Debates of Nov. 3rd, 2006

Criminal Code

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

It being 1:30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's Order Paper.

The House resumed from September 20 consideration of the motion that Bill C-222, An Act to recognize and protect Canada’s hunting, trapping and fishing heritage, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Heritage Hunting, Trapping and Fishing Protection Act

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to Bill C-222, an act to recognize and protect Canada’s hunting, trapping and fishing heritage which was brought forward by the member for Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette. He has put forward this bill for reasons aimed at ensuring Canadians are able to continue to hunt, fish and trap on federal and public land and waters.

Inland fishing is a shared federal-provincial jurisdiction. Fishing in the Northwest Territories, Nunavut and Yukon is exclusively under federal jurisdiction. Hunting and trapping are exclusively under provincial-territorial jurisdictions.

The bill is essentially flawed in that it speaks to rights held under provincial jurisdictions. I recognize that this is a private member's bill and would not necessarily hold any party to its passage. It is somewhat meaningless in this regard because it speaks to rights that are held under provincial jurisdictions, which my party wants to protect. We certainly want to protect provincial jurisdiction over these rights in my jurisdiction.

In the case of my riding, most of the hunting, fishing and trapping rights are held under comprehensive land claims in areas where land claims have been settled with the various land claims bodies and are represented in some cases by councils, along with the territorial government. They determine the disposition of wildlife in those areas.

Hunting, trapping and fishing in the Northwest Territories is significant in every respect. As a sustenance part of our economy, it is very important. All the small communities throughout my riding rely heavily on the ability of their members to hunt for food to keep their cost of living in line, to preserve their culture, and to really respect the way the land should be protected through use. That is an important point.

Hunting, trapping and fishing are very important to people in my riding. They are not something with which we trifle. They are not something we use as political tools between one group or the other. They are essential for the conduct of ordinary life.

Bill C-222 would create a right for non-aboriginal people to fish, hunt and trap, and place restrictions on legislation designed to manage fish and animal populations. Right now only aboriginal people in some areas have the unfettered right to hunt, fish and trap, and those rights came through constitutional protection. These rights came from their history and their heritage over thousands of years.

They are a recognition of the essential part of their life which has gone on for many generations and has produced a consistent result on the land, a result that, in many measures, was in harmony. To say that man can ever remain in perfect harmony with his environment is something that we all have to consider every day.

Right now, our relationship with the environment is changing quickly. We see this all over the country. Even the aboriginal people who run the hunting and fishing councils in the Northwest Territories recognize the extreme problems that our environment is facing in terms of how the changes in climate are affecting our wildlife.

Interestingly enough, in the last six months, the Tuktoyaktuk game council passed a motion to restrict the harvesting of caribou on its land. This is a major step. This community, which so heavily relies on harvesting caribou, has said to its people, “Look, we have to take steps here. Our herds are in precipitous decline. We can't continue to hunt at this point in time in the fashion we have in the past”.

The aboriginal people are taking hold of the issues that surround them in their traditional rights and in the way that they deal with the land and the environment. I think that speaks well to their governance. Their governance comes through constitutional rights and through recognition of their inherent rights and from that, through their comprehensive claims their ability to govern themselves.

These things are ongoing as we speak. This is part of how the harvesting of wildlife is evolving in my jurisdiction.

Our territorial government is also concerned about the complete caribou herd across the north. The decline that we see in one area is mirrored in almost every other area. The caribou are a great indicator species of change because the energetics of their food cycle and their breeding cycle are so linked to vegetation, climate, and their ability to survive in very inhospitable terrain.

I think quite clearly that the intent of the bill to preserve hunting and trapping rights for other Canadians needs very careful examination right now.

I would be the last one to in any way impinge on people's ability to hunt, fish and trap but, at the same time, there are so many issues surrounding our environment, the animals on our land, and our ability to preserve those species for the future. Putting more legal words in the way our governments work across the country is very difficult at this time.

I sense the member's emotional response to this bill and as a person who lives in rural areas, I certainly recognize that.

In some rural areas, of course, climate change has increased the availability of animal populations and hunting in some areas could probably increase. We could hand out more permits and we could do more hunting. This would be a successful effort in many areas.

Once again, it comes down to regulation and to understanding of the animal populations of the area, not going back to any particular right or privilege that one group or the other may have on the land. That is my point on this bill. I wish the hon. member well with his intentions. I will leave it at that.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, it is a great honour to rise in the House today to support the goals of my Manitoba colleague in Bill C-222, An Act to recognize and protect Canada’s hunting, trapping and fishing heritage.

I was the first MP to jointly second the bill in April of this year. The member for Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, our neighbour to the east of my constituency of Yorkton—Melville, is to be commended for his efforts to preserve the practices of hunting, fishing and trapping, practices so central to our history and tradition that they form an integral part of the fabric of our culture.

There is a growing list of 358 municipalities from every province in Canada that support this groundbreaking piece of legislation. I am eager to engage the efforts of the 77 MPs and senators who comprise the newly formed outdoors caucus, representing all four political parties in this House and all 10 provinces and two territories, and to discuss how we can best accomplish the goals described in Bill C-222.

We should promote our hunting, fishing and trapping heritage activities, because the men and women who use the outdoors are most interested in preserving the environment. Many groups are seeking to shut down these three traditional heritage activities. Acknowledging and using the considerable resources of the federal government to promote our traditional heritage activities would go a long way to protecting them.

There is no question that hunting, fishing and trapping are heritage activities. Where would Canada be without them? All of the exploration and settlement of Canada took place mainly because of these three heritage activities, but where do we find recognition of this fact in the old government's websites? Nowhere.

Hunting, fishing and trapping do not appear in the 221 items listed in the site map of the Canadian heritage department's website. Hunting, fishing and trapping are not a part of Canada Tourism's website. Hunting and trapping are also missing from the Canadian Tourism Commission's website and just 12 fishing lodges are listed. The section on wildlife does not even mention hunting or trapping.

Nor is there any mention made in any of these three websites with respect to gun shows, shooting competitions, skeet shoots, historic re-enactments, gun clubs, fish and game organizations, wildlife federations or trappers associations, all essential elements of preserving the heritage activities of hunting, fishing and trapping. These three activities are essential to wildlife management and habitat conservation and rehabilitation.

This certainly indicates a lack of recognition by the old federal government, which Bill C-222 proposes to address. This lack of recognition begs the question: how can we protect these heritage activities if we fail to acknowledge that they even exist? In failing to acknowledge these heritage activities, the old government also failed to acknowledge the huge contribution that hunting, fishing and trapping make to Canada's economy and jobs.

Sustenance hunting is an important part of the lives and survival of thousands of aboriginal and non-aboriginal Canadians, but sport hunting is where the real money is at. In August of this year, the Library of Parliament completed a report entitled “The Benefits of Firearms Ownership--Hunting and Wildlife Management”. In this paper, Library of Parliament economist Tony Jackson wrote:

The Federal-Provincial-Territorial Task Force on the Importance of Nature to Canadians...is made up of agencies responsible for the environment and tourism.

In 1996, 10.3 million Canadians aged 15 and over took part in outdoor activities, with 4.2 million fishing and 1.2 million hunting. According to the survey, men and women enjoy the Canadian outdoors equally; however, 85% of recreational hunters are men, as are 66% of recreational fishers.

Respondents were asked to report their detailed expenditures for mainly nature-related activities over a 12-month period. In just under half of the reported trips, the participants undertook more than one activity. The survey estimated that over $7.2 billion was spent on outdoor activities in natural areas in 1996, including $1.3 billion on wildlife viewing as both a primary and secondary activity. Canadians spent $1.9 billion on fishing and $823.8 million on recreational hunting.

One of the first tasks of the new outdoors caucus that I co-chair with the hon. member for Yukon will be to ask the environment minister to renew this survey.

In addition to this direct economic impact, in the last 15 years hunters have devoted 14 million volunteer hours or 1,600 years of personal work to habitat conservation. Hunter licence fees brought in almost $600 million to government treasuries, coupled with approximately $600 million spent on equipment, travel, lodging, guides, tourism and other expenditures.

Despite the fees and paperwork created by the useless gun registry each year, approximately 70,000 foreign visitors, mainly Americans, come into Canada with their guns to hunt and sport shoot each year.

The Canadian Sportfishing Industry Association reports that anglers spend a total of $6.7 billion annually to support their outdoor passion. For example, in the year 2000, recreational fishermen spent $970 million on boat equipment alone. According to the most recent industry reports, in Canada eight million people of all ages fish. Let me repeat that: eight million people.

In 2000 Canadian anglers devoted over one million volunteer days to cleaning up waterways and fish habitat. In 1999 Canadians spent $1.3 billion on overnight trips for hunting and angling. That is almost three times the revenue obtained from all the performing arts in Canada, including government grants and private donations.

The Fur Institute of Canada states:

The Fur Trade in Canada contributes approximately $800 million to the Canadian GDP... The Fur Trade in Canada is comprised of approximately 60,000 trappers (includes 25,000 Aboriginal)...The first international marketing for Canada's premier [fur] resource began in 1670 with the establishment of the Hudson's Bay Company.

That is what I call a heritage activity.

Hunting, fishing and trapping are indeed important parts of our heritage. They deserve recognition and protection in keeping with their place in history and to the extent possible, given the respective constitutional jurisdictions of the federal, provincial and territorial governments. That is why I commend my colleague, the member for Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, for his years of work in this important heritage preservation and conservation initiative. I had a motion that I was going to put forward to the committee on the subject of the bill so that the report could be issued by the committee, but I cannot get the consent of the mover and some political parties so there is no sense trying to move forward on that.

In summary, we need to recognize our heritage activities. The traditional aspect is important to the development of this country. I would urge all members to support this and carry it forward. One of the key things that we have to remember is that these are the people who are most concerned about preserving and enhancing our environment and making sure that we use our outdoors respectfully.

I am thankful to have been allowed to address this issue. I hope all members will take to heart the remarks that I have made.

[Tina Keeper, Liberal, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy to participate in the second reading debate of the member for Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette's Bill C-222, the heritage, hunting, trapping and fishing protection act.

The bill hopes to recognize that recreational hunting and fishing have played a significant role in shaping Canada's social, cultural and economic heritage and that recreational hunters, trappers and anglers have made important contributions to the understanding of conservation, restoration and management of fish and wildlife resources.

As a member of Parliament who represents a large rural constituency in northern Manitoba, I can assure my hon. colleagues of the importance of hunting, trapping and fishing within our country. These activities are deeply ingrained in our history, heritage and culture. They represent a common economic activity and a pastime during all seasons of the year, and are an economic contributor in my riding.

However, due to the importance with which we as legislators must regard legislation, it is important that we understand whether it is suitable legislation. Referring to hunting and fishing in the context of heritage, it is important that we understand the intent of the bill and the intent and usefulness of the bill are unclear.

The mandate of Canadian Heritage states that it is responsible for national policies and programs that promote Canadian content, foster cultural participation, active citizenship and participation in Canada's civic life, and strengthen connections among Canadians. In the context of Canadian heritage and the department's responsibility to set policies and programs in this area, we have to look at the current jurisdictional issues and structures on fishing and hunting.

I would contend that mainly the conflicts would arise with provinces, but there would also be potential conflicts with aboriginal and treaty rights with first nations, Métis and Inuit throughout Canada. For instance, in my home province of Manitoba there is existing legislation in the area of conservation, hunting and fishing. These include legislation such as the conservation agreements act, the endangered species act, the polar bear protection act and the wildlife act. Given this fact, we must be careful not to intrude on the province's jurisdiction. I know as well that provinces across the country have legislation similar to Manitoba's legislation.

In addition, the proponent of the bill is well-informed in aboriginal and treaty rights which are entrenched in section 35 of Canada's Constitution Act, 1982. Where there has been jurisdictional debate on section 35 for the Métis nation, it was clearly stated in the Supreme Court of Canada's Powley decision in September 2003, a unanimous decision, that the Métis right to hunt is protected by section 35 of the Constitution.

There is uncertainty on the implications of the bill and what it would create for aboriginal peoples. Does the bill potentially challenge treaty and aboriginal rights? In regard to Canadian Heritage's responsibility for policy and programs on this matter, what would it mean? These are merely some of the questions I am sure members and Canadians would ask.

Despite the general spirit and intent of the bill to embrace this important part of our collective heritage, the uncertainties of jurisdictional conflicts draw concern for me. To this end, I understand that since the initial tabling of Bill C-222, the member for Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette realized some of the potential infringements that this bill may have done and he has addressed the matter. In fact, he made a recommendation to the committee that clauses 1, 2 and 3 be replaced with one single clause stating, “That a person has a right to hunt, fish and trap in accordance with the law”.

I join many of my colleagues when I applaud the spirit of the bill, but I would argue that this issue is dealt with through our provincial laws and through section 35 of the Constitution, and as a federal heritage matter, it is not clear in its intent and implication. Therefore, I cannot support this bill.

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

Mr. Speaker, listening to the discussion in the chamber and to all the members of Parliament, I think most of us are in favour of the intent of the bill. The difficulty is to support the purpose of the bill.

I want to thank the member from Dauphin for bringing the bill forward. The hon. member on the Liberal side is missing an important point. Our hunting, fishing and trapping heritage is threatened. Even that protected under the Constitution for aboriginals it is threatened. It is threatened by a society that no longer involves itself in hunting, fishing and trapping.

Quite frankly, not only the aboriginal community needs protection of these rights, the entire community needs protection of these rights. If we do not stand together, we could fall separately.

I really think this is something that is not being considered. I thank the hon. member for bringing forward the bill. It is an important bill. Because of the jurisdictional problems, I will be unable to support the bill, but that is not the point.

The point is this should have been brought forward a long time ago. It is something that we should have a serious conversation about and discussion among the provinces, the federal government, the territories and all the various hunting, fishing and trapping groups in our country. We should move forward in a positive way. If we do not, this part of our heritage will be left behind.

[Myron Thompson, Conservative, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this bill on behalf of our Outdoors Caucus, made up of members of the House from all parties, that has the mission to entrench in law fishing, hunting, trapping and shooting sports as acceptable, traditional, environmentally sustainable outdoor heritage activities with a safety credo and a conservation ethic as our highest priority.

We have 77 members in the caucus, 67 MPs and 10 senators. There are 51 Conservatives, 17 Liberals, 4 NDP members and 5 Bloc members. There are 27 from Ontario, 8 from Quebec, 10 from Alberta, 7 from Saskatchewan, 9 from B.C., 3 from Nova Scotia, 3 from New Brunswick, 5 from Manitoba, 1 from P.E.I., 2 from Newfoundland, 1 from Yukon and 1 from Nunavut.

I want to read an excerpt from a letter to the Outdoors Caucus from Mr. Phil Morlock, chair of the legislative committee of the Canadian Sportfishing Industry Association. He said:

The future health of our industry and related economies is directly tied to the conservation and sustainable wise use of our natural resources, reflecting the fact that the people who fish and hunt donate more volunteer hours and money to the improvement of fish and wildlife habitat than all other groups combined. The very origins of parks, protected areas and natural resource management science can be traced to the efforts of people who came to value wild places through fishing and hunting. These heritage activities are increasingly relevant in today's urban society. People fish and hunt for very profound and personal reasons that reach back across [years and years and years] of human history and continue to bring us together in the outdoors. We come from all ethnic and economic backgrounds, all political views, male and female, young and old. Our outdoor heritage and traditions are not political and should never be politicized.

I encourage all members to ensure that this indeed happens.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, just as we wind up the debate on Bill C-222, I too want to take a moment to recognize and pay tribute to my colleague from Dauphin for his commitment to the issue and for doing his bit, as a member of Parliament, to participate in private members' business and to advance the issues about which he cares. I am not sure if the general public realizes that this is one of the forums we can use as members of Parliament to advance the issues on behalf of constituents or for special causes.

Speaking from experience, I lived in the Yukon Territory for many years and enjoyed hunting. We spoke about caribou earlier. I lived in Dawson City, and the largest caribou herd in the world would walk by once a year. It made the harvesting and hunting of caribou quite easy when they showed up on our doorstep that way. It is part of the tradition, culture and heritage in that part of the world. We should acknowledge it in the same way we acknowledge our cultural diversity and in the same way we recognize biological and scientific diversity as part of the rich, cultural fabric that makes us Canadian.

As far as the Canadian identity goes, observers from other parts of the world identify Canada with our natural cultural heritage associated with the abundance of game, the way we have managed the harvest of that game and the recreation aspect as well of hunting, fishing and trapping.

We know trapping has had a bad rap in recent years. People throw blood on us if we wear a fur coat. In actual fact people who are more knowledgeable--

[Gerald Keddy, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margaret's, NS]

They may try.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

As my colleague from South Shore says, they may try. They may only do it once, if it is to him. As members of Parliament, we should acknowledge that trapping is part of the Canadian culture and heritage too and lends itself to the management of our wildlife resources in an area where there is shrinking habitat.

I support my colleague's bill and I will vote in favour of the bill. I acknowledge and recognize the contribution he has made to the debate today by bringing it forward.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

The sponsor of Bill C-222, hon. member for Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, will have five minutes for his rebuttal.

[Inky Mark, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank all members who have taken the time and interest to speak on behalf of Bill C-222.

What exactly is Bill C-222? As has been mentioned today, it is about the recognition and the protection of Canada's history and our culture, which is made up of hunting, fishing and trapping. More important, it is not about the past or present, it is actually about the future because it is the future we need to think about.

Two concerns were raised, in both the first hour and the second hour of debate, that concerned me. One concern was about the infringement on aboriginal rights. I would just like to say that this would have absolutely no infringement on aboriginal rights because their right to hunt and fish has been written into our Constitution. If anything, the right to hunt and fish by a non-aboriginal community will augment and strengthen the aboriginals' right to hunt and fish.

There is no motive to infringe upon provincial rights, even though we know that the management of wildlife resources is a provincial jurisdiction. We can correct that simply by amending the preamble to ensure it is very clear that these are provincial rights.

I will repeat again, as the member from Churchill stated in the first hour, we will delete all three clauses from the bill so that we have a one clause bill which basically says that all citizens in Canada have a right to hunt, fish and trap in accordance with the law, which means all laws, municipal, provincial and federal.

Unfortunately, there is no protection for these activities as they exist today. The only protection for hunting, fishing and trapping is accorded to the aboriginal community. For instance, if down the road this House passes a cruelty to animal act which says that hunting and fishing is cruel to animals, what would happen? That would be the end of hunting, fishing and trapping.

We understand how important it has been in the past, why we need to continue exercising these heritage activities in the future and how it affects our economy. It is worth at least $10 billion a year. I do not know of anyone in this House who does not know people who take part in hunting, fishing or trapping. Most of us do it on a personal level, as do our families and friends. That is the intent of the bill and I applaud members of this House for recognizing that.

I will close by saying that no bill that comes to this House is perfect on its first try. I know because I have been here almost 10 years. I have babysat many bills through this House. We have a committee structure and we move a bill on to committee. The committee does its work and then the bill comes back to this House.

This bill is long overdue. I thank all members and urge them to support this bill in the best interests of our future children and grandchildren.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

The question is on the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

No.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And five or more members having risen:

Pursuant to Standing Order 93, the recorded division stands deferred until Wednesday, November 8, immediately before the time provided for private members' business.

It being 1:55 p.m., the House stands adjourned until Monday next at 11 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1).

(The House adjourned at 1:55 p.m.)