Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-305, which has been before Parliament before. I took the opportunity to look back at some history and noticed that this bill passed at second reading and was sent to committee where it died. Some members of Parliament are fortunate enough to get high enough in the lottery so their bills can be considered, but I have a great deal of sympathy for those members who face the worst possible outcome of not getting them through the entire legislative process before an election is called.
Bill C-305 raises an important question. I think the member has a reasonable argument but he will need to convince members about some of the differences that have occurred since the time we entered into a tax treaty with the U.S. in 1984.
Before I became a member of Parliament, I had a CA practice in which I did tax returns mainly in Canada but had some experience with United States returns. The member will know that the tax systems between the two countries are very different. The Americans charge a capital gains tax on the sale of a home, but they also have mortgage interest deductibility. They have deductions for taxes paid to other jurisdictions. They also have joint filing for couples. However, members should understand that it is not the filing of one tax return for two people using the same tax tables as one person. It is a separate schedule of taxation for joint filers. It is not exactly seamless but at least it is a bit better than what we have here.
I would not even try to do a quantitative analysis about the tax burden between Canada and the U.S. Our health care system is paid by our tax dollars, whereas it is not in the United States. The cost of buying health insurance in the United States is very prohibitive for many people. I just want to point out that there are some differences.
Interesting enough, the tax treaty treatment of U.S. social security payments received by Canadians who worked in the U.S. and are eligible for U.S. social security are outside the ambit of the traditional tax treaty treatment.
Something that is important for members to acknowledge is that this is not a simple issue. It is a complex issue. Members need to understand where we started so that when we look at where we end up to determine whether or not there is an inequity compared to where we started as opposed to whether there is an inequity compared to somebody else? That happens to be the crux of the issue here.
The member's argument has basically been that people receiving U.S. social security were treated in a certain way back in 1984 when in fact they were taxed in the country in which they were resident. Any payments received from the United States were taxed in Canada. It had a 50% exclusion rate which meant that if someone received a U.S. social security benefit of $100, they person only had to include 50% of that in his or her Canadian income tax return.
That changed in 1996 when the third protocol was negotiated. It was decided to change where the taxation would occur. It was changed so that a Canadian receiving a U.S. social security benefit would actually be taxed in the United States which had a withholding tax of 25.5%. I could go into the details of how the differences were worked out but I do not believe that is the fundamental issue.
The member referred to what happened on April 9, 1997 when the fourth protocol was negotiated with the United States. It reverted back to where the tax benefit would be taxed in the country of residence. However, it did not restore the 50% exclusion rate that was in the 1984 tax treaty.
Therefore, we have a situation where in 1984 only half of U.S. social security payments were included in Canadian income taxes. In 1997 it was all included, except for a 15% exclusion. This was basically to mirror the withholdings that generally would happen when a United States corporation would pay, for instance, investment income to a Canadian where there was withholding at source.
If we look at some of the machinations that the finance department had to go through in terms of the tax equity between two countries in dealing with payments to non-residents or to foreign jurisdictions, we can see that it really is not very easy to explain. One of the things I conclude from this is that the inequity the member is referring to is the fact that back in 1984 there was a 50% exclusion rate. He would like to have it back now because in both instances individuals were taxed in the residence of the person who received the money. That is a non sequitur. It does not follow because there were other things that were taken into account.
The inequity is not an inequity between a Canadian receiving U.S. social security payments and an American receiving Canada pension plan payments. Argument has been made that, and if we look at the Debates from the last Parliament, the Americans have a different system. They have to make $59,000 before they have to start including any, and even then there is an exclusion rate.
Why are we comparing, or trying to compare, Canadian tax burden to U.S. tax burden for the same receipt of U.S. social security payments? It is not possible to do that in a clear fashion. In fact, here is the real comparison that we should be looking at. If a Canadian receives a Canada pension plan of $100 and has to include that $100 in his or her income tax return, why is it that a Canadian receiving U.S. social security payments should only include one-half of the amount in the Canadian income tax return?
In fact, two people receiving a $100 benefit, one paid by Canada and one paid by the U.S., would be treated totally differently. In fact, the inequity that is being proposed by this bill would increase, but if we make the argument about a Canadian receiving U.S. social security compared to an American receiving social security, it is suggested that we should have this changed so that it gets us back to what we had in 1984.
Members can see this is very convoluted. Having said that, this issue has gone on for some time and I do know that the member and many members in this place have expressed some concern about the tax burden of Canadians who receive foreign pension payments. It is not possible to actually explain it to members in the two hours of debate.
I suspect that there may be an appetite for this matter to go to the finance committee to get the full details out. The finance department has to explain all of the implications that it took into account in negotiating for separate protocols since 1984 on how to deal with these matters.
Further, I would respectfully suggest to the member that in consultation with finance officials, he may be able to provide members with some analytical samples which could show, in very simple terms, the difference in the tax burden today between a Canadian receiving CPP and a Canadian receiving U.S. social security payments.
He may also want to consider that, in my view and I think many share it, the best outcome of a private member's bill is to get the government to adopt it as its own and to make appropriate other consequential changes, or maybe inconsequential changes, which will make absolutely sure that there is as little inequity between taxpayers as possible.