House of Commons Hansard #50 of the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was federal.
Tom Lukiwski ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform
Mr. Speaker, pursuant to yesterday's point of order made by the hon. member for Ottawa—Vanier, I am pleased to table the letter requested.
Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I wish to present a petition signed by residents of my riding of Pierrefonds—Dollard concerning the age under which our children have to be protected.
These petitioners are calling upon the Parliament of Canada to raise the age of sexual consent from 14 to 16 years for our young adolescents, to protect them from sexual exploitation by adult predators.
Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 36, I have the pleasure to present to the House a petition regarding physical activity from petitioners in my riding and the surrounding area. They are seeking legislation that will enact that will require gym fees to be tax deductible under the medical expenses tax credit of the Income Tax Act. They believe, quite rightly, that physical activity and people being active leads to a reduction in health costs. I present that to the House for consideration.
Questions on the Order PaperRoutine Proceedings
Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre Saskatchewan
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister for Democratic Reform
Mr. Speaker, I ask that all questions be allowed to stand.
The House resumed from September 20 consideration of the motion that Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Canada Transportation Act and the Railway Safety Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts, be now read the second time and referred to a committee.
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Mr. Speaker, this is the first opportunity I have had to address this House since the tragic death of our friend and colleague Benoît Sauvageau. I would therefore like, on my own behalf and that of the people of my riding, to extend my most sincere condolences to his wife, his children and his entire family. I may not know them very well personally, but I know that they are people of great courage and great value. I hope that they will find the comfort they need as they go through this difficult time. For me, as a newcomer who knew him for too short a time unfortunately, Benoît will remain a model, an example of what a parliamentarian should be. In his work, he always showed respect for others. His strength and determination were exemplary. Benoît, you will remain in my heart and thought for a very long time.
I would now like to talk about Bill C-11, specifically the annoyances caused by railways operating in residential areas. I used the term “annoyances” because, unfortunately, this bill refers only to noise. Other annoyances are caused by railway operations, and I am being extremely polite in using the term “annoyances”. I often talk with people in my riding. When I meet with them, they tell me about the horrors and the problems the railways cause them. They often use much less polite, much cruder and more colourful language, which is certainly not appropriate in this House. This problem causes a great deal of frustration.
This is especially true because railway operations take place largely in the middle of residential areas, many of which are highly populated. That is the case in my riding, especially in Pointe-Saint-Charles, but also in Saint-Henri. There are historical reasons for this, since workers would often live near the railways, marshalling yards and companies that were set up in the area.
Today, in these residential areas, obviously fewer and fewer people are employed by the railways or work at related activities, but residents are still faced with these problems, because railways are sometimes just a few metres from their homes.
We must deal with this problem now. I have divided railway annoyances into three main categories. The first is noise, obviously. Vibrations also pose a problem, but I will come back to that. With regard to noise, it is not difficult to imagine the noise a train makes as it passes by just a few metres away. This noise is even worse on curves. In Pointe-Saint-Charles and Saint-Henri, where large curves run through almost the entire area, the metal always squeals. One of my constituents told me that his dog nearly went crazy every time a train passed by. The dog would jump up and down because the sound was so loud and hard to bear, especially since the dog could likely hear sounds humans cannot hear. That proves how serious a problem this is. People are not talking to us about it on a whim.
But that is not the worst of it. There is also the problem of locomotives accelerating. Companies are always looking to improve their profit margins, so the trains are getting longer and longer and heavier and heavier. Trains now need two or even three locomotives to get them moving, and that makes a deafening noise. Some of my constituents invited me to go see a train start up in Pointe-Saint-Charles, and I have to say that the noise those diesel locomotives make is impressive and astonishing. There are no electric locomotives in my riding.
It is astonishing, and much worse than a train moving at a constant speed. But even that is not the worst of it. The clash of cars as the trains are being hooked up in the marshalling yards is even more deafening.
Nowadays, thanks to innovation, this process is automated, so the cars connect more and more violently, making even more noise. This problem is all the more worrisome because the rail yards are continually switching cars night and day. For people who are trying to sleep, this is a much greater inconvenience than a constant noise, such as a highway or a river.
There are problems. A number of rail yards in Montreal have been closed. As a result, this kind of activity is concentrated in a few spots, which aggravates the issue. Railway companies have even been using lines in the middle of residential neighbourhoods to switch cars. This means the noise problem is affecting these neighbourhoods even more.
We hear the same thing everywhere from the oldest residents of the area, those who have been there the longest. They all tell me that the noise problem is getting worse and that it is nowhere near resolved.
There are problems with noise and with vibrations. This bill does not address these problems. Often, a row of attached houses will act as a wall of sorts and block the noise for people who live in the second or third row in the block. The vibrations, however, are felt through the ground and go much further. We know that this can cause all sorts of problems—particularly problems sleeping, when the house suddenly shakes in the middle of the night. This is the first kind of problem or disturbance I have identified among my constituents.
The second kind of problem has to do with health concerns and hazardous materials. Unfortunately, issues in relation to the transport and especially the storage of such materials are not addressed in this bill. Yet, these are a major concern to my constituents.
More and more trains and tanks of hazardous materials are stored right on the tracks, either on the edge of a residential area or, in some cases, right in the middle of the neighbourhood. This is very worrisome. Perhaps the engineer in me wants to conduct a risk analysis. Personally, if I absolutely had to direct hazardous materials through a residential area—and there were no way around it—I would at least ensure that such materials would spend as little time as possible in a residential area and that they would not be stored for several hours, let alone days, on the edge of such neighbourhoods. Children playing told me that they recognized the skull and crossbones and other symbols that identify toxic and hazardous materials, because they see them on tank cars that are practically parked in their yards. This is quite worrisome.
The third group of problems I have identified relates to maintenance of the land and infrastructures owned by the railway companies in local communities. This is of particular concern because a lot of railway companies regard themselves as being above the law.
They are right, in practice, because they do not have to comply with provincial laws and municipal bylaws. However, it seems to me that as good corporate citizens they should feel a moral obligation to abide by them. That is plainly not the case, however.
Let us take ragweed for example, the plant that gives a lot of people hay fever. In Montreal, all residents are asked to remove ragweed plants growing on their property. And so people make an effort to pull out the four or five or six or even ten plants that they have on their property, while across the street or down the block they see kilometres of rail lines, huge expanses of land, with ragweed reproducing at an unbelievable rate and no one doing anything about it, and the railway companies feeling no need to do their job as a good citizen and eradicate these weeds.
There are also examples where trees and shrubs on the edge of a railway company’s property intrude on the public roadway and impede visibility for drivers and pedestrians. People in the neighbourhood ask the company to do something, but plainly no one can find a way to send an employee out for an hour or two to clean it up and solve the problem.
This lack of concern means that the railway companies do not seem to feel a need to contribute to the local community and make the site where they are operating a pleasant and peaceful place for the public as whole.
I will conclude with another example, which I am familiar with because I lived for several years in the Saint-Henri neighbourhood which the rail line crosses. When I went to catch the Metro every day, I walked under the viaduct. I would always feel a little shiver, because there were holes pretty much all over, indicating that concrete had fallen off. I was always a little afraid that a piece would fall on me. The railway company never felt a need to repair its viaduct, to reinforce it, or paint it, or cover up the graffiti.
These companies clearly feel that they are above the law.
And so, in my riding, I decided to get the public involved, the people who were living in the midst of the problem and were affected by the situation. I had an opportunity to consult with the public, sometimes formally, by holding meetings, but sometimes informally, when I went door to door or took part in various activities. Nearly 100 people gave me their formal support and asked the Conservative government to act, to enact legislation that would have teeth and that could be used to solve the problems I have described. In the course of doing this, I also met with members of the Pro-Pointe group, which works to reduce the nuisances associated with railway operations in Pointe Saint-Charles, hence the name Pro-Pointe. I also met with people outside my riding, residents of Outremont, who are having the same problems. It is quite interesting to note that ultimately, everyone is affected by this. Regardless of social class, whether someone is rich or poor, whether they live in a big house beside a railway or a little apartment near a switching yard, noise is a factor that affects everyone, that wakes everyone up, that assails everyone. It is a problem for the public as a whole.
I also discussed this problem with local elected officials in the district. They stated that they feel powerless because it is impossible for them to resolve the matter and force railway companies to observe certain standards, and also because of the lack of response and conciliation which often are required in such matters. This is the attitude of many railway companies and creates a great deal of frustration.
Many people believe that railway companies are very poor corporate citizens.
I do not know if this holds true for all railway companies. I ask for nothing better than for them to prove me wrong. But that is the general perception. For this reason, people want more than just empty words. They want a more binding law, one that has some teeth. Many believe that it is no longer possible to achieve satisfactory results by taking the traditional and simple approach of asking in good faith that railway companies do their part.
In my opinion, there is important work to be done by the committee. I urge all parliamentarians from every party to respond to our constituents' call to do something to strengthen this law. If we do and if all parties work together to improve this law and to solve these problems, the general view of politicians can only be enhanced. We will have truly helped citizens and, as you know, that is our main reason for being in this place.
What exactly should the committee do to improve this legislation? First, we have to add some muscle. I will read an excerpt from clause 95.1, which contains the main anti-noise provisions, stating:
When constructing or operating a railway, a railway company must not cause unreasonable noise, taking into account:
It is already a rather loose concept. Nonetheless, this is the first point I will make about this issue. As I was saying earlier, there are other annoyances than noise. There is also the problem of vibration, the problem of hazardous materials being stored or present on the ground. We must also include the entire issue of good corporate citizenship, the proper maintenance of the land and infrastructure in the local communities. We must find a way to include all that.
What aspects should be included to determine whether a company is making unreasonable noise? This is what it says in the subsequent clauses:
(a) its obligations under sections 113 and 114, if applicable;
(b) its operational requirements; and
(c) the area where the construction or operation takes place.
I must say, when I consulted the public, this part left them a bit perplexed to say the least. They wondered whether these provisions were for the public's benefit or for the railway companies' benefit.
Paragraph (c) says we must take into account the area where the construction or operation takes place. What conclusions will the Canadian Transportation Agency draw from this? Will it say that if a railway company is operating in a residential area it must be more careful, or will it conclude that if people live near train tracks they should expect to hear more noise, and that under the circumstances it is normal, given where they are located?
The same goes for operational requirements. There could be a potential loophole. From the moment a railway company says there are operational requirements and that it has no choice but to go through these areas in the middle of the night, to make certain manoeuvres or to store its products in a certain location, this would look like a pretext to everyone.
In my opinion, this bill is a step in the right direction. Nonetheless, there is still a lot of work to do in committee. I believe that all parties have the political will and I invite everyone to make their contribution in order to make this bill more effective. Will it cover things other than noise and will it really respond to the concerns of the public who expect us to something about this?
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
Mr. Speaker, I apologize to my colleague from the Bloc Québécois for interrupting his intervention on questions and comments. He will be able to resume in a moment.
There have been discussions and I would like to ask for unanimous consent of the House to revert to Standing Order 32(2) for a brief moment, so that I may on behalf of the government table in the House two copies of Defence Construction Canada's 2005-06 annual report, as well as two copies of Defence Construction Canada's corporate plan summary for 2006-07 to 2010-11, which includes the operating and capital budgets of the 2006-07 budget years. I missed my moment in the Standing Orders. I would ask the House if I could table these now.
The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie
Does the hon. parliamentary secretary have the unanimous consent of the House?
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the testimony of my colleague from Jeanne-Le Ber, as he is living daily with the problems created by railway operations. It is a privilege to have his testimony, since he has been directly confronted with this problem, and in my opinion, that is what makes us most keenly sensitive to the passage of legislation that will improve the situation.
The hon. member for Jeanne-Le Ber has conducted various consultations, for example with the elected municipal officials who are directly concerned, for we know that, in the municipalities, it is the elected officials who are directly called when there are any problems relating to life in society.
Would the city’s municipal officials be interested in coming to testify to their concerns or their desire to make improvements to the bill we will be studying in committee? As a member of the Standing Committee on Transport, I would be interested in hearing these comments directly, and also, when they appear, I would like their presentation to include the component on the urban planning by-laws.
My mother-in-law lives in Montreal close to a railway line, and I am still surprised when a freight train passes and makes her house shake. This very thing will be regulated by the new bill, except that on the other side of the street, some fine residences have now been built even closer to the railway track. How will those people be able to bear the noise when the trains pass, noise that is already intolerable from the other side of that street?
So we see there is an interrelationship with the municipal by-laws on railway operations. Was this matter mentioned during your meetings? Could they offer some clarification when they appear before the Standing Committee on Transport?
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Mr. Speaker, representatives of the City of Montreal are definitely interested. At least, I know that Mr. Dauphin has already met with district representatives to deal specifically with this issue. The representatives and municipal elected officials who have talked to me are all extremely concerned, and I believe I am not wrong in saying that they would be very happy to come and share their views and concerns with the Standing Committee on Transport. I have often sensed the frustration they feel because they lack the legal ability to deal with this issue, make real decisions and impose real restrictions on the railways. Their frustration is palpable.
Like all of us, they have to live with public pressure. They would like to do something and are ready to do something, but they cannot do anything within the current legal framework. I cannot make any promises on their behalf, but I am certain that, within such a framework, they would be glad to meet with the Standing Committee on Transport and share their views on this issue.
Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Mr. Speaker, I commend my colleague from Jeanne-Le Ber on his eloquent speech about what people expect of the railways and of a law that has been a long time coming and that does not seem to measure up to our own expectations.
I would like our hon. colleague to explain that because it lacks standards, this law cannot really contribute to lasting change. I would like him to comment on the fact that a five-member agency is certainly less strong that a government that would include noise, vibration and pollution standards in its law. As well, it would be interesting to hear what my colleague has to say about tax incentives.
Could the government incorporate tax incentives into this law that needs improvement, something that the Canadian Transportation Agency will not be able to do if the government does not give it the opportunity?
Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC
Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for his questions. I will respond first to the second part, on the incentives, whether tax incentives or others.
The government has to consider this question seriously. This week, in the Standing Committee on Finance, a spokesperson for the Canadian Association of Railway Suppliers, answering one of my questions, said that equipment that is not as noisy will be available in a few years. This will allow for the installation of infrastructures to resolve some of the problems we are facing, which I outlined earlier.
To encourage the railway companies to work towards this option, we could consider certain possibilities, such as accelerated depreciation for rolling stock that specifically represents an improvement of the noise situation. I invite the government to seriously consider this option. When we want real results, we have to give ourselves the means to achieve them.
As for regulations, I agree that the principle of refraining from unreasonable noise is rather vague. This seems to me to be handing off the hot potato to another group; we do not really know what this represents, and we do not want to issue an opinion on the subject. We do not know if this group will be as firm as it needs to be. It would be preferable for parliamentarian committee members to establish the standards. That is what is done elsewhere in the world.
The WHO has already proposed certain regulatory avenues on this subject. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, the EPA, has produced many studies on the matter. In France, the 1992 bill, the so-called “Royal” or “noise” bill, constitutes a first enactment representing an effort to standardize and regulate noise. If we did this, we would be sure of getting results, and that would remove the pressure that certain people are under. As parliamentarians, we would set certain rules. We would also ensure that the spirit of the legislation we vote on and the intention we ascribe to it as legislators are confirmed in fact, for we would incorporate the necessary provisions in the legal text.
James Moore Conservative Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam, BC
Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order to ask for unanimous consent to revert to routine proceedings.
The Deputy Speaker NDP Bill Blaikie
Does the hon. parliamentary secretary have unanimous consent to revert to routine proceedings?
Defence Construction CanadaRoutine Proceedings
Port Moody—Westwood—Port Coquitlam B.C.
Conservative
James Moore ConservativeParliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Works and Government Services and Minister for the Pacific Gateway and the Vancouver-Whistler Olympics
Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 32(2), I wish table two copies of Defence Construction Canada's 2005-06 annual report, as well as two copies of Defence Construction Canada's corporate plan summary for 2006-07 to 2010-11 which includes the operating and capital budgets of the 2006-07 budget year.
The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Canada Transportation Act and the Railway Safety Act and to make consequential amendments to other Acts be read the second time and referred to a committee.
Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this bill. As already mentioned, this legislation does address some important issues. However, it is not a transportation strategy and so represents a missed opportunity. Canadians will have to wait a long time to hear about the reduction of greenhouse gases and other matters. I therefore pose the question: where is the national transportation plan?
What we see in this bill is a hodge podge of measures to solve these nonetheless important problems, and I would like to talk about that this morning.
I would like to touch on some issues of concern to my community. The bill presents amendments to the Canada Transportation Act and the Railway Act. A terminal in my community, according to federal authorities, presents some security issues.
Projects having been going on In my riding of Victoria to build a new terminal as an entrance to the city. After 9/11 the federal government intervened and made some requirements to improve security measures. This created financial problems. When the federal government imposes new security measures relating to transportation, it is important that it not just download responsibility but provide funding for the community. We have been waiting for years, through the previous governments and now the present government, to have these issues addressed but they have chosen not to.
It is important to consider transportation security as a whole when considering these entry points and to provide help to cities dealing with this issue. I would like to call upon the government, when dealing with these amendments and looking at security issues, to be attentive to the needs of the community.
I was pleased to see amendments or provisions regarding the railway lines in particular because it has posed problems in my community. Years ago a major federal rail company was discontinued and pieces of the right of way were sold when the community tried to preserve the integrity of the whole right of way as a cycling-pedestrian path. It was with great difficulty that we were able to get back this piece of the right of way that had been sold to the private sector.
The provisions regarding the discontinuance of rail lines becomes very important. This piece of the right of way was sold to a private company and it was left to local government to negotiate beyond what it was able to do financially to get the piece back.
Similarly, reversion rights need to be clarified, which the bill attempts to speak to on pages 24 and 25. However, for years CP Rail, after obtaining a great deal of land from the federal government in the early days of this country in exchange for running a railroad in perpetuity, had slowly become disinterested in running a rail company, not only in Victoria but throughout the Island, and the service became progressively worse. CP allowed the infrastructure to deteriorate and it became difficult for communities up and down the Island to work with CP Rail without much help from the former Liberal government to prevent the rail service from being absolutely discontinued.
Again, it was local government all the way up and down the Island that worked together to ensure that the rail service was not stopped. It is a concern when the federal government is not there to support communities' needs that are well articulated and presented in a thoughtful manner, as was the case in the issue of E&N Rail.
Eventually municipal governments got together and a non-profit foundation agreed to continue the service. This is what is happening right now, but the question of discontinuance or abandonment of rail service becomes crucial in communities that have put in serious investments to continue the rail service.
Here is what I would ask for when the bill goes to committee, if it does. The principle of the bill, as much as it does not include all the norms and the mechanisms that we would like to see in a more complete act, nevertheless does provide a mechanism for communities to talk to the transportation agency about some key issues. Until now there have been few mechanisms to deal with these issues as they come up, whether they be noise or other issues.
I agree with other colleagues who, in talking about the bill, have criticized the absence of any real environmental protection in the bill. Again, not only is there no reference to greenhouse gas emission reductions, but there is no real protection for communities through which rail service runs.
We know that on Vancouver Island there have been cases of spraying of pesticides that have run into salmon-bearing streams, resulting in serious environmental impacts. I think these are issues that should be considered and should be integrated and discussed seriously at the committee level.
Again, talking about the federal government being more present to support communities that want to have a rail service that functions well, where is the infrastructure money? Where has the infrastructure money been and where is it now? This is an area that I would like to see the federal government looking into as it brings the bill to committee.
Finally, there are some issues that I think need to be looked at in more detail. I mentioned the rail right of way that should be serving the communities. One of the issues that has been very important on Vancouver Island and in British Columbia generally has been the rate of accidents that have occurred. As some members may know, BC Rail was privatized two years ago and the rate of accidents has increased considerably. This is something that we are concerned about not only because of the loss of lives that has occurred but also for the environmental impacts of derailments.
This is the last point I want to deal with when the bill goes to committee, if in fact it is supported to go to committee. At the moment, the provisions for transfer of the rail line in the case of abandonment of a rail line or discontinuance simply say that it will go to urban public transit. I think that is too limited. I think it can be used for public transit, but there are other public goods that need to be considered in the case of a rail line being abandoned.
One that should be considered, for example, is the Trans Canada Trail, in which many people have shown a great deal of interest. Certainly on Vancouver Island and in Victoria, bike paths and pedestrian paths should be considered as one of those valid uses. I will be strongly suggesting to my colleagues when the bill is discussed at committee that there be a legal mechanism found to include that use, along with urban transit.
On that, I will take questions.
Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC
Mr. Speaker, I greatly admire my colleague for her commitment to her constituency. What struck me in particular is her last point about abandonment of rail lines.
I would like to ask her if we believe today that abandonment of rail lines is a normal occurrence, or does this happen because of legislation such as this bill that does not want the government to help companies survive.
Since 1990, year by year, there has been an average increase of 2.3% of railway use. One year, the increase recorded was 6.5%. Thus, railway transportation has been kick-started. We cannot imagine that rail lines will be abandoned and sold to make bike paths or for other uses. It is fine to talk about urban lines, but there is another aspect. Some lines will help regional development.
I would like my colleague to elaborate on the fact that, in 2006, we can even think of abandoning railway lines.
Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC
Mr. Speaker, I do believe that our future depends on how governments—this one and the ones to come both at the provincial and federal levels—will be able to help and implement meaningful infrastructure programs to ensure the continued existence of railway lines.
Bicycle paths might be considered. In Europe, however, France, Germany and Switzerland have demonstrated that it is perfectly possible for railway lines as well as bicycle and pedestrian paths to coexist.
It was not my intention to suggest that railway lines should be sold to be converted to something else. I simply wanted to point out that, if, for whatever reason, a line was no longer viable, the best thing to do might be to just sell it. It think that continued operation of railways must be protected, with governments not selling parts of them for purposes of development or other purposes. As the hon. member mentioned, the need for public transportation is recognized and will keep growing.
Peter Stoffer NDP Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS
Mr. Speaker, I cannot help but rise in this House and comment on the great work you have done for your constituency of the great town of Winnipeg with regard to CN Rail over many years.
My colleague brings up a very valid point about her city of Victoria.
In Halifax, of course, we have a large infrastructure for container ships coming in and out of our port. The only way to get most of them out is through one rail line, CN Rail. When the shipping industry wishes to increase ship traffic in and out of the harbour, it of course needs increased rail traffic in order to expedite the railcars in and out of the city, but when that happens people tend to complain about rail noise and everything else.
My question for the member is quite simple. Does she believe that the federal government plans to move ahead in this particular direction? Instead of just operating in a vacuum on its own, it should take into consideration real consultation with the municipalities and the provinces when it comes to enhanced transportation by the railways.
Denise Savoie NDP Victoria, BC
Mr. Speaker, there are two parts to the hon. member's great question. One is that real consultation has so often been missing. We have seen it recently in the way the government has consulted on post-secondary education. The government called it consulting by posting an announcement on the web and not advising the people who are most impacted by the subject, i.e. students. Even some university presidents were not consulted.
I certainly agree that when there are issues such as noise and environmental concerns the federal government needs to be more present in working out these issues with communities. I believe that by withdrawing from so many important areas of social policy, the government is giving the wrong signals about the way it consults.
The hon. member raises another issue, that of noise, and I do believe that is a valid concern. That does not mean eliminating the rail. It means consulting and finding solutions. As I listened to the debate yesterday, I understood that there are mechanisms to really address the noise question.
