Debates of June 28th, 2005

Civil Marriage Act

[Dave Batters, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is indeed a privilege to rise tonight in the House of Commons to represent the people of Palliser and to contribute to the important discussion on Bill C-38.

As always, I would like to thank the people of Palliser for the trust they have placed in me. I would also like to thank the thousands of people who have contacted my office and responded to the questionnaire on the definition of marriage that was included in the householder I sent out to constituents this spring.

Over the past year I have received a great deal of input on the issue of marriage from the people of Palliser. It is their views as well as my own thoughts that I will discuss in the House tonight.

The feedback I have received has made two things clear to me. First, the majority of Palliser residents support the traditional definition of marriage as that of a union between a man and a woman. That is the same position held by the Leader of the Opposition and the Conservative Party of Canada, and it is also the position that I personally support. Because of that, I will oppose Bill C-38 when it comes to a vote tonight.

A second thing also became clear in the feedback I received from my constituents, and that is that they wanted to find a middle ground on this issue. They want a government that will say yes to traditional marriage and protect traditional marriage, but one that will also find a way to allow committed same sex couples to recognize their relationships and find fair treatment under the law.

I am proud to stand here today before the House as a member of the Conservative Party of Canada for the same reason that I would imagine a lot of members on the opposite side wish they were not members of the Liberal Party, because it is the Conservative Party that has consistently articulated a middle ground solution to the marriage question. This is a position that stands firmly behind traditional marriage and support for religious institutions but that also supports civil unions for same sex couples, which means fair treatment under the law.

Most Palliser residents believe that marriage is a fundamental social institution, not only recognized by law but sanctified by religious faith. They also believe that committed same sex couples have rights to equality within society that should be recognized and protected.

The challenge, then, is finding a balance. To do that, we need to find a compromise position, a position that rejects the heavy-handed manner in which the Liberal Party has approached this issue and the dogmatic, anti-democratic manner of the leader of the NDP, who will not even allow his own members to vote their conscience or to vote according to the will of their constituents on this issue.

The people of Palliser and the Conservative Party seek balance and fairness on this issue of marriage. I would like to know why the members opposite are opposed to that effort.

Despite the usual sort of inflated rhetoric we have heard from this Liberal government on Bill C-38, the same kinds of half truths and politics of fear that the Liberals trot out during every election campaign to smear their opponents, the reality is that senior members of this Liberal government, including the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, and several cabinet ministers, once articulated views in this House that were consistent with the positions being put forward by the Conservative Party today.

Why have these Liberal members suddenly changed their minds, and why should Canadians trust them now? If same sex marriage is really about human rights or upholding charter rights, as many Liberals suggest, why did the current Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, the government House leader, and the Minister of Immigration vote in favour of the traditional definition of marriage in 1999?

That motion passed 215 to 55, with the support of the current Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister. In fact, when she spoke to the motion in the House in 1999, the current Deputy Prime Minister and then Minister of Justice said:

Let me state again for the record that the government has no intention of changing the definition of marriage or of legislating same sex marriages.

I fundamentally do not believe that it is necessary to change the definition of marriage in order to accommodate the equality issues around same sex partners which now face us as Canadians.

I support the motion for maintaining the clear legal definition of marriage in Canada as the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.

It would seem highly hypocritical of the Deputy Prime Minister to criticize the position held by the Conservative Party of Canada when she herself recently supported a similar position. In point of fact, she proposed not only to support the traditional definition of marriage, but that Parliament would, to quote again from the 1999 motion,

...take all necessary steps to preserve this definition of marriage within the jurisdiction of the Parliament of Canada.

I ask the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister why they are now turning their backs on the people they stood behind in 1999. Why are they forcing same sex marriage upon the Canadian public when they themselves supported the traditional definition of marriage only a short time ago? It is that type of flip-flop, that type of inconsistency, that makes people across the country ask whether they can trust the government to keep its word and do the right thing.

The fact that the government would force closure on the bill is another demonstration that Liberals lack not only principle but they lack respect for the democratic process itself. I remind members opposite that the purpose of debate is to allow members to make an informed decision on an issue by hearing all sides of an argument. That can only happen if debate is allowed to continue, if it is not suddenly halted because it becomes politically inconvenient for the government to listen to all positions on an issue.

We on this side of the House have faith in democracy and believe in the democratic dialogue that needs to take place on this issue and on every issue. In fact, if many of the members opposite take the opportunity to listen to debate and to contemplate the position that they themselves supported in the House six years ago, many members of the Liberal government, perhaps even the Prime Minister, may realize the benefit of the position put forward by the Conservative Party and vote against Bill C-38. At the very least, I would hope that we will not see a further erosion of democracy in this Parliament through the heavy-handed tactics of the Liberal government.

The Conservative Party stance on this issue speaks to the majority of Canadians who are in the middle on this issue. Our position is that the law should continue to recognize the traditional definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others. At the same time, we propose other forms of union, whether they be called common law status, civil unions, or registered domestic partnerships, that would be entitled to the same legal rights, privileges, and benefits as marriage. This is a position that expresses the will of Canadians. It is consistent with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

The Conservative Party's position also balances the needs of same sex couples with the rights of religious organizations who hold a traditional view of marriage. Our position would ensure that same sex couples have the same rights and benefits as married couples when it comes to matters such as pensions, tax obligations, or immigration matters. Our position would also ensure that there is no federal law that treats same sex couples any differently from married couples. Our position would satisfy the vast majority of Canadians who are seeking common ground on this issue. This compromise is the Canadian way, and it is the option that only the Conservative Party is prepared to offer.

In closing, I would urge the members here today to listen to the will of their constituents--that is why we are here, obviously--and vote accordingly. Not only are Canadians looking for clear thinking and a middle ground on this contentious issue, they are looking for leadership and they want their voices to be heard.

I am proud to say that I have listened to the people in my riding of Palliser and have represented their wishes on this important issue. I am very proud to be part of a political party that is willing to allow its members to vote freely on this issue so that the voices of their constituents can be heard. I urge all members of the House to listen to their constituents when it comes time to cast their vote tonight.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for taking the time to present his views tonight. We are coming to the end of a debate that for many of us has been a very hard debate, a debate that many of us have had to cross many long and hard roads in terms of our own personal views and where we come from. At times I do not think we have risen to the occasion. We have heard hyperbole and accusations on all sides, but this is a moment where we are moving forward as a Parliament.

I would make two observations. One, I do not know if this is as historic as people make it out to be, in that in Ontario this has been the law. Just a few months ago, 70 amendments pertaining to all the definitions surrounding marriage at the provincial level in Ontario were changed without comment. Perhaps 90% of the Canadian population are living in jurisdictions where this civil same sex marriage is legal. So I do not know if we are actually crossing the Rubicon for the first time. I think we crossed it a number of years ago.

In terms of my comment to the hon. member, I have appreciated the fact that we have debated here in the House of Commons on this issue, and I would point out, and I know it is definitely against protocol, that people who have very strong views on all subjects have sat in the gallery day after day. Their level of respect for the debate, and their patience and their willingness to listen, has sometimes been a little better than some of us here on the floor. I know I am never supposed to point out the people in the gallery, but at this time, as we are closing down the debate, we should recognize the people on all sides of the debate who have sat here day after day because they care about this issue.

Is it a question? No, Mr. Speaker, it is just a comment. Thank you.

[Dave Batters, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the member mentioned that many individuals in the House have crossed some hard roads to settle on their position. He went on to say that this is an issue that maybe is not as important as some people think. He further went on to mention the number of people who sat diligently in the gallery, week after week, listening to this discussion because it is very important to them. It is certainly very important to this country.

Canadians are looking for that rational compromise, the position that the Leader of the Opposition holds, that the Conservative Party of Canada holds: the protection of traditional marriage, yet civil unions for committed same sex couples with equal rights and benefits. That is a very reasonable position. It is where the vast majority of Canadians fall in this issue. Yes, this question will be decided here in the very near future tonight.

Many members opposite have not explained their inconsistency on the question of marriage. The reason is that most of them are now prepared to backtrack on their previous commitment to preserve traditional marriage. It is this type of inconsistency that makes Canadians wonder what the government is up to with regard to Bill C-38. The Liberals have broken their promises to the Canadian people in the past on the issue of maintaining traditional marriage. Why should Canadians believe that they will not do so again on the issue of religious freedom?

These are important questions, and it is certainly something that we will be watching very carefully.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

Please note that the five hours of debate following the first round of speeches is now terminated. Therefore, we are now entering into a period of speeches of a maximum of 10 minutes, with five minutes for questions and comments.

[Judi Longfield, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Labour and Housing]

Mr. Speaker, we are drawing to the end of a debate that has arguably been very divisive. Much has been said on this important matter. I have listened to my constituents, to my colleagues in the House. I have reviewed the submissions made to the justice committee and the special committee. To a person they all held some very deeply held views. I am not certain that there is really anything left to be said that has not already been said. I have listened to the interventions from my colleagues, the member for Scarborough—Guildwood, the member for Scarborough—Rouge River, the member for Mississauga South, the member for Pickering—Scarborough East, who share my views and who have articulated their views very eloquently. I can assure members that while I might not be as eloquent in my presentation, the views that I hold are no less important, or no less impassioned that marriage is the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.

It is important that my constituents know that I do have a free vote. I have not been pressured by my caucus, by the PMO, by the whip's office or by colleagues on my side of the House who have a very different perspective, and I appreciate that. I appreciate that they understand that the views that I hold and which I am expressing on behalf of my constituents, are deeply held views. I did not come by them yesterday or the day before. It is something I grew up believing. It is something that I learned from my grandparents and parents.

I consider myself to be tolerant. I consider myself to be compassionate. I consider myself to support human rights. However, I do not support the change to the definition of marriage.

This was an issue in the last campaign. I was very forthright with my constituents. Not all of them agreed with me, but I do not think any of us will ever stand in this House and be able to say that we represent all our constituents 100%. My constituents returned me to office knowing the views that I hold on this issue. I want to thank the residents of Whitby and Oshawa and my former constituents of Ajax for the support and encouragement they have given me on this issue. Even those who do not share my views understand that I have been respectful, that I will continue to be respectful.

We have all been sent to this House to vote on issues. I do not think there has been an issue before this House that has been more divisive, where there has been such a divergence of views. For the most part, although there have been some diversions from this, it has been a respectful contemplation of our views and a sharing of our views.

There is one thing that perplexes me. There have been some, not all, but some, who feel that the only party that they can trust to protect traditional marriage is the Conservative Party, and certainly the bulk of those people sitting over there do. I look at provincial legislatures and I look at the court rulings that came down and I look at the provincial governments of Ontario, British Columbia, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick. Many of them are Conservative governments that did not appeal the decision of their courts. I am perplexed as to why, if they felt so strongly about that, they did not appeal.

In fact in Ontario, just less than a couple of months ago, there was same sex legislation before the house and the Conservatives in Ontario could not muster five people to request a recorded division on it. One of them, who will be my opposition, said that he had other things to do. He was on his way to Ottawa to speak to the leader opposite.

We are all elected to represent our constituents, to be in the House when important matters are being debated and when important matters are being voted on. I have not ever--

[An hon. member]

Where were you on Bill C-48?

[Judi Longfield, Liberal, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

I have never shirked my duties to vote. The members opposite--

[An hon. member]

Where were all your friends last night?

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

Order. I would enjoy hearing the speech of the hon. member.

[Judi Longfield, Liberal, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think I started off by saying that for the most part it has been a very respectful debate.

The member opposite asked me about Bill C-48. As a member of Parliament, I vote on the merits of each piece of legislation. With respect to Bill C-48 there were some very important issues that affect my constituents. There was funding for affordable housing. I know that some members of the Conservative Party think that the answer to affordable housing is simply to put people in jail and make it illegal to be homeless, but that is not my view. I support public transit. The communities in my area want public transit. They deserve public transit and that was in Bill C-48. Bill C-48 gives money for post-secondary education. The residents of my community have students at Durham College and the new University of Ontario. They need that.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Let the member speak.

[Judi Longfield, Liberal, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to those members' debates and I appreciated them. This is an opportunity to put on the record how we feel. I am prepared to stand and vote my conscience. I am prepared to stand and vote the wishes of my constituents and I do not have to apologize for that. I do not think I need to be heckled or abused in standing up for what I believe. I think it is critically important. Someone called me a neanderthal because I would not support same sex legislation. It was not anyone from my caucus.

I point out that it was not too long ago that we passed Bill C-23, the Modernization of Benefits and Obligations Act. That legislation actually provided rights and benefits to same sex couples, common law couples of opposite sex. It brought into line the rights, obligations and benefits, married and common law, either same sex or opposite sex. I believe that benefits have been extended and extended appropriately. I do not see the need to go on to Bill C-38, because I think everyone who is living in a loving, compassionate, caring relationship has been afforded the rights and benefits and the obligations. That is important; there are obligations as well. I do not see the need to move to the next step, because while I support equality in terms of rights and benefits, I do not support it at the expense of changing the definition of marriage. I have always believed that marriage is the union of one man and one woman.

I guess what upsets me is that after all of this debate, after everything we have been through, we are really ending where we began in a situation where this will continue to be a very, very divisive issue. We have all been elected to stand and to cast our vote. I can tell the House, and I can tell the constituents that I represent, that I am proud and honoured to stand in my place and to vote in opposition to Bill C-38 and to support, with all of my fibre and being, the traditional definition of marriage as being the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.

[Werner Schmidt, Conservative, Kelowna, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. member opposite is trying really hard to represent her constituents. She made that very clear. She at first was a little apologetic about perhaps not being as eloquent as some of her colleagues, but her heart came through. Sometimes communication is not so much contained in the eloquence but rather in the heart. I want to commend her for that.

The member is really proud of the fact that she can have a free vote. I fully concur with that. That is certainly what the Conservative Party believes in very much. I am wondering whether she would accord the same kind of privilege to the members of the cabinet. Should they too have a free vote, or are they somehow circumscribed that they may not have the freedom that she is accorded to vote the way their constituents would want them to vote, or their conscience would like them to vote? Would she accord the same kind of freedom to the cabinet as she would to herself?

[Judi Longfield, Liberal, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague opposite has represented his constituents honourably and for quite some time. I am sorry that we are going to be losing the member opposite who has decided not to seek re-election.

I say to the member opposite that I can only account for myself. I can only tell him that I will not put myself in a situation where I am compromised. I have been well treated and well served on this side and I do have the freedom to cast my vote in my own interests and in the interests of my constituents.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member opposite talked about where things go from here. I have been asked that question also. I would like to quickly make some observations.

I for one will not be giving up this fight no matter how the vote goes tonight. Personally I believe that the institution of marriage is divinely ordained. Through my own imperfections my wife does not probably think our marriage is divine, but that is a personal side, and that is something I do not impose on my constituents.

A significant majority of my constituents want to maintain the definition. They understand that this has been the unit that has carried the culture of civilizations down through the ages. Not that other couplings or other people have not also done it, but the word marriage has a distinct meaning and it should be acknowledged as that. I will continue this fight because it is our party position that marriage is recognized as being between a man and a woman. I will continue to support it because the Supreme Court did not say that the definition of marriage is unconstitutional. The court did not say that. The court did say that if there is going to be a change in the definition of marriage, it has to happen in Parliament and I appreciate the court's respect for that. Every human rights declaration in the world, including the United Nations and the Geneva Conventions, defines marriage as between a man and a woman. I am not going to go against those human rights declarations. They all say it is between a man and a woman.

I will close by saying the process has been illegitimate because members of Parliament have not been allowed a free vote. One member of cabinet had to resign today. He was not welcome in the cabinet because he wanted to support marriage. The NDP of course has gagged all of its members and said they cannot vote. We, as members, have been robbed in this assembly by not being allowed the traditional 10 minutes each for debate at third reading.

We will continue to support the definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman as long as we have breath.

[Judi Longfield, Liberal, Whitby—Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I too will continue to support the definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others. I have been consistent in my view. I agree that the court did not rule on the fourth question and that we probably could have tried harder to find an alternative to changing the definition of marriage. I will continue to share that view for as long as I am in public service and beyond. I will not be convinced that marriage is not the union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others.

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that I will probably be the final speaker in the debate this evening, I am not sure if there is any symbolism to that or not and I am not sure if that holds any special responsibility for the Conservative Party of Canada to try to encapsulate some of the feelings that we have about this legislation.

I will take a bit of a different tack tonight and talk about choices, choices that members opposite made which brought us to this point in history tonight.

Before I do, I want to put on the record that I will be opposing this legislation. I have stated that many times before and I will continue to state my opposition to this legislation in the future. I will not go into all the reasons why. Many of my colleagues have expressed the views I hold far more eloquently than I could ever do, but I do want to point out a couple of things.

I firmly believe that by passing this legislation, we start on a very slippery slope which could affect societal change in a very adverse way. I see things which have been expressed before that could come down the pike, things like polygamy and others, while hiding behind the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I am fearful that societal change could happen.

I also am a firm believer in the fundamental definition of marriage as we have known it all our lives. Marriage is and should continue to be between a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others. I was brought up in that environment and I will continue to believe that until the day I die. This is not to disrespect members who hold opposite views. I understand this is a highly volatile and emotional issue. I respect the views of my colleagues who have to taken opposite views. All I want to express is that I believe the traditional definition, as we have known it for centuries, is the one we continue to observe for the next 100, 200 years, ad infinitum.

Finally, my views are widely known within my riding. It is without question that the vast majority of my riding constituents agree with the position that I take. If nothing else, I will continue to represent the views of my constituents before anything else I do in this place.

Let us talk about those choices. What are the choices the government and the members opposite made that brought us to this place and time? First and foremost, in my opinion the government abdicated its right totally when it turned to the Supreme Court to have it make a decision on its behalf as to the definition of marriage. I am not a lawyer and I freely admit that, but I believe one thing. The Supreme Court of Canada and any court in this land should be there for two purposes. One is to administer the law. The second is to interpret the law. It is not to make the law. The government tried to turn the whole question of same sex marriage over to the courts. It hoped that the courts would give a decision that it could hide behind, and that is what the Liberals were prepared to do.

Much to their surprise, and probably much to their chagrin, the Supreme Court came back and said that it was not up to it to define marriage. It was up to Parliament. Yet those parliamentarians and the government, primarily led by the members opposite, continue to use the Supreme Court and its ruling, as indecisive as it was, to say that we have no choice but to allow same sex marriage. It complies with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and it is a matter of human rights. Other international institutions, such as the United Nations, say it is anything but a human right. That was their first choice.

Second, the Liberals had a choice in which they could have allowed every member of this House an opportunity to express their views freely on this issue. Did they do that? Absolutely not. Parliamentary secretaries and ministers were compelled to vote with the government's position, and that is in favour of same sex marriage.

However I have ultimate respect for a few of the members opposite. The courage of their convictions on this issue forced them to resign from the government and sit as independents.They did not decide to sit as a Conservative member or for any political reasons but to sit because in their conscience they could not support the government's view on this fundamental issue.

I give great credit to the member for London—Fanshawe and the member for Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont who both left the government to sit as independents. They chose to tell all Canadians, not just members of their ridings, their explicit views on this fundamental issue that was so near and dear to their hearts. That was their choice but there was another choice that was made by many other members opposite.

Over 30 members on the government side stood in this place from time to time and spoke, sometimes with passion and sometimes at length, on their opposition to the bill. However they had a choice: to either bring the government down and not allow this legislation to see the light of day, or to acquiesce to the government and allow the legislation to pass. It was their choice that allowed the legislation to pass and it will pass in the House in a few moments.

I have the greatest of respect for those members opposite who stood down because in their conscience and in their moral view they could not support the government. They did the only thing that was humanly possible within their realm of possibilities. They stood down because they did not want to be associated with a House, a Parliament and a party that would allow this legislation to pass.

I have heard members opposite say that even though they opposed Bill C-38 they could not vote against Bill C-48 because they had to vote on each piece of legislation on its own merits and that if they had voted against Bill C-48 it would have destroyed a budget that is good for all Canadians and therefore they had no choice, they had to vote for Bill C-48 but against Bill C-38. That is absolutely disingenuous.

If Bill C-48 was such good deal for Canadians why was it not contained in the budget that the government originally brought to the House two weeks before they made a deal with the NDP? This was a choice that members opposite made. However the point I want to emphasize is that even if they did not wish to speak against Bill C-48, they had a choice.

We have seen the Prime Minister back down from every threat posed to him. We have seen individuals challenge the Prime Minister with bringing his government down. Danny Williams threatened the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister backed down. Premier McGuinty threatened the Prime Minister and all of a sudden there was an extra $5 billion-plus for the province of Ontario. The NDP threatened the government by saying that if it did not acquiesce to its demands it would bring the government down. What happened? The Prime Minister and the government backed down. They blink first and they do so every time.

I say to the members opposite, such as the member for Mississauga South, who have stood in this House and tried to convince Canadians that they were doing everything in their power to bring down Bill C-38, They did not do everything in their power.

Had they gone to the Prime Minister and said that they would not support Bill C-48, the Prime Minister would have blinked and this legislation would not be passed tonight. This legislation, at the very worst, would have been deferred until the fall. The members opposite are the reason that Bill C-38 will pass tonight.

Let there be no mistake and let every Canadian understand these words very clearly. There was a choice to be made on whether Bill C-38 would be passed and brought into law or not and it was the members opposite, each and every one of them, who made their choice to allow the legislation to pass through the House tonight. Let that be on their heads, not anyone else's head. It is the members opposite who made that choice and shame on them.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I recognize the passion of that member of Parliament. He is a new member to the House and celebrating his first anniversary.

Considering the comments he has made about the hon. member for Mississauga South, he is definitely mistaken about the integrity of that individual and the integrity of all members on this side. The member knows full well that many of us on this side have taken unpopular positions with our own party in the past. Many of us have suffered consequences such as being thrown off committees. Many of us have continued to fight for what we believe is right.

The opposition members believe in politicizing this issue. If they have any credibility on this issue, it is that they would wrest this issue of marriage to what it is, something that is above partisan consideration.

The member talks about choice. Members of the House make choices each and every day. They represent their constituents, they represent their own values and they represent their own will as expressed by the many constituents who have supported them in the past.

If that member of Parliament is interested in the debate before the House today, in the few minutes that are left to us, I would ask the hon. member this. I would have thought the hon. member would want to at least ensure that we today have a guarantee that religious officials will have an opportunity to continue to practise and to express a belief, a belief which I share, that marriage is important to society as it is to my religion. Is the hon. member prepared for the next battle? While the hon. member believes the choice is here now, in my 12 years of experience, the choice will not end tonight. A battle is to come and the hon. member knows it is based on politics, as he has quite rightly pointed out.

Will the hon. member now move to try to preserve the integrity of our religious institutions which clearly are under threat?

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, let us be quite clear about one thing. We would not even be having this debate had Bill C-38 been defeated. The member and others had a chance to defeat the bill. It is not a pall on members on this side of the House that the bill will be passed in a few moments. Members opposite had a choice and they made that choice.

I only know my constituents. I am not sure what the constituents of the hon. member might be thinking about this. However, I would be willing to place a small wager that if his constituents came up to the member and asked him to to do everything within his power to stop the passage of this bill and if the member said that he choose not to because by doing so he would have to threaten to stop Bill C-48, I would suggest his constituents would want another member of Parliament who would stand up for their wishes, desires and our hopes.

The member had a choice. He chose not to make the choice.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the members of the opposition continue to talk about the traditional definition of marriage which they wish to uphold. Yet they know very well that the traditional definition of marriage has changed over the years. Up to a few years ago, a Protestant and Catholic could not get married in Canada. Is that the tradition they wish to uphold of marriage? I doubt it.

The opposition members speak about accommodation of gays and lesbians. What gays and lesbians want is not accommodation. It is full equality under the law. Equality as I have stated before is not the cherished exclusive privilege of a few. It is the cherished gift of all citizens.

Is it not disturbing and disappointing that equality could have so many enemies? Four times in the House I have asked the question, yet I have not received an answer from the opposition members. What are they planning to do with the 5,000 legally issued licences to gays and lesbians across the country? Do they plan to take those licences away from those citizens who were granted those licences?

[Tom Lukiwski, Conservative, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I suppose that question is somewhat academic or moot right now because we know in just a few moments we will not have any opportunity to answer that question.

Once again, I leave you with these words, Mr. Speaker. Members opposite had a choice. They could have taken the choice which would have defeated Bill C-38. They chose not to. Bill C-38 belongs to every Liberal member across the floor. Regardless of what they say in the House, the choice was there. This legislation will be passed because of the Liberal members opposite.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

Order, please. It being 8:17 p.m., pursuant to order passed Monday, June 27, 2005, it is my duty to interrupt the proceedings and put forthwith every question necessary to dispose of third reading of the bill now before the House.

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.