Debates of June 28th, 2005

Civil Marriage Act

[Dave Chatters, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that the member uses the word faith. Unlike the Prime Minister, some of us in this place live our faith. We are not members of Parliament during the week, then we go home, go to church on Sunday and be religious. The faith we grow up with and the teachings we learned have become part of who we are and what we are.

It is my responsibility, as a member of Parliament, to represent the majority views of my riding and my constituents. I have done that and I have done that without compromise. I have defended the principles of protection of religious freedom and I will continue to do that.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to take the opportunity to thank my colleague, who was the former member of Parliament for my area of Fort McMurray--Athabasca, for the great effort he has taken to be here today.

Since he has not had an opportunity to be here and since I was a member of the Bill C-38 committee, would he comment on some of the procedures that were taken by the committee? In its meetings of less than two months, it heard only 55 witnesses on this crucial issue to Canadians. Many of the witnesses complained that they received less than 24 hours notice to come to the meetings and many received less than seven days. In fact, seven witnesses could not appear because of conflicts and other issues.

We only received three or four of the briefs of the experts before the committee meetings. Many of those still have not been translated. I have not received many of them. We will be voting on this very issue tonight and we cannot even hear from the experts and cross-examine their testimony.

Could he comment on that?

[Dave Chatters, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Mr. Speaker, when the government has an agenda of social engineering to the extreme, it cannot allow democracy to get in the way. Not only have many of the experts in this field not had a chance to testify, but Canadians have not had a chance to express their opinions on this issue, an issue of social engineering, of basic restructuring of society.

All Canadians should have their say on this. It should either be an election issue before the bill passes or it should be a national referendum on whether this is the kind of society we want.

Message from the Senate

[The Deputy Speaker]

I have the honour to inform that House that a message has been received from the Senate informing the House that the Senate has passed certain bills.

I also have the honour to inform the House that a message has been received from the Senate informing the House that the Senate has passed certain public bills, to which the concurrence of the House is desired.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-38, An Act respecting certain aspects of legal capacity for marriage for civil purposes, be read the third time and passed, and of the amendment.

Civil Marriage Act

[Michael John Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted with the news you have just given us about the passing of Bill C-43 with customary speed by the Senate. That is great news for the province of Nova Scotia as well as Newfoundland and Labrador, more than fulfilling the Prime Minister's commitment of last year.

I am honoured to speak to Bill C-38, an act to extend the right of civil marriage to gays and lesbians. I will be splitting my time with one of my favourite parliamentarians, the member for Winnipeg South Centre.

The vote that we will take tonight in just a few hours will provide equality under the law for all Canadians, those men and women, our brothers and sisters, our friends and those whom we love. This vote represents one of the most clear opportunities we are likely to have to declare our faith in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and to support our values of inclusion, justice and dignity.

None of us here have taken this responsibility lightly. Each of us have our own reasons to vote as we see fit. I can only affirm for my part the belief that one's human dignity is non-negotiable. Our responsibility here today is to acknowledge that reality, so that through our actions as legislators we might recognize that which we all know to be true, that gays and lesbians are fully equal and that Parliament will do the right thing, in my view, this evening.

On March 21 I spoke to the issue of civil marriage and outlined my views. Today I would like to speak about the process that we have undertaken since then, having been a member of the legislative committee dealing with civil marriage, as well as the ongoing discussions and interactions I have had the opportunity to have with my constituents.

Many people have opposed the bill and many have provided reasons as to why we should not vote on the bill tonight in a positive way. I would like to address a few of those issues.

First, some have suggested that we are rushing the bill through. I think the record will show that this is not the case at all. Indeed, some members opposite have, on the one hand, suggested that we are wasting our time on this issue because there are more important issues to deal with, as if equality is not an issue of national importance. Yet on the other hand there are members who have said that this is so important that they would like even more debate.

I believe there has been more than a healthy debate in this country, going back for years. Certainly, we have had ample witnesses appear before the legislative committee and they have expressed their views. How many more bills have had this much attention? I do not think very many. The suggestion that somehow we are rushing this through rings hollow in light of that debate.

Second, an issue that has been of particular concern to me is that it has been suggested that we should not allow this law to pass because people of faith oppose the bill. In fact, we just heard the previous speaker. He is a man whom I respect and whom we know has faced certainly challenges, but has come here to cast his vote. I respect that. But to suggest that the Prime Minister does not live his faith is outrageous. It is outrageous and outdated.

As a member of the legislative committee on civil marriage, we have heard representatives from many religions. We have heard from Catholics, Evangelicals, Sikhs, Jews, Muslims and members of the United Church. There is no unanimity on this issue. Some are against the legislation and some support it.

In fact, in our committee work we heard very positively on this bill from the Unitarian Church, some Sikhs, Rabbis and from the United Church. My own faith is rooted in Catholicism. I was raised by parents who taught me that the gospel message was about love and peace through a living faith.

I support the right of those who, because of their faith, oppose this legislation, but not all people of faith have that same view. In the end we would do well not to assume any one of us have an exclusive domain on what constitutes good morals or family values.

I agree personally with the moderator of the United Church when he suggested that supporting same sex marriage is not an abandonment of faith, but an embracing of faith. This view, expressed in simple terms, captures my own approach. I have not compromised my faith in supporting this legislation. I have embraced it.

Another question raised to exclude gays and lesbians from civil marriage was that only two other countries have adopted such legislation. Why would we want to be among the first countries to do so? My answer is, where do we want to be when it comes to embracing equality and recognizing the rights of individuals? Should we strive to be in the middle of the pack or to be the last nation dragged in?

Canada takes great pride in being the first nation to have officially adopted multiculturalism as a policy. There were many opposed to that, but we look back on that with pride and as a turning point for Canada, and that is a good thing.

We are a leader in many other areas: eliminating third world debt and patenting drugs for HIV-AIDS. The fact that we are among the first is not something we should hide. It is something we should celebrate.

Another reason we have heard not to support this legislation is that gays and lesbians do not even want this. So if they do not want it, why are we putting it forward. We have had people in committee tell us that gays and lesbians do not want to be married, but there are many heterosexuals who do not want to be married either. I do not think anyone would suggest that they should not have the right.

A number of gays and lesbians have fought very hard for that right, to have their marriages recognized as equal to those of other Canadians. I salute them. I salute their fight. I salute their courage including people like the former member for Burnaby—Douglas. Today when we vote on this issue, I will be thinking of them including my sister Jane, her partner Vicki, my godchild Rosie and her sister.

Some people feel that religion will be compromised, that religion trumps equality is what we hear. In a truly civilized society religion and equality do not compete. They co-exist easily and they complement each other. No church has been forced by the Government of Canada to marry or not marry people. That has not happened. The Catholic Church, for example, can decide who can enter into the sacrament of marriage. It alone determines who is married in the Catholic Church. That is how it should be. That is how it is. That is how it will continue.

We have even heard some people suggest that our health care will be compromised if we extend the right to marry to gays and lesbians. We have heard if we allow gays and lesbians to marry there will be an increase in all kinds of diseases and HIV-AIDS. The people who suggest that have no idea what the bill is about. The bill is not about sex at all. It is about love and commitment. Anyone who suggests that allowing gays and lesbians to marry, that it will lead to a dramatic increase in levels of sexual activity, should check with their heterosexual colleagues who may be married. They may be disabused of that theory.

We have gone well beyond the issue of whether it is right or wrong for homosexuals to have sex. A great Canadian once said, “the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation”. We have moved beyond the morality of that issue. This is not about sex. This issue is about love and commitment, and the recognition that gays and lesbians are equally qualified and equally capable of making a commitment to each other. The moral aspect is an issue we decided in this country a long time ago.

The next argument is that we should have a national plebiscite. If we had a national plebiscite on whether women should have voted, imagine the result considering that those who would have been deciding that would have been men. Or if they had a plebiscite in states like Alabama or Mississippi on whether blacks should have the vote, they still would not.

When it comes to an issue like this, the majority cannot determine the rights of the minority. Alongside the plebiscite argument are people who say we should listen to the voice of the people in our ridings and vote the way they want us to vote. I decided on this issue some time ago.

In fact, it is an issue I have supported and ran on in the last campaign when this was an issue. Rights and justice cannot be subject to a poll. Equality does not find its legitimacy in meaning through a referendum. That is not the Canadian way. I have met and spoken with hundreds of my constituents, both for and against. I have never refused a meeting with anyone because they had a different point of view and I have valued every opinion I have heard.

Today we will vote on the issue of civil marriage, Bill C-38. Today we will decide if gays and lesbians will have equal access to civil marriage as do other Canadians. This week, as we celebrate Canada Day, is a very appropriate week to vote on this issue. On Canada Day we celebrate the best of Canada, the diversity of Canada, a nation of equality, a nation of strength, a nation of compassion, a nation that believes we are stronger together than we are apart, and a nation where we celebrate equality.

Being equal does not mean that we are all the same, far from it. From those who were born here from our founding peoples, to people who came here hundreds of years ago, to people who have just recently chosen to come to this nation, we celebrate our differences. We do not all look the same. We do not all go to the same church. We do not all speak the same language. We do not all eat the same food. We are different. We celebrate those differences because those differences make us stronger. We not only encourage but celebrate those differences.

Today in this chamber we will celebrate the diversity of Canada once again. We will send a statement to the world that in Canada gays and lesbians will not be considered second class citizens. They will not be offered marriage lite; they will be offered full marriage.

When members of this House from all sides look back on this day in years to come, I believe they will see this as one step of the many steps that Canada has made to be a world leader in recognizing that one of the great privileges of freedom is equality. I am proud to support this bill.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, listening to the member who just spoke, there is no doubt in my mind the sincerity in what he says he believes. I appreciate that part of it.

However, I want to get into this area of rights. I hear this so much on that side of the House, that it is all about rights. This is not an issue about rights. However, I do not even care to debate that any more because it seems like that is not going to make any difference.

Here we have a party sitting across that is governing the country and professes to be the protector of rights. Let me tell this member something and see how he responds.

I have been here 12 years. I have fought to raise the age of consent from 14 because 14 is too young. It has been defeated by the government at every opportunity. It has never been allowed. Therefore, parents do not have the right to take care of their children if a 14 year old decides to live with an adult under whatever circumstances. The parents would like to meet their responsibilities and take care of that child, but they do not have the right because the government has refused to give it to them.

There are grandparents all across this country crying through our various laws we have in existence. Many members on both sides of the House at one time were trying their best to get the rights of grandparents recognized. It has not been done because that side of the House has not approved it. The government has not given grandparents the right of access to their grandchildren.

I have been here 12 years fighting child pornography. I have listened to all of these rights. However, the one right that never seems to be concentrated on is the absolute right that these children be protected from exploitation. Artistic merit enters into the laws that the government brings in, which takes away that right of serious protection.

Did this member know that natives on Indian reserves have no access to ombudsmen? Everybody in Canada has access to them, except if they live on a reserve. They do not have that right. And when the Liberals had the opportunity to fix it, they voted against it. Not to mention the spousal rights on reserves. All these rights issues have been brought to the government and it has turned them down day after day, time after time.

Why do government members feel that they are the only ones who can rise on their feet and speak about the rights and equality of this nation when they refuse to do it in a very common sense way on so many issues?

[Michael John Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I think it is the first time that I have had a question from the member in the House of Commons. I do not question the hon. member's sincerity. I also have no doubt about the hon. member's commitments or rights. I wish him well in his crusades. He obviously is a person of great passion. If rights are particularly important to him, I would suggest that he take advantage of this bill. If he is not voting on those other ones tonight, he should vote on this one tonight.

We all know that justice delayed is justice denied. Martin Luther King once said that a right delayed was a right denied. We can right a right tonight and vote for that right.

[Jeff Watson, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to bring a different perspective to this debate for the hon. member opposite.

I am adopted. I do not know my biological heritage, nor do my biological mother and father. Mine is an example of an exception to the norm of traditional marriage, that is, that male-female marriage is marriage precisely because it has procreative capacity and that marriage is the child-centred and not adult-centred institution that satisfies the lifelong need of Canada's children to know and be known by and raised by their mother and father.

The Liberal government wants to overthrow this norm and establish a new norm of marriage by calling homosexual relationships equal that have no procreative capacity at all. Does the member opposite believe that Bill C-38, with its legislative change from natural parent to legal parent, will satisfy the need of Canada's children to know and be known by and raised by their biological mother and father?

[Michael John Savage, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Speaker, one of the mistakes members opposite often make is to think that the extension of rights to others diminishes their own. That is not the case. Equality is not like a swimming pool with only a certain amount of room in it. If we want to have a metaphor for equality, have the metaphor of a candle: we light another candle and provide more light in the room.

We are providing new opportunities to Canadians. There are a great many heterosexual Canadians who cannot have their own children. They are adopting and finding other ways of having children. I can only speak on behalf of somebody I know personally, my godchild Rosie, who has two mothers. I do not think they are better than a heterosexual parent, but nobody will tell me that they are worse than a heterosexual parent.

The ability to parent a child is not exclusive to heterosexual or homosexual parents. There are people of all sexual backgrounds who can be quality parents for children. This extends that right to more Canadians.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I too am pleased to rise to speak to this important bill, the civil marriage act, and I do so for the first time in Parliament.

As a member of the legislative committee to deal with Bill C-38, along with my colleagues I have listened to the many presentations intended originally to provide technical assistance to the committee. But many clearly did enter into the debate on the merits of the bill.

I have also listened to the many comments from my constituents and indeed from Canadians across the country. I understand that this is a difficult issue for many and I respect their views. Many in my riding support this bill and many indeed are opposed.

My role as a member of Parliament is to consider and balance competing interests in the national context and accordingly cast my vote. I understand that some may oppose my view and that it may cost me support. This is a democracy and I accept that.

I want to indicate today on the record my support for this legislation and the reasons for my support. I support Bill C-38 because it is consistent with my support for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it is consistent with my faith and it is consistent with my views of what family is about.

The three aspects of the issue I want to speak to are those of principle, reason and practicality.

The principle most clearly involved here is one of equality as provided under the charter. The existing definition of marriage, as determined by the courts in eight provinces and one territory now, discriminates unreasonably and unnecessarily with regard to same sex couples. That there are objections to this view is not surprising.

Yet as has been cited, over the course of human history every advance in equality has been resisted by powerful elements of the community. Whether it was the abolition of slavery in the first half of the 19th century, the extension of the franchise to men who were not property owners in the latter part of the 19th century, the enfranchising of women in the early 20th century, or the coming of the welfare state in the mid-20th century, the objection has always been similar.

Ending slavery, it was argued, would destroy the natural social order, create economic havoc and create an artificial equality between superiors and inferiors. Enfranchising men without property would imperil the existing political order, while enfranchising women would destroy the family and cause women to lose their femininity. Creating a broad system of social supports was simply dismissed or denounced as socialism or, worse, as pure communism.

In short, one is hard pressed to think of any major advancement of human freedom or equality which has not in its time been denounced by someone, and often by those most privileged in society.

The second is a matter of reason as opposed to fear. It has been argued that this bill will somehow directly or indirectly pose threats to those religious bodies that do not as a matter of faith or doctrine approve of same sex marriage. If this were a reasonable fear it would be compelling, but is it reasonable?

As things now stand, no religious authority is compelled to marry persons who fail to meet the requirements of that particular religion. Some, as we know and as we have heard here, will not sanction the remarriage of divorced persons. Yet even though the state sanctions the remarriage of divorcees, the state has never remotely suggested that ecclesiastical authorities are under some obligation to do so and would or could or might face retribution if they failed to do so.

Similarly, the state has long sanctioned divorce itself, yet when has the state ever said, suggested or implied that religious bodies that do not sanction divorce must do so because the state does so? In a country with long and deepening traditions of religious toleration, the suggestion that some religious bodies would face retribution over this issue is, I believe, fearmongering of the worst sort.

Third, it is a matter of practicality. The fact is that same sex marriage, as I have already noted, is now legal and occurring daily and routinely in nine jurisdictions in this country.

That is the case and will remain the case, yet Canadian society seems to be carrying on in the usual way. People go to work. They read newspapers and watch TV. They have and go to parties. They worship God in their own way. There is no rioting in the streets and no unravelling of the social order. In short, people generally and married couples in particular, same sex or opposite sex, are getting on with their normal lives with neither fear nor rancour, nor, let it be noted, often with much concern about what goes on in this House.

Those opposite might wish to address how, if their wishes were to prevail, they would deal with the thousands of same sex couples who are now legally and legitimately married under the laws of their own provinces. An authoritarian government, be it of the right or the left, might not hesitate to impose retroactive legislation to turn back the clock. Is that what those opposite would do if they had power? As with all change, there are those who will fear the worst. I count myself with those who believe in the innate decency and goodwill of our compatriots.

We have heard much about the sanctity of the family and the imperative to preserve the underpinnings of the traditional family as it is defined by some. If I may be personal, I too want to speak of the importance of the family, of a family embracing and supporting all within it, of a family where all members have equal rights and equal opportunities. Like many in this House, some of my best learning has been from my own children.

I have held or sought elected office for almost 20 years. I have been involved in decision making on a number of matters relating to same sex couples, whether it be the extension of benefits or rights, or privileges and opportunities in the workplace.

In 1995, while seeking a seat in the Manitoba legislature, I was being urged by others to stay away from the issue of the day involving the extension of rights to gay and lesbian people because it might affect a byelectoral outcome, at which point my youngest daughter said to me, “Does that mean if I have a child who is gay, you would love it less?”. Needless to say, I stepped up to the plate at that time and it is in part why I support the legislation today. I do it for our children and our children's children, to ensure that all of our children have the full benefits and rights of citizenry in this great country of ours.

I recall the words of one of the parents from PFLAG, Parents, Family and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, who said, “The rights and responsibilities and freedoms of my straight son should be the same as that of my gay son”. He went on to say, “I find it unfair that there has always been a possibility for my adult straight son to be married, but not my gay son”.

I am proud to be part of the debate here today. I am proud to be a Canadian, and indeed a Canadian parliamentarian, supportive of this legislation, as we table and vote on this landmark legislation for our country this evening.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great attention to my hon. colleague's comments. In essence she said that this is a matter of human rights and she said that people who do not support it do not support human rights. I hope I am not paraphrasing too far from that point. This is a matter of human rights, that is my understanding of the member's point, and it is absolutely essential.

My question for her is very simple. Roughly a quarter of her party's caucus is voting against human rights, if we follow that line of logic. I, for one, do not understand how she can sit in a party with people she believes are violating human rights. If a member of the Conservative Party were opposed to human rights, I would push for that person to be gone. I would go and talk to my leader.

I do not understand this disingenuousness of why she is allowed to have people in her caucus if she believes they are opposed to human rights. What should be done with the members in her caucus who are opposed to what she views as human rights?

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the strength of my party, of this great party of ours, is the ability to respect the diversity of opinion. As I said in my comments, this is a difficult issue for many people. For me it is a fundamental right, there is no question about it, but I respect the right of my colleagues to make the choice based on their faith, their experiences and their views of the charter. That is, as I say, the strength of this great party of ours.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, for many Canadians this is a contentious issue. We hold the idea of marriage as fundamental. Personally, my whole life I have seen it as a sacramental notion of marriage. When I talk with people in my riding who are very concerned about this issue, they are very much concerned about the infringement on our notion of the sacramental sense of marriage.

However, it seems to me that there has been a deliberate blurring of the distinction between the sacramental religious nature of marriage and the civil nature of marriage which exists in Canada today. For example, we have heard member after member state that marriage is procreative in nature. If we accept the sacramental basis of marriage, and I was married in a church based on that, I accept that.

When I hear members standing up saying if it is not procreative then it is not marriage, I would suggest what they are saying is that we are rewriting the civil laws of Canada. Then those who went before a justice of the peace would have to state that they were going to procreate, otherwise it would not be a real marriage.

There is another example I would offer the member. People get married at Blue Jays games. They get married jumping out of airplanes. They get married at the bottom of swimming pools in snorkelling outfits. It is not my idea of marriage, but it is a civilly defined understanding of marriage. I do not think that anybody in this House would stand up and say that members of Parliament have to regulate that.

Is the hon. member concerned that there has been a deliberate blurring of the legitimate religious notion of marriage and a very separate sense of civil marriage throughout this debate?

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague behind me has said that is what is known as a leading question. I think the member himself has in fact answered the question.

I believe that there is quite clearly a distinction in this legislation between a civil marriage and a religious marriage, and the sacrament of marriage. What we have heard and what we have learned is that many religious organizations wish to bestow the sacrament of marriage upon those same sex marriages. Those that do not wish to are not required to.

What we are speaking of here today is the extension of civil marriage to couples of same sex.

[Jack Layton, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a real privilege for me to stand in the House at this important and significant moment in Canadian history in the ongoing evolution and development of equality rights in our country. This issue is about families and it is about equal families. When we think of families, we immediately think of love.

I would like first of all to salute a group which goes by the acronym of PFLAG, Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays. It might not seem that remarkable today that there would be an organization called Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, but many years ago when this organization came into being, not only was it difficult for a lesbian or a gay person to come out to his or her family, but it was very difficult for a family member to acknowledge to their broader community that their child was a lesbian, or a gay man. In fact, this is what precipitated the enormous feeling of loneliness which is the singlemost common sentiment that I have heard over the many years that I have been associated with the gay and lesbian community. They have a feeling of being alone with nobody understanding. In a sense they are fearful of what would happen if who they really were became public knowledge, became known to their family, to their friends, to their community.

There was justification for those fears. Far from a loving environment in the early days, certainly of my awareness of the community, the atmosphere within which gays and lesbians had to live in our country was one filled with hate. That hate was illustrated.

I remember that hate as a young person growing up in my little town in the 1950s and the 1960s. I do not know whether any of my friends in the little school I went to were lesbian or gay, but I do know a lot of insults were thrown toward any young person who was judged to have any gay-like attributes. These were hateful comments. I have learned from many of my gay friends over the years what that felt like. It was like a physical assault, and oftentimes it became a physical assault.

Madam Speaker, I should have mentioned at the beginning of my remarks that I will be splitting my time with the member for Windsor--Tecumseh.

Violence and hatred were all too common and still remain when it comes to the gay and lesbian community, the transgender community, and the transsexual community. I recall in a park in my city when a librarian was killed by a group of high school students who had gone out to beat up a gay man. They beat him to death. Sadly, this is an experience that happens all too frequently.

I want to acknowledge the work of our friend, a former member of the House, Svend Robinson, for bringing legislation forward many times in an effort to have hate crimes named for what they really were. That was finally achieved not too long ago in the House.

We are looking at trying to replace hatred with a concept of love, of affection, of the fundamental equality that underlies the whole notion of love. This takes us into new territory. It takes us into the territory of understanding and defining of relationships.

At the 25th anniversary of Pride Day in Toronto a couple of days ago a couple came up to me and asked if I remembered them. I told them that they looked familiar but that they would have to help me out. They said that they had been celebrating their 15th anniversary together and at a fundraising auction had bought a tour of the city and a dinner with Olivia and me. I had very fond memories of that couple. I asked how long ago that was. They said it had been 15 years and that they were now celebrating their 30th year together.

I know from having spent some time with these men that their family has as strong a bond of relationship and love that we would find in any family. I believe they should have the opportunity to have that relationship, that marriage, recognized on an equal par with any other loving relationship in our society.

Now we are putting that into law. I must confess, I never thought I would have the opportunity to stand in this House and actually vote for such a powerful and important proposition.

As I mentioned in my speech at second reading of this legislation, when my wife and I were married in 1988, we asked that one of our gay friends speak on our behalf and dream about the day when perhaps our lesbian and gay friends could celebrate their relationships in front of all of their friends and in front of the whole community. It truly is a privilege for me today to participate in actually helping to make that dream a reality.

This past Sunday morning one of my favourite pastors, Reverend Brent Hawkes spoke to a church service held outdoors at the 25th anniversary of the Pride Day celebrations. He imagined the day 100 years from now when a historian might be writing about the struggle for human rights over the years and talked about a story that was written about the rainbow people who used to be frightened about their identity and had to essentially keep their identity concealed, because if they allowed it to become public, they would be discriminated against and ridiculed. But they fought back, not so much out of anger, but with a spirit of joy, a spirit of respect, a spirit of pride in who they were.

In fact, Pride Day itself, and not everybody knows this, emerged as a response to a huge police raid which resulted in over 300 gay men being arrested. Very few charges were ever laid, but several of those men committed suicide as a result of the exposure of their identity at the time. Pride Day emerged as a statement by the gay community that they want to be public. They want to celebrate who they are. They will not be pushed back into the corners. They will claim their place in society. Believe me, on the streets of Toronto and in communities from one end of the country to the other, gays and lesbians, their friends, their parents and the community will be out on the streets to celebrate a group of people who used to have to hide who they were, but who can now celebrate their love and their affection for one another.

It is a magnificent transition that is under way. It is one that is also very respectful of the religious traditions that compose Canada. In fact, the legislation includes quite a number of provisions to ensure that is the case, because not all of the religious communities or even all parts of every religious community feel that the religious aspect of marriage can be expressed in quite this way. There is a provision to ensure that religious diversity, which is fundamental here in Canada, should be protected. That is, of course, vitally important to the success of this particular initiative.

I am thinking about many individuals, friends and groups who have dreamed about the day that is about to come, literally within a number of hours, when finally, lesbian and gay relationships in our communities across this country will be recognized by the whole community for what they are: equal relationships infused with the kind of love that a society frankly needs more of. It pushes away the hatred. It pushes away the discrimination. It says no to second class citizenship. It invites all of us, in all of our family structures, to share in this wonderful and beautiful country in exactly the same way, with the same rights and with the same obligations and privileges that each and every one of us has as Canadians.

It is a privilege and a thrill for me to be able to offer these words in this debate and to say that New Democrats across the country will be celebrating the passage of this landmark piece of legislation.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Madam Speaker, I will make my question for the member for Toronto—Danforth fairly short. One of the members from his caucus, the member for Churchill, last night voted against the legislation and presumably will do so again tonight.

If that happens, considering how emphatically the member stated this is a matter of human rights, will he allow her to remain part of the caucus or will he stick with principle and say that people who are opposed to his idea of human rights must leave his party? Is she in or is she out?

[Jack Layton, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Madam Speaker, the vote that the hon. member is requesting my comment on has yet to take place so we will see what happens later on this evening.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources]

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member about religious freedoms. A number of people in the House have expressed a concern about religious freedoms and that this would be a reason to vote against this bill. As the member knows, one of the biggest objectives of the bill is to protect religious freedoms. In fact, the equality right is to a large degree taken care of by the courts. The bill would not change that except for those few jurisdictions where it has not been decided. The leading professors in the country and the Supreme Court already have decided that. It is inevitable.

Another major objective of the bill is to protect religious freedom which is a charter right. Could the member comment on that? This is a reason to support the bill. Some people seem to have misconstrued that as a reason to worry about the bill.

[Jack Layton, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Madam Speaker, the member for Yukon touches on a very important feature of the bill. In a way, it is a very Canadian approach because we are trying to keep track of all the various diverse elements of our society. We are trying to ensure that everyone finds their place here and that diversity is respected. When it comes, for example, to religious freedom, which is a protected freedom in the charter, the bill, including amendments, takes great pains to ensure that religious freedom is protected in the context of this new definition of civil marriage.

That makes it a particularly well crafted piece of legislation, one that reflects the efforts of members of the House from all sides, working over two year process to try to get it right. We are only human. Whether we have achieved perfection in the legislation, probably remains to be seen.

However, what is very interesting about it is the clear effort from the preamble right through to the provisions to anticipate the different aspects that need to be taken into account so that not only in an off-handed way are we speaking about equality and protecting freedoms, but we are doing it in a very substantive, direct and complete way as best as we are able through this legislation.

I thank all the members who were involved in helping us to get to this point.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Madam Speaker, our mother country, Great Britain, has one principle in its constitution. It is the supremacy of Parliament. Out of that system, every right that is in the Charter of Rights, whether it is fundamental freedoms, criminal protections, democratic rights or equality provisions, all have roots in that British parliamentary system.

I find it offensive that the leader of the NDP would say to have the majority decide issues in this country is somehow wrong. I say that is part of our tradition. That is part of our British system. Almost all of those principles come from a system in which the majority rules.

The old principle of democracy is that a member of Parliament represents his constituents, but the New Democratic principle is members represent the position of the leader come hell or high water and members have no right to represent their constituents or--

[The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)]

The hon. member for Toronto—Danforth.

[Jack Layton, NDP, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Madam Speaker, I think the good news is that despite the various bellowing, interruptions and rudeness from the other side, decency will prevail. Not only that, but the supremacy of Parliament will be realized in a matter of a couple of hours from now on the fundamental issue of human rights.

I thank the member for his history lesson because it would be good to see the supremacy of Parliament recognized and respected in the House. Perhaps the member was inadvertently or indirectly being critical of the government, which on a number of issues has not respected the supremacy of Parliament. In this assessment he and I may agree, for example, in the pursuit of international aid objectives, the Air India inquiry and the question of the appointment of certain officials. There are many cases where the supremacy of Parliament has not been recognized by the government and I acknowledge that problem.

What we are looking at is an opportunity to define, in a very important and positive way, the open relationship we want to have with all of our citizens. That is a very positive development here.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Madam Speaker, I rise today fully conscious of the historical significance of the vote that will take place later today. I do it with a great deal of pride because of the role that my party historically has played in advancing the rights of gays and lesbians in our country, but perhaps even more so, with a great deal of humility, recognizing that the work that has been done by other members of this House in the past probably far exceeds what we are doing today.

For me there are three buzzwords as to why we should support Bill C-38 and why we should pass it later today. One is the law, one is love and one is duty.

As a lawyer, I went through this process of watching the charter come into being and having it being applied, Back in the early eighties our country made a concrete, solid decision that henceforth we would have in place a Charter of Rights and Freedoms that would guarantee fundamental rights and that we would have a court system that would act as the arbitrator. It would apply the decisions in a just fashion and determine the rights when there was a conflict between the state, as there is here and has been, and a minority group in our country.

The Canadian public has accepted that method and we have now lived under it for more than 20 years. When the Supreme Court of Canada along with all the other lower courts made the decisions we have seen over the last few years, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was applied, and I believe applied appropriately, and they came to the right conclusion. For that reason, for the law of this land, all of us should be supporting Bill C-38.

The second buzzword is love. I am a Roman Catholic. I have been married to my wife for 36 years and we have three grown children. My Catholic community in the city of Windsor is a major support for me and has been for all my life. For the last number of years, my wife and I have taught the marriage preparation courses at our church. Having been elected in 2000, there were a number of things I had to set aside but that was one that I could not. It is a great benefit to our marriage, but it is also a great joy to see young couples entering into marriage. If we can do anything to help them do that, it is something that I am very proud to do.

One of my visions is that some day my church will allow those couples to not only be heterosexual but also to be homosexual. My vision says to me that some day this will happen. The Roman Catholic Church in this country and across the globe will follow the precedents that the United Church, the Quakers, the Metropolitan Church and any other number of Christian denominations have taken. This is about love; we will guarantee within our religious services that all couples will be treated equally.

My marriage is probably the most important thing to me, in terms of the relationship with my wife and my children. By allowing for gays and lesbians to marry, it will in no way detract from or minimize my marriage, just the opposite. When I do the marriage preparation courses with young couples, I want to share the relationship that we have been able to develop as a couple, as a family and as a community. Our marriage is very much supported by our community, and I want gay and lesbian couples to be able to share in those relationships.

Finally, the third buzzword is duty. I, like my leader, have known gay and lesbian couples who have suffered. If this legislation moves the celebration of their relationship just a little bit, it is worth passing. I had a friend involved in a mature gay relationship who took his life several years ago. I know what pain and suffering he went through. I know what rejection he suffered from some members of his family and I know the abuse he took in the workplace because he was openly gay.

Until we strike down all the barriers to full equality for our gay and lesbian community, until we do that, we are going to continue to have individuals such as my friend who are going to be pushed to the wall to the point that they take their lives. Bill C-38 is part of that work. I spent Saturday morning with the gay and lesbian community in Windsor. They were talking about the ongoing difficulties that the gay and lesbian youth of our country have in coming out and about the need for us to have services available to them. That is what the meeting was about.

If we put this bill into place, it is not going to be the be-all and end-all of the discrimination that this community has suffered, but it will advance the cause.

Therefore, my duty as an individual member of Parliament, as I pledged it when I spoke at my friend's funeral, is to support Bill C-38, to get it into play and then move on, again so that at some point in the future, like those young couples my wife and I helped prepare for marriage, we will be able to celebrate all marriages, whether they be gay, lesbian or heterosexual.

[The Acting Speaker (Hon. Jean Augustine)]

It being 5:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.