Debates of June 28th, 2005

Points of Order

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I did not quite digest entirely everything the hon. member had to say, but I understood the thrust of her comment to be that there was confusion between what I had said in the House and what Ms. Ellis, who was the assistant deputy minister, had said to the committee. She said that agent orange and agent purple, which is a matter of concern before the House, were sprayed on a limited area in Gagetown in 1967 and 1966 over a total period of seven days, three days in one year and four days in the other year.

I have tried my best to make the House understand that. If the hon. member has not understood that and chosen to interpret that as seven days a week for two years, I am sorry for her. I have tried to make it very clear to the House and it is consistent with what the assistant deputy minister said, that this was a matter of seven days total spraying over two years in a limited area of Gagetown.

We are working with all those concerned to find out the facts so we can get the proper response to this terrible problem. We will ensure we do that, but let us get the facts straight first. That is all I ask of the House, that we get the facts.

[Greg Thompson, Conservative, St. Croix—Belleisle, NB]

Mr. Speaker, on that same point of order, the minister is inconsistent in the testimony that he provides compared to the testimony that we heard at committee and what the people in Gagetown heard in the community when DND took their travelling road show to Base Gagetown.

The point I simply want to make is this. When the Minister of National Defence talks about a limited test area, he fails to mention the broader spray program of those years where they used agent orange and agent purple over 4,000 acres and hundreds of gallons of the defoliant in those same years that he selectively refers to as the test period.

I believe the member is correct in the sense that the minister is operating on information which is inconsistent with the documents that his department has provided and it inconsistent with the evidence that we heard at committee by some of his officials.

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, this has now become a matter of debate, but I would like to respectfully suggest to the hon. members and to the House that if we can have debate with some civil conduct with one another, I would be happy to look into this and I will get back to the hon. members with the facts.

My understanding, as I said to the House, is that there was no suggestion of any spraying of agent orange over 4,000 acres. That is not testimony that I have ever heard before.

I will consult with my officials and I will correspond with the hon. members to exact facts about what I have said and what has been said by my deputy minister to ensure that the facts are entirely clear. We will do our best to get--

[The Speaker]

I think we have heard enough on this. Is the hon. member for Acadie—Bathurst rising on the same point of order?

Apparently, the hon. member wishes to rise on a different point of order.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on this same point of order. It also concerns the question I had raised in the House about the importance of public health and safety. For years, we have been calling for the Department of National Defence to decontaminate the Tracadie-Sheila military training area, and so far, only a surface decontamination has been done. This is contradictory. We want the minister to mandate an independent group to conduct a study and fully decontaminate this military training area once and for all.

[The Speaker]

That is interesting, but it concerns another matter and is not a point of order. The problem before us concerns a contradiction of facts, obviously. The hon. member for Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke has pointed out two quotations that may be contradictory.

We have heard clarification on the matter. The minister said he will clarify any other issues that are raised on it. I am sure if the hon. member for Acadie--Bathurst has continuing problems, he will be able to correspond with the minister directly. We are not going to keep doing question period under the guise of points of order. That is unheard of.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-38, an act respecting certain aspects of legal capacity for marriage for civil purposes, be read the third time and passed, and of the amendment.

Civil Marriage Act

[The Speaker]

Before oral question period, the hon. member for Hochelaga—Maisonneuve had the floor. He has two minutes left to finish his speech.

The hon. member for Burnaby—Douglas.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the member for Hochelaga on his speech, which was a very important addition to the debate on this bill.

With his usual modesty, he undersold his importance in the various aspects of the improvement in the human rights situation for gay and lesbian people over his many years of service in the House. He mentioned that he had been present in the House while many changes had been made. He very much underplayed his own part in making those changes happen. He has played an important part in ensuring that gay and lesbian people assume full citizenship here in Canada and in Quebec. I want to recognize the contribution he has made over his many years here and tell him how important it has been to all of us in the gay and lesbian community.

I also want to thank him for mentioning the contributions of my predecessor, Svend Robinson, to those debates and to his other colleagues from Quebec in the whole move toward full equality and full citizenship for gay and lesbian people.

It has been a cooperative effort by many people, but I do not want the member for Hochelaga to underestimate the importance he has brought to this debate in the House.

The member will remember from the committee hearings that we heard from the Canadian Psychological Association. One of the things the association said was that the stigma and isolation that gay and lesbian families may experience as a result of public and systemic prejudice and discrimination may cause distress and that was a far more important factor in the stability and the adjustment of children in those families than was the fact that their parents were gay and lesbian, which seemed to have no effect whatsoever on the children.

I wonder if he could comment on the importance of Bill C-38 in light of that assertion by the Canadian Psychological Association.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my colleague for his kind words. I remember quite well when the Canadian Psychological Association appeared before the committee and said that there was no correlation between sexual orientation and parenting skills.

It was also made very clear how important it is to quell any type of stigma in the process of building self-esteem, what psychologists call psychogenesis. All the members voting in favour of the bill we are discussing this afternoon are contributing to making homosexuality respectable. In so doing, we are saying that gays and lesbians are full citizens. That is the historic dimension of tonight's vote.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, to completely honest, I must admit that it is not a pleasure to take part in today's debate on Bill C-38 on civil marriage.

I get the feeling that, right from the very start, this has been a fruitless debate where everyone has stuck by their positions and refused to budge. Both sides have said some scandalous things. Not only has the debate been polarized, it has been controversial. Some people were subject to harsh remarks and an obvious lack of respect.

Today, I want to make my humble contribution, given my great surprise that the government is incapable of addressing the right to equality and, at the same time, respecting our identities as individuals. When I said that I supported maintaining the definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman, I also said, in the same breath, that I supported the union of same sex partners and their right to equality.

The challenge facing this House and its members, as legislators, was that, in maintaining the definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman, it was also our duty to find a way to pass legislation ensuring equality for same sex couples, so they could have access to a union recognizing their choices and rights. The quest for equality does not mean we have to standardize intrinsically different realities by creating just one type of union between individuals and using the same word to describe it.

Homosexuality exists. It is a reality and no one can explain it or even attempt to. First, it is complex; second, it would be politically incorrect to do so.

Love also exists between same sex partners, and their right to happiness, as far as I am concerned, is a given. We must understand that, according to the government, Bill C-38 seeks essentially to protect two equally fundamental values: the right to equality and freedom of religion.

In order to do this, the government took the easy way out by simply changing the traditional definition of marriage—which is the union of one man and one woman—to include all unions between two individuals. Was it the easy way or incompetency? Both, in all honesty. I believe that this government took the easy way out because it is incompetent and incapable of being bold and innovative.

The second fundamental value is protection of the right of religious organizations to refuse to marry partners of the same sex, which, according to the government, comes under freedom of religion.

As the government failed to assume its responsibilities, it appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada. And the result? Essentially, the court concluded that the government had the right to authorize marriage between partners of the same sex, but that the court would not force it to do so, that it would not find that the definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman was a bad thing in itself.

The court recognized that no one could guarantee that religious freedom would be protected against the rights of minorities and that Parliament could not do anything to guarantee religious freedom over the longer term either.

In conclusion, it was left to Parliament to decide. Today, we are experiencing its desire to present Bill C-38, which runs counter to the right of respect for the distinct identity of each kind of union between two people.

Obviously, in this debate, reference is made to the unions of persons of the opposite sex and of the same sex. We are talking, essentially, about sexual orientation, and therefore sex. Perhaps we should talk about it a little.

I would like to quote from Yvon Dallaire, an expert in the psychology of sex. I quote:

Although reasonable, human beings are still animals and, as such, subject to the laws of nature, whether aware of it or not. Thus, whether we want it or not, sexuality remains a strategy of nature to ensure the survival of the species. What we call love is another of these strategies to provide the best opportunity to raise our young. Love is a biological point of view serving sexuality—

And continuing the quote:

Love becomes so important in our species probably because we spend decades raising our children, while the young of most animal species become independent a few days, weeks or months after their birth. So, it is important for humanity that the male and female not only form a stable couple but share in the task of child rearing.

It is in this concept of the focus of life reaching out to life that society over the years has defined and confirmed the institution of marriage as the union of one man and one woman.

First I tried to use a Cartesian approach in addressing this issue and to be as rational as possible. It is fair to say that men and women are fundamentally different, but happily complementary. Thus, a union between a man and woman is fundamentally different from a union between two members of the same sex. I admit, it is disarmingly simplistic.

Allow me to quote Krishna Deva, “The sexual union between a man and a woman expresses the cosmic dimension of creation...Therefore, sexual pleasure is a symbolic reflection of the infinite joy of the divinity of creation.”

It is important to mention that this statement does not make either union a second class union with respect to the other.

Based on this philosophy, it seems that each of the two unions has its own identity. To paraphrase Michel Gourges, a professor in Ottawa, I would say that the first problem is that in the name of equality rights, it seems necessary for the union between two persons of the same sex to be recognized in the same way as a union between a man and a woman.

Second, for the union between two persons of the same sex to be recognized in the same way as a union between a man and a woman, it seems that both identities need to be described the same way. If we continue in that same vein, then recognizing equality between men and women should necessarily require both to be identical.

Allow me again to quote a passage from a text by Richard Alexander, biologist at the University of Michigan, “Men and women are different on a variety of levels and much more so than we can imagine. To diminish and deny these differences is to diminish our nature and a vital aspect of our human heritage.”

As I said earlier, men and women are fundamentally different, but happily complementary.

The government's approach to this issue sacrifices the very identity of each of the unions.

The government could have achieved equality of the unions of individuals while maintaining respect for the very identity of each of the two unions: the union between a man and a woman, and the union between two persons of the same sex.

In conclusion, I want to say I too received countless positive and negative comments, and I want to share one of them that particularly caught my attention, “The time has come for you—he is talking to me—to realize that, as an MP, you must lead by example, and that voting against this bill is completely unacceptable for someone who wants Quebec to be independent and open to the world”.

It is no secret that I want Quebec to be sovereign. I want Quebec to have the right to equality with other countries, and I want the identity of Quebeckers to be respected. If I took the same approach to these two fundamental values that the government is using to resolve the issue of same sex unions, I would end up with the following absurdity: I would obtain equality rights but I would forfeit—for the benefit of the Canadian identity—my identity as a Quebecker, something I would consider unacceptable.

So, we must respect the right to equality and the right to our own identity.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member for his speech on a sensitive matter. He knows that the country and Parliament is split on this issue. Even within the gay community, there are divergent views on whether or not the definition of marriage should be changed. I think the member has articulated his arguments well.

The member knows that France adopted an approach to resolving this by extending benefits to all and adopting a civil union approach. It would appear that this has been a compromise which has been widely accepted within France.

Would the member suggest that perhaps that should have been more fully considered by parliamentarians in committee and even here in the House prior to moving forward so that we could have considered more broadly how we might be able to resolve the differences of views among Canadians?

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as I said in the speech I just gave, the government has not been innovative. It has, instead, taken the easy way. To respond to calls for the right to equality, which is legitimate, the government has taken the easy way by deciding to use the same name for all possible unions: civil marriage.

I think it would have been relevant to respect the character of each of the unions. A person really has to live in another world to not understand that each of these unions has its own identity. Consequently, with effort and some courage, efforts should have been made to give each type recognition of its uniqueness, individually and for the couple.

There was more work to do, but, unfortunately, it appears that the government did not want to invest the time required to do this work and thus to act boldly and creatively.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to the comments of my colleague, with whom I sit on the industry committee. One of the things that struck me as most interesting in this debate is the criticism that the arguments against are only religious. That somehow implies that faith based arguments are not as valid. However, the hon. member's arguments were completely secular, and completely based on a secular society, unless there was a portion there that I missed. I want to note that for the record.

I also want to ask him a question about what he thinks about another slightly related issue. We have talked a lot about religious freedom and this being abridged, that religious freedom is being held back. However, there is a secular opinion that argues for marriage as the definition of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.

I am curious if the hon. member has any comments on how this legislation and the attitude of the government toward it, that it is an absolute right and whoever is opposed to it does not support rights, could perhaps put some pressure on secular opinion that argues, as the hon. member did, in a secular way against this. I would be interested in hearing the member's comments on that.

[Serge Cardin, Bloc, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the challenge is in fact to protect the rights of individuals as such and their rights to their unions and their choices. I made a point of not using religious arguments. However, it appears, obviously, from what the Supreme Court has said, that freedom of religion is not necessarily guaranteed over the longer term. Although I made a point of not using religious arguments, I did hear debates in this House which were of a religious nature. There was a shift away from respect for individuals, which is also found in religious concepts, and which leads to respect for others and tolerance.

I should also point out that, often, religious values are close to human values. Sometimes, depending on the religion, there can be significant differences. In this case, I think human and natural values are projected as well in a number of religions. So, one does not preclude the other, but clearly, if we look only at the human side, there is a right to equality and respect for identities.

[Paddy Torsney, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Cooperation]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Vancouver Centre.

Bill C-38 has placed before Canadians an issue that is complex for some and for others it is incredibly simple. It is the ability of two people to commit to each other in marriage that is recognized by the state. Over the past few years I have had the opportunity to speak with many people across Canada and in my constituency of Burlington about the issues that Bill C-38 raises. I have read their letters and their emails. I have listened to the comments that they have made to me.

In the last election this issue was before us at every single one of the debates and there were nine. Without a doubt, some people do not like this legislation and yet others think of it as a logical extension of rights to a group of citizens who have for too long been denied equality. In many ways this debate reflects others that have taken place in this chamber, debates that extended the right of women to vote and to take their place in this chamber.

Today in eight provinces and one territory the law on civil marriage is that two people of the same gender or of opposite genders can marry. In each of these jurisdictions the courts have ruled that it is against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to deny same sex couples access to marriage in order to create a civil union and the Government of Canada agrees with that.

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is one of the defining elements of Canadian society. Section 15 of the charter came into force 20 years ago. The inclusion of equality rights in the supreme law of our country was a significant milestone, one that put Canada at the forefront of nations committed to safeguarding human rights and protecting all our citizens' essential dignity.

Section 2 of the charter ensures the freedom for officials of religious institutions to perform marriages only in accordance with their religious beliefs. In supporting Bill C-38 I am fulfilling my legal and constitutional obligations to defend the rights of all Canadians. As I mentioned, section 2 protects religious freedoms as does this bill and that was important to me and to many Canadians. I will continue to defend the right of religious organizations to marry only those who pass their religion standard to qualify for marriage.

Over the past months I have been particularly impressed by the many constituents who have taken the time to ensure that their views were heard. It is always easier for people to call when they disagree with a policy and I have certainly heard from those people, especially when hate filled literature appeared at the doorstep. While I have heard from many constituents who disagree with the bill, I have been overwhelmed with messages of support for the bill from parents, grandparents, younger people, straight people and those who were not. I have been approached by people of faith, by Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, Jews and members of the United Church.

Their message was that the government must do what is right for our community and our country. They believe their God would not want discrimination. They believe in equality and the people making their choice should be respected and accepted as equal before the law. They believe that Bill C-38 is a logical expression of our commitment as Canadians to equal treatment of all individuals as enshrined by the charter.

I would like to read from some of the messages that particularly touched me. This one is from the mother of two children. She said:

My family is strong. My Canada is accepting and does not permit or encourage hate-mongering. My Canada is one of tolerance, that welcomes everyone, that supports peace and harmony both at home and abroad.

I heard from other people who told me that they believe that the extension of marriage to same sex couples is good for Canadian society and children to the extent that stable, committed, loving couples and families are the foundation of strong communities and the ideal environment for raising children. We all benefit by including same sex couples among those who can choose the rights and responsibilities of marriage.

I heard from a minister of a church who said to me that marriage, as opposed to being a union of one man and one women, is instead an honouring of those who are engaged in lifelong, faithful, committed, faith filled relationships regardless of a couple's sexuality. He went on to thank me for showing strong leadership in the riding and across the country as we struggle with this issue.

I heard from constituents who told me that they are proud to live in a country that allows everyone to marry, that ensures that all forms of ignorance, prejudice and hate must be fought and fought hard. I heard from someone who said to me that they are sure that this bill must be supported because they believe that anything that promotes supportive and committed relationships between partners is a good thing.

I heard from people who got pamphlets on their doorstep telling them to call me and say they disagreed. They called me to say they agree. “I am very proud and thankful”, one woman wrote, “to have an MP who takes a stand for what they believe in and, most importantly, what I believe in”.

I heard from constituents who pointed out that they had been married for 35 years, have lived in my constituency for 10 years, are 57 and 58 years old. They wanted to write to thank me for supporting the same sex bill.

I heard from somebody who pointed out, “We elect our MPs. We entrust our MPs to protect minority rights, not simply to bow to the majority's sometimes uninformed and intolerant views. A society has never thrived by denying specific groups the rights that are granted to others. A healthy Canada will continue to move forward, instead of clinging to outdated and meaningless definitions”.

I heard from somebody who goes to the same church that I do, who wrote, “What would Jesus say if He was standing before two gay people? He would say 'I created you and I bless you, so live your lives with peace and love'. And thank you for being on this issue”.

I heard from others who were encouraged again by Catholic bishops to write and say that they disagreed. They wrote to say, “I believe in the separation of church and state. I agree with same sex legislation and that supporting it is the right choice. I civilly agree with the legislation and back it 100% in my belief that the rights of all concerned are being taken care of”.

These letters really did affect me as I read them. They reminded me of why we have the honour of being members of Parliament. We can come to a place like this, we can debate these issues passionately, but we can be respected and we can be treated as equals, as men and women, as people who care about issues deeply.

Bill C-38 represents all that we believe in as Canadians, that we believe in equality for everyone. It is a strong symbol of the core values that many Canadians, and I hope all members of this House, hold dear: equality, dignity, tolerance and respect for others.

Passing Bill C-38 will ensure that all Canadians can take their place in the rich tapestry that makes our country so great, that allows each of us to be the people who we are. It will allow people who wish to marry someone of the opposite sex to continue to do that. It will allow people who wish to have a same sex marriage respected by the government and in some cases by their church.

Bill C-38 is an important piece of legislation. I am proud to be able to stand in this House and support this bill on behalf of all my constituents.

[Jay Hill, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciated the hon. member's comments, even though I profoundly disagree with virtually everything that she said.

That is the great thing. We on this side at least believe in a free vote and free expression and the divergence of opinion on something as controversial as expanding the definition of marriage to include same sex couples.

We believe that the leader of the Conservative Party of Canada put forward a well thought out compromise position that the vast majority of Canadians would support and actually do support.

It is interesting that Liberal members in particular who support this bill try to frame the discussion around the issue of rights. Yet, speaking as the House leader for the official opposition, I can say that many of my colleagues wanted the opportunity to speak to this legislation at report stage. They were denied that last night when the three other parties in this chamber conspired together and were complicit in bringing forward a seldom used Standing Order to shut down debate.

The reality is that the government shut down the rights of members of Parliament to represent their constituents today as well. There will be many members of Parliament from all parties, but in particular I want to speak on behalf of my colleagues in the Conservative Party, who will be denied the right to represent their constituents and voice those concerns here during the debate, despite the fact the government House leader said there would be adequate debate. Yet, he is shutting down this debate.

The member was talking about rights. Could she address the rights of members of Parliament to represent their constituents by adequately speaking to this bill at report stage and third reading?

[Paddy Torsney, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am actually quite stunned. The member for Prince George—Peace River started his comments by saying that he disagreed with virtually everything I said. So I say to that member, does he disagree with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms? Does he disagree with equality? Does he disagree with the Canadian values of tolerance and acceptance? What part of the rule of law does he disagree with?

The rules of this House are here for all of us. He may not like the rules but the rules are being used to ensure that we get on with this legislation after months and years of discussion.

The member for Prince George—Peace River is not going to change my mind and I am not going to change his mind, although I would encourage him to read the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and to stand proudly and respect that and ensure it is respected for all Canadians, even the ones he does not like.

[John Cummins, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, when I listen to the member opposite, I cannot help feeling that maybe I am a little like Alice stepping through the looking glass. When Alice stepped through the looking glass she found herself in a world where the rules of life had changed and nothing seemed to make sense any more. At one point she encountered Humpty Dumpty sitting on a wall. He said to Alice, “When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less”. Somewhat perplexed by this, Alice said, “The question is whether one can make words mean so many different things”. Humpty Dumpty barked back, “The real question is, which is to be master, that is all”.

It seems to me that there is more of Humpty Dumpty in the member opposite than there is of Alice.

[Paddy Torsney, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting that the member would say those things because words do change meaning. It was only in 1929 that the word “person” in Canada did not include a woman. It is interesting that the member would talk about Alice, because prior to 1930 a woman named Alice could not be in this House or in the Senate because women were not respected as equal.

In the same way that the word “marriage” is changing for some people to include something that is different from their marriage, the word “person” changed in the early 1920s to allow all of us to come here and to be represented. I think that was a good thing.

[An hon. member]

It was a different issue.

[Paddy Torsney, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it was a different issue, the member opposite has said.

It is the same issue. It is the issue of equality of individuals in all their entirety, by their gender, by their sexual orientation, by the colour of their skin and by the religion they follow. That is something worth defending each and every day, and I will continue to do that.

Committees of the House

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Speaker, discussions have taken place between all parties with respect to the 11th report of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration which I tabled in the House yesterday concerning the request by the said committee for a 30 day extension to consider Bill C-283.

Mr. Speaker, I believe you will find consent for the following motion. I move:

That the 11th report of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, tabled in the House on Monday, June 27, 2005, be deemed concurred in.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Does the hon. member have the unanimous consent of the House to make that motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)