Debates of Dec. 5th, 2006

Softwood Lumber Products Export Charge Act, 2006

[Dave Batters, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I get a chuckle when listening to the member for Burnaby—New Westminster. It reminds me of the last person standing on the island in the television show Survivor, but he is not going home with any kind of a cheque. He is alone on the island.

The member is probably going to get a chuckle out of my question. Which approach does the member approve of more? Would he prefer the approach of the Minister of International Trade who got a fabulous deal for this country? The minister showed leadership. There is $4.4 billion American coming back to this country. Or would the member prefer the approach of the previous government with endless litigation and absolutely no money coming back to softwood producers?

The member is probably going to go on about what he would prefer that the deal did, but I am going to ask him to pick a pony: the Conservative deal or the Liberal approach.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, both ponies have splints on their legs. I would not bet on either of them.

There was appalling negligence from the Liberal government and then it was actually worse from the Conservatives.

This sellout did not need to happen because the Conservatives and the minister did not understand what they were getting into. It was all political posturing.

This summer we heard from witness after witness after witness that this is a political deal. It is simply there in the hope that the minister can enhance his image. It has nothing to do with saving softwood jobs, nothing to do with maintaining Canada's rights, nothing to do with establishing fair trade, nothing at all. It is simple political posturing.

We are at a situation because of Liberal negligence and Conservative irresponsibility where we actually were able to get through to October 13 when we won in the Court of International Trade. That is what the government should--

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

Resuming debate.

The hon. member for Berthier—Maskinongé.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak on the third reading of Bill C-24, An Act to impose a charge on the export of certain softwood lumber products.

The Bloc Québécois members for Joliette and Sherbrooke have worked on the various committees, and their work has finally led to third reading of this bill in the House. Amendments have been made by the various parties. We, of course, made the decision to support this agreement, unlike the NDP members, whom I respect very much.

Why did we decide to support this agreement? The member for Burnaby—New Westminster has often asked us the question. We always give him more or less the same answer. We analyzed the agreement and consulted our companies and our unions. They too analyzed this agreement, but this long-lasting dispute has had a very big impact on employment in our softwood lumber industry. Caught in a bind, our companies and our unions recommended that the Bloc Québécois approve the agreement.

The Bloc Québécois is a party very close to its base, which is made up of workers, unions, associations and industries. In short it is very close to the people and it defends Quebeckers’ interests. So in the end it made the commitment to these economic stakeholders to support this agreement. These include the Québec Forest Industry Council and the various unions, led by the FTQ.

Of course, with regard to the comments by the Conservative Party—which I will return to a little later— that we will recover $4 billion under this agreement, we must not forget that we nevertheless have lost $1 billion. The member for Burnaby—New Westminster is right to say this. This is not a new additional amount of money for the Canadian softwood lumber industry, but money recovered by our industries, which had paid it in countervailing duties. Actually the industry is getting back part of this money, the $4 billion.

This third reading will bring to a close this long legislative process respecting the softwood lumber agreement. The Standing Committee on International Trade began its study of this agreement last May. The committee held numerous meetings to discuss the agreement, which was signed about July 1 by the Conservative government and the Bush administration. I was in Geneva when this agreement was very hastily signed, thus somewhat surprising all members of the House of Commons.

Finally last September 20, the government introduced Bill C-24. Its purpose is to implement the softwood lumber agreement. In addition to determining the procedures for the repayment of the countervailing and anti-dumping duties to the companies, the bill establishes a system for returning the billion dollars to Washington that the Quebec and Canadian companies have to leave on the table and it authorizes the return of the export charges to the provinces. So we get $4 billion but are leaving $1 billion on the table.

Finally, the legislation determines the barriers that will regulate the softwood lumber trade between Canada and the United States, that is to say, the control system that sets up an export charge and export permits.

It is very strange to see that this control system takes the form of amendments to the Export and Import Permits Act. This act is generally used to control trade in arms and dangerous materials or to limit trade with certain countries under economic or military sanctions. In the current case, though, it is Canadian producers who are hit by the restrictions in the act.

Finally, the agreement provides for a complex combination of export charges and quotas. They are very complex. It took us many hours to understand all the issues. After a careful examination, the government of the Quebec nation—the Government of Quebec—chose option B. The Quebec nation was actually recognized in the House because our hon. colleagues voted in favour of the Conservative motion. As we know and as I discussed with a certain colleague here, they did not vote in favour of the Bloc motion. Still, we are now a nation.

I realize that the export quota procedures are not determined by the act but rather by regulation. However, some questions remain. The Quebec industry is concerned, and rightly so, that the agreement provides for the quotas to be attributed on a monthly basis and that the possibilities of exceeding the monthly quota, in case of a major delivery, are so limited that companies might not be able to honour their contracts or even reach their full annual quota.

Prior to this agreement, there was a quarterly quota, but now it is monthly. Insofar as the regulations are concerned, the Bloc Québécois still thinks that the agreements with the companies are very important in order to enable them to reach at least their possible softwood exports.

It is important to remember that the construction industry is cyclical and that lumber deliveries are therefore likely to vary a great deal from one month to the next. This issue remains unresolved. Let us hope that, within the binational panel, the federal government will try to address the Quebec industry's concerns and relax the monthly export caps. Quebec has high expectations about this.

On April 27, 2006, the Conservative government and the Bush administration announced that they had reached an agreement to settle the softwood lumber dispute. The text of the agreement, which the two countries completed on July 1, 2006 and finally signed on September 12, gave rise to Bill C-24.

It is important to give a bit of background here. Although we had been selling softwood lumber to the United States for decades, major disputes arose in the lumber trade in the 1980s, as the American softwood lumber lobby became increasingly intransigent. In May 2003, at the conclusion of an investigation that international tribunals would subsequently invalidate, the American government accused Canadian producers of receiving subsidies and engaging in dumping.

However, it is important to point out that throughout the dispute, the tribunals ruled overwhelmingly against the United States. Washington was never able to prove that American companies were being harmed. All the companies that went before the tribunals received no support from either the Liberal government at the time or the Conservative government.

As for the American claims that Canadian lumber was subsidized, there again, a NAFTA tribunal handed down a clear ruling that that was not the case.

Throughout this lengthy dispute before the courts, the Bloc Québécois has, since May 2002, repeatedly called for an assistance plan including loan guarantees. How many times did we ask the Liberals at the time, in this House, to support the softwood lumber industry? We asked for loan guarantees for companies, but we received no reply. The government did not support the industry, and companies were left on their own to face the huge American lobby.

We did not help our businesses during this dispute. We are supporting this bill against our better judgment, because we have no choice. The present softwood lumber agreement would not exist if our governments had stepped up to the plate and at least listened to what the Bloc Québécois was proposing for supporting the industry. No. The Liberals and the Conservatives turned a deaf ear, and so today we are losing $1 billion under this bill.

When the Liberals were in power they consistently refused to establish this assistance plan. But since they have been in opposition, they have, curiously, changed their minds. It is hard to understand, but the Liberals are saying something completely different. Today they think that the proposals that the Bloc Québécois made for the first time in 2002 are now necessary. This is hard to grasp and understand. They turned a deaf ear for years, both in relation to the program for older worker assistance—which I will come back to a little later in this speech—and in relation to the assistance plan for the industry, regarding loan guarantees for companies.

Unfortunately for the Quebec and Canadian forestry industries, the federal government’s decision not to take concrete measures to ensure better financial health for our forestry industry will be damaging for them—for the industries in Quebec and the industries in western Canada alike, in British Columbia for example, as my friend from the NDP was saying.

Today, the Liberals must bear a large share of the responsibility and acknowledge that they have caused irreparable harm. The Conservative Party has signed an agreement that we support because there was no support in the first place.

When the Conservative Party was campaigning, it will be recalled, it offered Quebec loan guarantees for companies. And then when it came to power, it did the same thing as the Liberals: it offered no support for those companies. It simply signed an agreement.

Allow me to quote a passage from the Conservative Party platform on this point. I do not know whether my Conservative colleagues remember their election platform, but we on the Bloc Québécois benches paid attention to it.

That platform says: “Provide real help for Canadian workers and businesses coping with illegal American trade actions”.

That is what their election platform said. They presented that to Quebeckers. I repeat: “Provide real help for Canadian workers and businesses coping with illegal American trade actions”.

Power does make people corrupt or blind, it has to be said. I do not really know what to say about this, because the softwood lumber agreement does not really reflect the political direction that was announced to Quebeckers regarding the softwood lumber agreement as we saw it in the election platform.

As I said, the Conservatives wanted to support the industry by giving loan guarantees, but they did not do that; no sooner was the government elected than the promise was forgotten. Quebeckers will remember.

I have said on several occasions that the attitude of the Liberal and Conservative governments left a bad taste in the mouths of some representatives of the forestry industry and forestry workers.

Scarce financial resources, abandonment of the industry by the Liberals and Conservatives, not forgetting the intransigent attitude taken by the Conservative minority government in refusing to listen to and support the interests of our industry when it called for changes to the agreement—all these factors certainly contributed to weakening the industry and ultimately forcing it to accept this agreement.

We accept this agreement because we have no choice. The government has put a gun to our head. Thousands of jobs are being lost. People are at the end of their rope. There is no more money. Companies are closing. The government is not giving us what we need, despite enormous surpluses here in Ottawa. It is not listening to businesses. Businesses are telling us that under the circumstances, they have no choice but to support the agreement.

The Bloc Québécois supports this agreement reluctantly. We are supporting it because, as I have told my committee colleagues many times, Quebec's forest industry and Quebec's worker representatives have asked us to. They have studied the agreement thoroughly. These are lawyers, manufacturers and people working in this sector. Their jobs are at stake. Their export needs are high and they need to start producing more softwood lumber so they can export it. Thousands of jobs depend on that. These people have concluded that it is important for us to support this agreement, and that is why we are supporting it.

Nevertheless, we continue to believe that, since the beginning of the conflict, there should have been a plan in place to help the industry. The Conservative government is wrong in thinking that this agreement will solve all of Quebec and Canada's forest industry problems. Because both the Liberals and the Conservatives failed to support the forest industry, it has been crippled by the softwood lumber dispute. It is now facing an unprecedented structural crisis. A number of Quebec forest industry stakeholders have stated that the government cannot claim that this agreement solves everything. They say the Conservatives are now responsible for taking concrete action to help the industry through this major crisis.

I would like our Conservative colleagues in this House to listen to what we are saying. This agreement will not solve all of our problems, so we are asking for an assistance plan to complement it. The forest industry is in big trouble and needs an assistance plan. We have already lost 7,000 jobs in Quebec. Closures announced by Abitibi Consolidated are just the latest in a string of similar announcements over the past few months.

According to the Quebec Forest Industry Council, no less than 7,000 jobs, as I mentioned, have been temporarily or permanently lost in Quebec since April 2005. That is a significant number. Many jobs have been lost due to this government's failure to act. I would even say that, because Quebec still remains within this federation, we cannot master all our economic development levers. Quebec could have supported the industry on its own, but we are still within this federation. We are still here today, asking for this government's support, which unfortunately, we have not yet been able to obtain for the Quebec forest industry.

The Bloc Québécois is calling for an assistance package that includes an income support program—the infamous POWA—for older workers who lost their jobs because of mass layoffs in this sector, as well as a number of initiatives to help businesses become more competitive by updating their equipment or venturing into secondary or tertiary processing activities. The package includes measures such as faster amortization on production equipment, diversification of lumber markets and special tax treatment for the $4.3 billion in countervailing and antidumping duties that will be paid back.

Since the very beginning of the dispute, the Bloc Québécois has been proposing concrete measures to help workers and businesses in the softwood lumber sector.

Now that the bill has support, and if it is passed by the House, we hope that the Conservative Party will propose a plan—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

The hon. member for Burnaby—New Westminster.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, as usual I very much appreciated the speech by my colleague from Berthier—Maskinongé. I always enjoy his presentations because of his eloquence. However, I do not understand the Bloc's logic because everything he said today is very straightforward and quite legitimate. Clearly, this agreement is not good for the Quebec industry.

He spoke about quotas. This agreement is being so poorly managed by the Minister of International Trade that it is well known that the quotas probably will not be put in place before June 2007. Thus, the Quebec industry will continue to pay penalties. We have lost 2,000 jobs in Quebec and the Government of Quebec has now lost its sovereignty over its forestry policy, an exclusive provincial jurisdiction. Every decision that the Quebec government must make or any change to its forestry policy is subject to the right of veto by the American government, by the Bush administration.

The quotas, which Quebec opted for, cannot be put in place. The Bush administration has a right of veto. In addition, 2,000 jobs have been lost in Quebec—in Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean, Abitibi-Témiscamingue and on the North Shore— since the provisional implementation of the agreement in October.

My question is quite simple because the member has clearly outlined the negative aspects of this agreement. Did the Bloc Québécois consult all the workers who lost their jobs since the provisional implementation of this agreement? If these people were to tell the Bloc that the agreement must be cancelled, would he be willing to vote against the bill at third reading?

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I agree with my colleague on certain aspects, namely the fact that this agreement is far from perfect. There are many grey areas.

However, I have already pointed out certain things to my colleague a number of times and I will point them out again. I believe this subject worries him.

I know his willingness to listen to Canadian and Quebec companies. I am not sure he wants to listen to Quebec companies, but I hope so.

In response to the question of my colleague from the NDP, I would say that if, after reviewing and examining this agreement, the industry, the Quebec Forest Industry Council and the unions had told the Bloc Québécois they did not want this agreement or this bill, we would not have supported it. We are supporting it in the hope of saving what is left of our industries and working relentlessly with the current government to come up with an aid package for the softwood lumber industry.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

The hon. member for Burnaby—New Westminster, with some hesitation.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Mr. Speaker, with or without hesitation, the important thing is that you gave me the floor.

To come back to what my colleague from Berthier—Maskinongé said, the Quebec industry did indeed hold a vote on this agreement last summer. The result was 35 to 12 against the agreement. Then the entire federal government delegation started. Nonetheless, Mr. Chevrette said very clearly in committee that if there were other options, he would be prepared to submit them to the industry for a vote.

On one hand, there are job losses and, on the other hand, the industry was truly pushed to accept the agreement, even though a very large majority of the Canadian and Quebec industry did not back the agreement. Conditional letters were sent and then dropped because the agreement had been changed.

Under all these circumstances, if the Bloc consulted the 2,000 softwood lumber employees who have lost their jobs since the interim implementation of this agreement, and if these people asked the Bloc to vote against the agreement at third reading, would the Bloc members be prepared to vote against the bill to do what the people who lost their jobs asked them to do?

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will answer my colleague again.

As he said, this agreement was supported by the Quebec Forest Industry Council, by the FTQ—Quebec's largest union in the softwood lumber sector—and its members, and by other economic partners in the industry. That is why we are supporting this agreement and why we will support this bill in third reading. If the Quebec industry and FTQ members asked us to withdraw our support for this agreement and this bill, we would do so.

We are working closely with companies and workers in our forest industry. In light of government inaction, I do not think that the industry can afford to wait another two to four years for some other kind of agreement, given recent government inaction. As we all know, since 2002, neither the Liberals nor the Conservatives have done anything. The industry cannot go on waiting. It must move forward.

Forest industry leaders want a plan to help the softwood lumber industry. The industry needs an assistance plan, and we have our fingers crossed that the softwood lumber agreement with the Americans will last a few years.

[Denise Savoie, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the member across the floor is criticizing the government for not providing any loan guarantees that would have helped the industry to hold out. But what more could we have expected with the same fox who is guarding the henhouse doing the negotiating for the hens?

I also have fears, for instance, for businesses in secondary and tertiary processing in British Columbia, because the former CEO of Canfor Corporation negotiated this agreement. Clearly, small businesses in secondary and tertiary processing were not likely his first concern.

I think there is good reason to be wary of this type of free trade agreement, often supported by the Bloc. I wonder what the hon. member thinks about this. As I listened to the minister speak this morning, he basically said, in veiled terms, that the Conservatives concluded a softwood lumber agreement because NAFTA would have been at stake in the minds of Canadians. Canadians might have felt that this agreement was not in Canada's best interests.

We all know that NAFTA leaves the government with its hands tied, because it prevents the government from acting in the interest of the public and allows private businesses to act. I wonder what the hon. member thinks of the comments made by the minister this morning, which seemed to indicate that it was—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

The hon. member for Berthier—Maskinongé has 40 seconds to reply.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will answer my colleague's question quickly.

I believe we must remain vigilant with the Conservative Party and the alliances it is creating with its American friends, and this is true for NAFTA and any other bilateral agreements it might sign with other countries.

Nevertheless, it must be understood that 260 cities and towns in Quebec live off the softwood lumber industry, including 134 that depend on it entirely. We must continue to support and listen to our citizens—

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

Resuming debate.

The hon. member for Windsor West.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege to speak today on Bill C-24.

It is important that we acknowledge the work of the NDP member for Burnaby—New Westminster on this file. He has advocated for many hours to try to get a better deal and improve the current situation.

Sadly, we have not seen the significant changes that would have actually made this a bill that we as New Democrats could support. As well, the bill shows the real weakness of current government policy. As the NDP critic for industry and Canada-U.S. border relations, I can say that this is very significant not only in the context of this particular file, but also in regard to the precedent set by this move.

I want to begin my remarks by noting that the previous Liberal government's administration had been working on the softwood file for a number of years before this deal. The Liberals had not progressed very far, hence we had the workings of the member who is currently the Minister of International Trade, a Liberal at that time and the minister of industry. He started this process before he crossed the floor and he tried to bring a similar deal to the table. It was a deal that I think really spelled out the framework of what we currently have right now, which is really an abominable position to take. It is an outright and complete capitulation of Canadian sovereignty in trade negotiations and it will have long-ranging impacts.

The softwood agreement is also counter to the way that this country has lived up to NAFTA as well as the challenges that we have had in the Canada-U.S. relationship over the years. Despite having a significant series of losses in manufacturing and other types of industry related to the implementation of NAFTA, we have lived up to the agreement. Canada has followed the rules and has done what is right. That has led us to a point right now where our partner, the United States, has determined unilaterally to take a different direction, basically casting that and the agreement out, along with the mechanism process that was supposed to be there for dispute resolution. That is fairly significant.

I want to underline a few things in my comments. We have seen past Liberal governments, as well the current Conservative government, try to profess this myth out there that there is a so-called free trade area or world trade market. They say that if we have open markets and if we compete the hardest, that is all it takes to be victorious, to be champion, and then we will just have to lower corporate taxes to be successful.

That is not the case. In fact, even within our current agreements we have interventions by states and also at the federal level in the United States on a series of industries, which they use to protect employment in manufacturing based industries.

It is important to note that even with an agreement under NAFTA, under which we were supposed to have this dispute resolution, that is where we lost a significant edge in one of the most important and historic manufacturing industries in Canada. It was something that really set the standard for negotiations as a country that matured and was able to increase market share: the Auto Pact.

The Auto Pact is something very near and dear to the hearts of those constituents who live in Windsor-Essex County as well as Oshawa, Oakville and other manufacturing based areas that had new entry access to the American market, based upon a system of fair, principled trade. It was an agreement that was set up to be advantageous not only in terms of our industries here but also to be helpful with the United States in growing the industry at a time when we had world market share very much in our favour.

Something appalling happened during the negotiations. We were promised that the Auto Pact would be fine and would be protected, that nothing was going to take away from what we had. We were going to continue to be on the cutting edge of automotive research, development, advancement and assembly.

We were told that those jobs that every year paid millions of dollars into the coffers of this country were going to continue to be there. Those were good jobs. Through those jobs, we advanced a number of different workplace initiatives by some of the strong, progressive CAW workplace amendments, so that workers were safer and more productive and also received more training.

As well, we expanded the industry so that when there were new products coming forth we would be the ones who would capitalize on that and we would not simply become a dumping zone.

It was promised that the trade agreement would continue to be successful through the new free trade agreement. Later on, the United States challenged it and we lost. What did Canada do? It complied. Canada lived up to the agreement, to what it had signed with its partners. We knew the tremendous damage that it would have on our economy and on working class Canadians, our brothers and sisters who were raising their families, making a decent living, saving for pensions and paying an incredible amount of tax in this country. We were giving up and surrendering that.

Since then, we have witnessed the decline in auto sales, manufacturing and assembly. Canada has gone from fourth to eighth with regard to production and we will continue to slip if we do not have an auto policy.

Something that is ironic in all of this is that Bill C-24 was initially introduced by the Minister of International Trade when he was a Liberal and carried on when he was a Conservative. However, he has never lived up to the much promised auto strategy that he promised the committee and myself in the chamber a number of different times. He did not deliver on that in the recent budget. Not a single initiative whatsoever was moved on that file. He did it for trade and he is doing it with the Korea trade deal, which is another one I will touch on a bit later, but he did not do it for the auto sector.

We gave up this golden opportunity that had flourished in Canada because we believed in the rules and accepted the fate of the rules on this particular industry and our country. This bill is an utter capitulation of the system, the rules of engagement and the terms and conditions because the U.S. did not like the results of those rules, despite the many times we went through court challenges, all the evidence that was presented and the work we did with progressive industry forces in the United States.

I was part of a lobby group that went to Washington in 2003 and met with the Home Builders' Associations and organizations that recognized that the artificial increase of lumber pricing in the United States because of the industry greed on that side was a detriment to many of their citizens because they could not manufacture and produce homes at a level citizens could afford. This artificial increase and denying market access for Canadian products at a competitive level was something that U.S. citizens did not support and wanted changed.

We had a series of different taxation policies that punished Canadian companies. As this process continued, we fought many times in the chamber about how to support the industry through loans and other supports, such as research training, so that at the end of the process we would go back to the successful industry that we had.

It is important to note at this time what is happening in the industry. I have a research paper that was provided to the industry, science and technology committee entitled “Challenges Facing the Canadian Manufacturing Sector: Forestry Products and Furniture Industries. We witnessed a decline in that sector which has lost a lot of really good paying jobs, as well as jobs that have historically been in Canada.

One of the charts, the perfect storm, identifies what has been happening in this industry over a period of time. It mentions the fact that the Canadian dollar has increased over 35% since January 2003 and that its rapid acceleration was due to the natural resource exportation of the oil and gas industry to the United States and other countries. This led to the rapid increase of the Canadian dollar at the expense of other manufacturers. Historically, this has never been faced before. Some would say that the Canadian industry should have been ready but that was impossible to predict in terms of the rapid acceleration and there was no support.

The second thing in the perfect storm was the culmination of the $5 billion of softwood duties paid. The industry faced $5 billion on top of that. Despite having a deal, we will not get all of the money back. What kind of a deal is it when we actually end up having to pay to get out of a deal that will be a bad deal in the end anyway? What kind of nonsense is it when we will be forking over $1 billion? Ironically, most of that money will go to the Bush administration, with no accountability in terms of how it allocates those funds. Other funds will go to subsidize the industry and the competition that we are facing. It will now have a resource to use to subsidize its industry versus our industry.

The third point is that the industry's energy costs have risen by 35%. I have an interesting statistic about pulp and paper and wood furniture products. The total production of pulp and paper products in Canada in 2005 was 5.1% lower than the peak production levels registered in 2000. In 2005, production of paper and paperboard declined by 4.4% and 6.1% respectively compared to the 2004 levels. We are watching it decline. Those three things punish the industry at this time.

What do we do? How do we fix this? We allow the Americans to keep $1 billion of those duties. That does not sound like much of a solution. It does not sound like much of a solution if Canadian citizens are losing out on that resource. It does not sound like much of a solution for the people currently employed in this industry if their foreign based competitors now have the cash resources to undermine their production.

Whether the Americans put the money into further efficiencies, into research and development, toward lowering the prices or to deal with energy costs, whatever it might be, they will now have an advantage. It does not make any sense. It is absolutely offensive that we would sign a deal that we must pay to get out of.

One of the things that I think really sticks in the minds of Canadians right now is this $1 billion and the fact that we could use those funds. We looked at the cuts in the last budget session and at how they have affected Canadian lives. For heaven's sake, if we take the ideology of the government, why would it not want to put another $1 billion on the national debt? I guess it wants to put $1 billion into the pockets of the forestry and lumber producers in the United States and the Bush administration. Is that the government's solution to the issues Canadians are facing today? I do not think so. I think it is alarming.

I must also note that in all of this the Bloc members have not been very successful in negotiating any changes to this bill. They have rationalized the reason why they are supporting it. I understand their pressures and decisions but we should have at least seen a counterpunch on the government for the support that it is receiving. I find that alarming because if we are to have a true building of perspective in this House of Commons we should see something. They could throw them a bone or something that would soften the blow on Canadian workers who are losing their jobs and on the industry itself and the future it faces.

I do want to go through a number of different things here that we are concerned about. One of them is really ironic.

Canadians can see how complicated the bill is and how much information it contains. It is an issue that has taken a number of different years to come through here. At the same time, the committee spent one week going through it for witnesses. How is that even possible, in a modern, functioning democracy, that we could only have one week's worth of witnesses? We have witnesses on a regular basis in our parliamentary committees who spend more time on less settled things. This bill was rammed through the committee stage, denying amendments and debate.

The Canadian public needs to understand that that is not good government. It is about trying to move an embarrassing situation along. Shutting down debate does not make any sense.

We have many friends in the United States and many of them do not support this particular bill because of what it does to our relationships. However, when the Americans actually signed on, through our current trade agreements, they received protectionism clauses.

In some of my earlier remarks I talked about how we lost the auto pact. However, in the actual trade agreement, the Americans have a whole series of protectionism measures for aerospace and bus manufacturing that literally take away the opportunities for Canada to expand these industries. The Americans have this because they decided it was in their national interest. The U.S. government thought enough of those particular industries and the value they added to manufacturing, to the employment base and to the future of the country that it said that free competition did not matter and which country made the best product or which country was the most efficient did not matter, that it would guarantee that the work would only happen in the U.S.

In our own country right now we cannot even decide that for our industry. We would rather capitulate. It does not make any sense. While our competitors are employing strategies, techniques and different types of measures to protect their industries, we cannot even support fairness for our own industries that must compete in that environment.

Another big concern I have is about where this goes. When I look at the bill and the measures in it, I worry about our wood manufacturing, the products, the post-production and having to take down the trees. The whole softwood industry is actually having some manufacturing base.

We only need to look at our oil and gas industries. Despite their billions and billions of dollars in record profits and the fact that they are also receiving subsidies, they put less than 0.8% of their money into research and development. The average national manufacturing industry, in terms of research and development, and other comparable industries invest a modest 4%. That is not good. That is a poor standard on OECD levels and compared with other developed nations. It is not a very good measure but at least it is at 4%.

[Pat Martin, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

It is 500% more.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

The member for Winnipeg Centre said that it was 500% more.

All we do is export the natural resource, which hurts us on a number of different things. It hurts us on innovation. Because we do not do any of the research and development, refining industries are not being developed in Canada, which affects a series of other issues. We see the loss of jobs and the loss of good minds for research and development, who leave this country. We cannot attract the brightest and the best. On top of that, we lose on taxation on the secondary product as well. We allow somebody else to take all that.

I am worried that Bill C-24 will set up the same situation in the softwood industry, that we will just be the net supplier of the resource and that will be all we have to offer. However, I think Canadians believe that we can offer more, that we can be the ones to do the research and development, that we can create finished products of which people can be proud and that we can create jobs, not just in those particular industries, but which also lead to spinoffs. I believe Canadians want to be part of that process. It is not good enough for this country to become only an exporter of natural resources, and Bill C-24 leads us down that path.

In summary, I want to say something that is important to note. The Minister of International Trade is currently selling us out on a Korea deal where it is not fair trade. It worries me that this is the template. If we are giving up the ghost on this issue, what will we see on the Korea trade issue?

I have had meetings with the industry committee and industry staff related to the auto sector and under the Korea trade deal the auto industry is up on the block. We are continuing to trade and develop the trade initiatives that will cost more manufacturing jobs in our country by the setting up of a failed trade deal policy. Bill C-24 is really all about the failure of a government to protect its industry, which is about the natural resources of the men and women in this country who deserve to have these resources used to their advantage, not against them.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I can hear the strain in my NDP colleague's voice but he still made a very good speech despite not feeling well. However, I feel I must correct a couple of statements he made.

He mentioned that the sellout came from a Liberal minister who moved to the other side. That is absolutely not the case. We would not let the sellout happen when the minister was on our side. When he crossed the floor, he created it on that side with the Conservative Party. Clearly, we were not involved and we have opposed this.

He also mentioned that he believed in the minister. I believe the topic was the auto policy or something. I hope he has learned from his mistakes because he cannot believe in that minister. We found that out through a very difficult process.

I am not sure the hon. member heard, but I think he will understand my question. This morning the minister made a comment about the trade relationship between Canada and the United States and how bad it was. However, we know that the trading relationship between Canada and the United States is quite good. Most goods flow barrier free across the border.

However, what we did notice on this side is that the anxiety between the American administration and the trade policy seemed to escalate as the U.S. mid-terms came along. We feel that the American president really forced this deal on the Prime Minister, who fell for it, because of the pressure of the mid-terms coming up and he needed support. The Prime Minister needed a good photo op and he tried to get a deal. It is a bad deal for Canadian softwood. I am just wondering if my colleague in the NDP has an opinion on that.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I disagree with the member with regard to the former minister, who flip-flopped, floor crossed over to the Conservatives, and I do it for this specific reason. The work was already underway and was very well progressing down the pipe.

It is important to note that the minister was a star candidate of the member for LaSalle—Émard, the former prime minister. The Liberals had to bring him in to their caucus. He was seen as one of the brightest. I was shocked when the situation evolved. They brought his work to this chamber. They cannot distance themselves from that. To begin with, he came from that sector. He had worked on the file and plenty questions were asked. Therefore, the member and I will have to agree to disagree on that issue.

He mentioned our trading relationships with the United States and how they had improved. That is not true. Even after the deal has been signed, the U.S. has continued to move unilaterally on a number of different trade barriers. The Minister of International Trade should be well aware of these because he tried to cover one up. That was the bioterrorism act that came into play well after we sold out on this.

The bioterrorism act was the unilateral decision by the United States to impose a new tariff on Canadian travellers, trucks and other types of goods and services entering the United States. The minister's department was notified of that. Despite knowing about it two weeks prior to it going public, he did not even bother to contact the trucking association and other groups and organizations to let them know.

This is very serious. It is another unilateral approach to create the conditions where the Americans have more protectionism outside the definitions of NAFTA. It is a tremendous impact because we will literally have goods and other services that will be affected by a new fee. It has also chased off plant expansion and development in Canada. It is seen now as another barrier for business to go through.

I met with the Export Development Canada group. It is working on a new program to help small and medium size companies cope with these changes. However, this is an additional expense for those companies and the taxpayers. They have to support programs like this. We have to deal with this competitiveness.

The border has not changed for the better. In fact, since the deal has been signed, we have seen the militarization of our border. A series of different projects are emerging. We are going to have drone planes, Black Hawk helicopters, fencing and guard posts. The Department of Homeland has a $36 billion security budget that includes everything from studying the feasibility of a fence between Canada and the United States to adding all this military hardware.

We also have the issue of gunboats on the Great Lakes. It is another indication of that militarization.

Therefore, it has not been improving. In fact, the barriers are increasing. What is really disturbing about this is the unilateral approach the United States continues to take on these matters. With the new administration in the United States, in the House of Representatives and the Senate, we have an increased opportunity to hopefully correct these situations.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak to this very important topic, a topic particularly important to areas of the country like northern Ontario where forestry is such an important part of our economic activity. It is the lifeblood, the heartbeat, the industrial centre of so many of our communities in that wonderful part of the country.

As we look at the devastating situation in which the forest industry finds itself across northern Ontario and the country, many of us have asked ourselves why the government would take us down this road. This deal has no obvious benefits at first look. Those who have analyzed this agreement, those in the forest industry who have a vested interest in this, have said they have some very real concerns about it.

Why is the government so bound and determined to impose a new set of rules on an industry that has served us so well for so many years and has been the bedrock of the Canadian economy for centuries? I believe this is another part of the effort by global forces of the right wing political, economic and private sector movement in our country. Whether we kick or scream about this, it does not really seem to matter. Whether it makes sense financially to the people, the workers, the communities and the tourist industries, it does not seem to matter either. Come hell or high water, we are going down this road.

I believe this is an attempt by the government to have this industry, along with other industrial sectors in our economy, conform with the American approach to doing business. I believe it is an attempt to have industry conform to some of the global realities that we have to play a part in as we try to move forward to create work and provide support for our industries, businesses, workers and communities.

I have looked at this issue quite closely for some time now. I have been in this place for almost three years. I have watched as both the previous government and the Conservative government have struggled with the American heavy-handed approach in trying to bring Canada and its industrial sectors to heel, and I am shocked. I know the previous Liberal government was working very hard to try to find some balance or compromise in this equation. However, once it was turned over to the leadership of the present government, it went from bad to worse. Now we have this deal staring us in the face. Once we pass it through this place, it will become the order of the day, and that is unfortunate.

We have been very creative and intelligent in Canada. We have worked very hard to situate ourselves in the global economy, even in the context of the North American free trade agreement. There was great resistance to and concern with that agreement when it was talked about back in the eighties and nineties. Many of us predicted that it would severely hurt our manufacturing sector. When we look at the numbers today and the jobs we have lost, and are losing, in the manufacturing sector, the chickens really have come home to roost.

Instead of dealing with this in a truly Canadian way, which is to work collectively to put in place laws, rules, a regime, a framework to protect all the interests that need to be considered in the Canadian community, we have simply thrown in the towel and said if we do it like the Americans, then it will be better down the road and we will all benefit.

That has not been our experience. We have worked very hard and have been as efficient as is possible in situating our industry in the country, but we continue to be battered by the forces out there that would have us do business differently.

I only have to look at how the government of the day is now trying to change the way we sell our grain from western Canada on the global market. In a very unique and Canadian way, collectively over a number of years and driven by farmers, we put together the Wheat Board. It has been very successful in ensuring that farmers, who grow and market grain in western Canada, continue to have a viable economy working for them. It has ensured that they continue to make enough money to keep themselves in business so they can pay their bills, have decent standards of living and later can turn their operations over to their children. However, farmers in my community of Sault Ste. Marie have said that this has become more difficult.

Farming has become more difficult because of the pressures brought to bear by what is happening on the global scene. Our farmers have rallied and put their best efforts forward. They have brought their greatest research and information to the table. They have put together organizations and schemes that would protect their interests. Farmers get up early in the morning to do their chores. They go out and plant seeds or look after their animals. At the end of the day, there must be sufficient return on that effort. When farmers invest in their enterprises, they should get a return on that investment. However, that is not the case now in so many of our agricultural sectors.

In my area farmers are looking at walking away, or trying to sell to somebody else, or declaring bankruptcy. This is a terrible state for an industry that is so fundamental and foundational for all of us as a society. If we are not a country that can support an agricultural sector that feeds us, then we are in really big trouble.

We now have a government that wants to take this vehicle, the Wheat Board, and throw it away. Farmers put the Wheat Board in place. They have taken ownership and control of it. They have run it for a number of years and have been successful in that venture.

I know, with some good concern, many of our farmers think this is just the thin edge of the wedge, that once we head down that road, the next thing will be supply management. A lot of our poultry and dairy farmers are concerned that this will be the next—

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. With due respect, the member seems to have confused farmers and the topic of the day. I would ask your direction to get back--

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Royal Galipeau]

I thank the hon. member for his point of order. I know the hon. member for Sault Ste. Marie will limit his comments to Bill C-24.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in this place we have plenty of latitude to connect things and set the context within which we are having these discussions. I do not think that was a point of order. It was actually an attempt to simply stop us from making our arguments. As the government has done in this instance, it has fought back against us as we have tried to protect the interests of our forestry sector.

The point I was making is what the government is doing to the Wheat Board is reflective of its approach to the forestry sector, which is to have it conform to the American way of doing business. At the end of the day our small forestry communities, small forestry enterprises and those who work in the forestry industry are not protected. They have no protection.

Through NAFTA and the numerous other trade agreements that are being signed every day that goes by, the government loses more and more of its ability to protect that which is essential to its own economy, industry and enterprise. I am using the case of what the government is doing to the Wheat Board because in my view it is a lot clearer and in sharper focus than what is happening in the forestry sector. The way this agreement has been rammed down the throats of the industry players, imposed on the provinces and brought to the House as a fait accompli is indicative of the under the surface damage and concern many of us have about the bill as it works its way through this House.

What the Conservative government is doing to the Wheat Board is reflective. It is not just the Wheat Board; it is a number of other cave-ins this country has participated in over a number of years now. When the North American Free Trade Agreement was imposed on us, those of us who opposed it back in those days accepted that. We sat down at the table, read through the documents, came to understand what it meant and how we should work with it. We began to be quite successful in putting together structures and ways of protecting particularly our resources that would give us at least some significant return on our investment and effort.

Alas, even in that when we found ways to do business that were good for Canada and good for Canadian communities, our American neighbours did not like it because we were being too successful. We were competing too successfully with them. Our product was of a quality and at a price that competed very successfully in that market. The Americans began to take us to court. As they took us to court, we fought back. We went to court and we took advantage of those vehicles that were put in place with the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement and the North American Free Trade Agreement to protect our interests.

We made our case and we were successful. Time after time we were found to be right by the courts. We expected that our American neighbours would honour that. We expected that they would be honourable people and would live up to the agreements that we had signed in good faith as we entered into those free trade agreements, but alas, they were not honourable. They were less than honourable. They continued to bring us back before the courts to wait us out until they had a government in this country that was amenable to their interests. In the interests of a good relationship and currying favour with our good friend George W. as the Conservatives would say, the government agreed to this softwood sellout that we see before us today.

Nothing in the softwood agreement is going to be helpful in any meaningful way to the forestry industry in northern Ontario. That industry is struggling so badly these days. Communities have been hit hard by the closing down of paper mills, pulp mills and sawmills. People are having to leave their homes. They are having to sell or walk away from their businesses and move to other parts of the country in order to get work to feed themselves and support their families.

In September the NDP caucus met in Thunder Bay with some of the leaders in the forestry industry in northern Ontario, particularly in northwestern Ontario. The softwood agreement is whacking all of northern Ontario. We met with the political leaders and the mayors of many of the communities in northwestern Ontario when we were in Thunder Bay.

We visited some of the plants that were hanging on by their fingernails at that point in time in northwestern Ontario. They all told us the same thing, that they were in difficulty. It was not connected in any serious way at that time with the work that was going on here driven by the Conservatives on the softwood lumber situation. It was driven by a number of other things that the government should have been putting its mind to. We hope the government will put its mind to those issues when we get this piece of work done, but who knows.

The forestry industry needs leadership. It needs the help of the federal government. The federal government should be there. That is the role of government, to protect those industrial sectors that are so germane and inherent to the good economy of this country.

How does Canada as a country respond to some of the pressure that is being brought to bear around the monetary policy and the level of our dollar? When I spoke with some of the industrial leaders in Sault Ste. Marie they told me that if the government could somehow bring the best minds to the table and work with partners out in the private sector and somehow bring the dollar down to about 80¢ they could all be doing much better.

In northern Ontario it is also a question of the price of energy. As we again respond to the American pressure to conform to the way that they manufacture, produce, distribute and use energy, we should be turning our energy operations over to the private sector. What we find, as we did in Ontario, is when that is done the price of energy goes through the roof. Our industries become non-competitive again because they cannot afford the price of that energy. Our industries in Ontario cannot compete with jurisdictions like Manitoba and Quebec which continue to retain control of their energy enterprises.

We have tried in Ontario under the leadership of Mike Harris and now Dalton McGuinty to turn control of our energy enterprises over to the private sector. More and more we find that we are getting deeper and deeper into a hole and that we cannot compete. We need the federal government to talk to those who have control over those pieces of the puzzle, so that our forestry sector can again be successful and profitable and provide the kind of support that it has provided over the years to those communities and the parts of the country that are dependent on that sector.

The dollar is battering our forestry industry. The price of energy is battering our forestry industry. There is the way that we manage our forests. Access to fibre and the cost of fibre are huge concerns. There are all kinds of concerns in the forestry sector that need to be addressed by government.

The previous Liberal federal government sat down with the forestry industry leadership before the last election. The forestry industry was here in large number with a very effective and energetic lobby. They met with our caucus. I am sure they met with the Conservative caucus and with the Liberal caucus and convinced them that they needed an influx of some dollars in order to upgrade their technology, to invest in new technology, to do some research and development and some training.

We heard the federal government of the day announce that it was going to put billions of dollars on the table and make it flow but, alas, it never happened. It was not there and it is still not there. Our forestry sector is struggling and in some instances has disappeared. Some of the communities have suffered damage that will not be fixed.

Instead of dealing with those very direct issues that the forestry industry was bringing to the table and wanted addressed, the Conservative government moved ahead full force with this new softwood lumber deal. The softwood lumber issue would have, in my view, worked itself out in time through the courts much more to our advantage than this deal is presenting.

How we deal with our forestry sector is critical to northern Ontario, the communities in my area and communities across this country.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, despite the member's comments on this important issue, it is very clear that the industry across Canada supports the softwood lumber agreement. He somehow made a connection between the Wheat Board and the softwood lumber agreement. What he has done is reaffirmed the fact that the NDP is a party of big monopolies and a party opposed to choice in the market.

What was more disturbing was that earlier in committee his party which takes pride in calling itself the New Democratic Party acted incredibly undemocratically by filibustering. In fact, it was the member for Burnaby—New Westminster who filibustered on the softwood lumber agreement, an agreement that Canadians are asking us to pass.

Would the member not agree with me that the actions of his colleague the member for Burnaby—New Westminster clearly were intended to frustrate the will of the House and the committee and were grossly undemocratic?

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Mr. Speaker, in fact we were very proud of the member for Burnaby—New Westminster who stood up to the bullying tactics of the governing party. Some out there in the industry, particularly the Americans, would have us kneel down and bow to their interests. We just did not seem to be able to find any way to bring a clearer understanding of the impact of this terrible deal on our forestry sector.

To go back to the comment the member made that NDP members are somehow enamoured with big monopolies, on the contrary, we believe that as Canadians we bring unique and effective thinking to the table to protect our industry. There are vehicles like the Wheat Board and supply management which, if we are not careful, the government, as it is going to do with the Wheat Board, is going to simply flush down the toilet, the same as it has done with our forestry sector in agreeing to this softwood lumber deal.