Debates of June 28th, 2005

Civil Marriage Act

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Madam Speaker, I was here for the member's speech about an hour ago, before we went to private members' business. During private members' hour he accused the Conservatives of speaking with passion on this issue. He himself had a rather impassioned speech in his support of same sex marriage.

However, the member is a lawyer. Does he not share the concern that many of my constituents do? Are people in his own riding not expressing the concerns about protection of religious freedom, which is very much under attack through this bill?

For example, is the member aware of the case of Chris Kempling, a school counsellor in Quesnel, B.C? A judgment was passed on June 13 by the appeal court of British Columbia. Mr. Kempling wrote a letter to the editor objecting to Bill C-38 based on his religious convictions. He was suspended without pay for three months. He is not expounding this in the classroom. He is simply entering a public debate about the social policy change that those folks are abrogating, the members opposite in the coalition, to change the definition of marriage. What about his section 2 charter rights, which our charter calls fundamental rights?

The party the member represents and the members opposite purport to be defenders of the charter. Are those members not concerned that the courts are not protecting rights, which are clearly defined charter rights, of others who object to this bill?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Madam Speaker, I would like to think all parties in this Parliament and in the country are defenders of the charter. It is pretty fundamental law in our country, as fundamental as we can get. I would like to think the Conservatives, the Bloc, the Liberals and we all support it, as do other small parties who are not even represented here.

To deal with the issue of religious freedom, I have read a lot of decisions over my career. I practised law for 27 years before I was elected. I read a lot of decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada. I can say without equivocation that the decision on the same sex marriage issue as rendered by the Supreme Court of Canada was as clear, as forceful and as strong as any decision it has ever written with regard to religious freedom. The judges made it absolutely clear that religious freedom would not be abrogated in any way or in any fashion.

I want to be more specific about this. The judges had never done this before in any case that I read. They went through it and asked about the this situation. Courts do not write decisions that way, particularly the Supreme Court of Canada. The judges painstakingly went out of their way to say to our churches that the legislation would in no way interfere with their rights as religious institutions. I can say that without equivocation.

I am just barely aware of the case to which the member refers. I do not see it so much as an issue with regard to charter rights as it is an issue with regard to employment and the loyalty of the individual to his employer. That may be beyond the questioner's ability to comprehend. It is a very technical area of law, but it is not a fundamental right issue or charter issue.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Madam Speaker, I want to thank my colleague from Windsor—Tecumseh for his fine speech on the theme of law, love and duty. It was an important contribution to this debate.

We are probably a few hours away from seeing the bill pass through the House of Commons. It is an important step along the way to full equality and citizenship for gay and lesbian Canadians. Could the member for Windsor--Tecumseh think beyond the passage of this important bill to what needs to happen in Canadian society, and maybe even here in Parliament, to follow up on the passage of it?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Madam Speaker, unfortunately, I only have a short period of time. My colleague from Burnaby worked very hard in the committee to get Bill C-38 to the House. I think it is fair that we are all accused from time to time of using too much passion in this debate, but it is a passionate issue.

We have a history when we have dealt with issues as controversial as this. I hope over the next decade and generation that we will come to realize that this did not imperil marriage in our country, it reinforced it. I hope all people approach it that way.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development and Federal Interlocutor for Métis and Non-Status Indians]

Madam Speaker,on this historic last day of debate in this House on Bill C-38, I am pleased to have the honour of speaking in favour of the civil marriage act.

The debate has been a long one. A full range of arguments both for and against the extension of civil marriage to same sex couples has been articulated and discussed in many forms, and not just in this House. It has also been in the legislative committee of the House, which recently re-examined the bill, and in the standing committee that discussed this question in 2003. The issue has also been discussed in the courts, in different jurisdictions, in the media, and of course in the public sphere.

I would like to use my time today to quickly review the legal framework of the bill for tonight's vote.

As the Minister of Justice pointed out this morning, the bill is organized around two very fundamental rights and freedoms in our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The first is the charter protection of equality and minority rights, in other words, the extension of access to civil marriage to gays and lesbian couples. The second is the charter protection of religious freedom, in other words, the assurance that religious groups would remain free to follow their beliefs and make their own decisions about what marriage is within those beliefs, and that no religious official can be forced to perform marriages that are contrary to his or her beliefs. Both of these charter principles are fully respected and affirmed by this bill, which is rights protecting legislation.

Courts in eight provinces and one territory have already changed the law to extend equal access to civil marriage to same sex couples. Thousands of same sex couples are now legally married in this country. As a result, the decision now for the Parliament of Canada is not only whether to extend these rights, but whether to take away charter rights from a minority group.

Some Canadians have expressed concerns that the courts have made this decision rather than the elected Parliament. Although it is the court decisions that have changed the law, it remains up to Parliament to make the final decisions.

Under the Constitution, Parliament and the courts both have important and complementary roles. It is an important part of the courts' mandate, given to them by Parliament when the charter was passed democratically, to examine current laws to determine if they meet the requirements of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, a document that Parliament itself approved through a democratic process.

At the same time, Parliament is best situated to look at the complete picture in designing a Canada-wide approach that meets both the equality and freedom of religion guarantees of the charter.

I am a member of Parliament from Ontario where this has been the law for nearly two years now, and nothing is going to change in my province. Whether we vote one way or another, the law has already been changed in my province and in many other jurisdictions in Canada. It is critical that this Parliament take responsibility to act to provide a uniformity of law across our country, rather than leaving this to the courts alone any longer.

Many members have again indicated during the last days of debate that they would prefer that the legal recognition given to same sex unions be some term other than marriage, such as civil union. The Minister of Justice reminded us this morning that civil unions are not a workable option in a Canadian legal and constitutional framework. Although theoretically possible, creating a separate institution in addition to civil marriage must be done under provincial and territorial laws, not federal laws, and so cannot respect the right of same sex couples to equality without discrimination, meaning that it would still be in breach of the charter.

As the opposition has stated, Parliament has legislative jurisdiction over civil marriage, but it does not have any jurisdiction to establish an institution other than marriage for couples of the same sex. As only the provinces and territories have jurisdiction to create civil unions, the inevitable legal patchwork caused by some 13 different forms of civil unions could well result in legal confusion, but it will not result in equality.

The Supreme Court declined to answer the fourth question in the reference and returned it to us to decide, but it did not do so in a vacuum. That is important to understand. It clearly indicated, as the member just reiterated, that Parliament must exercise its jurisdiction over civil marriage in a way that complies with the Constitution and the charter.

The Supreme Court also clearly told us that it refused to answer the question not because it disagreed, but because courts in eight provinces and one territory had already made binding decisions and thousands of couples had married in reliance on those decisions. The government is not only bound by decisions of the Supreme Court but by decisions of all courts. That is how the law changed in Ontario a couple of years ago. It was not a Supreme Court decision. It was another decision of another court of compelling authority in my province.

Unless we are willing in this Parliament to use the notwithstanding clause to overrule those findings, this is not going to change. As the Minister of Justice reminded us again, the courts' decisions did not only address the common law but two statutes of the House, the harmonization act for Quebec and the modernization act, both of which set out a legislative definition of the opposite sex requirement for marriage and which were also declared unconstitutional.

The government's commitment to uphold the right to equality without discrimination precludes the use of the notwithstanding clause which would deliberately deny the right of couples of the same sex to equal access to civil marriage. If one minority can have its rights taken away by deliberate government action, then all other rights are potentially at risk.

As Canada is a nation of minorities with a history of tolerance and acceptance of differences, this is incompatible with responsible government. I believe it will be shown tonight by a vote in the House that is the accepted will democratically elected members will make.

For those Canadians who are concerned about the impact of the bill on freedom of conscience and religion, the government will uphold freedom of religion. I would not vote for this bill if I did not think this bill would not have that effect. It is an equal charter right.

I belong to a Christian faith that supports this bill. One of the things that has been difficult to take during this lengthy debate is someone telling other people they are unchristian or they have no faith just because they disagree on a rights issue. That is not the case for many members in this chamber and I think we should be respectful of each other in the way we express our views.

The Supreme Court was categorical. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms already protects freedom of religion. This protection is clearly echoed in the bill to extend civil marriage to same sex couples now in five separate places, asserting the government's commitment to religious freedom by stating that everyone has the freedom of religion under the charter and that officials of religious groups are free to refuse to perform marriages that are not in accordance with their religious beliefs. The bill only applies to marriage for civil purposes and will not have any effect on religious marriage in any way.

To extend this protection, further specific guarantees could also be made under provincial and territorial human rights acts and marriage acts. The Minister of Justice has already asked his provincial and territorial colleagues for their cooperation in any necessary amendments that those provinces or territories choose to do. I know that legislation passed in Ontario.

As the Minister of Justice has said, the charter is the expression and the entrenchment of our rights and freedoms, the codification of the best of Canadian values and aspirations. We are all its beneficiaries, and that includes the minority groups who live in my riding and who I have been elected to also represent. It is not a question of percentages or numbers. Even if there are very few as a percentage of population whom this bill protects, it is also my job to protect them. I take that responsibility seriously.

When people come to me and tell me their stories, whether it is orally in my office or through their letters, I know that many people have been suffering because they did not feel the dignity of equality. They do not want to take anything away from someone who disagrees with them. They are not asking to take away any benefit from another person. They are just asking for the legal extension of the same benefits.

The charter defines who we are as a people and what we aspire to be. It is in that spirit that the legislation has been tabled and in which the democratic debate and exercise in democracy will be carried out. It is also in that spirit, and I would suggest my hope, for equality the rights of minorities and the protection of religious freedoms that I trust the legislation will be enacted.

This is not about social experimentation. This is about charter rights for all, including what to some are unpopular minority groups in this country.

In my home constituency, it was the same charter and protection of minority rights that I went to when I was looking at anti-terrorism provisions that we were debating. I talked to minority groups that felt threatened. I used those provisions to bring areas into the legislation and to change legislation in the House with the help of others. We brought in sunset clauses to the legislation that I had found a little close to draconian at the time.

It is that same charter that gives those individuals and those communities the protection. We do not know when we will need our charter rights. There are many countries around the world that do not have those protections. Many of us have young folks who are travelling abroad. If they get into trouble in another country, those charter protections and justice system are just not there in some parts of the world. We are very fortunate in this country. I celebrate having a charter.

The right to equality, in my view, is an extremely important fundamental right guaranteed by the charter. I know that some people at different times have made comical comments, or at least they thought they were, or they did not understand how the charter could protect them and their families. I think the majority of Canadians do celebrate this piece of legislation.

Rights are rights. It does not matter if we do not like the phrase, it is still true. None of us can, nor should we, pick and choose whose rights we will defend and whose rights we will ignore. The government must represent the rights of all Canadians equally. This bill is the only way possible to fully protect both the important charter rights involved here, religious freedom and equality. One right does not trump another right. They have to coexist.

The House has a duty not only to those opposed, but to those in favour, not only to those religious groups who do not wish to perform same sex marriages, but also to those who do.

In the discussions surrounding the 1968 Divorce Act, religious groups took sides, some urging the government not to pass the civil divorce law for Canada, fearing the impact on religious practice, and others urging the government to go further and include a ground for divorce based solely on marital breakdown.

Bill C-38 already represents the Canadian compromise, the change to the civil law, while at the same time respecting the right of religious groups to determine religious law in a way that is consistent with their beliefs. I would just as forcefully argue for that protection as I would for the equality and protection of a minority, and so should every member of this chamber.

Now, as then, it falls to the civil authority to legislate in a way that allows all religious groups to continue with their respective beliefs. The way to do that is the bill before us today. I fully understand, and I do not think any member could have worked in this House for a number of years without understanding, that this issue of extending equal access to civil marriage to same sex couples is one that evokes strong feelings. That is a given. A number of my constituents as well as my own circle of family, friends and colleagues have struggled with this issue.

I want to remind those on all sides of the debate that there is a human face on this issue at all times. It is not just about rhetoric or about words. It is not just about invoking the Charter of Rights. It is about the people inside of those rights. What we decide here will impact on the lives of real people.

I have talked to many who have felt that some of the debate over the time that we have debated this have used words and thoughts in the debate that have hurt them. Some gay and lesbian couples felt that some of the debate had crossed the line. I think that was unfortunate and I hope that none of it was intended. I would like to think none of it was intended. I think sometimes some people get carried away.

Some, I know, contend that the small number of gay and lesbian people just proves that this group is so small that they do not warrant the attention and consideration being given to them by the courts and the legislatures throughout the country.

As the Vanier Institute of the Family pointed out in its presentation to our House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights when it studied this issue in early 2003, this argument is dangerously misguided.

A democratic and a just society must measure itself, not only by reference to the majority but equally by reference to how it respects each and every individual citizen, regardless of their differences, their heritage, their religion, their abilities or disabilities, their gender, their race or their sexual orientation. Surely history has taught us something, that we cannot distribute justice or fairness on the basis of numbers.

Others are concerned that gay and lesbian couples do not remain in long term relationships. While we may have little scientific data on this to date, it is interesting to note that all the court cases against the government seem to be couples who have been together for 30 years or more. Sure, not all same sex couples may stay together for 30 or 40 years, but as long as some do how can they be treated any differently on that basis?

Are children part of these couples' lives? The 2001 Canadian census indicates that 15% of households headed by lesbian couples had children, versus 3% among male same sex households. That means that at least 3,000 same sex couples are raising children in Canada today.

The children become members of these families in a variety of ways. The Vanier Institute of the Family reviewed the research available and noted that the majority of these children were born into a mother-father unit that ultimately ended in divorce or separation and the parent with care of the child then re-partners in a same sex relationship. That is not the only scenario but it is one that does occur.

How are the children faring in these households with same sex parents? This is a question of great concern to many Canadians, and it should be. They can accept that adults should be free to choose partners of their choice but they are rightly concerned about the children being raised in these relationships.

While no large-scale, definitive study exists, all the research to date suggests that the quality of parenting is a more important factor in the success of children than the sexual orientation of the parent. Indeed, as we all know, most children do not want to know about their parents' sex lives or even that they have a sex life. Maybe if one is in Parliament, one does not, I do not know.

However what makes a good family good for a child is not just the make up of that family, the married couple, the common-law, the single parent, the extended family, the only child, but that the family loves, cares and supports these children and, by extension, the community has to love, care and support these children.

We all know instances where a married heterosexual couple may be the best place for children to be raised but we all know instances where it is not. Whoever their parents are, all children need love and supervision. They all need to be sheltered, fed, taken to school and so on.

Children need and deserve the full support of government, not only for themselves but for their real families, not some make-believe family but their real families existing today on every street in Canada.

[Werner Schmidt, Conservative, Kelowna, BC]

Madam Speaker, I would like to make certain comments on some of the points the member has raised. The issues I want to address concern the ethics, the legality and equality.

I think the hon. member suggested that civil unions somehow would not be a legal situation under the charter. I would like to suggest that in the proposed legislation, we are dealing with committed adult relationships and these relationships are different. A man married to a woman is one relationship and two people of the same sex together is a different relationship.

I do not think anyone in this place would argue the fact that men and women are different and yet before the law they are treated equally. It is the treatment that is the important thing and this is where the equality rests, not in the fact that they are the same.

When it comes to human relationships I think the mistake is often made that somehow equality means the same. Well I know and I am sure everyone in the House knows that men and women are clearly different, and that the relationship between a man and a woman who are married and two men or two women together in a relationship is different. What is significant is that it is the treatment they receive that makes them equal.

The obligations, the privileges and the benefits given each couple are the things that ought to be equal between the two particular arrangements. However there is nothing wrong with identifying these relationships as being different and they can be separate.

I know some would argue that if the situations are separate then they are not equal but that simply defies the reality of life. Men and women are different. Men and women can be treated equally before and under the law and there is nothing wrong with that difference between men and women. In fact, that is a good difference.

I would like to suggest that in recognizing same sex unions and according them the same rights, privileges, protections and obligations as heterosexual couples, the equality argument falls away. It is perfectly consistent with the provisions of Canada's Constitution because it shows respect and tolerance and is therefore clearly non-discriminatory. The recognition clearly accepts that while different, same sex couples are and should be treated the same as heterosexual couples.

The issue is one of a clear differentiation on the basis on which sound policy and laws can be formulated. Hence, the issue is to recognize that in adult relationships and relationship laws, the equality is not found in sameness of relationships but rather in the equality of the treatment of those relationships.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Madam Speaker, the gist of the member's comments had to do with equality. Equality also brings in the concept of dignity of an individual.

I am of an age where I can remember in my childhood that in some states in a country to the south of us there were some separate but equal things called water fountains; fountains for white people and fountains for black people. The equality in that situation was not there. Because they both delivered water did that make them equal? Absolutely not. Can anybody in this Chamber tell me that they were equal? Would anybody be proud to say that was the same level of dignity?

What the member just said could have the same results. Although they would get all the benefits, they would not be getting the benefit of a civil marriage. That is what is missing and that is what we will correct.

[Randy White, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to have this put into some perspective because I am sure a lot of Canadians are wondering where politicians are taking them these days.

The House of Commons lowered the age of sexual consent from 16 to 14. It is currently changing the definition of marriage. It is studying the legalization of prostitution. It currently has Bill C-17 in the House of Commons which would decriminalize marijuana and ultimately legalize marijuana, and a bill to legalize euthanasia is also in the House of Commons.

Does the member feel that these issues are rightfully in the domain of the House of Commons, where there is voting by party politics, by whip votes or from a mandate to vote a certain way? Does she not think it would be better, for the safety, security, and peace of mind of all Canadians, to put issues like these out to Canadians in a public referendum where they could have a say and we could get away from the obvious partisanship of party politics in the House of Commons?

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will put this exactly in perspective. This is the member who, before the last election, an election that I fought partially on this issue, spoke about the charter in very derogatory ways, in my opinion. That is why the government has allowed me, as a member of the Privy Council and as a parliamentary secretary, to have a free vote tonight. I will be voting in favour of this.

[An hon. member]

Answer the question.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I will not try to out yell you. I am sorry but I will not fall into your trap. The perspective is that--

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

Order, please. May I remind the hon. member that comments have to be made through the Chair.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I apologize, Mr. Speaker. I just want to say that my election was a democratic election, as it was for every member in this Chamber.

Since 1993 I have been very clear on my stance in every vote in the House and in every discussion with my constituents.

Members of a religious delegation opposed to this legislation came to my office. They wanted to demonstrate in the parking lot. I invited them in. I listened for over 30 minutes. We talked and I respectfully told them why I would not vote their way.

I also know that they are my constituents and if there was an infringement on their religious rights that they could come back to me and we would be there to do that.

[John Cummins, Conservative, Delta—Richmond East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member opposite addressed the issue of the Supreme Court's comments on this particular issue. In particular, she mentioned the court's refusal to answer question four. She is fully aware that in the Egan case the court did comment directly on marriage and it recognized the traditional nature of marriage, and commented that marriage was by nature heterosexual. That was the Supreme Court of Canada.

We have lesser courts in this country who have gone the other way, and some would say that their interpretation or view of the charter is that it is a living tree. The problem with that argument is that whenever a court or politicians use this notion of the Constitution being a living tree, they are intending to take off on a path that was unintended by the Constitution.

They seem to forget where that notion of a living tree came from. Let me remind the member opposite that it did come from the Persons Case that went to the privy council in London. In that particular case, although women had been allowed to vote for years, our Constitution had always been taken to mean that only men could vote. The Persons Case was heard in about 1930, long after women were voting, so the issue became whether the actual words in the Constitution would prevent their appointment as senators, and the court said no. It used this notion that the Constitution was a living tree and could tolerate the interpretation that persons meant women, so it is not a big stretch for us today to say that persons means men or women.

My comment to the member opposite is that the living tree doctrine is dangerous when judges take it to mean licence to rewrite a statute or the Constitution, but very workable if they are simply trying to make sense out of a word that might have several interpretations, as the word person would.

I wonder if the member opposite would concur that it is dangerous when courts take these liberties and use as justification the notion of a living tree, rather than using that notion of a living tree as it was meant in this case back in 1930.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the fabric of Canadian society is very complex. Canada today is different than it was 20 years ago. We can look at a city like Toronto which is now the most multicultural, multifaith city in the world. We are a changing society. Living tree concepts and our laws cannot stagnate in time, but we do have fundamental charter rights that have the foundations of what Canadian values embrace as a society. We are proud, most of us, in this country, and celebrate that we have charter rights and charter freedoms.

That is the Canadian way of balancing different priorities. My priorities or my constituents' priorities can be very different than someone I do not know, but that does not invalidate their priority, it does not denigrate from where they want to be with their faith or their beliefs and actions.

I would not like it if this bill tonight took away from anybody's rights. I do not see this as taking away a right. I see it as extending a right. That is what I believe. I will be very proud of my vote tonight, and I know that some people will disagree, but that is fine because I will live with my conscience and I will do what I think is in the best interests of all of my constituents. I appreciate that the members opposite have the right to vote in the opposite way, but it is going to end with a vote. It is not going to end with another delay.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I seek the unanimous consent of the House to table a committee report.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Marcel Proulx)]

Does the hon. member have unanimous consent to table the report?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

Committees of the House

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present, in both official languages, the seventh report of the Standing Committee on the Environment and Sustainable Development. The report is entitled “Finding the Energy to Act: Reducing Canada's Greenhouse Gas Emissions”.

In accordance with the permanent mandate under Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on November 23, 2004, the committee undertook a study and heard hearings on the subject matter of Canada's implementation of the Kyoto protocol and agreed to it on Tuesday, June 28.

The committee held nearly 40 meetings with respect to Kyoto. I am very pleased to present this report on behalf of the committee. I would like to thank all members of the committee. This is a report that outlines a strategy for the implementation and the accountability of the committee as part of it.

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-38, An Act respecting certain aspects of legal capacity for marriage for civil purposes, be read the third time and passed, and of the amendment.

Civil Marriage Act

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Speaker, from all across my riding, and across Canada for that matter, I have been receiving letters, emails and phone calls that have been asking me these questions. With all the other problems, concerns and disparities that we have in Canada, what on earth possesses the Liberal government to be so obsessed in its drive to put through Bill C-38? Is this more important than our health care system which is practically in a critical condition itself? Is this more important than the poverty that we have in our country, and the families who are living on less than poverty levels of income trying to raise their families?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development was just here and she spoke. I must ask her, is it more important to talk about Bill C-38 than the fact that despite the hundreds of billions of dollars that have been put into aboriginal programs over the last 30 years, the quality of life among aboriginals in our country, particularly on the reserves and in the cities, is at a worse level than it was 30 years ago? Is it more important than that?

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Palliser.

I think the people who have been sending me these questions have a right to ask them and the government has not answered. Why is this so important to the Liberals? What is their hidden agenda?

I want to talk about three issues. I want to talk about intolerance, religious freedom, and how the government has abrogated its responsibility to uphold decisions that are made by Parliament.

I watched the debate today and was appalled at the way that the word intolerance fell from the lips of government members who are supporting the bill. They were calling anyone in opposition to the bill intolerant because of us in the House, who dared, by reason of our own personal conviction, by reason of our own faith based belief, or by reason of the input we have had from our constituents, stand in the House and defend the traditional definition of marriage. Or, in the case of our citizens, who dared to send emails to the Liberals, the Bloc and the NDP members who are supporting the bill, they too were branded as intolerant.

The hypocrisy of it is appalling after seeing the greatest display of intolerance, perhaps if I can use that word, by the Prime Minister himself when he showed that he was and is intolerant of any of his cabinet members who would want to have a free vote, threatening that they would be dismissed from cabinet if they dared to vote against the bill.

The proof came today. The intolerance of the Prime Minister was shown today when one of his cabinet ministers, because he was so convicted that he had to speak and vote against the bill, took the personal step to resign from cabinet in order to do so. Otherwise, he was not permitted. Those members over there who want to talk about intolerance just have to look around their own caucus and in particular at the Prime Minister's Office. There is the intolerance.

There is, being perpetuated by those who support this bill, what some have referred to as the big lie when it comes to religious freedom, the big lie that is being used to convince people that there is some protection for religious freedoms in this bill.

The government is using the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to say that of course religious freedoms will be protected because they are protected in the charter. I would suggest that one has only to look at the case of Chris Kempling from Quesnel, who is a constituent of mine and who, because of his deeply held religious beliefs, decided that he wanted to speak out against the same sex marriage issue.

He dared, because of his personal beliefs, to write an article in the local paper saying that same sex marriage, in his opinion, was wrong and that this country should uphold the traditional definition of marriage. He was, for his efforts, given a three month suspension by the B.C. Teachers' Federation, which he appealed in a courtroom.

He said that he was protected by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms because it says in there that it guarantees him freedom of religion and freedom of speech. His appeal was lost because, the judge said, notwithstanding that the charter guarantees freedom of religion and freedom of speech, he felt that society was able to place--and by society he meant the court--a reasonable restriction on my constituent's fundamental rights of freedom of religion and speech.

The Liberals, the Bloc and the NDP are telling us not to worry about it, that we do not have to specifically put it into Bill C-38 because, after all, the charter is going to protect us. Let us ask Chris Kempling from Quesnel, B.C. whether the charter protected him. It did not, in the same way that the charter will not protect one's freedom of religion or, in this instance, freedom of speech, no matter how the big lie is perpetuated by the supporters of this bill. It will not.

Let us just ask Bishop Henry of Calgary about it. Because he dared to speak out against the same sex marriage bill, Bill C-38, because he dared, he got a visit, not from any of the Liberal members as they are too sly for that, but from the Revenue Canada people, saying in essence that he might want to calm down his talk about his opposition to same sex marriage because he represents a charitable tax organization, after all, and quite frankly there might be some members of the Liberal Party and some in government who might think that he is using his tax status in an inappropriate political way. Freedom of speech is not there in the charter.

I said that the government had abrogated its responsibility in defending parliamentary decisions. It did. The lawyers over there will know about the 1919 Nickle case, which was successfully used by the Chrétien lawyers to block Conrad Black's quest to become a knight. The Nickle resolution says that no Canadian citizen can be made a knight of the British Empire.

Lawyers argued that it was a duty to defend the decisions of the Parliament of Canada in any court where an issue conflicted with parliamentary decisions.

The decision stood, by a vote in 1999 and one in 2003, that this Parliament recognize marriage as the union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others. When the lower provincial courts made their decisions, the government did not challenge them. It was the government's responsibility to challenge those lower court decisions at the Supreme Court. It did not. The Liberals walked away from it. They abrogated their responsibility to the people of this country and to this Parliament. Shame on them.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I respect the member's right to talk about anything he wants to talk about, but I wonder if he would care to make any comment about the attack that is put on marriage by this bill and about the fact that it de-links children from their parents in that the consequential amendments replace biological parent with something called a “legal parent”. Would he care to comment on the implications this will have for the family?

Also, would he care to make any comment whatsoever about the serious problem we have with judicial activism and particularly now the threat that will be forthcoming with regard to the challenge to the protection for religious beliefs and particularly for those religious groups and their right to refuse to perform same sex marriages?

These seem to be substantive issues within the bill that he has not yet commented on. Maybe he would like to make some points.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Speaker, marriage is of course understood as a heterosexual and procreative institution existing independently from the state. It always has been an indispensable bastion of freedom in our civil society, going back 140 years.

I believe, of course, that marriage is fundamental to our society. People of the opposite sex marry, bear children, and nurture those children in the best way they can. That is the way this world has been. It cannot continue to exist without that process taking place, that union of a man and a woman.

I believe that Bill C-38 really has nothing to do with the rights of minorities. At this point same sex couples are pretty much granted every legal right we can imagine. They are recognized for taxation purposes, for pensions and for everything else that heterosexual married couples are.

I believe that this is the beginning of a slippery slope. Notwithstanding what the supporters of the bill claim, which is that everything is going to be okay, I believe that if Bill C-38 passes it is going to have a direct impact on our society. It is in direct conflict with the traditional way civilization has grown. It is in direct conflict with the traditional foundation of society: man, woman, children, jobs, mortgage, bills, the way our society was built and built to a strength. It seems to me that Liberal prime ministers of the past and present have for some unknown reason done everything they could to break down the strong foundation that built our society.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources]

Mr. Speaker, before I ask my question I would like to go on record as saying that I have asked a number of times if anyone's mind would be changed in this debate if we carried on with it. Not one member of Parliament has said that it would, so it is good that in 45 minutes we are going to vote.

The member talked about emails he has received from people across the country. During the last 45 minutes of this debate I would like to get into some input from youth. I will ask the member what input he may have received from youth.

I will read from an article written by a young girl who is the granddaughter of one of my constituents, Sydney Walsh, from the April edition of the Lancer Ledger, in order to put some of the opinions of youth on the record.

I will read a very short part of it: “The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees that everyone has freedom of conscience and religion, as well as thoughts, beliefs, opinions and expressions. The Charter discriminates against no one, so why should we as a society discriminate against same sex couples? Same sex couples should have the right to be married. The Charter of Rights and Freedoms was designed as a balancing act between the rights of society and the rights of the individual. Since same sex marriage does not infringe on anyone's rights, there should be no reason why it should not be allowed”.

I am curious as to what input the member may have received from youth.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not usually discriminate among youth or seniors or middle aged people. Every opinion is as important to me as any other. I will tell the member that of all the emails, letters, phone calls and visits to my office, the percentage of people in my riding that are opposed to this bill is in the high nineties. I feel very proud in representing that consensus of my riding. Of the number of written surveys I have done since 1999 that were returned to me, it was quite a substantial number every time, over 80%, opposed same sex marriage.

Whether it is youth or seniors or in between, I can tell the member that in my riding the opposition to this bill is overwhelmingly strong. I also suggest to him that across Canada opponents of the bill are in the majority compared to those who support it.