribution. No central facility is available and resourced to take these very willing and valuable workers from where they are to where they want to be. There is a patchwork of short term, mostly dead end programs that simply move people from one situation of frustration or poverty to another.

We used to have a network of properly funded community colleges offering programs that were easily accessible, affordable and connected to real work through partnerships with communities and industry. Apprenticeship programs were often a shared cost agreement between a workplace and a college.

Canada, like most western countries, is beginning to experience major demographic changes that will result in fewer workers. Meanwhile, the demand for high level skills will continue to increase in all sectors. Given these trends, competition for highly skilled workers will intensify within Canada and between Canada and other countries.

Recent surveys suggest that Canadian industry is set to lose approximately one-third of its skilled workforce in the next five to ten years and this in many economic growth sectors.

To address these forecasted shortfalls, a great deal of effort on developing efficient and effective training strategies in the trade skills and on replacing its current workforce is required.

One very successful approach has been developed and tested by CSTEC, the Canadian Steel Trade and Employment Congress, in partnership with Mohawk College, Dofasco, Lake Erie Steel and the United Steelworkers of America.

[An hon. member]

That is Hamilton.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

That is right.

This program is a co-op based apprenticeship program that integrates a college technician diploma program with a 16 month segment of trade school paid apprenticeship training.The Mohawk-Dofasco-Lake Erie-United Steelworkers pilot approach has been applied successfully to the electrical and mechanical disciplines.

One worker says, “In the plant where I was an apprentice there were 400 apprentices in the earlier eighties. Now there are only two. And the small number of apprentices, less than one per cent of Canada's workforce, are among the dwindling number of Canadians receiving any employer support for workplace training”.

Whether we are talking about the old economy or the so-called new economy of highly skilled workers, Canadian workers are well aware that access to education and training is absolutely crucial to their job security and earning power. There is overwhelming evidence showing that everybody wins when every worker has access to skills training.

Investment in education makes sense for the employer, for the worker and for society. We cannot allow education, training and skills development to become simply another commodity in the marketplace, nor can we leave it to the whim of a benevolent employer. It is the very underpinning of a civilized, intelligent and caring society and should be treated as a right or an entitlement. Every citizen should be encouraged and supported in their efforts to contribute to their community to the best of their ability and have access, without fear of cost, to the best training and education possible to that end.

These are the social democratic principles we, as New Democrats, will be bringing to the policy debate in our country and in the House, which brings me to the debate we are having here this morning. We are looking at the new bill that the government has proposed to establish the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development and to say to the House that we have some very real concerns.

I have been here for some nine months and I have not seen anything that indicates that the government is at all interested in even coming close to the principles that I have just laid out in the few thoughts that I have shared so far this afternoon in the House.

When we first expressed support for it, we thought the bill was simply a housekeeping bill, giving legislative framework for a ministry already up and running for a year. We think it is good to streamline ministries from time to time, separating social development policy and program work from HRDC program delivery. However at the time we registered our concern that the government, in its ongoing slighting of Parliament, had the ministry in operation a full year without parliamentary approval. We found out later that this is a government that actually continues, time and time again, to ignore Parliament.

Parliament defeated the bill that would have split foreign affairs and international trade, but what is Parliament to the government? Government goes ahead and does it anyway.

A parliamentary committee rejected the appointment of the former mayor of Winnipeg to an environment board because it did not think he was qualified. The Prime Minister does not need Parliament. He went ahead and made the appointment anyway.

A government that has practically no legislative agenda to bring forward to the House, when we have this minority Parliament opportunity to do so much good for the country and our communities, has to give all of us some hesitation. When it finally does bring something forward to actually get our approval, we really need to look at it and to try to understand why it is coming forward in the first place, what the intention behind it is and what the track record is of the government for implementing legislation.

This past year we have watched the new Department of Human Resources and Skills Development in action. Now, we certainly oppose the legislation because of the abysmal track record of the ministry and the government this past year with respect to the Department of HRSDC and its core issues, such as funding community agencies, on which we are wrapping up an investigation as we speak; employment insurance; housing; labour market, work skills strategies; and student loans.

I will speak about funding of community agencies in a moment but right across the board this ministry has been a spectacular failure in its first year of operation under its new name and new mandate. We should have known. The government has shown no indication of changing its billion dollar boondoggle ways at Human Resources and Skills Development Canada.

The Liberal budget did not reflect or incorporate the HR committee recommendations on EI. What a scandal that was. It would have reduced the hours to qualify. It would have addressed the problems with seasonal workers and would have given more incentives to work rather than the disincentive that now exists.

Our colleague, the member from New Brunswick, has been a tireless champion on the EI file and pushes it every chance he gets. He puts it in the face of government and asks when it will actually get down to spending the money, which the workers put into that fund themselves in the first place, on those things that they need when they find themselves challenged by unemployment and looking to take advantage of new opportunities.

The Liberal budget also had nothing for housing and the homeless which falls under this ministry. It was only in a last death bed recantation that the government finally sat down with the New Democrats and actually put something in the budget for housing that will help people in communities across the country.

With respect to student loans, recent studies confirm that the learning bond idea is a bad idea, helping the more affluent Canadians and not helping ordinary and poorer Canadians. The Liberal budget leaves students out in the cold.

Instead of tackling the funding crisis in post-secondary education, the Liberal government chose to spend $4.6 billion on corporate tax cuts and still more on the national debt. That was continuing until just a couple of weeks ago when we convinced them that the money would be better spent on people, on communities and on issues that people know are important and need to be addressed. Because of the New Democratic Party we now have some money ready to flow, if we can get the budget passed in this place, to actually help those folks and help those programs.

Less debt is good but a truly balanced budget must also invest in Canadians' priorities. Under the Liberals, tuition has doubled while student aid has dwindled. That leaves more students buckling under their own debt loads. Others are forced to scrap their post-secondary education plans entirely. The big benefit for students in the budget that the Liberal government brought forward and tabled a couple of months ago is something a person has to die to see. Regrettably, I mean that quite literally: students' debts will now be forgiven at death.

Ontario is a have not province in its treatment of students. This is not what Canadians voted for in the past election. The Prime Minister told Canadians to vote Liberal for a progressive government. He promised to make education more affordable. Where is the follow through? The follow through is now happening to some limited degree because the New Democrats held the Liberals' feet to the fire in an agreement to try to get the budget through because we know that there are things that need to be done for people if they are going to take advantage of the new economy and opportunities that are coming at them.

We now have some money in the budget to help with the question of tuition, particularly for the ordinary and lower income families and students across the province who need support and help in order to access the education that they know they need so that they can contribute with the skills that they will develop in the economy.

Incredibly, students must wait 10 years before applying for bankruptcy protection from student loans. That has been true since 1998 when the Liberals stretched the waiting period from two years to ten years. Only students face this discrimination. Our party will keep fighting until every capable student has a chance to pursue a post-secondary education. Canadians deserve that. Our changing economy demands it.

I want to talk for a couple of minutes about the human resources and skills development funding fiasco, the investigation that we have been dealing with in committee for quite some time now.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development is signalling to the Speaker that maybe my time is up. It is the same behaviour he takes part in at committee when he tries to shut down almost everything I bring forward to try to get to the bottom of that scandal.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. My colleague's interpretation is wrong. I was simply trying to find out how much time was remaining. I certainly was not trying to indicate that his time was up or anything of that sort.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Madam Speaker, if that is true, I accept it but it certainly is the kind of behaviour I have experienced in the committee as I have tried to bring forward some very important issues on behalf of the volunteer not for profit sector in our communities as they try to understand the new process in place of requests for proposal from the ministry.

In my community of Sault Ste. Marie, the Canadian Hearing Society has been delivering for a number of years very valuable and important support to the deaf, deafened and hard of hearing. It has lost its contract and does not know why. There has never been any indication that it has done anything wrong or has not been performing up to par or beyond.

As a matter of fact, the ministry offered the contract to the March of Dimes. The March in Dimes in turn wrote a letter to say that it could not deliver on the program as it did it not have the expertise to do so. What happened? HRSD said that it was too bad. It has gone back to the March of Dimes and is now in the process of trying to convince it that it should deliver that program. Is that cooperation? Is that called working with partners which are in the not for profit and voluntary sectors? I say not.

There used to be a very cooperative team approach in Sault Ste. Marie whenever new business or industry indicated that it wanted to come to Sault Ste. Marie. All of the not for profit voluntary organizations used to come together under the name “Team Sault Ste. Marie”. They would meet with a new potential employer, ascertain what the needs were, set up training opportunities, work with different funding sources to ensure that the money needed and available could be brought to the challenge and offered to a new company. New hiring halls would be set up. The list goes on of the kind of cooperation that took place. The whole community was the benefactor of that.

We now have an environment in my community and every community across the province where there is competition. People are looking askance at each other and that cooperative approach is slowly but surely moving away. That is how the ministry carries out its mandate in this instance. There is still no action from the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development to address that challenge.

Three or four agencies across the province have lost their funding. The day before the investigation review began in our committee, the ministry advised them that they lost their funding. I wrote to ask for a moratorium. The Bloc also wrote to ask for a moratorium. I know labour organizations across the province gathered with these communities and held a public press conference in which they also asked for a moratorium on this until we could get to the bottom of it. We wanted to find our why so many of these long serving, valuable and excellent agencies had lost their funding. However, they lost their funding anyway and there was no moratorium.

Now as we move to put together what I think is a good set of recommendations to the ministry, these agencies, which are caught up with what the ministry agreed was a faulty process, will not have their issues addressed. They will not get their funding back. They will not be around to take advantage of any new approach that might happen after the valuable work of the committee on this file.

That is why I encourage my caucus not to support legislation to give power to a ministry that still does not seem to understand what it needs to do and how it needs to act in communities to deliver first class training, employment and support to unemployed workers and students across the country.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development]

Madam Speaker, I have listened to the speeches this morning and that has to be the most garbled speech I have heard.

My colleague, who is on the committee, began by saying that he did not really know what the legislation was about. It is about dividing a former federal department, which the House of Commons, including the NDP, said was too large and cumbersome, into two more effective units to streamline the delivery of the services, the delivery of the Canada pension and Canada disability pension in Social Development Canada, and to streamline the delivery of programs in the HRSD department in a more transparent fashion than before, and I have said that many times. The Privacy Commissioner herself commended the legislation for the increased transparency, which is broad.

The member went on to say that this was housekeeping legislation. It is housekeeping legislation but very important housekeeping legislation. How much more quickly could we move on improvements in the programs if the legislation could go through the House? We have been debating it for months and months, and not on the recommendation of cabinet but on the recommendation of the House of Commons itself. It is very important housekeeping to make a key department, a lifelong learning department, more effective.

He then went on to community colleges and tuition fees. I know he was a provincial member, so was I. He knows that tuition and community colleges fall firmly in the provincial mandate. I believe very strongly that the federal government should take some responsibility for those areas of lifelong learning, but I certainly do not claim that we should dictate tuition. I will point out to him that unlike the province in which he was a member of the legislature, the province of Quebec, in response in part to the very large investments in post-secondary education by the federal government, has removed tuition from its community colleges all together. The province of Ontario moved to the second highest tuition in the country, under the Harris government when my colleague was a member.

The government has improved Canada student loans. I agree there is too much dependence on loans. We put in the millennium scholarships which Ontario partially clawed back, the Canada graduate scholarships. In the last budget we had grants to help with tuition for disabled students in every undergraduate year. We have grants for low income students now. This is federal money going into the provincial jurisdiction in the first year for low income students. We have increased the transfer to the provinces. Therefore, $8 billion or $9 billion of federal money goes into post-secondary education, and he argues against it. Why he is arguing against it in considering this bill I do not know.

My idea is that we get these two new departments properly set up so they can get on with the work. Then we try to improve them as effectively as we can. One improvement already made is the Canada learning bond, which only one party in the House opposed, and that was the NDP. I will describe the Canada learning bond.

When a low income child is born, the parents or the caregiver, for example Children's Aid if the child is unfortunate enough to be placed immediately in its care, opens an RESP account at birth into which $500 is placed. Every year until the child is 15, $100 is placed in that RESP account. The moneys from those deposits, plus the accumulated interest, become available to the child at the age of 18 for any suitable lifelong education purpose. If the family puts money into the account, for example $100, the federal government matches it with 40%.

What does the member have against that?

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Madam Speaker, the member talks about garbled. Talk about garbled, I do not know what the question was. He put several things in front of the House.

I want to make it absolutely clear to everyone in case they have been misled, I was not a member of the Harris government. I was in opposition at that time and we were certainly in opposition to the increases to the tuitions at that time.

I also made clear in my comments that I understood this to be a housekeeping bill and the fact that we initially said we would support it. However, a bill that gives legislative framework for a department that for all intents and purposes has been up and running for about a year speaks to the arrogance of the government continuing to put the cart before the horse. It is not interested in listening to anything that comes before the House in terms of the direction Parliament itself has agreed the government should do.

The track record of the government over the last nine months, and in my experience, on anything to do with HRSD is what gives my party concern with this legislation.

The government has moved ahead with the same arrogant attitude that got itself in trouble in the first place with the HRSD boondoggle. It is setting itself up to continue to do the same kinds of things. If we do not challenge at this point the development of the department, if we do not move to put in place the necessary checks and balances to give the government some time to look at the recommendations to come forward the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills Development, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities, on the concerns of the not for profit and volunteer organizations with the requests for proposals. then we are being complicit.

The member needs to pay close attention to what those agencies and organizations told us in committee. They live under a regime of intimidation and harassment. That is not healthy if we are to deliver good opportunities and programs for people to receive training and education in the country.

[Jerry Pickard, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Industry]

Madam Speaker, when I listen to some folks, it amazes me how biased they really can be. I heard nothing positive from my hon. colleague who presented a 20 minute speech and at this point probably a five minute retort to a question to him.

I know that in this last week we have had a major announcement on housing by the Minister of Housing and this will affect low income people. I know we just had a major announcement on child care facilities, adding 50% to child care facilities in the country with Ontario receiving $1.8 billion alone and $5 billion across the country in the next five years.

When I look at the kinds of programs we have, right now is a great time in Canada for young people training. Those people who are on youth employment programs across the country, and we are talking about tens of thousands of young people, are given the opportunity in the summer to work in a field in which they have developed skills in school, to enhance those skills, to get work experience and to develop a background where they can say that they have worked in the field and have done the work they have been trained to do. In other words, they have a curriculum vitae in the work that is being provided through the federal services.

When I look at what we are doing in human resource development, the RESP is a fantastic opportunity for young families and people to be educated. I have to ask my colleague this. How can this all be negative?

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Madam Speaker, it is not all negative. Anything positive that has come forward from the government by way of budget initiative has happened in the last couple of weeks in a death-bed agreement with the NDP.

There was absolutely nothing for affordable housing in the budget until we came along and said that the government had to put something into the program. There would have been no agreement with anyone in the last week, including Ontario, had we not insisted there be money for affordable housing in that budget.

The only thing positive in the last couple of weeks coming out of the government is coming out because of an agreement with the New Democratic Party that insisted corporate tax breaks be taken out of the budget and the $4.6 billion that would be freed up would go into programs for people and communities.

The only positive things coming out of the government after nine months are those that have been put into the budget in an agreement with the New Democratic Party.

[Michael John Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Madam Speaker, let me begin by thanking by fellow parliamentarians for their support and discussion as this legislation has worked its way through the House.

Bill C-23 has benefited from the input of all parties during its review by the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills Development, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

The fact that we even have this act and the new Department of Human Resources and Skills Development is, in part, a response to a recommendation made by the committee in June 2000.

At that time the standing committee advised us to divide HRDC, the department's predecessor, “into several more homogeneous and focused structures”.

That was sound advice, given the need for greater national attention to human resources development, a priority for all Canadians and especially a priority for countries coping with the pressures of our knowledge and information driven world in the 21st century.

In response, we narrowed the new department's focus to the development of labour markets, skills and creating a culture of lifetime learning.

This is one of the most important things that government can do to enable Canadians to thrive and prosper in the workplace and in the community, and to help Canadian businesses compete in an aggressive global economy.

To understand the value of HRSD's work, we have to appreciate that the labour market is ever changing. While we tend to talk about things such as technological innovations and the advent of globalization, the real story is the impact of these transformative trends on the lives of Canadians.

Roughly 75% of new jobs require some form of post-secondary education, a quarter of them demand a university degree. For Canada to remain competitive in the global marketplace, we need to develop a highly skilled labour force.

Our economy will only continue to grow to the extent that we have well educated and creative workers capable of producing innovative products and services.

The corollary of all this is that people today need to be constantly acquiring new skills to do their jobs and remain employable. The days when a high school diploma was enough to secure employment and jobs for life are long gone. Learning must now be life long. That means laying the foundation in early childhood, ensuring adequate access to post-secondary studies, and enabling workers to continue to learn and develop new skills while they are on the job.

The changing composition of our families and communities also has implications for the workforce. On account of our aging population, people leaving the workforce outnumber those who are coming in. Consequently, we need to maximize participation of all Canadians, including those who have traditionally been marginalized, for example, aboriginal people and Canadians with disabilities.

We also need to make better use of the skills already in the labour market, such as those of recent immigrants and the skills that they bring with them when they enter our country.

In 2000, 58% of working age immigrants had a post-secondary degree at landing, compared with 43% of the existing Canadian population. Yet all too often these highly skilled and educated people are unable to put their skills to work in Canada because we do not recognize their foreign credentials.

Consider that immigrants are expected to account for all net labour force growth by 2011 and all net population growth by 2031. Then we begin to see how critical it is that we had better integrate new Canadians into our communities and fully capitalize on their skills.

Nothing remains static. Just as life is changing for Canadians, government policies and programs must also respond to the complexity of the world around us and reflect the diversity of the citizens that we serve. Given the relentless rate of change and challenges confronting our country, we need a more nimble, more responsive organization, and that is what this legislation is designed to do.

As a result of the division of responsibilities between HRSDC and Social Development Canada, we can now concentrate more effectively in promoting a highly skilled and mobile workforce and an efficient and inclusive labour market.

That work starts at the earliest stages of life when we provide opportunities for parents to stay home to nurture their young children and through federal investments like the Canada learning bond and the Canada education savings grant program that help them save for their children's future education.

It continues through the teen years and early adulthood, through the broad range of initiatives under our youth employment strategy that help young Canadians gain the knowledge, skills and experience they need to make their mark in the job market, and through the $1.3 billion made available annually under the Canada student loans program, the loans and special grants, to ensure a post-secondary education is within the reach of all Canadians regardless of family income.

It carries on into the labour market by helping workers develop their skills in line with job opportunities. These include active employment measures under the employment insurance program, assistance for apprenticeships and a workplace skills strategy that will include a pan-Canadian approach to assessing and recognizing the foreign credentials of immigrants.

All these efforts will help to build the highly skilled workforce that Canada needs to retain our status as one of the world's most successful societies.

Doing things differently also means that we cannot be all things to all people, any more than we can develop a one-size-fits-all policy that meets Canadians' needs and expectations. We need to draw on the skills, the resources, the ideas and supports of people in all walks of life in all corners of our country, and to work more productively with other governments, the private and voluntary sectors and educators to ensure that every Canadian has a chance to achieve and contribute to his or her full potential.

This collaborative approach recognizes the shared responsibility in this domain and the need to work with all partners to set goals, focus resources and take collective action. Each order of government has an important role to play on issues close to HRSD's mandate. Let me also be clear that this legislation is subordinate to the Constitution Act and we will respect the division of powers.

Bill C-23 also deals with the sharing of services with Social Development Canada. Streamlining our processes and sharing our resources with SDC represents good value for taxpayers. An integrated service delivery network can effectively deliver the services Canadians need.

This act deals, as well, with the sensitive issue of sharing personal information, an important responsibility our government fully respects and is committed to uphold.

The act includes a code of personal information to govern disclosure and ensure due diligence for the management of all personal information. We are confident this code achieves an appropriate balance between the need to protect personal information and the use of such information through administrative programs and services.

I can assure my hon. colleagues that we have been very prudent in preparing this legislation, ensuring every reasonable precaution will be taken to protect individuals' privacy rights and the security of their personal information, which is so important to Canadians.

This legislation would formalize the legal structure and provide the tolls and resources necessary to make the department operational, confirming in law the arrangements set in place in 2003.

What the employees who make up HRSD need are the powers and the authorities contained in Bill C-23 that would let them fulfil the department's mandate. That mandate is to improve the standard of living and quality of life of all Canadians by promoting a highly skilled and mobile workforce and an efficient and inclusive labour market. They know that skills and learning stimulate the economy, and give value and a sense of worth to every member of our community, helping to create a Canada that makes us both competitive and proud. They just want to get on with the job.

Canadians expect Parliament will ensure the speedy passage of this legislation and advance this very important agenda. Like them, I am counting on my fellow colleagues to join me to do just that.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development]

Madam Speaker, I listened with great interest to my colleague from Dartmouth—Cole Harbour and I want to thank him for a very thoughtful and personal speech. I know of his commitment to this area. I know he is the chair of the government caucus on post-secondary education and research. I could tell from his remarks about lifelong learning that he understands there is no way we can take one part of training, for example, apprenticeships or medical training or early childhood development training, out of the system. Somehow we have to build the entire pyramid. It has to go from the best quality of early childhood development to, for example, literacy programs for seniors which the government offers.

The purpose of Bill C-23 is to set up a lifelong learning department which will, first of all, deliver more effectively existing programs. It will develop new programs and integrate programs better. It will work, as my colleague said, with our partners in the provinces and territories, and in the not for profit areas and in the first nations communities and so on, across Canada.

It is really interesting that we do not hear the expression “brain drain” very much in Canada. I can remember only a few years ago when there was an enormous concern in the country about brain drain. My colleague quoted some of the figures now about the level of qualifications of immigrants coming into the country. In the colleges and universities we discover that bright young Canadians who have gone overseas are coming back and bright young people from other jurisdictions are being attracted into Canada to the point where we more often hear criticism of how long it is taking to re-adapt highly qualified immigrants into the system than the fact that we are losing people in a net fashion overseas.

I believe the federal government and its roles in post-secondary education has played a very important part in that. We are now attracting people into Canada, retaining talent that we would otherwise have been losing, and we are trying to build the pyramid from early childhood, or even prenatal programs, through to seniors programs which we need in true lifelong learning.

My colleague mentioned the pan-Canadian approach. He knows better than I that we are in an area of shared jurisdiction and I accept that. I certainly do not want, as one earlier speaker indicated, the federal government, for example, dictating tuition fees in colleges and universities. We cannot do that, but I would like to influence tuition fees. I would like to help students who are faced with tuition fees which are too high. That is what the federal government has been trying to do for many years.

I wonder if my colleague would give us some of his thoughts on how best we can deliver the transfer of money to the provinces for higher education and training, and the programs that we deliver at the present time.