Debates of Dec. 6th, 2006

Criminal Code

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is because at the end of the day it is all about doability. We may be in politics but we must be pragmatic. I feel that if we prohibit it, organized crime will take over. If we were to confine it to specific territories, it would still be available but under government institutions and regulated. We would have a better chance of addressing the issue.

I said at the beginning that one of the main problems with this issue is that availability. If a kid or other people like a machine they are playing they can become addicted to it. Therefore, if we confine these machines to a casino, people will have to go there. The experts have been pretty clear in saying that is what helped us to confine the situation.

Again, this is a doable, practical and pragmatic approach that will help us to provide better tools for the experts and the people in the field to confine that problem, which is truly a major problem. If we prohibit it, we will have the same thing happen as what happened with the prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, I will state at the outset that the government will not be supporting Bill S-211 but we want it to be completely understood that we do support and I support the need to reduce the human misery that results from gambling addiction.

However, we do disagree with the bill's approach of stripping the provinces and territories and their residents of their current ability to make local decisions locally.

We all want to end gambling addictions and its attendant economic misery, family hardship, employee theft and suicide. However, there is a very basic choice that Parliament must make, in light of Bill S-211, on the subject and, as we all know, when it comes to federal, provincial and territorial relations it is the delicate subject of decision-making relating to gambling and any other activity.

Will the federal government play big brother and take away the decision-making that the provinces and territories now have under the Criminal Code with respect to provincial government lottery schemes, or will local decision-making be left to the provinces and territories? It is as simple and yet as complex as that.

The general scheme in the gambling provisions of the Criminal Code is to prohibit all forms of gambling except those that are specifically permitted by the code. In 1969, Parliament expanded the legalized gambling provisions of the Criminal Code. A parliamentary joint committee had examined this topic, along with others, in the mid-1950s and recommended some expansion of legalized gambling.

By the time that Parliament was considering gambling amendments to the Criminal Code in the 1960s, some states in the U.S. had already amended their state constitutions, in some cases, in order to legalize a state lottery that could benefit the state economically. When Parliament amended the Criminal Code in 1969 to expand the forms of legalized gambling alongside the recommendations from joint committee reports of the 1950s, Canadian legislators of the day added permission for the provincial and federal governments to conduct a lottery scheme and permission for provincial government to license certain lottery schemes.

Later, in a 1976 federal-provincial-territorial agreement, Canada agreed not to use its permission to conduct a federal lottery scheme and the provinces agreed to make an annual payment to Canada that now amounts, in current dollars, to some $60 million.

In 1983, Parliament enacted permission for the federal government to conduct pool betting operations and provinces went to court arguing that these looked very much like lottery schemes that the federal government in 1976 had agreed not to pursue. The federal government, for its part, commenced litigation against certain provinces for operating schemes that it saw as illegal pool betting operations.

The litigation was resolved in 1985 with a new federal-provincial-territorial agreement that required the federal government to use its best efforts to place a bill before Parliament to remove from the Criminal Code the permission for the federal government to operate a lottery scheme. The provinces and territories agreed to pay to Canada $100 million to be used for the 1988 Calgary Olympics.

In 1985, a bill was tabled and passed that removed the permission in the Criminal Code for the federal government to operate a lottery scheme. It also clarified that a province or territory could itself operate a lottery scheme on or through a slot machine and a video lottery terminal, or VLT, a form of a slot machine, but a province or territory could no license to others to operate a lottery scheme on or through a slot machine.

The speed of play, games and internal computerization is essentially the same for what we traditionally think of as slot machines, which pay out by coin, and what we think of as VLTs, which pay out by a printout. Also, both traditional slot machines and VLTs meet the definition of a slot machine in subsection 198(3) of the Criminal Code:

...“slot machine” means any automatic machine or slot machine

(a) that is used or intended to be used for any purpose other than vending merchandise or services, or

(b) that is used or intended to be used for the purpose of vending merchandise or services if

(i) the result of one of any number of operations of the machine is a matter of chance or uncertainty to the operator,

(ii) as a result of a given number of successive operations by the operator the machine produces different results, or

(iii) on any operation of the machine it discharges or emits a slug or token, but does not include an automatic machine or slot machine that dispenses as prizes only one or more free games on that machine.

The premise of Bill S-211 is that Parliament should attack the problem of compulsive gambling by disqualifying, through an amendment to the Criminal Code, certain venues as sites for video lottery terminals that are operated by the provincial government.

Whether this would be a good idea or a bad idea is a matter for debate certainly, but what the government is saying is that we should maintain the existing Criminal Code approach that permits a provincial or territorial government to make that decision about where VLTs will be placed, if the province or territory chooses to operate any at all.

Bill S-211 would eliminate the possibility for provinces to place VLTs in locations other than racetracks or casinos. It is not just a matter of saying that Canada will pay any losses by provinces in moving provincial government VLTs from bars to racetracks and casinos. Clearly, this would affect federal-provincial-territorial relations even with provinces and territories that, to date, have chosen not to place VLTs in bars. None of the three territories place VLT terminals in bars and Ontario and British Columbia do not place VLT terminals in bars. Quebec, the Prairie provinces and the Atlantic provinces do place VLTs in bars which, of course, are age controlled premises that by law are not permitted to cater to minors.

Some Prairie provinces have held municipal referenda to remove VLTs from bars. They have respected those votes and removed VLTs from such establishments in those municipalities. A few years ago in New Brunswick there was a provincial referendum on whether to remove video lottery terminals from bars and the decision was to keep them. In fact, some Prairie and Atlantic provinces and Quebec have taken decisions to reduce or cap the number of VLTs that will be placed at bars in the province.

The choice that we have with this bill is to keep the jurisdiction for the video lottery schemes where it is currently with the provinces and territories or to take that back into the federal realm. The government's position is that we will leave that to the provinces and territories, which will allow for local decision making. Ultimately, residents of a province or territory are free to make their provincial or territorial government accountable for its decisions at the polls. Also, there is ample room for public debate on VLTs in the assemblies and legislatures of the provinces and territories.

As I just said, those debates and those referenda in some provinces and in individual municipalities are taking place, they have taken place and they will take place. It is at that level that individuals can have input into their own communities. There is no need for the federal government to change the existing provisions.

While advocates of Bill S-211 would prefer to do one stop shopping here in Parliament rather than to fight the battle in each province that places VLTs in bars, I am convinced that provincial and territorial governments and their residents should be left to determine what is appropriate in their local circumstances.

Therefore, I urge members of this House to vote against Bill S-211 and to leave provinces and territories the ability to make local decisions with respect to where they will place their provincial or territorial VLTs. We may disagree with the decision they take but that is for the province, the territory and, in some cases, the municipalities and their residents to determine.

This is an area that has been handed over to the provinces and we encourage residents to give input to their local province, territory, municipalities when these issues arise. It is the government's position to leave that local decision-making at the local level.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate Senator Lapointe for the battle he has fought, an extremely judicious battle that shows he is a generous man who cares for people. In our work, it is important not to always put institutions first. Sometimes people have to be a priority.

Senator Lapointe is known in Quebec for his brilliant career as an actor. I have watched his performance in the Duplessis series many times—not that I have any admiration for Duplessis, but this show is indeed part of our television anthology.

I also want to commend the hon. member for Bourassa for sponsoring the bill here in this House. The Bloc Québécois very much hopes that the bill will reach second reading, that it will be referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, and that we can manage to reconcile two objectives.

The first objective is to give some tools to those who have a gambling addiction. The location of video lottery terminals, VLTs, is part of the problem.

Our second objective involves respecting jurisdictions. No one can deny that an agreement was reached in 1979 and renewed in 1985, under which the provinces pay $50 million. The federal government said it would withdraw from this jurisdiction. The provinces can therefore take care of it and it is clear that the Bloc Québécois will definitely be quite anxious about matters of respecting jurisdictions. We are trying to find a way to reconcile these two objectives and the appearance of witnesses in committee can certainly allow us to achieve these objectives.

Gambling addiction destroys families, creates major problems, makes individuals miserable, breaks up relationships and causes real harm in communities. The Bloc Québécois wants to see Senator Lapointe's bill as a way of helping people resolve their addiction problems. Of course, more needs to be done and a certain number of issues will have to be taken into consideration during the debate.

First of all, Loto-Québec established the Société des loteries vidéo du Québec in 1993. Quebec then was responsible for making a certain number of terminals available in the province. At present, there are just under 14,000 terminals in Quebec bars, pubs and restaurants. There is an entire licensing and permit system for these terminals.

It is interesting to note that our citizens can go to various licensed establishments to play these 13,870 terminals, which require a permit and are authorized. Of these, only 430 are located at racetracks. Senator Lapointe is right to state that in the majority of cases and for the most part, certainly in the case of video lottery terminals, they are available in places other than racet-courses, casinos and betting theatres.

We must also ask the question because what is of concern to us is that there also must be state controls. We do not wish to return to a system like the one that existed before government licensing of video lotteries. At that time there was the problem of underworld control. I have been provided with statistics on this matter. Prior to 1993, the state had lost control of between 30,000 and 40,000 terminals. Therefore, not only had the government lost control of the resources generated by this underground industry, an industry controlled by organized crime, but it was also prevented from intervening on other fronts. I remember that several years ago Loto-Québec developed a program that would help compulsive gamblers. I could provide some examples in this regard.

Moreover, Loto-Québec, through its subsidiary, the Société des loteries vidéo du Québec, has begun to reduce the number of video lottery terminals. The plan calls for a 31% reduction, over four years, in the number of VLTs in Quebec.

Loto-Québec and the Government of Quebec are already taking a number of measures. It is interesting to note that in Quebec's National Assembly, the minister with responsibility for the video lottery system and the support program for compulsive gamblers is not the Minister of Justice, Mr. Marcoux, but the Minister for Youth Protection and Rehabilitation, a member from Quebec City, Margaret Delisle. She is responsible for it. There is a whole program for compulsive gamblers.

Obviously, this should not prevent us from taking action of our own, in line with Senator Lapointe's proposal. But our jurisdictional concerns must be addressed, and we need guarantees that provincial jurisdictions will be respected, because we would not want to set any precedents.

We sympathize with what the senators have done. Of course, we think the Senate should be elected. I do not know whether, in a sovereign Quebec, there will be an upper chamber. That will be debated in due course. But one thing is certain. If, tomorrow morning, for example—

[An hon. member]

Oh, oh!

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I have attracted the attention of the member for Bourassa. I do not know whether he wants to reply.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I thought it was another parody of Mr. Boisclair.

[Real Ménard]

Mr. Boisclair is a great leader. The member for Bourassa and I have witnessed victories and defeats in leadership contests. That is a fact.

On a more serious note, what I wanted to say is that if, tomorrow morning, a senator were to stand up in the other place and propose changes in education, for example, in the curriculum of school boards and schools, that might be a good idea. If a senator were to stand up in the Senate and say that Canadian history should be a mandatory subject, we would no doubt approve. But I am not convinced that we would agree that that initiative should come from the federal government.

So we support Senator Lapointe's bill. We hope that the bill will pass second reading. We will vote for it at second reading and we will be looking for an amendment to be introduced in due course, either in committee or during third reading—we will see—to ensure complete respect for Quebec's jurisdiction.

That said, I want to explain that the National Assembly has already passed a certain number of measures relating to gambling addiction. For example, VLTs are located in places off-limits to those under 18. Posters proclaiming that gambling should just be a game are put up in every establishment that has VLTs. Brochures to raise awareness are placed near the machines and messages promoting moderation appear on or near them. There are a number of mechanisms in place to make people aware that excessive gambling is not healthy for the people who do it and is certainly not healthy for families that have to deal with the problem.

This is an important financial issue because, as the member for Bourassa said, gambling brings in $1.3 billion for the government, though not necessarily all of that is profit, which is more like $809 million.

As you can see, there are problems, considerations and financial issues we need to keep in mind. But we cannot make decisions based on those factors alone. The most important consideration is the health of individuals and targeting the harmful nature of problem gambling.

In closing, I would like to congratulate Senator Lapointe once again. I hope that we will be able to hear witnesses in the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. We will see where this issue places in the committee's list of priorities, which is long.

Nevertheless, the Bloc Québécois is fully prepared to cooperate to ensure a diligent study of this bill, which deserves the support of all parliamentarians.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to Bill S-211, which has come to us from the Senate under the authorship of Senator Lapointe and sponsored here by the member for Bourassa.

This bill is attempting, and I think to some degree successfully so, although I have some reservations, to look at a specific problem in the gaming industry. In particular, although it addresses the use of video lottery terminals and slot machines, the major problem we have is with the video lottery terminals, the VLTs. I have been involved in this issue for quite some time. Windsor, my home riding, had the first casino in Ontario. In fact I sat on the first provincial board in the province back in the early and mid 1990s.

During that period of time it became an issue as to whether the VLTs would be allowed into Ontario. Before I go on with that, I want to take a bit of an issue because I am not sure the major point has been addressed. What happened through the 1980s and into the early 1990s in Canada was that the federal government, by way of legislation in the House and agreements with the provinces, in effect permitted the provinces to move into the gaming industry.

Under the Criminal Code all the gaming in the country in effect is prohibited and is only allowed when there is legislation exempting the provinces or other operators from entering into the field. What has happened historically is the federal government has allowed that by way of exemptions from the Criminal Code, a law that goes back 400 or 500 years in common law and legislation, but the provinces do require those exemptions. Those exemptions have been granted.

Coming back to Ontario, as we received those exemptions, the Ontario government of whatever shade on various occasions had to make a determination as to what type of gaming would be allowed in the province. We have seen a similar pattern in a number of other provinces, I think all of the other provinces now.

What Ontario has done, and it will have no problem with the scheme that is established under this proposed legislation, is exactly what the legislation contemplates which is that it would limit the use of this gaming equipment to casinos. In Ontario it is both casinos that are run directly by the province and in some cases managed privately but owned and operated directly by the province, and then what we call charity casinos that are operated by charities in various locations around the province. In addition Ontario has allowed gaming equipment in the form of slot machines into a number of the race tracks.

It fits exactly into the pattern that is proposed in this legislation, with the exception that when we did the analysis under the NDP government in the early 1990s, we determined that the VLTs were so addictive, from experiences that we had studied in a number of other jurisdictions, that we never allowed them into Ontario. I believe that continues to the present time. They are not allowed in the casinos, they are not allowed at the race tracks and they certainly were never allowed in the bars, restaurants and other private establishments. That has always been a prohibition in Ontario.

That is not the pattern elsewhere in the country. We know we have a particular problem in at least two of the maritime provinces and I believe one of the prairie provinces, where in fact the use of the VLTs has been permitted by the provincial governments in private enterprises, some in a number of those jurisdictions in corner stores, variety stores, bars and restaurants. We never allowed them in Ontario because of their addictive nature. They are much more addictive than the traditional slot machine, in ratios of 10:1 to 20:1 more addictive.

We have heard all sorts of horror stories. The Senate heard a number of horror stories about people with modest incomes becoming addicted and spending a hundred dollars to several hundreds of dollars a day until they ran out of money. They exhausted all their savings and assets and ultimately bankrupted themselves and other family members. That has been a real pattern with VLTs. This is primarily what Senator Lapointe is trying to address in this bill. It is a laudable experience.

By giving provinces this authority, we have allowed them to become dependent on the revenues that they generate from these machines. An article in October's Walrus magazine detailed how much revenue was derived by private enterprises and provincial governments. They are used to receiving this revenue. In a serious proportion of cases, it is ill-gotten revenue because of the fact that it comes from people who are addicted to these machines, and it should be stopped.

Because this is such an important issue, I will be supporting the bill going to the justice committee, although the last thing the justice committee needs is another bill thanks to the intemperate approach by the Conservative government of sending all kinds of crime bills in patches to it. As we heard from the member for the Bloc, we will look at making amendments to ensure that provincial jurisdiction is protected and that the provinces are on side.

If we take away the right of provinces to have video lottery terminals and slot machines in private enterprises, then at the very least we need to give them time to adjust to that loss of revenue because in some cases it is quite significant. They will need a timeline to move away from their dependency on this revenue. This will be one of the amendments.

Another concern of mine is we may get into a legal constitutional conflict between the federal government and the provinces based on the legislation we passed previously, allowing them to get into this industry. This will have to be addressed. I assume the Senate has addressed this to some degree, but I will be looking for a review on this to see if we are not crossing a constitutional boundary and going in a direction we should not be going.

I can safely say that this is a crisis, especially with regard to VLTs. It should be addressed. It may ultimately be more appropriate that it be addressed at the provincial level, so it may not be possible to support the legislation at third reading, but we have a responsibility to investigate this.

I will be supporting it. It will be a free vote in my party. Hopefully, with the support of the House, the bill will go to justice committee where we can conduct an investigation to determine whether amendments can be made that will bring it into line with the needs of the provinces.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak in the debate on a bill that promotes moral principles based on human dignity. I am talking about Bill S-211, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (lottery schemes). I want to thank Senator Lapointe, who is the sponsor of this bill. His courage, his determination and his perseverance have enabled him to overcome the many obstacles in his path.

This bill amends a provision in the Criminal Code on lotteries. This amendment to the Criminal Code would limit the location of video lottery terminals to race-courses, casinos and betting theatres.

The objective is to remove VLTs from bars and restaurants. Let us be clear: the goal is not to ban VLTs, but to limit their location to casinos, race-courses and betting theatres.

According to a study by the program The Fifth Estate, in 2004 there were 38,652 video lottery terminals in 8,309 different locations in Canada. When the bill is passed and comes into effect over a period of three years, there will be no more than 206 locations in Canada where a person could gamble at a VLT.

Some of my hon. colleagues will raise the spectre of sharing jurisdictions between the federal and provincial governments. This debate is on a highly serious social issue that affects the entire Canadian population where VLTs are found. It is in Quebec where we find the greatest number of these machines. Although the government has cut the number of these machines, there are still too many of them and we would be burying our heads in the sand if we avoided talking about it because this issue might upset the provinces.

Bill S-211 is not the first bill to amend the Criminal Code on the matter of lotteries. A similar bill was introduced in 2004: Bill S-6. On April 21, 2004, during the proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs for consideration of Bill S-6, a brief presentation had been prepared on the issue to provide some background on the federal government's responsibility. It said:

The lottery scheme provisions in section 207 express the current federal government policy. Provincial and territorial governments are free to make local decisions regarding the kinds of lottery or gaming schemes that they may conduct or license within the limits set by the Criminal Code.

Senator Joyal even added:

The federal government could amend the Criminal Code and decide there will be no more gambling in Canada, period. We would have the capacity as a Parliament to do that.

At present, the Criminal Code authorizes the provinces to issue licences to operate video lottery terminals. There is no doubt that passing Bill S-211 could have a considerable impact on the provinces. In fact, provincial authorities reap astronomical profits from their video lotteries, to the extent that Canadians would be right to wonder if the provinces themselves have not become dependent on this revenue.

Where does this revenue for the provinces come from? A large majority of it comes from the money that people insert and lose in these machines. This is money that is therefore not circulating in our local economies, in our regional businesses. Aside from the royalties paid to the lessors of the machines, these considerable sums go directly into the coffers of the provincial governments, but at what price?

How many families have been direct or indirect victims of video lottery terminals? How do these families absorb the terrible losses caused by this type of gambling? How many children are underfed, poorly clothed and do not have proper housing because of such losses from the family income?

After Bill S-211 was tabled, the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs presented a report with an annex including a number of observations. I would like to draw the attention of the House to the following observation.

Revenues to provinces and private enterprise, of course, represent losses to individuals. For some people, their losses do no harm. For others, however, there can be the serious social costs mentioned above, costs that are only minimally addressed by provincial programs for problem gamblers.

Thus, it may be said that provincial revenues from VLTs are a double edged-sword: the revenues are welcome, but the social costs for individual problem gamblers and their families may reverberate for years to come. Indeed, your Committee received testimony about studies estimating that the social cost of video lotteries is three to five times higher than the revenue they bring in.

Several witnesses appeared before this committee. According to the testimony, video lottery terminals, and I quote:

—are often placed in bars in lower-income neighbourhoods. Their accessibility thus encourages people who might not otherwise be exposed to gambling to start, and because of their location, individuals with meagre resources often suffer the most. Studies also tend to show that problem gamblers prefer electronic forms of gambling. For all of these reasons, a number of experts in gambling behaviour single out VLTs as posing particular problems for individuals and communities.

This form of gambling is highly addictive and youth are often the most vulnerable.

It is interesting to note the position of those who work in the hotel and restaurant industry, as indicated in this same Senate report:

The Association of Restaurant and Hotel Workers of Quebec supported the Bill...the Association reported that in a recent representative survey in the Montreal area of workers in bars where there were VLTs, 90% of the workers supported removal of the machines from bars. Another survey found that 70% had the same view. The Association also noted that the proximity to VLTs had a negative impact on some of the staff’s own gambling, and also led to significant stress when employees had to deal with distraught players.

Furthermore, a survey by Canada West Foundation reported that:

—of the 2,200 Canadians consulted, 70% agreed with the statement that video lottery terminals should be limited to casinos and racetracks, with one half of the respondents in strong agreement.

This bill has come to us from the Senate under the authorship of Senator Lapointe, a senator who has won the respect and admiration of Quebeckers and Canadians. This bill strikes at the heart of a major social problem: video lottery terminals. This bill would not prohibit VLTs; rather, it would restrict them to specific locations. Gambling is still legal, but it needs to be better controlled. We are particularly concerned about the accessibility of slot machines, which are often located in poor neighbourhoods.

Earlier, I was talking about young children and families who suffer because of gamblers' bad habits. For most of the people who engage in this type of gambling, it is very like a drug. Once they start playing VLTs or slot machines, it is just like a drug. People go back to it again and again and develop an addiction. Sadly, I have seen people lose entire paycheques to these machines.

In closing, I would like to ask all of my colleagues in this House to vote for Bill S-211 and to send this important issue to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to clarify its scope so we can achieve the expected result.

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

The time provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the order paper.

The House resumed consideration of the motion.

Marriage

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

At the time we started private members' business, the hon. Minister of Public Safety had three and a half minutes left for questions and comments. The hon. member for West Nova.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the minister in his comments made a lot of the free vote and chastised other parties for not having very many free votes.

However, I remember when this was before the House in bill form--which is what a responsible government does, bring forward bills--and not too many on his side voted their conscience. I know that the member for South Shore—St. Margaret's did and I do not see him on the cabinet benches. Another member did and was chased out of the party. Since I have been in the House and since that party has been in government, I have not seen too many free votes.

I think we remember that last week one member of cabinet could not vote with the government on a motion, not even a bill but a motion, and had to resign from cabinet. It seems that for every bill that has come to the House, all the Conservatives have voted the same way.

Perhaps the minister can explain it to us. Are they whipped bills or is it that everybody thinks exactly the same way on that side of the House? If they do, I would go back to Senator Benson, who said that when two people think exactly the same way, only one is doing the thinking.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Minister of Public Safety]

First, Mr. Speaker, I would amend that last proposition; I do not think it is even a corollary. I have seen cases where two people have thought the same way on one issue and they have both been wrong, so neither of them were thinking. That can happen also.

I am talking about this particular motion before us. I am talking about the definition of marriage. I am talking about the fact that I think all of us would agree that in terms of a cultural and social change this is the most significant one we have ever seen in our lifetime.

On a matter of such great import, the Prime Minister quite rightly recognized that this is an area that can affect people's consciences and religious beliefs and can affect people who do not claim to be people of faith but who still have some very strongly held views about this. It is such a huge change, with implications which we cannot even fully comprehend yet, that it should be a free vote. That is what I am talking about, not a host of other votes on other issues. I am talking about this key issue.

As for the fact that a former federal leader would have kicked somebody out of his cabinet on that particular issue when the man just wanted to say that he believed in defining marriage as between a man and a woman, we have people in our cabinet who have taken a different view from the Prime Minister on this. We will see that manifested, I am sure, when the vote comes.

The fact of the matter is that our Prime Minister believes in democracy and is allowing a free vote on this. The new leader of the Liberals came out very strongly and said he was not going to allow a free vote. He appears to be a man who is able to listen to reason. He changed his mind on that just recently and I am pleased at that.

As I have already said, the leader of the NDP stripped a caucus member of her responsibilities. He said that he was glad she was staying silent when she wanted to speak. As well, the leader of the Bloc is not letting people vote freely on this.

Those are just the facts of the matter. I think it is a travesty of democracy on such an important issue. It should be noted that on this particular issue there is no monolithic view in any one particular community. In the heterosexual community, there are those who think the definition of marriage should be retained as between a man and a woman, but there are also others in the heterosexual community who do not think that.

In the homosexual community, there are those who think the marriage definition should be changed, but there are others, some of whom have lobbied me, who say that we should not change the definition of marriage--

[The Acting Speaker, Conservative, Andrew Scheer]

Resuming debate. I apologize to the Minister of Public Safety, but we do have to keep moving. The hon. member for Etobicoke—Lakeshore.

[Michael Ignatieff, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise here today to speak out against this motion. A significant number of Canadians have enjoyed the right to same sex marriage. However, if a bill were to result from this motion, the legality of their marriage would be based on whether it occurred before or after the arrival of the Conservative government. This would create a serious inequality between two equivalent categories of Canadians. If a bill were to follow, an additional inequality would arise between heterosexual couples and same sex couples, namely, the right to describe themselves as married.

I went into politics to reduce the number of inequalities between Canadians, not to increase them. For this reason, I will vote against this motion.

I do want to address some of the issues raised by my right hon. colleague across the way and not preach to the converted. He has urged us to address each other in a civil manner and I certainly want to do that.

Let me address some of the arguments made by those who are in favour of the motion.

There has always been this contention: why can gay couples not be satisfied with equality of rights under civil unions? Just leave us, us heterosexuals, the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman, people say, and we will allow them the civil equality of civil unions.

The point very simply is that equality of civil unions and equality in civil unions withholds the right to call oneself “married”, and that right to call oneself a married person is of intense importance in terms of respect.

Respect seems to me to be what is fundamental here.

We care about equality of marriage rights because we care about equality of respect and because we believe we want to confer equality of respect on all our fellow citizens, some of whom are our neighbours, our friends and our colleagues. I cannot see how we confer equality of respect to our fellow citizens unless we accord them full equality of marriage rights.

I think the second question that then follows, and it follows directly from the comments made by my right hon. colleague, is that if we are according respect to one side of the debate, should we not accord equal respect to the other side of the debate, to those who believe that the definition of marriage should be restricted to a man and a woman?

I believe emphatically that equality of respect is called for here. I believe that this side of the House and those of us who support full equality rights to marriage for persons of the same sex do not want to withhold respect from the other side of the debate in any shape or form. Moreover, that respect, the basic respect to people we disagree with, is mandated by rights, freedom of expression and freedom of religion, rights which I value I think as much as any other member of the House and certainly I value in exactly the same way that those who disagree with me value them.

But then the question becomes, if both sides of this proposition must be treated with equality and have equality of respect and equality rights, then the difficult question, the core question, is, which rights must prevail? That is the question to which my side of the argument or this side of the argument must give a clear answer.

The proposition we would make is that those demanding equality of marriage rights should prevail because the loss of their claim is a real loss: they cannot call their union a marriage in law. Whereas those who oppose that definition lose nothing: their right to oppose remains intact and their right, the religious right, to withhold the solemnization of marriage is protected.

That is, those religious groups who do not want to solemnize marriages between people of the same sex retain the right to withhold that solemnization. Their rights are respected. The people who lose in a situation in which we withhold full equality of marriage rights to our fellow citizens are gay couples who deeply value the respect that that accords them as Canadian citizens.

My sense of this issue is that we are talking in fact about how to manage disagreement in our society. I think that is a common theme in this discussion. I feel that we have to manage respect by respecting the rights of those who disagree, but we cannot take action which withholds the practising of respect from any groups of citizens in our country. I feel that the attempt to restrict marriage to a man and a woman withholds a fundamental form of human respect and a fundamental human right from a category of our citizens. For that reason, I will vote against it.

I also disagree profoundly with the intentions behind this motion, because instead of uniting Canadians on what I believe is now a settled question for most Canadians, this motion will set one group of Canadians against another. I feel in that sense that it is playing politics. We play politics in this House every day of the week and politics is a very respectable profession, but there is a way of playing politics, and there I am going as far as I can.

We are politicians and we play politics, but there are some things, I would conclude, that should go beyond politics. Among them is the right of all Canadians to full equality, both in rights and in respect. That should, in my judgment, go beyond politics.

I am committed to that proposition above all, I think, that we are in politics to accord full respect to all Canadians regardless of sexual orientation, and that to deny that puts us in a situation where we begin to play politics with rights in a manner that we will come to regret, simply because it brings the process and processes of politics which we practise in this House into disrespect.

Therefore, on those grounds, I will vote against the motion.

[Maurice Vellacott, Conservative, Saskatoon—Wanuskewin, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a sincere question to the member opposite. No doubt he is aware of the fact that in another country, and in fact the country in which the Liberal leader also has citizenship, the country of France no less--he has citizenship here, he has citizenship there--there is what is called a pacte de solidarité. France did not change the meaning of marriage. It did not tamper with that, but it had this other registration that could be done for people in a homosexual relationship and for people in various other relationships as well.

France drew some rather different conclusions and came to a rather different acceptable result, honouring and safeguarding the rights of all French citizens, so I would ask respectfully if the member agrees with that approach, the approach taken by a country that is near and dear to the hearts of many people in this place, a country of which the Liberal leader, the member's colleague, is a citizen as well.

[Michael Ignatieff, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think the question of the citizenship of origin of the leader of this party is not relevant to the question, but I will address the issue raised about pactes de solidarité.

My view of that matter is simple. The claim the gay citizens of our country are making is that they cannot have full entitlement to respect and they cannot consider themselves fully equal citizens of this country unless they have a right to marriage, pure and simple, and that anything that creates a pacte de solidarité or a civil union does not meet the test of full equality and full respect. I accept that claim.

I respect the point being made here, but I think it does not meet the claim. It does not meet the demand of our fellow citizens to equality of respect and equality of rights.

[James Rajotte, Conservative, Edmonton—Leduc, AB]

Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to commend the member opposite for the tone in which he spoke this evening. I think it is very respectful. I certainly appreciate it.

I do want to ask him, though, about some of his arguments. He talked about same sex marriage being a fundamental human right and he talked about fundamental human respect. He wants full equality and full respect, but then he also says that religious communities will have or do have rights, presumably under section 2 of the charter, to not solemnize same sex marriage.

If we take the member's argument about it being a fundamental human right with fundamental human respect, I do not see, if we accept that argument, how religious communities can be assured that it will not be used to override the right of religious faiths to not solemnize same sex marriages.

I would like the member to address that on the human right side. If we follow the logical extension of his argument, I think the concern is that this would in fact override the rights of religious communities to not solemnize same sex marriages.

[Michael Ignatieff, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I have tried to argue on the basis that we have to have clear grounds as to how to balance rights. I am trying to describe a respectful position in which we take very seriously the religious rights of groups who feel they cannot, in accordance with their conscience and in accordance with holy law and in accordance with whatever they choose, solemnize marriage. To the degree that it is a question about my personal opinion, I would stand very strongly against any attempt to coerce or deny that right to a religious group.

As I said in a response to an earlier comment, this is about how Canadian society manages disagreement on ultimate questions. Any serious politics of human rights has to give very clear grounds as to why one set of rights might trump over another. I have tried to say that the equality claims of gay citizens is so important that they must have the right to claim equality in marriage. I am very strongly of the opinion that if that is true, it is extremely important for fellow citizens of an opposing opinion, especially those in religious communities, to be able to withhold solemnization of marriage and that the law should never be used to coerce them.

To the degree that this is a personal opinion, and we are talking about deeply held moral views, it is vital to the civility and harmony of our society that no coercion be exercised against a religious group that as a matter of conscience and religious doctrine does not want to solemnize marriage. In other words, my position is an attempt to find a balance of principles, an equilibrium of principles, that would allow us to manage disagreement in our society in a civil manner.

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Minister of International Cooperation and Minister for la Francophonie and Official Languages]

Mr. Speaker, like a number of my colleagues in this House, I would like to take part in the debate on the following motion:

—That this House call on the government to introduce legislation to restore the traditional definition of marriage without affecting civil unions and while respecting existing same-sex marriages.

Many Canadians must be wondering why it is important to consult this House again on this issue. After all, less than two years ago, this issue was debated and voted on in this House, in the form of Bill C-38, the Civil Marriage Act. At that time, Parliament passed a law defining marriage as follows:

Marriage, for civil purposes, is the lawful union of two persons to the exclusion of all others.

This definition of marriage includes same-sex unions. As I had not yet been elected at that point, I can express my opinion on this issue today.

First, I would like to say a few words about the motion itself. It is important to point out that the motion will not change the definition of marriage. It seeks simply to ask members whether they want to reopen the debate in order to develop a bill to restore the traditional definition of marriage.

The members of this House have two choices when they vote this week on this motion. For those who support the traditional definition of marriage—the union between a man and a woman, which excludes all same-sex couples—the choice is to vote for the motion. For those who believe that the definition of marriage goes beyond the traditional definition and includes same-sex couples, the choice is to respect the existing law on civil marriage and vote against this motion.

I want to respect the current law, which is in line with my personal values and protects the fundamental rights of Canadians.

I am convinced that we do not have to amend this law, because it still respects the traditional definition of marriage.

I, myself, have been married for more than 25 years. I am the mother of three children and I believe that this act in no way undermines the importance of my union and the solidity of my family. I sincerely believe that the Civil Marriage Act continues to enable all heterosexual couples to marry, as they have done for a long time. The current legislation enables same sex couples to benefit from the same right.

The real question that needs to be asked is this: does the government have the moral authority to decide whether two people, a man and a woman, or same sex partners, can be legally united? In my opinion, the answer is clear and simple: two people who want to live together within a civil marriage, regardless of their sexual orientation, must be able to do so without the interference of the State.

I am one of those who firmly believe in the separation of church and state. In my view, one person’s religion must not become another person’s law.

While the debate deals with a motion that was tabled by the government, I want to emphasize that the government has taken no position on this question. Unlike the previous government, all members on this side of the House, including ministers, are free to vote according to their conscience. In that regard, I must severely criticize the Liberal government for having presented that legislation to the House without allowing a truly free vote on such a sensitive issue.

I am proud to belong to a government that believes that matters of personal conviction should be decided by a truly free vote. As a minister in this government, I feel privileged to be able to express my views on this issue and to vote freely on the motion tabled by this same government.

In closing, I congratulate the government for allowing members of this House to express their points of view of in a spirit of mutual respect.

I take this opportunity to inform the House that I do not wish to reopen the debate, that I intend to respect the current legislation on civil marriage and, consequently, I will be voting against this motion.

[Michael Ignatieff, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I was very pleased to hear the moving speech given by my hon. colleague.

Yet, what would she do if her government—the government of which she is a member—were to introduce a motion redefining marriage?

Her remarks seem to suggest that the government is expecting the motion to be defeated. Yet, proposing such a motion implies the prospect of introducing a bill. I would like to know her opinion on the need for such a bill. Based on her speech, she would have to vote against it.

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I repeat once again for my hon. colleague across the floor that this side of the House will address all matters relating to personal convictions through a free vote, which is not the case on the other side of the House and was not the case in the past. These are sensitive issues and I must reiterate that my government allows me to express my opinions and to vote based on my personal conscience.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, the minister is mistaken. A number of votes have been free on this side of the House, on the opposition side. Tomorrow evening's vote will also be free. The vote on Bill C-38 was a free vote. Members could vote as they saw fit. The ministers should vote in solidarity and such has been the case for all the bills proposed by the government during this session, including the highly important motion recognizing Quebeckers as a nation within Canada. Some said this had important ramifications, but did not say what they were. But they did say that it was very important.

Was this a free vote? No. A minister even had to step down over this issue. It is completely in line with parliamentary tradition for the former government to have called for cabinet solidarity when it introduced Bill C-38. That is what this government has been doing since the beginning of the parliamentary session.

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am far from agreeing with what the hon. member just said in this House. On matters of personal conviction, hon. members on this side of the House, including the ministers, can express their views freely, can debate freely and vote freely.

Now, as far as the Quebec nation issue is concerned, I want to remind hon. members that as a Quebecker, I am particularly proud that the members on this side of the House voted in favour of a gesture expressing openness and reconciliation in the interests of national unity. The previous government required and forced its ministers to vote on personal issues. For some of them, and we all know it, this went against their convictions.